1098: the year the Almoravids discovered America

Okay, so supposedly the Almoravid ruler Yusuf ibn Tashfin sent an expedition commanded by one Ahmad ibn Umar west, where they discovered the Americas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Co...ies#Claims_regarding_the_Caliphate_of_Cordoba


So let's say Yusuf's successor Ali ibn Yusuf decides to send further expeditions through the foggy ocean to the new lands to explore and possibly conquer. How would the Almoravids have fared against 12th-century native Americans? (They reference "many islands," so I'd assume that is the Caribbean). What effects would this have?
 
Even if they discovered it, with the technology at the time, they wouldn't been able to stake a claim for a long period. It also depends on which coast they landed on. Eitherway, I think it would have ended up like Jamestown in the 1600s and history would have gone on the it originally did.
 
Even if they discovered it, with the technology at the time, they wouldn't been able to stake a claim for a long period. It also depends on which coast they landed on. Eitherway, I think it would have ended up like Jamestown in the 1600s and history would have gone on the it originally did.

One of the various islands in the Caribbean, not sure which one. Would their prospects be better if it were uninhabited, or would that just be worse?

What king of technology would be needed to hold the colony?
 

Glen

Moderator
Yep, too early for regular cross-Atlantic travel, unless one island hops in the far North.
 
see everyone talks about the technology level needed to colonize the americas, but you have to realize that really all you need is a shipping technology capable of braving the open ocean, and maybe a compass. The weapons technology that the almoravids had, given sufficient men, would be capable of holding off stone age level natives, if enough resources were put into the expedition and follow up expeditions. The Almoravids were fighting low iron level natives in africa at the time, and while not always winning, were holding their own. Techonology is really only one factor in the expansion of a civilization, how much resources a civilization is willing to waste on a particular goal and how many outside enemies are pressing on them are the other factors (in other words what other things are drawing resources away from a particular project is the other factor). Muslim civilzations were actually pretty capable mariners, at least as capable as europeans and given the right minds realizing how the world works, they could have done it.
 
The key technology to colonizing the New World imo is ships large enough to transport oxen across the ocean. You're not going to colonize anything for long without draft animals. Just look at what happened to the Viking colony in New Foundland.
 
People have crossed the Atlantic / Pacific in rowboats, reed barges and outrigger canoes. If the North Equatorial Current is found, this is very likely out of Iberia, finding the Caribbean would follow. Many vessels of the day were typically shallow draft and used oars, so they are over crewed which is the main problem in my opinion (food & water supplies) and stability is questionable if hit by tropical storm out of north Africa. Of course such a storm is the most likely explanation for an early discovery of North America. A ship or ships are blown off course end up in the Caribbean, following the currents north looking for a way home the Gulf Stream / North Atlantic Drift is found and with not to much luck would see them end up off Azores and later the North Coast of Iberia; home. Once the area has been found the logical ship to use for follow on voyages is the Cog, a single sail square rigged shallow draft vessel. While tending towards the small (10 - 20 tons or less) some of the larger ones break well over 100 tons. Later on many ships on the transatlantic cargo runs were near 100 tons (a very large cog for the 11th century). Lack of a compass would be a problem but not critical with currents in question.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/Ocean_currents_1943_(borderless).png

So there is no technical limitation preventing regular North Atlantic Cargo runs in the 11th century; very unlikely and depending on a number of low probability events but once those are out of the way exploration could follow. As earlier as 100 years and without a doubt I would say 200 years earlier regular transatlantic voyages would be far more unlikely. You are then in the area of the Carthaginians and Romans finding North America type thoughts. Again possible but the ships of the day are no more suitable and there is far as I know nothing like the Cog to fall back on for regular post discovery voyages.

Once regular voyages are occurring necessity then pushes ship design to larger / multi sail ships.

Michael
 
Is this where the notions of Africans discovering America came from?

Long ago, I read a book by Rush Limbaugh complaining about Afrocentrism (the book was written in the early 1990s) and he was complaining about the "Black Athena" hypothesis and another claim that Africans discovered America centuries before Columbus.

I figured he was harping on something some crank said, but this appears to be more thought-out.
 
Is this where the notions of Africans discovering America came from?

Long ago, I read a book by Rush Limbaugh complaining about Afrocentrism (the book was written in the early 1990s) and he was complaining about the "Black Athena" hypothesis and another claim that Africans discovered America centuries before Columbus.

I figured he was harping on something some crank said, but this appears to be more thought-out.

It's a lot more thought-pout, actually (but very likely still wrong). Both the Almoravids and later the Malians mounted recorded expeditions. What came of them is another question, of course.
 
One of the various islands in the Caribbean, not sure which one. Would their prospects be better if it were uninhabited, or would that just be worse?

What king of technology would be needed to hold the colony?

Technology isn't the main issue here - if you want the Almoravids to create a lasting colony in the New World, then you'll need to give them a good reason to go through the trouble of crossing the Atlantic and establishing a permanent colony on the other side.

And why would the Almoravids (or any other Iberian or Maghrebi Muslim dynasty, for that matter) go through the trouble of colonizing a few sparsely inhabited tropical islands in the Caribean?

There's nothing on those islands that would make them any more special than, say, the Canary Islands or the Azores - which the Iberian and Maghrebi Muslim states never colonized either, I might add.

And another problem you might want to keep in mind, is political instability; the Almoravids lasted only about a century, and they had to deal with the Christian Spanish kingdoms and rebellious Berber tribes throughout their reign.

In other words; the Almoravids simply couldn't afford to spend a lot of resources and manpower on risky and unrewarding projects like colonizing islands on the other side of the Atlantic.

And even if a bunch of Muslim adventurers from the Almoravid state manage to establish a small colony on one of the Caribean islands, then there's a good chance that that colony is lost or abandoned sooner or later, simply because it's far too remote and not nearly rich enough to be worth maintaining or even remembering.
 
Is this where the notions of Africans discovering America came from?

Long ago, I read a book by Rush Limbaugh complaining about Afrocentrism (the book was written in the early 1990s) and he was complaining about the "Black Athena" hypothesis and another claim that Africans discovered America centuries before Columbus.

I figured he was harping on something some crank said, but this appears to be more thought-out.


Well, the Berbers aren't exactly black Africans (no racism intended), but there are many "documented" expeditions west in Al-Andalus, so it's not 100% far-fetched.
 
Well, the Berbers aren't exactly black Africans (no racism intended), but there are many "documented" expeditions west in Al-Andalus, so it's not 100% far-fetched.

I took a look at the Wiki and apparently at least one of those expeditions were to the Canaries. Those are certainly easier to get to than, say, Cuba.
 
I took a look at the Wiki and apparently at least one of those expeditions were to the Canaries. Those are certainly easier to get to than, say, Cuba.

But that expedition also went beyond the Canaries to another place (unless we are thinking about two different expeditions) in addition.
 
I took a look at the Wiki and apparently at least one of those expeditions were to the Canaries. Those are certainly easier to get to than, say, Cuba.

One of the problems we always come up against is that the historical Atlantic has lots of islands in it, including many that never actually existed (there's a whole book by Donald S. Johnson about it called 'Phantom Islands of the Atlantic'). We may well never know where these people ended up. But there is no reason to think they can't have reached America.
 
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