a Valkyrie Rises Over Europe, a Alternate Story of the Cold War
- Thread starter Kaiser K
- Start date
Oh, in that case then carry on. So long as you admit it is implausible and are pretty much working via authorial fiat from that initial point, I'm cool with it.
But in terms of addressing plausibility...
Barbarossa can't be moved up. Industrial production issues and the pro-longed spring Raputitsa means that a May start date is right out.
A vast oversimplification. Court of the Red Tsar does an excellent job dissecting the personal interactions between Stalin's circle and they were quite cordial to each other in their private life (unless it was clear someone was heading to be purged, in which case they couldn't fall over each other fast enough). Plus the Soviet leadership had a proven record of placing the interests of the Soviet Union before their own personal or career interests. Hell, some of the guys Stalin had shot during the purges basically managed to convince themselves that they were guilty of crimes against the State and deserved the punishment they were going to get for the good of the State*. And quite unlike Hitler's cronies many of them had the jobs they had because they were good at them.
This was one of the reasons the Soviet Union beat out the Nazi Germany in terms of industrial and (eventually) military efficiency. The former was led by ruthless bureaucrats, the latter was led by backstabbing careerists.
As for Beria, if he tries to make a blatant power-grab he'll find himself alone in the attempt. Securing power within the USSR requires political alliances and no-one is going to ally themselves with him for a power grab while the situation is so dire. If he approaches someone, he'll quickly find himself removed from power and quite possibly leading a penal battalion through a minefield.
*Big Brother, eat your heart out.
After Hitler invaded the Soviet Union, pretty much all of those illusions were gone for everyone involved. Plus, the Soviet leadership can be described as a lot of things on this time but "short-sighted" isn't one of them. Marxist-Leninism is very keen with its emphasis on the sweep of history after all.
I feel like I need to have at least a semi plausible explanation for how the Nazi's won through.
Hmmm, based off the title I had assumed it was going to be about a TL where Operation: Valkyrie (or something close to it) had succeeded, so we'd get some kind of settled peace on the Western Front which allows Germany to swing to the East and grind out the USSR. I know that's about as implausible as me waking up tomorrow and discovering I'm the heir the the British Throne, but even that is slightly less implausible than America staying out of Europe because "Fuck it, Europe problems man".
Still, I'll be interested to see where this goes.
Still, I'll be interested to see where this goes.
Honestly, most of my reason for thinking a post Stalin bloodbath is possible is due to the memory that when Stalin died OTL, much of the other surviving bigwigs clubbed together to have Beria killed. Which when one reads about Beria, seems like an excellent idea. I'm now interested in this Court of the Red Tsar though, because I realize there are gaps in my knowledge.
ObsessedNuker got me thinking though, with the stuff about how once Barbarossa goes of, any credibility of any "this is the last time - really!" from the Germans is pretty much gone. Additionally, there is the Red's comment of the nitwit military decisions Stalin made, and was obeyed due to the "being Stalin." Frankly the other player in this dance is a possibly Parkinson's riddled man of dubious mental stability and known (if we trust Speer, and I know, that's got its grains of salt) amphetamine habit. Once Barbarossa begins, the German elites are committed. If Hitler keels over and dies, enough of the elite (Himmler, Goebells, et al.) are still committed enough Nazis to make for plenty of fucking grimdark, but without Hitler's... unique... military command ideas, perhaps the Germans due well enough for a negotiated settlement? Critically, no Hitler probably means no declaration of war on the US. But the attack on Russia means the German elites are in for a penny, in for a pound.
So maybe let Stalin live, but kill Hitler and let Himmler, Goering and the rest carry the torch of being awful, awful human beings? It's a thin thread, but we all allowed CalBear to hang a timeline on no Afrika Korps meaning a successful enough Barbarossa to inspire Stalin to wack Zhukov. Im frankly enjoying a Nazi thread that's free of slobbering descriptions of obscure Wehrmacht weapons or the typical "teh Germans werez supermen" PoDs.
ObsessedNuker got me thinking though, with the stuff about how once Barbarossa goes of, any credibility of any "this is the last time - really!" from the Germans is pretty much gone. Additionally, there is the Red's comment of the nitwit military decisions Stalin made, and was obeyed due to the "being Stalin." Frankly the other player in this dance is a possibly Parkinson's riddled man of dubious mental stability and known (if we trust Speer, and I know, that's got its grains of salt) amphetamine habit. Once Barbarossa begins, the German elites are committed. If Hitler keels over and dies, enough of the elite (Himmler, Goebells, et al.) are still committed enough Nazis to make for plenty of fucking grimdark, but without Hitler's... unique... military command ideas, perhaps the Germans due well enough for a negotiated settlement? Critically, no Hitler probably means no declaration of war on the US. But the attack on Russia means the German elites are in for a penny, in for a pound.
So maybe let Stalin live, but kill Hitler and let Himmler, Goering and the rest carry the torch of being awful, awful human beings? It's a thin thread, but we all allowed CalBear to hang a timeline on no Afrika Korps meaning a successful enough Barbarossa to inspire Stalin to wack Zhukov. Im frankly enjoying a Nazi thread that's free of slobbering descriptions of obscure Wehrmacht weapons or the typical "teh Germans werez supermen" PoDs.
Seconded.I am really enjoying this timeline so far. Please continue.
Also, mostly because Historyman got me thinking about Japan, if the Pacific war lasted till 1946 did America just blockade and starve the home islands, or was downfall launched? Either way, poor Japan.
This is a really neat idea; obviously one that has been done but it's always fun to read when it is done.
This was part of the OTL plan: constant warfare in the East.
No matter what you do, you're going to have to rely on a series of events that range from fairly unlikely to downright impossible. That's fine for the purposes of your TL, which will be alternate history that is fiction with a historical basis rather than a possible alternate history that could have been. The important thing is that it's entertaining.
That was where I assumed he was going with it. I figured the Cold War would involve a free Western Europe and a Germany that shat on the East instead of trying to fight the West until their downfall.
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Anyway, K man, my biggest piece of advice is that you need to write out your updates, then slow down and proofread. Don't be in such a rush to stamp out text; really go through and read it after you've written it and make it structurally sound. Paragraphs should be composed of sentences; sentences should end before the next ones begin. Don't add an "m" to every "who." Don't use apostrophes every time you use an "s." Sound sentence structure makes it easier to read.
Other than that, keep it up, because you have a cool idea.
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Chapter 1
A Revised Brief History of The Second Great War
Chapter 1
A Revised Brief History of The Second Great War
1939-1946
German troops during the Invasion of Poland
The Second Great War broke out on September 1st, 1939 when the armies of the German Reich crossed the international boundary into the Polish Republic, triggering a chain of events that would lead to Declarations of War by Great Britain and the French Republic, after the events of the past several years since the rise of the Nazi's in 1933, including German rearmament, the Anschluss, and broken promises such as Munich, had led the Western Allies to decide Poland was the last straw for the Nazi's, when the final line was crossed, the Allies could no longer sit on the sidelines and ignore the Nazi's expansionism across Europe, it is certainly a curious anamoly as to why the Western Democracies waited until the events in Poland confront the German War Machine, however events in 1939 would lead the Western Democracies to believe in their ability to take on Adolf Hitler and his War Machine,
The declarations would not be helpful to the Poles in anyway however, as the Western Democracies certainly had no ability to help the Poles in any major strategic way, and with the majority of the Wehrmacht's resources turned towards Poland, the fate of the Polish State was sealed, thanks to the strength of the German War Machine, within a month of the initial invasion, Poland Western Half has successfully been conquered by the Reich, the Soviet Union per the provisions of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact signed between Berlin and Moscow shortly before the breakout of Polish-German hostilities, soon moved in and seized the rest of Poland, successfully partitioning Poland per the provisions of the Diplomatic Pact which split Eastern Europe into sphere's of influence between Berlin and Moscow, leading to the later events of the Annexation of the Baltic States by the Soviet Union, the Soviet seizure of Bessarabia, and the Winter War between Finland and the USSR.
The End of the Polish Campaign proved the success of new German mobile tactics, the ideal of "Blitzkrieg" (Lightning War), built around armored formations supported by air power, saw massive success against the Polish armies, and would prove successful again, the End of the Polish Campaign would also begin a period known as the "Phony War" during the period between October of 1939 and May of 1940, during this period, there was minimal fighting between the Western Allies of Great Britain and France and Germany, most fighting during this period occurred in the North Atlantic as Germany begin conducting submarine raids against Allied Shipping, as well as Naval Battles between the Kriegsmarine and the Royal Navy, during the period of the Phony War, Germany would invade and conquer both Denmark and Norway, to secure Sweden's Iron Ore Resources for the Reich's War Effort, as well as prevent the use of Norway by the British as a dagger pointed at the Reich, the Phony War would however end with the launch of Fall Gelb (Case Yellow) in May of 1940 by the German Army, in a mere 6 weeks, the Low Counties (Netherlands, Belgium and Luxemburg), as well as France would be decisively and shockingly defeated by the German War Machine, in hindsight, the War in France was one that could have turned another way, however mismanagement among the French Military Leadership and the failure to properly react to or adapt to new German mobile tactics, as well as low French morale and the French Army's failures to defeat the swift German attack would all contribute to France's downfall despite the equal if not superior equipment of the French Army and the British Expeditionary Forces within the country within the areas of mobile warfare and armored machines, the stunning success of the German Army was a surprise to many, including Germany herself, who had not for seen the quick fall of France, in the end however, all of Western Europe save for Britain herself, the neutral Swiss, and Spain and Portugal were under the control of the Axis Powers, in the aftermath of their defeat in the Battle of France, much of France's Army would manage escape to Africa under the leadership of General Charles De Gaulle, forming a French government in exile that came to be known as Free France.
Joseph Stalin, leader of the Soviet Union until his death in 1942
After the Defeat of France in the campaigns of May and June, the German High Command began preparing for the inevitable, War with the Soviet Union, next on the German target list, the German High Command decided to forgo plans to launch bombing campaigns against the British Isles, or to increase U-Boat Presence in the North Atlantic and Atlantic, the German High Command decided that the UK at this point proved no immediate threat, and was safe to ignore, only continuing current presence in the North Atlantic against Royal Navy vessels, these attacks proved to be lethal to British shipping and the British Navy, and had the bounce back effect of affecting attitudes in the United States, Congress decided not to pass the proposed Lend-Lease Act in mid 1940, and the United States soon reaffirmed her neutrality regarding the events in Europe.
Regarding Germany's allies, The Reich's success had not been replicated by her ally, Italy, the inefficiency of the Italian Army was proven tremendously in the failures of her Invasion of Greece, only the intervention of the Wehrmacht saved the Italian Army from complete and utter devastation against the Greeks, after the failure of Greece, Hitler soon refused to support Italy once more when it found itself unable to overwhelm Britain in the Deserts of Africa, Italy soon found herself defeated in North Africa, and Berlin's ultimatum to Rome, threatening to cut off all support if Rome were to undertake another foolish action such as Greece and North Africa soon forced Mussolini to back down to Berlin's demands, with the Mediterranean secure minus the low level Naval War that would persist between the Regina Marina and the Royal Navy for the remainder of the conflict, would soon allow the Reich to turn her entire attention towards the Soviet Union.
the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact had always been seen as a temporary measure by the German government, especially that of German Führer Adolf Hitler, whom saw the rich agricultural lands of Western Russia as the perfect land for the German people to grow and expand, and achieve their destiny to expand the "Master Race's Lebensraum (Living Space)" in the name of the "Drag nach Osten" (Drive To the East) ideal, the idea of Lebensraum and Drag nach Osten was a core ideal of Nazi ideology, which sought to expand the Germanic people's, whom Nazi ideology suggested was being choked and starved within their current borders, using previous blockades during Wartime, including the British blockade during the First War as examples of how limited the German people's space was, and the rich lands of Western Russia and the Ukraine were seen as the perfect lands to circumvent these food problems, so the German nation could sufficiently have the room to grow properly and feed themselves, and protect themselves against outside threats, cutting dependency on the outside world's resources and ensuring Germany had all the resources she needed within her own borders, thanks to securing their positions against the British, the German Army had over a year to prepare for the campaigns in the East.
The Breakout of the War on the Eastern Front was the result of these specific desires for expansion towards the East, the German Army would turn Eastwards against their former Soviet partners when Operation; Barbarossa launched on the 22nd of June, 1941, the Soviets were well aware of the temporary nature of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact as well, however extreme Soviet mismanagement, including the various purges conducted by Joseph Stalin against the Officer Corps of the Red Army, General Mismanagement of Military Resources by the Soviet High Command, and complete lack of Soviet preparations for the German Invasion led to a inexperienced, under supplied Red Army that was completely unprepared to deal with the German Army, which smashed through Soviet defenses with great effectiveness, Minsk fell only a day into the invasion, and by the end of June the Germans, pushing along the entire front of the Soviet Union were already threatening the Soviet's positions at Kiev and along the River Dnieper, and pushing the Red Army out of Smolensk, considered by many to be the Gates to Moscow, Army Group North, the Northern Flank of the invasion made great gains towards it's goal of Leningrad as it smashed through Soviet defenses in the Baltics and pushed North towards the Soviet city (now known as Himmlerstadt), the former capital of the Russian Empire and a historical center of Russian culture, as well as the Birthplace of the Russian Revolution, Leningrad found itself under a destructive siege by the German Army as Army Group North reached the city in July of 1941, Leningrad would however only endure for 9 Weeks, a Successful coordinated Finnish-German Attack on the city, while costly in casualties, managed to overwhelm Soviet defenses and saw the fall of Leningrad on August 18th, 1941, meanwhile, Army Group Centre, who's main goal was Moscow, found itself a mere 36 miles from Moscow, however near the end of July, Soviet Armies had found some sense of coordination against German armies, and managed to delay Army Group Centre's offensive towards Moscow by bleeding the Germans in Smolensk, this, combined with increasingly more organized Soviet resistance were able to delay the German offensive, stalling it as the Russian Winter came, however the Soviet's still remained very shattered, and thanks to the year's preparations by the Wehrmacht allowed the Surplus of Winter Uniforms and Equipment collected for the planned occupation would allow the Germans to endure the Russian Winter better then they otherwise would have.
German troops assault Soviet positions outside Smolensk, circa 1941
The War itself had taken great tolls on Soviet leader Joseph Stalin, surviving Soviet officials from the time report the former General Secretary barely spoke for weeks after the launch of hostilities by the Nazi's, and in fact the War would ultimately be Stalin's downfall, upon hearing the news of Leningrad's capture by the Germans, Stalin a extremely paranoid and easily angered man, reacted violently to the fall of Leningrad, Stalin soon blamed his Generals for the Red Army's failures, and most of the Soviet High Command, including Marshal Zhukov found themselves victims of Stalin's rage as he cleaned house within STAVKA of those he deemed responsible for Russia's failures so far, Stalin himself assumed direct military command of the War, and would direct Russian actions as 1942 came, Stalin's actions were actions that would ultimately doom the Soviets later.
as the Spring of 1942 came, the Germans launched Case Blue, their Spring Offensive against the Red Army, the German campaigns in Spring would fare as well as the campaigns in 1941 had, a Drive Towards the Caucasus was launched by the Wehrmacht and the SS, with the ultimate goal being control of the Volga River and the Baku Oil Fields, for reasons that were tactical, strategic and symbolic considering the namesake of the city, the main strategic position along this front was the City of Stalingrad, along the Volga River, due to the implications of the thrust towards the Volga, it was a battle that both sides needed to win, especially the Soviets, considering their precarious position in the War with Germany, The Battle for Control of Stalingrad would be a immensely intense one, ferocious and bloody fighting in the streets of Stalingrad as the Wehrmacht and Soviets battled for control of every single block and building proved was drastic and destructive, unlike anything ever seen in the history of Humankind, the heroic stand of the Soviets at Stalingrad would however be made futile when the Germans finished their isolation of the city's defenders when the Crossing, a important strategic position along the Volga from where the Soviets could resupply Stalingrad, was captured by elements of the 6th Army in early October, the capture of the Crossing would be extremely disastrous for the Soviets, with the inability to reinforce or resupply the city's defenders, all resistance within Stalingrad was eliminated by the New Year of 1943, several Soviet counter attacks in late November and December would prove futile as the Germans secured control their control of the Volga and dug in for the Winter, effectively cutting off all Soviet forces from the Caucasus.
Coincidently enough, the failed counterattacks preceded the mysterious death of Joseph Stalin of a Heart Attack on the Christian holiday of Christmas as it was observed in the Western World, December 25th, 1942, many rumors continue to persist to the Present Day that suggest his death was nothing but natural, however Stalin's death left the Soviet Union in a extremely precarious situation as a the power vacuum left by Uncle Joe's demise would see the general collapse of Soviet resistance against German forces, the Soviet Army had been shattered as the units of the Red Army and NKVD fought amongst each other just to survive as Russia itself burned, with Leningrad and Stalingrad fallen, the Volga and the Caucasus effectively in German hands, and Moscow threatened by Army Group Centre, the new Soviet government headed by NKVD Chairman Lavrentiy Beria, was soon forced to seek terms from the Reich, these terms, were not surprisingly extremely harsh, the Soviet Union, defeated and devastated, was forced behind the Ural Mountains as it ceded all of Russia West of the Ural Mountains to the Greater German Reich, The End of Soviet Military Resistance of course did not mean the end of Soviet resistance, many Slavic men and women, knowing their fate's under German rule, decided to continuing their resistance against German occupation, forming bands of paramilitary groups across the newly conquered Eastern German Territories, forming the core of what would eventually become known as the "Gangs of Wolf's", however their actual effect on German control is debatable, considering the continued survival of the Reich and it's control in the East, the Soviets and Germans soon established, a peace, a sort of bitter peace, but with the East secured, the German government reorganized their new territory into several Reichkommissariat's (Ostland, Ukraine, Kaukasus and Moskowien), the Soviet Union itself soon moved behind the new border, trying to find a sense of reason after the disastrous defeat against the Germans.
German victory on the Eastern Front effectively spelt doom for the Allies, Britain and the Free French Forces, as well as the other members of the Commonwealth sat dismayed at the swift and sudden defeat of Russia, It seemed like the Germans were unbeatable, not even the Soviet Red Army was able to do it despite their best efforts, the United States, who was dragged out of it's neutrality into a War with Germany's ally, the Empire of Japan after the latter attacked the Pearl Harbor Naval Base in Honolulu, Hawaii, joined the European War in 1944 after the Surrender of Japan in the aftermath of the Capture of Tokyo in Spring 1944, the precarious position of the Allies was obvious, with Russia out of the War, even with the units Germany had to keep in the East to garrison it's new Eastern territories, still had nearly 200 veteran Heer and 15 Waffen-SS Divisions fresh from combat in the East, as well as the Veteran Forces of the German Luftwaffe, a attack into France was nearly impossible due to the size of the German forces, and the Allies would not be able to have the necessary forces to perform major offensive operations against the Reich until 1946 at the earliest, especially with millions of untrained American troops, even with several divisions of veterans from the Pacific War making the way to Europe to supplement the Allies in Europe would prove unable to surmount the obstacles involved with attempting a invasion of "Fortress: Europe", several half hearted raids onto small German possessions in the Mediterranean and along the French Coast, including the recapture of Jersey, as well as the recapture of Vichy controlled colonies in Northern Africa proved half-hearted, especially with the death of Franklin Delano Roosevelt and the succession of Harry S. Truman, as well as the election of Clement Atlee as British Prime Minister proved to be the beginning of the end, unable to make any major gains against the Axis, the increasingly War Weary Allied Public soon limited political options for Allied Leaders, facing prospect of a continuing war where neither side could make any gains, where British and Americans continued to die for what many were beginning to see as a fruitless cause, soon forced Allied hands towards making Peace with the European Axis Powers, the Allies secured their gains, and after negotiations with the Germans and Italians conducted in the Swiss city of Geneva, Peace was soon achieved and the Second Great War ended with the signing of the Treaty of Geneva, on July 19th, 1946.
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I took what everyone said and accounted for it, and revised what I had written earlier, and I also have to admit, I did take a little inspiration from A-A NW for that post, I don't claim to be as any good of a writer as CalBear is, but I want to be that good one day. and I just want to start somewhere.
Quoted for truth. You've got an interesting idea here, but that revision was literally 11 massive run on sentences that were really difficult to parse out. You've got something here, just be a bit more cautious/careful about writing it out.
I would strongly disagree with this point. Stalin was a paranoid sociopath, but he was also the only one with both the power and intellect to hold the USSR together in the face of the Reich's attack. This is perhaps best demonstrated by the fact that after his brief breakdown in June of 1941, that the rest of the Soviet leadership appeared in his dacha and effectively begged him to come back and take control. None of the leadership trusted each other, none of them had enough power to take control except Beria, who everyone despised and who was a literal madman lacking Stalin's charisma and intellect.
Stalin's madness, including his orders of "no retreat" were incredibly costly, but his decision to listen to a few military professionals, especially Zhukov, allowed the Soviets to survive the initial shock effect of the German Offensive, steady into reasonable defensive positions and endure. Once the initial storm was weathered, it was Stalin who drove the USSR to victory, as much through charisma as fear, although the fear aspect can not be underestimated.
A Soviet Union where Stalin had reacted, as was his pattern, to massive failures by killing anyone who was handy and even remotely involved including very senior officers (and if one reviews the senior commanders who would have been under the ax if Leningrad and Stalingrad were to fall, it is a virtual who's who of the Red Army counter offensives that defeated the Reich), would collapse like a circus tent without its center pole if he died/was assassinated.
It is difficult to separate the brilliance of Stalin from the loathsomeness of Stalin (I personally despise the man and hope that he suffers for all of eternity for his crimes), but it is critical to do so when considering the results of the Great Patriotic War. Without Stalin, unless there was different leader with similar skills and charisma who was well established some time before June of 1941, the Soviets would have lost the War.
Indeed, Stalin was just a force that did keep the USSR together, he was a mad man, but unlike Adolf, he was sane enough to listen to his military professionals, however Stalin was a force that kept the nation together, and his death/assassination would cause the Soviet Union to come crashing down around it.
As for the commanders who would've gotten the Ax if Leningrad (and Stalingrad later) fell, it was a interesting list indeed, basically all the Soviet's best commanders and those who helped drive the USSR to victory over the Reich on the ground, the death of these men at the hand of a angered Stalin would be something the Red Army would find it hard to overcome, pretty much impossible, as illustrated with Stalin's Purge of Officials and assumption of direct control of the War after the fall of Leningrad here. and would have happened even further after Stalingrad if Stalin hadn't conveniently died right after the fall of the city.
As for the commanders who would've gotten the Ax if Leningrad (and Stalingrad later) fell, it was a interesting list indeed, basically all the Soviet's best commanders and those who helped drive the USSR to victory over the Reich on the ground, the death of these men at the hand of a angered Stalin would be something the Red Army would find it hard to overcome, pretty much impossible, as illustrated with Stalin's Purge of Officials and assumption of direct control of the War after the fall of Leningrad here. and would have happened even further after Stalingrad if Stalin hadn't conveniently died right after the fall of the city.
It is coherent, just difficult to read. The suggestion to review the text is a sound one, sometimes two shorter sentences, or even some extra paragraphs that break up the text are better than one.
I have one major disagreement with the scenario, and one minor one. The major on is the timing of the capture of the Crossing points at Stalingrad; December is far too late to save 6th Army. The latest time for the capture is early October, with mid-late September being even better. That would provide sufficient time for the 6th Army to redeploy into good defensive positions and prepare for the winter, but doesn't give enough time for Hitler to bundle the Army up and send it off to the Caucasus.
The minor issue is an active U-boat campaign, even one limited to the Approaches to the British Isles, would likely be damaging enough to the UK that some version of Lend-Lease would be pushed through, particularly if any U.S. flagged vessels were attacked (and given the make-up of the global merchant fleet in 1940-41 U.S. bottoms being lost is a virtual given). It might not be enough to bring the U.S. into active engagement (I.e. Neutrality Patrol), but could well be sufficient to cause a more active U.S. material assistance effort, especially after Pearl Harbor and the active alliance between the U.S. & UK/Commonwealth against the Japanese. Perhaps a campaign limited to action against RN vessels, with the odd civilian ship lost would be a better solution.
Nonetheless an interesting start.
I probably should review text as it's not a bad idea, It's just that what may sound and read fine to me might not to others. in regards to most of my writing, so I may have to proofread it in front of other people.
Hmm, I'll fix that, I wasn't sure if December was too late for the capture of the Crossing, but I went with it anyway because it sounded right, but I'll go change that now to October I suppose,
Interesting, I suppose it's almost a given that US. bottoms would be lost given the nature of the U-Boat Campaign, even a limited one such as the one I described, I'll make a few minor edits to that.
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I'm not convinced a dead Stalin would make the SU lose the war, but I think it could easily have made them unable to win it. Which probably works just as well for the story conceived anyway...
One problem, though. Even if Japan sits on its hands in SE Asia and the USA and the Empire aren't bosom allies in 1942, what's to stop Tube Alloys sending a care package of instant sunshine to Berlin in around 1946? If its obvious Britain isn't going to be invading the continent any time soon, TA will carry on at full speed.
There is also a problem if Japan attacks as OTL - with no Afrika Corps, and an early Imperial victory in Africa, Malaya will be more strongly held and may well not fall (doesn't necessarily affect your story). But why isn't Manhatten going ahead?
Also with a continuing war, Britain wont hold the 1945 elections, so Churchill is still PM.
The allies could have taken Germany without the SU, but it would have been costly. There needs to be a figleaf or two to make it believable that they decide it isn't worth the body count.
But don't worry too much, just make it not too unbelievable (just pretend you're Conroy...) and it will serve as a background to your real story.
One problem, though. Even if Japan sits on its hands in SE Asia and the USA and the Empire aren't bosom allies in 1942, what's to stop Tube Alloys sending a care package of instant sunshine to Berlin in around 1946? If its obvious Britain isn't going to be invading the continent any time soon, TA will carry on at full speed.
There is also a problem if Japan attacks as OTL - with no Afrika Corps, and an early Imperial victory in Africa, Malaya will be more strongly held and may well not fall (doesn't necessarily affect your story). But why isn't Manhatten going ahead?
Also with a continuing war, Britain wont hold the 1945 elections, so Churchill is still PM.
The allies could have taken Germany without the SU, but it would have been costly. There needs to be a figleaf or two to make it believable that they decide it isn't worth the body count.
But don't worry too much, just make it not too unbelievable (just pretend you're Conroy...
) and it will serve as a background to your real story.Well for one thing, Manhattan going ahead and Berlin receiving instant sunshine slightly defeats the purpose of what I am going here for, and that is Nazi victory.
But I mentioned in the update that political pressure at home and a extremely war weary public (especially in the US, who had dealt with it's real enemy, Japan, already, and only got involved against Germany after the War against Japan was over), Truman and Atlee (or Churchill), lost the political capital to continue the War against the Germans.
and even if the US and Britain didn't end the War, it would still be quite some time before they had the forces needed to invade the Reich's "Fortress Europe", even with Nukes (and I imagine the Manhattan Project was delayed ITTL due to a more Neutral US, no need for it until Pearl Harbor is attacked maybe) the Campaign in Europe here would be extremely costly in body count, I can easily see the White House and the British looking at the situation and deciding it wasn't worth the body count.