Ah, Dramamine.Yep, the vast majority of the invading troops at D-Day were seasick.
Ah, Dramamine.Yep, the vast majority of the invading troops at D-Day were seasick.
Germans never based large scale invasion plans on ports, they were all based on landing on beaches, using 1/2 the so called river barges to shuttle supplies ashore from the 150 transport merchant ships employed.
But First Sea Lord Pound concluded that the KM could deliver 100-200,000 troops over night in a port to port invasion and RN could not do anything to prevent this.
Churchill accepted this conclusion, which is probably why he didn't share your enthusiasm for the operation.
Britain was teetering on the edge of collapse and the shock of such an action would bring them to crises.
BTW the demand for supply of 300-600 tons per day per division was estimates based on fighting on the Eastern Front mid war. No way the Wallies are anywhere as tough as that in 1940 after the Dunkirk disaster.
In naval clashes of the period - Nazi warships were twice as effective as Wallies.
And if the weather isn't decent they aren't going anywhere anyway.What landed with a bit of a thud in that exhaustive thread helpfully given by Oldironside already, probably around page 25-30 if I remember rightly because it was midway through, was that German plans required up to two days for the convoys to form up on the German-held side of the channel, parts of which would have been in sight from England with the naked eye if the weather was decent.
As the saying goes in the U.K., if you don't like the weather, wait half an hour and you will get something different.
the naval equivalent of trainspotters
There was an Soviet German trade agreement in early 1940.I don't think the Soviets gave credit. Well, exept retroactively when they literally stole Spain's gold reserve, then gave incredibly marked up prices for the few weapons they had sent the Republicans. Anyways, they demanded war material form the Germans, and they apparently had to prioritize the Soviets over their own army.
The Soviets had 18 months to ship 600 million Reichmarks or raw materials to Germany. Nearly all of that was shipped before Barbarossa. The Germans had 27 months to ship 600 million Reichmarks of industrial supplies to the Soviet Union. Germany supplied a fraction of this by Barbarossa.
- No planning what so ever for an invasion of the UK was undertaken prior to the battle of France. Remember what Eisenhower said “Plans are useless, Planning is essential”
The Germans had zero Amphibious legacy and were then expected to undertake the most complicated seaborne invasion in history to date. The British and USA had stacks of experience of such undertakings and still managed to make many mistakes even when landings were uncontested. While I am sure that the Germans would muddle through the first landing even if un-contested is likely to be a real train crash in terms of confusion accidents, navigation errors and heavy delays. Contested it would be a multi train pile up of a train crash.
The Germans had no dedicated Amphibious force and would have to rely upon a collection of ad-hoc and modified vessels – regarding the statement “First Sea Lord Pound concluded that the KM could deliver 100-200,000 troops overnight in a port to port invasion” – pure Fiction – Op Neptune by comparison delivered 156,000 troops on June 6th using over 6000 vessels (most of them specialised) and manned by nearly 200,000 Sailors in an op planned over 2+ years and supported by the largest 2 navy’s (as well as 6 others) and the might of the Wallied Industries.
No Naval Superiority. Even before the Norway campaign the KM could not cover a Cross channel invasion such was the disparity in available forces – post Norway with the losses sustained and damage incurred to much of the remaining surface fleet I believe that they were effectively down to 3 Cruisers and iirc 4 DDs. Granted the RN were stretched but they had the options of moving ships around etc and even had a BB on the south coast.
No Air Superiority. I am sure this does not need to be rehashed here – but the Luftwaffe famously failed to gain air superiority over the RAF during the Battle of Britain. And given how reliant the German Army would be on the Luftwaffe to provide everything from Recon to Air cover to close air support to air dropping supplies etc it would find itself hard pressed to effectively conduct any of those missions during any invasion. I often find that the answer to “How does the Germans overcome issue X” = “Oh the Luftwaffe will do it” – unfortunately for the Sealion planners it cannot be relied upon to do so.
Poor Logistics. The ability to deliver supplies across an open beach particularly the area of coastline from Brighton to Dover, which is almost completely aside from a few small ‘gaps’ shingle backed with cliffs. The “Cinque Ports” (other than Dover and to a lesser extent Folkestone both of which are heavily defended) while a big deal in medieval times are incapable of handling anything larger than the smallest coaster and have very little in the way of cranes and transport network etc so would be incapable of supporting a landing force.
Ground Superiority. Again the Germans do not have the 3:1 plus ratio of attacker to defender necessary vs a peer opponent at the point of battle. Also they would lack Artillery and Armoured support particularly early on. The plan called for 9 Divisions to be landed - I find this laughable given the numbers that the Wallies managed to deliver on D-Day with far far greater capability, equipment, training, experience, legacy and planning.
Defences. The British have been amazingly paranoid about invasions for hundreds of years and many locations on the South Coast have Victorian era Defences improved with more modern Pill boxes, mine fields and wire. Many of the usable Beach areas (Brighton, Eastbourne and Hastings) are backed by heavy regency style buildings forcing any attacker crossing that beach to face some very serious prepared positions and then heavy FIBUA/FISH type combat which is slow and incredibly costly for an attacking force both in terms of Casualties and supplies expended.
The British Army. Now the German Army was good, very good in fact. However the British army was also good perhaps not quite as good in certain areas like combined arms but that’s irrelevant as the Germans first wave is going to be Light infantry with very little in the way of supporting arms including Armour, Artillery, AAA and anti-tank weapons.
If anything I believe that the British seriously overestimated the Ability of Germany to conduct Op Sealion and had the Germans been foolish enough to attempt it – it would have been a disaster – probably before a single shot had been fired.
Plus, what landed with a bit of a thud in that exhaustive thread helpfully given by Oldironside already, probably around page 25-30 if I remember rightly because it was midway through, was that German plans required up to two days for the convoys to form up on the German-held side of the channel, parts of which would have been in sight from England with the naked eye if the weather was decent.
have seen that term "river barges" used repeatedly, to ask a stupid question is that referring to MFP/AFPs or Siebel Ferries or some other actual Rhine barges?
GERMANY 01 January 1940
IN SERVICE: 2 battleships-predreadnoughts, 2 battlecruisers, 5 seaplane tenders, 3 catapult vessels, 4 heavy cruisers, 6 light cruisers, 3
auxiliary cruisers, 22 destroyers, 21 torpedo boats, 55 submarines, 7 corvettes, 4 patrol ships, 140 auxiliary patrol vessels, 30 auxiliary
submarine chasers, 12 auxiliary decoy vessels, 2 gunnery training ships, 1 dispatch vessel, 2 river monitors, 22 motor torpedo boats, 3 motor
anti-submarine boats, 1 river patrol launch, 3 minelayers, 7 auxiliary minelayers, 4 mine transports, 2 river minelaying boats, 31
minesweepers, 67 auxiliary minesweepers, 63 minesweeping boats, 15 auxiliary mine destruction vessels
UNITED KINGDOM 01 January 1940
IN SERVICE: 11 battleships, 3 battlecruisers, 3 monitors, 4 fleet aircraft carriers, 2 light aircraft carriers, 2 seaplane tenders, 13 heavy cruisers, 43 light cruisers, 1
cruiser-minelayer, 41 auxiliary cruisers, 18 destroyer leaders, 160 destroyers, 60 submarines, 34 sloops, 10 patrol ships (corvettes), 12 armed boarding vessels, 38
auxiliary patrol vessels, 7 auxiliary decoy vessels, 1 auxiliary seagoing AA vessel, 1 auxiliary coastal AA vessel, 67 armed yachts, 20 river gunboats, 24 motor torpedo
boats, 21 motor anti-submarine boats, 17 small landing ships, 2 small landing barges, 10 landing crafts, 8 minelayers, 8 auxiliary minelayers, 2 netlayers, 45
minesweepers, 49 auxiliary minesweepers, 1 auxiliary mine destruction vessel, 79 minesweeping trawlers, 576 auxiliary armed trawlers, 6 minesweeping drifters, 58
auxiliary armed drifters, 6 armed whalers, 7 auxiliary armed whalers, 1 minesweeping boat
CAPITAL SHIPS AND MONITORS
Doesn't matter how many divisions there are in the UK if they're short of modern weapons to fight with, and a lot of stuff got left behind on the beaches at Dunkirk...."After the Dunkirk disaster"? Good way to describe having 16 divisions (including 3 armoured) waiting on the British Isles...
Doesn't matter how many divisions there are in the UK if they're short of modern weapons to fight with, and a lot of stuff got left behind on the beaches at Dunkirk.
By the look of the charts I have in volume 2 Churchill's own WW2 memoir (Chapter XIII, 'At Bay'), the equipment levels of rifles across divisions was generally good on the 13th July, 1940, but hopeless for 'field artillery', 'A.T. guns', 'Light M/G', 'M/G carriers', 'A.T. rifles' and 'mortars' for almost all infantry divisions listed except 3rd (although they were short on field artillery), 43rd and the 1st Canadian (although the latter were short on rifles on 13th July). By 7th September, 1940, the equipment situation had improved (most obviously on the field artillery front), although some divisions were still under the 50% mark of what they 'should' have been equipped with and the 3rd, 43rd and 1st Canadian (the latter now no longer short on rifles) were still the only ones close to 'fully equipped' in all the listed items.
Target (100%) figures given for equipment for a division for 7th September, 1940: Personnel 15,000; Rifles 13,000; Field Artillery 72; A.T. Guns 48; Light M/G 698; M/G Carriers 96; A.T. Rifles 306; Mortars 126.
UNITED KINGDOM 01 January 1940
IN SERVICE: 11 battleships, 3 battlecruisers, 3 monitors, 4 fleet aircraft carriers, 2 light aircraft carriers, 2 seaplane tenders, 13 heavy cruisers, 43 light cruisers, 1
cruiser-minelayer, 41 auxiliary cruisers, 18 destroyer leaders, 160 destroyers, 60 submarines, 34 sloops, 10 patrol ships (corvettes), 12 armed boarding vessels, 38
auxiliary patrol vessels, 7 auxiliary decoy vessels, 1 auxiliary seagoing AA vessel, 1 auxiliary coastal AA vessel, 67 armed yachts, 20 river gunboats, 24 motor torpedo
boats, 21 motor anti-submarine boats, 17 small landing ships, 2 small landing barges, 10 landing crafts, 8 minelayers, 8 auxiliary minelayers, 2 netlayers, 45
minesweepers, 49 auxiliary minesweepers, 1 auxiliary mine destruction vessel, 79 minesweeping trawlers, 576 auxiliary armed trawlers, 6 minesweeping drifters, 58
auxiliary armed drifters, 6 armed whalers, 7 auxiliary armed whalers, 1 minesweeping boat
Doesn't matter how many divisions there are in the UK if they're short of modern weapons to fight with, and a lot of stuff got left behind on the beaches at Dunkirk.
Oh dearie me.
Well, I consider myself better informed now. Wait, that's what you wanted us to take from those stats, isn't it? It seems to be the most pertinent point...
I didn't realise how ignorant posters were on this forum.
I think some posters are suggesting a 'Sea Lion' tried in 1940; however I checked volume 3 (which covers 1941) and couldn't find an equivalent table of division readiness included for 1941; there is a paper partially about home security by the Chief of the Imperial General Staff (Chapter XXIII, 'My Meeting With Roosevelt'), dated 6th May, 1941, with the comment:What were they by 1941? Isn't that when it seems to be suggested that the Germans can actually attempt anything.
So apparently there were still deficiencies in at least some areas (anti-tank guns) in May 1941. (I'm not sure if German 'special craft' to carry tanks referenced actually existed, or were something that the Imperial General Staff imagined that the Germans must have prepared by then, if they were serious about an invasion.)....6. The infantry formations guarding our long and vulnerable coast-line are disposed over long frontages - a division covering 45 miles can have little depth. Our beach obstacles are good, but divisions have less then half their full scale of anti-tank guns and are short of anti-tank mines. German armoured forces, carried in special craft, will certainly be able to land...