1387, An Orthodox Crusade

1387, Orthodoxy to be Defended

Moscow, 1387

The black robed theologian droned on: "So clearly, the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, not the Father and the Son". The Prince of Moscow faked interest, "chicken or the egg" theological arguments were not his specialty. The military map made the argument far more clear:

Lithuania, the last pagan nation in Europe, was about to be christianized by the wrong christians. Norway and Sweden had already accepted Catholicism. Catholics operated amongst the finnic tribes. Would Finno Ugarics further east also accept Catholicism? Filioque arguments aside, too much Catholicism would bring western dominance.

The litany of past offenses against Orthodoxy went on:
-Constantinople pillaged by westerners
- Eastern Christians in the Holy Land forced to pay protection money to crusaders, churches siezed and converted
-Hungary, a nation with eastern potential, poached by Catholics

The Prince strode to the map: "Our Holy and Orthodox crusade starts now". "The light of Orthodoxy will shine in Lithuania and with the Finnics". "May the Father and the Son send.... No!, the Father alone send the Spirit to guide us".

What happens next...

- Can the Russians ensure that Lithuania goes Orthodox?
- Can they bring Finland into the Orthodox fold?
- Will their attempts to do so lead to a continental religous war?
 
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Can/would the Russians try to beat the Catholics into Lithuania? could.
Would they use the perverseness of Western Heretics to inspire the faithful? sure.
Would they call it a Crusade, a term and concept the Orthodox never felt comfortable with, and, to them is associated with the Western attacks ON Orthodoxy? Nope. No way, not going to happen.

No, that opening scene HAS to go. Find some other way to start your scenario (which can likely be made to work), and we'll read it.

Hmmm.... Modern example. A US politician standing up and trying get an attack on Russia using the slogan "Workers of the World Unite!"...

Besides, trying to get a war started by a making a boring policy wonk speech to the person you're trying to convince, be it theological or otherwise, is very counterproductive.
 
I doubt they would call it a crusade, to them crusades are always going to relate back to the sacking of Constantinople
 
I doubt they would call it a crusade, to them crusades are always going to relate back to the sacking of Constantinople

Furthermore, the whole idea of Crusade is foreign to orthodox mind. They considered it even before the Western Christianity think of it, and it was dismissed as loony, dangerous as not really controllable and going against a continuing and maintainable warfare.
 

Philip

Donor
The Prince strode to the map: "Our Holy and Orthodox crusade starts now". "The light of Orthodoxy will shine in Lithuania and with the Finnics".
As others have pointed out, this would not be politically acceptable to the Orthodox

"May the Father and the Son send.... No!, the Father alone send the Spirit to guide us".
This would not be theologically acceptable to the Orthodox. They would view it accepting the same confusion of the Eternal Procession and Temporal Mission of the Spirit that the filioque expresses.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Yeah, the only thing approaching an Orthodox crusade wouldn't come until the reign of Ivan Grozny.

For the Byzantines, there was a lot of talk about recapturing the Holy City and the Fount of Orthodoxy after those nasty Latins took it, and Russians liked to invoke that sort of thing whenever they clashed with the Sultans, but nothing there's only ever been one "Crusade" in the Orthodox world, and it ended in disaster for everybody.
 
1387, In Defense of Orthodoxy and All Russia

that opening scene HAS to go. Find some other way to start your scenario (which can likely be made to work), and we'll read it.


Furthermore, the whole idea of Crusade is foreign to orthodox mind.

Yikes, I forgot about the aversion Orthodox Christians have to the term crusade. The opening scene has been revised a little.

Moscow, 1387

The meeting were emotional and involved all those of rank in Moscow. Military commanders displayed maps marked with advances, political advisors expounded on indications of increasing Catholic encroachment on Holy Mother Russia politically. Only the merchants voiced concern about the increasingly fervent calls for an active defense of Russia and Orthodoxy.

A black robed theologian droned: "So clearly, the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father... The Prince of Moscow faked interest, "chicken or the egg" theological arguments were not his specialty. The concerns of the Merchants were to be noted, but neither Russia nor Orthodoxy could be sold for trade opportunities. The military map made the argument far more clear.

Lithuania, the last pagan nation in Europe, was about to be christianized by the wrong christians. Norway and Sweden had already accepted Catholicism. Catholics operated amongst the finnic tribes. Would Finno Ugarics further east also accept Catholicism? Filioque arguments aside, too much Catholicism would bring western dominance. Then, there was the litany of past offenses against Orthodoxy...

The Prince strode to the map: "Now is the time to defend Holy Orthodoxy". If we dont defend her in Lithuania and among the Finnics, we will be forced to defend her in Moscow and Kiev and even in the most Holy Shrine of the Caves", "The light of Orthodoxy will shine in Lithuania and with the Finnics". "

What happens next...

- Can the Russians ensure that Lithuania goes Orthodox?
- Can they bring Finland into the Orthodox fold?
- Will their attempts to do so lead to a continental religous war?
 
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Yikes, I forgot about the aversion Orthodox Christians have to the term crusade. The opening scene has been revised a little.

Moscow, 1387

The meeting were emotional and involved all those of rank in Moscow. Military commanders displayed maps marked with advances, political advisors expounded on indications of increasing Catholic encroachment on Holy Mother Russia politically. Only the merchants voiced concern about the increasingly fervent calls for an active defense of Russia and Orthodoxy.

A black robed theologian droned: "So clearly, the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father... The Prince of Moscow faked interest, "chicken or the egg" theological arguments were not his specialty. The concerns of the Merchants were to be noted, but neither Russia nor Orthodoxy could be sold for trade opportunities. The military map made the argument far more clear.

Lithuania, the last pagan nation in Europe, was about to be christianized by the wrong christians. Norway and Sweden had already accepted Catholicism. Catholics operated amongst the finnic tribes. Would Finno Ugarics further east also accept Catholicism? Filioque arguments aside, too much Catholicism would bring western dominance. Then, there was the litany of past offenses against Orthodoxy...

The Prince strode to the map: "Now is the time to defend Holy Orthodoxy". If we dont defend her in Lithuania and among the Finnics, we will be forced to defend her in Moscow and Kiev and even in the most Holy Shrine of the Caves", "The light of Orthodoxy will shine in Lithuania and with the Finnics". "

What happens next...

- Can the Russians ensure that Lithuania goes Orthodox?
- Can they bring Finland into the Orthodox fold?
- Will their attempts to do so lead to a continental religous war?
OK. That doesn't set off any alarm bells in my head.

I don't THINK the term 'Finnic' would be used.

The Teutonic Knights were pressing in on Lithuania, and they converted to avoid being conquered (partly). Getting the Russians to project force that far would be interesting. One of the advantages the Knights had was that they were monks - they didn't need a support structure that would protect families, children, etc., at least initially. This let them move further and faster than a standard army would.

Another advantage is that they were primarily there to convert the locals, with the opening of the country to German settlement being a nominal side benefit.

The Russian move is going to be more military, visibly conquering, as far as I can see, and they might just need to be careful how overbearing they want to appear.

OTL, the Lithuanians got a pretty good deal out of their conversion, they kept their culture and language to the modern day.

IF you can have the Russians be enough of a threat to 'encourage' them to convert to Orthodoxy, but small enough of one to not be threatening culturally, you might pull this off.

Another problem is that you're going to have to deal with the T.O. OTL, they tried conquering Novgorod (cf. Alexandr Nevski), and were only beaten by sneaky tactics (tricking the knights to drown).

IF the Russians are thin enough on the ground to avoid the cultural threat problem, they're too thin to protect the Lithuanians against the T.O.

So.... not sure, these are just my thoughts.
 
I thought the Russian Princedoms except for Novgorod were more or less under the thumb of the Golden Horde at this time? Do they really have the resources to go on anything similar to a crusade?
 
1387 is barely a few years after Donskoi's epic victory over Khan Mamai in Kulikovo. The Golden Horde itself is weakening after Kulikovo, but Tokhtamysh did sack Moscow as punishment but I still think the Russians have a chance at protecting Lithuania and Finland before the Teutonic Order comes back.
 
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