Can anyone please Create Map(s) of China during Song Dynasty with Song's Provinces?
Map Thread XII
- Thread starter Baconheimer
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Gian
Banned
Just a little WiP of a map I'm finally getting underway with. It's style to look like a newspaper map of some propaganda put out in the British of TTL to show how the evil Germans are surrounding the Russians on all sides by allying with the Muslim heathens in Persia, Mesopotamia, and China. With a POD in the 9th century, things have gotten weird.Also, as a bonus, getting help from FleetMac to make the whole thing in Old English/Anglo-Saxon English, and a buddy of mine is going to do a little newspaper logo for me. Anyway, the map in progress, not much so far, but it's coming along nicely:
That is really nice, PlatoonSgt. Looking forwards to it (as well as my map request)
CthulhuFhtagn
Banned
A small WIP version of a Q-BAM map I'm working on. It lists the 20 largest economies of an ATL 2011, 74 years after the Atomic War (a nuclear war between the the First French Empire* and the Russian Empire).
Any suggestions/advice on the following would be appreciated:
-The borders of the Russian warlord states
-Whether Central and Eastern Europe would even be inhabitable 74 years after this war
-How badly the fallout would have affected nearby neutral countries (specifically the UK and the Ottoman Empire)
-The borders of the African countries
*EDIT: Forgot to mention this is a Napoleonic "Victory" scenario, in which the Peninsular War never happens, and France and Britain finally sign a truce around 1813.
Any suggestions/advice on the following would be appreciated:
-The borders of the Russian warlord states
-Whether Central and Eastern Europe would even be inhabitable 74 years after this war
-How badly the fallout would have affected nearby neutral countries (specifically the UK and the Ottoman Empire)
-The borders of the African countries
*EDIT: Forgot to mention this is a Napoleonic "Victory" scenario, in which the Peninsular War never happens, and France and Britain finally sign a truce around 1813.
For reference:
Northern Song:
With provincial seats but craptastic visual effects:
Southern Song:
CthulhuFhtagn
Banned
Those maps are beautiful, but they're too damn big. Post some links or scale them down or something.
The German Napoleon begins to reach his close.
I have no intention of causing any offense to people of certain ethnicities in this post.
It is now January 1944, and the war has an inevitable end to it in sight. The actual appearance of this end, however is not so certain.
The Axis powers have been driven off many of their gains, as the Western Allies have slowly grinded their way through Spain. The collaborators fought hard and with intense determination, but ultimately this was to no avail, as an Allied force made its way to Madrid. Franco tried to escape the city, but a mob of Spanish communists lynched him on his way across the Catalan border. Speaking of them, the Catalans and Basques saw the writing on the wall and surrendered, hoping to switch sides to the allies. The allies accepted, much to the distaste of the Spanish, who were radicalising toward the left after years of war and rightist oppression. Ironically, Leon Trotsky has taken refuge here and helped the government set itself up. This instead of Normandy lead the main British and French assault into Western Europe, costing large numbers of troops to carry out the occupation, and assault into Aquitaine. The Nazi counterattacks were more prominent than those of D-day, meaning it is harder for them to advance. Meanwhile, the Americans launched devastating attacks in Southern Italy, with Mussolini’s regime increasingly under fire from within as well as from below. Even their occupied Yugoslavian territory was falling fast to the Red Army. A large number of dissidents gathered in Rome, while Mussolini was making a speech as his soldiers attacked rebels. However, ironically one of his own guards came behind him and shot him in the back of the head. The guard was working under orders of King Victor Emmanuel the Third, who wished to make peace with the allies to avoid the devastation occurring in the South. But Hitler has gained wind of this, and is already planning a full scale invasion to not only repel the Allies from the region, but to also take territories deemed rightfully ‘German’ such as South Tyrol and ports in the Mediterranean.
Soviet politics have been affected significantly by the invasion. The fact that Spain was a vaguely socialist country put Stalin on high alert much sooner than in OTL, and put him on a more urgent mobilisation and industrialisation path. The delay in Barbarossa has also greatly helped his cause, allowing him to annex Tannu Tuva and Xinjiang on the 13th of July and 1st of September respectively. The greater industrialisation and preparation has meant they are considerably better aimed. At one point during the war, the Nazis did manage to reach Moscow, but it had been mostly deserted, being used as bait as the red army retook the city with force using deceptive tactics. The Wehrmacht was decimated in the attack, and driven back quickly. Neither Stalingrad, nor Leningrad, nor the Caucasian oil fields ever fell under threat of the invaders, meaning their industry and crops are more intact, meaning a stronger state overall. The Nazis did manage to murder large portions of slavs and Jews in their occupation, but their tying up of resources means a smaller number have been killed, which will affect post-war politics in a number of ways. Napoleonic history is increasingly being used in Soviet propaganda as a way to show how Russia can once again defeat a western invader using her manpower and determination. The situation in the Balkans means that Russia can also focus more of its troops in northern Europe. Finland has been essentially encircled, and back in September offered a capitulation to the status quo, with some minor territorial adjustments for bribery, but Stalin refused, as he believes that he can crush Finnish resistance. He has also occupied a significant portion of Northern Norway, and has ambitions for this territory, hoping to create a People’s Republic of Lapland as a strategic satellite state. This has upset the other allied powers, though negotiations are already underway in Stockholm, with the results set to come out on the 9th of January.
In the Balkans, things are a complicated matter. The reign of terror the Bulgarians were launching was nearing its apex when the Greeks and Turks launched a major counter offensive in the winter of 1942. This lead to a Nazi invasion of Bulgaria to bolster their forces and set up a more effective and loyal government. This backfired as the Nazis were now even more overextended, allowing the Greeks and Turkish to make more advances. As Sofia was marched upon in July 1943, the Bulgarians finally surrendered. They were stripped off their Macedonian territory, which was grouped together to form the Macedonian republic, while Turkey arranged some minor border arrangements, and its north-eastern area was given back to Romania, now under Soviet occupation. Albania was liberated by a combination of Greek, British and American soldiers, under the old government of King Zog. The Greeks had heavy influence in politics in the region. However, the Albanians were disappointed with the loss of northern Epirus, and as a result, the Greeks decided to give them most of the Kosovo region to help form their northern ‘greater Albanian’ border. After Albania’s establishment in December of 43, the Greeks continued to fund opposition to Italian rule, particularly independence movements as the Red Army was rapidly advancing in Serbia and Bosnia, and beginning to encircle Budapest and Belgrade.
Germany itself may be on the losing side, but Hitler is still determined that victory is possible against the enemy, just that this is a mere setback. Research is being pumped into new V2 rockets and jet plains which the Americans have caught wind of, having managed to capture several scientists. They still occupy the Low Countries, Denmark and Norway and most of France, while still holding onto Slovakia and Hungary, so their forces still have plenty of manpower left to them, even if red soldiers are marching their way to Berlin. The launching of a nerve gas bomb has decimated Warsaw and delayed a Red advance, causing over 50,000 enemy deaths and many civilians as ‘collateral damage’. Already, a coup attempt has been bought about in the Wehrmacht, and as news of preparations for an amphibious invasion of Norway by the British have been heard, some in the German army are seriously considering taking Hitler out of the picture and at least trying to offer some favourable terms. How it would actually work out is anyone's guess.
Any feedback/criticism/suggestions for the future?
I have no intention of causing any offense to people of certain ethnicities in this post.
It is now January 1944, and the war has an inevitable end to it in sight. The actual appearance of this end, however is not so certain.
The Axis powers have been driven off many of their gains, as the Western Allies have slowly grinded their way through Spain. The collaborators fought hard and with intense determination, but ultimately this was to no avail, as an Allied force made its way to Madrid. Franco tried to escape the city, but a mob of Spanish communists lynched him on his way across the Catalan border. Speaking of them, the Catalans and Basques saw the writing on the wall and surrendered, hoping to switch sides to the allies. The allies accepted, much to the distaste of the Spanish, who were radicalising toward the left after years of war and rightist oppression. Ironically, Leon Trotsky has taken refuge here and helped the government set itself up. This instead of Normandy lead the main British and French assault into Western Europe, costing large numbers of troops to carry out the occupation, and assault into Aquitaine. The Nazi counterattacks were more prominent than those of D-day, meaning it is harder for them to advance. Meanwhile, the Americans launched devastating attacks in Southern Italy, with Mussolini’s regime increasingly under fire from within as well as from below. Even their occupied Yugoslavian territory was falling fast to the Red Army. A large number of dissidents gathered in Rome, while Mussolini was making a speech as his soldiers attacked rebels. However, ironically one of his own guards came behind him and shot him in the back of the head. The guard was working under orders of King Victor Emmanuel the Third, who wished to make peace with the allies to avoid the devastation occurring in the South. But Hitler has gained wind of this, and is already planning a full scale invasion to not only repel the Allies from the region, but to also take territories deemed rightfully ‘German’ such as South Tyrol and ports in the Mediterranean.
Soviet politics have been affected significantly by the invasion. The fact that Spain was a vaguely socialist country put Stalin on high alert much sooner than in OTL, and put him on a more urgent mobilisation and industrialisation path. The delay in Barbarossa has also greatly helped his cause, allowing him to annex Tannu Tuva and Xinjiang on the 13th of July and 1st of September respectively. The greater industrialisation and preparation has meant they are considerably better aimed. At one point during the war, the Nazis did manage to reach Moscow, but it had been mostly deserted, being used as bait as the red army retook the city with force using deceptive tactics. The Wehrmacht was decimated in the attack, and driven back quickly. Neither Stalingrad, nor Leningrad, nor the Caucasian oil fields ever fell under threat of the invaders, meaning their industry and crops are more intact, meaning a stronger state overall. The Nazis did manage to murder large portions of slavs and Jews in their occupation, but their tying up of resources means a smaller number have been killed, which will affect post-war politics in a number of ways. Napoleonic history is increasingly being used in Soviet propaganda as a way to show how Russia can once again defeat a western invader using her manpower and determination. The situation in the Balkans means that Russia can also focus more of its troops in northern Europe. Finland has been essentially encircled, and back in September offered a capitulation to the status quo, with some minor territorial adjustments for bribery, but Stalin refused, as he believes that he can crush Finnish resistance. He has also occupied a significant portion of Northern Norway, and has ambitions for this territory, hoping to create a People’s Republic of Lapland as a strategic satellite state. This has upset the other allied powers, though negotiations are already underway in Stockholm, with the results set to come out on the 9th of January.
In the Balkans, things are a complicated matter. The reign of terror the Bulgarians were launching was nearing its apex when the Greeks and Turks launched a major counter offensive in the winter of 1942. This lead to a Nazi invasion of Bulgaria to bolster their forces and set up a more effective and loyal government. This backfired as the Nazis were now even more overextended, allowing the Greeks and Turkish to make more advances. As Sofia was marched upon in July 1943, the Bulgarians finally surrendered. They were stripped off their Macedonian territory, which was grouped together to form the Macedonian republic, while Turkey arranged some minor border arrangements, and its north-eastern area was given back to Romania, now under Soviet occupation. Albania was liberated by a combination of Greek, British and American soldiers, under the old government of King Zog. The Greeks had heavy influence in politics in the region. However, the Albanians were disappointed with the loss of northern Epirus, and as a result, the Greeks decided to give them most of the Kosovo region to help form their northern ‘greater Albanian’ border. After Albania’s establishment in December of 43, the Greeks continued to fund opposition to Italian rule, particularly independence movements as the Red Army was rapidly advancing in Serbia and Bosnia, and beginning to encircle Budapest and Belgrade.
Germany itself may be on the losing side, but Hitler is still determined that victory is possible against the enemy, just that this is a mere setback. Research is being pumped into new V2 rockets and jet plains which the Americans have caught wind of, having managed to capture several scientists. They still occupy the Low Countries, Denmark and Norway and most of France, while still holding onto Slovakia and Hungary, so their forces still have plenty of manpower left to them, even if red soldiers are marching their way to Berlin. The launching of a nerve gas bomb has decimated Warsaw and delayed a Red advance, causing over 50,000 enemy deaths and many civilians as ‘collateral damage’. Already, a coup attempt has been bought about in the Wehrmacht, and as news of preparations for an amphibious invasion of Norway by the British have been heard, some in the German army are seriously considering taking Hitler out of the picture and at least trying to offer some favourable terms. How it would actually work out is anyone's guess.
Any feedback/criticism/suggestions for the future?
A quick and simple little map showing the nations that succeeded the so-called "13 Colonies" that rebelled against the British in the late 18th century, plus some of its (already) independent neighbors (thus adding up to 15). Everything else around them is either British or Spanish, since the current year would be in the early 1820s, probably. Enjoy! And hopefully you'll get a chuckle out of it
OK: this one is basically L Neil Smith's "Crystal Empire", incorporating some bit of "The Gate of Worlds" and a little more plausibility.
A mutated version of the Black Death arises in France: it doesn't travel as well as the regular kind, so it doesn't spread too far, but western Europe gets a double dose of death, allowing for an easier Ottoman expansion and an effort by north African Muslims to do a re-reconquista (or would that be a de-conquista?) by way of Granada. European states most distant from the "front lines" manage to rally, but are in the end unable to prevent Islam from overrunning far more of Europe than OTL. The rather overextended Ottomans, meanwhile, eventually settle for ruling much of their vast conquests as puppets, while the northernmost parts of europe manage to slip out of their influence.
History happens. Due to butterflies from different events in the west, a Turkish *Timurid Empire manages to conquer the north of a less successful Ming dynasty, and over the course of several centuries of warfare, the south and finally Japan, benefitting from technological and military improvements filtering in from the Ottomans. The South Chinese, who like the Sung before them are pushed to look to overseas trade as a substitute for the lost northern lands, discover the route to the Americas, and as the Islamic Khanate slowly grinds south, many flee to the Americas for refuge, followed later by Japanese. The Scandinavians discover their own route to the Americas by way of Greenlands, and are followed by the Ottomans and their Moroccan vassals, who establish themselves to the south.
In the year 2014, the world is divided between three great empires, two of them Muslims: the Christian League of the North likes to think of itself as another big power, but it's not taken too seriously. Absorbing much European culture and philosophy, the Ottoman state has developed a primitive scientific community, and has made great advances in rule-of-thumb engineering: railways are binding the diverse regions of the Empire together, steamships spin their giant paddle wheels, a telegraph has been developed in spite of the still rather confused nature of electrical theory, and an industrial revolution of sorts has been going on for a while, if moderated by a paternalistic Ottoman state which doesn't stand for the sort of abuses normal in early British industrialization. The Empire is rather decentralized (although railways are starting to lessen that) and fairly tolerant of religious minorities, the tolerance that comes from largely unquestioned mastery - although that mastery is now under challenge.
The former Khanate is now the Holy Caliphate of the Central Realm, under a new southern dynasty which burn with the fervor of recent converts. They have no patience for the tolerant and easy-going nature of the Ottomans, [1] and with millennia of Chinese centralism behind them, are making a cohesive and centralized state out their Empire. The Emperor has taken the title of Caliph, claiming to have a better claim to it than the "degenerates" in Constantinople, and military planners are drawing up enthusiastic schemes for campaigns in disputed India, the islands to the south, or even Iran. All the world must acknowledge the Central Realms leadership of Islam! Their technology is derivative of Ottoman models and generally inferior, but they feel enthusiasm, good organization, and numbers will make up for that in case the Ottomans dispute their status.
It's not just rivalry with the Ottomans, though: it's partially sour grapes and a way of washing the sour taste of failure out of the collective national mouth after the attempt to invade the *Americas to regain control of their "disloyal subjects" ended up with their fleet sent to the bottom of the Pacific by the Threefold Realm's superior naval gunnery.
The Threefold Realm is three kingdoms or "Thrones" founded by Chinese, Japanese and some Korean immigrant mixing with native American societies, and have only been unified in one overarching empire for the last century and a half. There are substantial regional differences: for instances, the more solidly Asian northern "Throne of the Golden Mountain" doesn't cotton to human sacrifice to the extent of the southerners, although it has begun to catch on as a mark of Imperial solidarity.
(It's not quite Mesoamerican or Andean sacrifice: it's not specifically meant to raise the sun or feed the Gods, who can feed themselves, but meant to help maintain the Tao, the harmony, of Earth and heaven, and represents the willingness of the People to sacrifice themselves for the common good: victims are - at least in theory - meant to be willing and honored. It also doesn't take place in quite such job lots: the elaboration of ceremony is more important than poundage of heart-meats).
They are generally tolerant of polytheists who don't follow their odd mix of Taoism, Buddhism, and local faiths, but when it comes to the Muslim enemy no follower of Islam is allowed in their lands, and Christians and Jews, as "people of the Book", are usually confined to trading ports and border towns. They have created an extensive network of native vassals to serve as a "cordon sanitaire" between then and the arrivals from across the Atlantic, and are quite concerned with reports of conversions to Islam and Christianity in some of their more far-flung vassals.
The overall society is aristocratic, highly literate, and artistic, and while culturally quite divergent from old China consider themselves the "true heirs" to Chinese civilization: they hope to one day return and liberate their homeland (there is considerable dispute as to whether the locals can be "deprogrammed" or whether they will simply have to kill off most of the population and replace them with immigrants from the *Americas).
This is not entirely wishful thinking: the inhabitants of the Threefold Realm of the Dawn Lands are technically very adept, and their natural philosophy is in some ways more advanced than that of the Ottomans: of late, some of their deepest thinkers have begun to wonder what it might look like if one could ride atop a beam of light...
For now, they wait and watch the increasing tensions between the Ottomans and the Central Realmers. If a World War breaks out, the opportunities may be vast.
[1] They actually don't mind too much People of the Book, Jews and Christians, which in any event are few in number in the Central Realm. It's tolerance of _heathens_ like Buddhists and Hundus which really honks them off, an attitude which began to develop when China went Muslim-majority and treating "pagans" nice became less necessary.
A mutated version of the Black Death arises in France: it doesn't travel as well as the regular kind, so it doesn't spread too far, but western Europe gets a double dose of death, allowing for an easier Ottoman expansion and an effort by north African Muslims to do a re-reconquista (or would that be a de-conquista?) by way of Granada. European states most distant from the "front lines" manage to rally, but are in the end unable to prevent Islam from overrunning far more of Europe than OTL. The rather overextended Ottomans, meanwhile, eventually settle for ruling much of their vast conquests as puppets, while the northernmost parts of europe manage to slip out of their influence.
History happens. Due to butterflies from different events in the west, a Turkish *Timurid Empire manages to conquer the north of a less successful Ming dynasty, and over the course of several centuries of warfare, the south and finally Japan, benefitting from technological and military improvements filtering in from the Ottomans. The South Chinese, who like the Sung before them are pushed to look to overseas trade as a substitute for the lost northern lands, discover the route to the Americas, and as the Islamic Khanate slowly grinds south, many flee to the Americas for refuge, followed later by Japanese. The Scandinavians discover their own route to the Americas by way of Greenlands, and are followed by the Ottomans and their Moroccan vassals, who establish themselves to the south.
In the year 2014, the world is divided between three great empires, two of them Muslims: the Christian League of the North likes to think of itself as another big power, but it's not taken too seriously. Absorbing much European culture and philosophy, the Ottoman state has developed a primitive scientific community, and has made great advances in rule-of-thumb engineering: railways are binding the diverse regions of the Empire together, steamships spin their giant paddle wheels, a telegraph has been developed in spite of the still rather confused nature of electrical theory, and an industrial revolution of sorts has been going on for a while, if moderated by a paternalistic Ottoman state which doesn't stand for the sort of abuses normal in early British industrialization. The Empire is rather decentralized (although railways are starting to lessen that) and fairly tolerant of religious minorities, the tolerance that comes from largely unquestioned mastery - although that mastery is now under challenge.
The former Khanate is now the Holy Caliphate of the Central Realm, under a new southern dynasty which burn with the fervor of recent converts. They have no patience for the tolerant and easy-going nature of the Ottomans, [1] and with millennia of Chinese centralism behind them, are making a cohesive and centralized state out their Empire. The Emperor has taken the title of Caliph, claiming to have a better claim to it than the "degenerates" in Constantinople, and military planners are drawing up enthusiastic schemes for campaigns in disputed India, the islands to the south, or even Iran. All the world must acknowledge the Central Realms leadership of Islam! Their technology is derivative of Ottoman models and generally inferior, but they feel enthusiasm, good organization, and numbers will make up for that in case the Ottomans dispute their status.
It's not just rivalry with the Ottomans, though: it's partially sour grapes and a way of washing the sour taste of failure out of the collective national mouth after the attempt to invade the *Americas to regain control of their "disloyal subjects" ended up with their fleet sent to the bottom of the Pacific by the Threefold Realm's superior naval gunnery.
The Threefold Realm is three kingdoms or "Thrones" founded by Chinese, Japanese and some Korean immigrant mixing with native American societies, and have only been unified in one overarching empire for the last century and a half. There are substantial regional differences: for instances, the more solidly Asian northern "Throne of the Golden Mountain" doesn't cotton to human sacrifice to the extent of the southerners, although it has begun to catch on as a mark of Imperial solidarity.
(It's not quite Mesoamerican or Andean sacrifice: it's not specifically meant to raise the sun or feed the Gods, who can feed themselves, but meant to help maintain the Tao, the harmony, of Earth and heaven, and represents the willingness of the People to sacrifice themselves for the common good: victims are - at least in theory - meant to be willing and honored. It also doesn't take place in quite such job lots: the elaboration of ceremony is more important than poundage of heart-meats).
They are generally tolerant of polytheists who don't follow their odd mix of Taoism, Buddhism, and local faiths, but when it comes to the Muslim enemy no follower of Islam is allowed in their lands, and Christians and Jews, as "people of the Book", are usually confined to trading ports and border towns. They have created an extensive network of native vassals to serve as a "cordon sanitaire" between then and the arrivals from across the Atlantic, and are quite concerned with reports of conversions to Islam and Christianity in some of their more far-flung vassals.
The overall society is aristocratic, highly literate, and artistic, and while culturally quite divergent from old China consider themselves the "true heirs" to Chinese civilization: they hope to one day return and liberate their homeland (there is considerable dispute as to whether the locals can be "deprogrammed" or whether they will simply have to kill off most of the population and replace them with immigrants from the *Americas).
This is not entirely wishful thinking: the inhabitants of the Threefold Realm of the Dawn Lands are technically very adept, and their natural philosophy is in some ways more advanced than that of the Ottomans: of late, some of their deepest thinkers have begun to wonder what it might look like if one could ride atop a beam of light...
For now, they wait and watch the increasing tensions between the Ottomans and the Central Realmers. If a World War breaks out, the opportunities may be vast.
[1] They actually don't mind too much People of the Book, Jews and Christians, which in any event are few in number in the Central Realm. It's tolerance of _heathens_ like Buddhists and Hundus which really honks them off, an attitude which began to develop when China went Muslim-majority and treating "pagans" nice became less necessary.
Nice work, but it looks like notes 15 and 16 are absent without leave.
Nice, but I'm puzzled by Japan being behind Indonesia, Mexico, and Dravidstan, unless 1. Japan's modernization was full of FAIL and/or these are fully first-world countries. (Mexico, I note, has less people than Japan OTL). Britain having a smaller economy than the Colombia-equivalent is also puzzling. Did it also get nuked?
Fallout levels would depend on how many nukes were used: some rough estimate of the megatonnage would be useful, or is this Russia post missile crisis war, or post Able Archer goes bad, or what?
France looks oddly untouched.
The borders in Africa should be butterflied more in the cases of the *Cameroons, Ethiopia, Zambia, and Angola, I think.
Central and Eastern Europe should be inhabitable save immediately downwind from strikes on nuclear power plants and other nuclear materials storage locations: the radiation from nuclear warheads drops off fairly quickly unless you do something truly diabolical like seed them with cobalt. Airburst radiation dies down quickly (see Hiroshima) and even ground bursts should die back to tolerable levels in 74 years.
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