1066: Harold Killed at Stamford Bridge

[SteveW]

Ah, but he's rulling the more arable part of it, with fertile land that he can parcel out to his nobles!

Interesting stuff. And if England is divided in two, that means (if the status quo is maintained), a real linguistic: an English even more influenced by Norman than in our lifetime, and an English in the North which is more Norse. Not two languages, more like the difference between Hamburg German and Schweizerdeutsch.

 

[Andrei]

There's another thought:
Assuming that Northern England is ruled by Harald and Southern England is ruled by the Normans , after Harald's death , a Saxon might become king in the north .
He might invade the south , to drive the Normans out , counting on a Saxon uprising in the south.

IMO Harlod Godwinson involuntarily helped the Normans to conquer England , because he crushed the Norwegians and then got himself killed at Hastings .
He should have waited for reinforcements , instead of exhausting his army with that forced march from York.

 

[larpsidekick]

Harolds death at Stamford Bridge would have led to defeat for the Saxon forces there, due to the personal nature of leadership in the period. However, if the housecarls act as they did at Senlac Hill, and as they were conditioned to do by their society, they would stood and fought to the last, giving the Norweigen forces a battering as they died. This would suggest that Hardrads best tactice would have been to rest in Jorvik, regain strength and challenge William later.

However, Harolds forced march south was not a poor choice - the battlefield on Senlac Hill was an excellent position, and the Normans were bottled up next to the sea. Bar some bad luck - Gurth and Leofwine falling as the Saxon flanks swept forward on retreating Norman / Breton forces, thus checking the Saxon charge - Harold could easily have been victorious. Fighting the Norman forces in a less secure place north of London could well have spelled defeat even for the seasoned campaigner that Hardrada was.

The remaining nobles of England would also have to choose their new king in the witan, and I think that William had the stronger hold - the Confessors court had been a source of 'Normanisation' for England, while Hardrada was following a nebulous claim. This would have put at least the household troops of those nobles on the side of William, even if the fyrd could not be summoned again. This would have resulted in a gentler rule by the conquerer - no harrying of the north etc, and so a more secure Kingdom for William to use as a base against the Kings of France, the Princes of Wales and maybe further afield.

 

[Carlito]

Harolds death at Stamford Bridge would have led to defeat for the Saxon forces there, due to the personal nature of leadership in the period. However, if the housecarls act as they did at Senlac Hill, and as they were conditioned to do by their society, they would stood and fought to the last, giving the Norweigen forces a battering as they died. This would suggest that Hardrads best tactice would have been to rest in Jorvik, regain strength and challenge William later.

.

Hardrada could have easily invited (or threatened) Sweyn II to join him in the plunder of England against William, rather than risk the Dane seeking an incursion into Norway.

The remaining nobles of England would also have to choose their new king in the witan, and I think that William had the stronger hold - the Confessors court had been a source of 'Normanisation' for England, while Hardrada was following a nebulous claim. This would have put at least the household troops of those nobles on the side of William, even if the fyrd could not be summoned again. This would have resulted in a gentler rule by the conquerer - no harrying of the north etc, and so a more secure Kingdom for William to use as a base against the Kings of France, the Princes of Wales and maybe further afield.

But in OTL they did choose Edgar AEtheling, who was quickly elbowed aside by William(yeah I know it was asymbolic gesture by the Anglo-Saxons)

As for Williams claim, is a verbal promise stronger than a bloodline shared with Canute? There is also the resentment that the Anglo-Saxon lords had for the "normanization" under the Confessor to be taken into account. The fact that William had an army comprised of second sons seeking booty would have augered ill for any Anglo-saxon landowner, pretender to the throne or not
(William even turned on those such as Morcar who had sworn him fealty)


Like the Britons before, those Anglo Saxon aristocrats who found themselves unable to reach an equitable arrangement with either of the invaders (they had no reason to believe that Hadrada would be anymore generous or trustworthy than William) could have been pushed to the "celtic fringes"of the British Isles,to become the "thorn in the side" previously aluded to, or maybe even fleeing to exile in Ireland.

 

[Carlito]

Looking ahead, the Scandinavian influence over the north could usher in the Protestant Church much easier than in Tudor times. Greater Norway is catapulted into the major sea power, having seen off the Catholic Armada sent by Rome to invade the heretic island.

 

[Carlito]

Could Conan II of Rennes Duke of Brittany be tempted to join by allying himself with Earl Cadoc of Cornwall?

Conan's death is apparently around 1066 at the age of 26, but he had had to fight off agression against his Duchy from William, so I can't see him siding with William during the invasion.

(I note that Earl Cadoc was apparently deposed by William in 1066 but can't confirm whether this was a result of the Battle at Hastings - Cornish timeline states Williams authority did not reach to the southwest at the time of his coronations)

 

[Carlito]

A lot of the Saxon thanes may have fled into the Danelaw to declare their allegiance to Hardraada. This means that unless he moves North to end this threat swiftly he's leaving himself open for a general uprising.

Not neccesarily

If Haardrada had wiped out the cream of the Anglo-Saxon aristocracy at Stamford Bridge, those automatically inheriting their estates might not be that keen to strike a bargain with their fathers killers

 

[tinfoil]

This might be a topic for a different thread, but what if the timetables for the battles were reversed: William first forces a battle at Hastings (or maybe elsewhere, since Harold would not have had to force-march south from Stamford) against a Saxon army that has not been yet depleted, and then the victor forced to march north to defend against Harald at Stamford (or wherever THAT battle would have been).

Would William have still defeated a larger and better rested Saxon army?
Would the victor of that battle have been able to rush north and successfully beat Harald?

 

[robertp6165]

Assuming that the Saxons still win at Stamford Bridge with someone else in charge , they might win against William as well.
Instead of the forced march ordered by Harold , the Saxons might chose to wait a week or two , rest their soldiers , and wait for the reinforcements to come. Then , they could outnumber William by 2 to 1 , and the Saxons would be more motivated and not tired , as they were in OTL at Hastings.

One significant addition is the Saxon archers, who were left behind by Harold after Stamford Bridge. The presence of these archers at Hastings (or a battle fought later if Hastings is not fought) could be very significant and possibly tip the scales in favor of the Saxons.

 

[Carlito]

Throw this into the mix and see what comes out eh?

1063 Harold Godwinson defeats Grufudd ap Llewelyn, but Llewelyn escapes to the Isle of Man, where he is received as a “guest” of Murchaid mac Diarmait King of Dublin & Man

Thorfinn Sigurdson Earl of Orkney (although he died in 1065 OTL) backs Harald Haadrada’s bit for the English throne, in return for a promise that Haadrada will back his campaign to get Máel Snechtai King of Moray, the whole Scottish throne.Thorfinn wants revenge on the gaelic Irish for doing his dady at Clontarf and needs the Scots nation as an arsenal.

 

[Carlito]

Having fought William to a standstill, peace terms are agreed acknowledging Williams claim to the Anglo saxon lands to the south, but denying him the hereditary Norse lands of the Danelaw, leaving Hardrada free to fulfill his oath to Thorfinn. However, Hardrada whilst outwardly supporting Thorfinn's cause, secretly harbours plans to seize the Scottish throne for himself, having only partially fulfilled his ambition of a kingship on the British Isles.

William, similarly frustrated turns his attention to continental aspirations, namely the Duchy of Brittany. Conan II is thus drawn into an alliance with the Anglo Saxon Duke of Cornwall and the surviving Anglo Saxon lords, launching a pre-emptive strike across the Tamar . This draws the Norman forces away from the newly established Danelaw.

Almost simultaneously Grufudd ap Llewelyn lands at Anglesey with an army provided by Murchaid mac Diarmait ans sets about reuniting Wales