Red Star: A Soviet Lunar Landing

The Latter. What did you expect? The N-1 to launch perfectly everysingle time? The Proton failed IOTL and you didn't see political consequences. The R-7 failed and you didn't see political consequences.

Not at all. Did I sound like an expected a perfect launch record? Not sure why I might have... I just wanted to know what the effects of these failures are.

As for the first question, the Soviets beat the Americans to the Moon in 1969 and were ahead for most of the 1960s Space Race. In 1970 the US decided they needed to beat the Russians to a Moonbase and Space Station. The Soviets launch a Space Station in 1972 which is successful (a 30 day mission and a 45 day mission). More Soviet space stations that compete with Skylab. The gap between 1972 and 1975 where the Soviets were the only ones landing on the Moon and reaping propaganda firsts.

Problem is, while the moon race was a sprint, a moon base competition is a marathon. That marathon is going to be under attack from both left and right. People will ask "who needs to stop the Moon going communist when we are losing Asia to them" and "who needs to spend all this money on rockets when we have Americans starving to death right here on the ground".

While the space race is important to guys like us, our fathers and our grandfathers, all of whom have at least an inkling of ballistic science, large political groups in both the USSR and the USA did not at the time give a fig about who was first in achieving something in orbit or beyond. This is why the Soviets never really entered into the space race in the first place in OTL. So I am really wondering why enough people care for a sustained expensive Lunar program in this TL. After all, both sides can still say "the space race is still going and we are winning" with just a space station program, just like they did in OTL.

Not to say that the US and USSR can't talk each-other into a serious space marathon - after all they effectively talked themselves into a much larger, more expensive and more useless nuclear arms race. I am just interested in seeing the reasoning of the two powers explored would be very interesting.

fasquardon
 
Both sides could argue it as the ultimate bunker in case of nuclear war.

They'd need to really exploit the crater ice to be self sustaining, and need a way to return to earth to repopulate it. Of course both of those could be left problems for later people to solve.
 
The Soviets landing on the Moon means that NASA does have somewhat larger budget. Enough to support the development of LESA ($1.45 billion in 1968 dollars).

The lack of any Space Shuttle development cost also frees up atleast $500 million/year for the Extended Skylab Program.

I agree that in the stagflation of the 70s and Cold War enviroment there isn't a huge push from the public. But the cost isn't that significant. The Race has fizzled out as this point and you aren't likely to see anymore than these two manned programs for a while. Does that satisfy your question?
 
Actually, what I think may happen during the 1980's is that instead of a big Space Shuttle carrying cargo, we'll have small spaceplanes developed during the 1980's that carry up seven astronauts to the Soviet and American space stations. The American version will be launched on top of an uprated Saturn 1B rocket, while the Soviet version will be launched from the ATL version of the Proton rocket.

I'd like to see some spaceplanes, at least experimental ones to demonstrate the advantages of the concept--which mainly boil down to, lower acceleration during descent and greater control of the landing point, as well as the possibility of horizontal airplane-like landings--which mean, if you've returned to an airfield at the launch point, saving the cost of picking it up wherever in the ocean or tundra it came down in and hauling to some base. This is mostly important if you plan to reuse said spaceplane, which is not necessarily a given but one of the major reasons to try and develop them.

But our properly trained astronautical gurus on this site are generally dismissive of them, pointing out that a capsule will always be lighter for a given mission, that returning to a chosen landing site is largely a matter of scheduling reentry correctly, that unless we are so expanding space travel to orbit (or very long range suborbital flights, which are tantamount to orbit almost in terms of the speeds we need to attain and endure on reentry) to the degree that ticket-buying passengers are common our space travelers will continue to be elite, highly trained specimens of robust young to middle-aged adults who can take 5 or 6 G's of stress, and reuse of spacecraft, particularly the manned orbiters that will be a small fraction of the total launch stack in mass, is marginal and questionable...So if they are right an experimental program will bear out their skepticism and focus efforts on making more capable capsules and ingenuity in making the big launchers somewhat more efficient.

And I'm afraid that ITTL, you are off base as to which launchers could do the job, at least on the Soviet side. The Kremlin never approved continuing the UR-500 program so there is no Proton derivative of it here; its place is filled on the high end by the N-11, which we've just recently been told is not launching any more manned craft (though that's a decision that could easily be reversed) and I guess on the low end by stretches of the old Semyorka/R-7 family. Now in OTL these stretches were minimal, involving increasing payloads to orbit by a few tons at most, and this may reflect limits in the design that are reached by the existing designs. In that case perhaps they'd look instead to downsizing the N-11 further; I recently wondered what would happen if we dropped both the lower stages off the N-1 and got answers in the ballpark of an R-7 performance, so that's a viable direction to go. All we know is, not a Proton, and given the Proton's hypergolic fuels I say Thank God for that.

On the American side--well, we've gotten teasers that the Americans are developing something intermediate, but we haven't been told what. Those of us who are deeply impressed with e of pi & Workable Goblin's work with their take on a Saturn 1C, leading to the Multibody family, can hardly imagine a superior or even comparable alternative to these, and pretty much replicating their work with a 1C is entirely in the cards here, since the F-1A and J-2S engines which were the key to them are being built and used for the Saturn VB. But perhaps the authors here have something quite different up their sleeves, we don't know yet.

Just replicating the capabilities of the Saturn 1B, without surpassing it, leaves quite a launch vehicle.

On the other hand, the Saturns in general were criticized for being expensive. Well, if you want to launch 100 tons and more to low Earth orbit, obviously you need a big rocket and it isn't clear to me how much the admittedly high price tag of a Saturn V launch is due simply to the fact that it's 5 or 6 times bigger than anything you need for any more mundane purpose than Moon missions; I think the critics are saying it is pricy even if we divide the cost by 6, that is alternative rockets with proven economics could, with multiple launches, loft the same payload for a lower overall price. If the latter is true, I think it is mainly a matter of economics of scale--the smaller workhorse rocket is called upon to play many roles and so it is produced in a larger volume and on a more regular basis, hence can profitably be provided to the agencies that use it at a lower sticker price.

What is this competitive workhorse? OTL, it was none other than the Titan family, starting with a scarcely altered Titan II ICBM that served to loft the Gemini capsules into orbit, to be followed up by the solid-boosted Titan III originally designed--well, precisely to put a spaceplane, namely Dyna-Soar aka X-20 into orbit, later repurposed for MOL and Big Gemini. None of these dreamed of manned Air Force missions ever flew OTL and they were probably cancelled ITTL as well, for the same reasons, although the question of why Big Gemini, perhaps launched on a Saturn 1B instead of a Titan III, was ruled out would be an interesting passage for the authors to shine some light on.

As someone who looks askance on hypergolic launchers, I'd be glad to see the Titan option bypassed for manned spaceflight myself. But I can't deny that OTL on both sides of the Iron Curtain hypergolic rockets, namely the Protons and the Titans, were indeed the classic workhorses of both superpowers when they wanted to launch something moderately heavy and unmanned. I'd rather see all scheduled launches of payloads, manned and unmanned alike, replaced by ker-lox or other alternatives to hypergolics, reserving these for orbital maneuvering and landing and takeoff from small bodies like the Moon, and even there replaced if at all possible--but the thing is, unless one could demonstrate that kerosene-hydrogen peroxide launchers were competitive with hypergolics for weapons purposes (that is, missiles), the hypergols win in that application except insofar as solid rockets can replace them. And procurements for operational weapons systems are going to be large, larger than all but the most grandiose space program, so the economics of scale favor the hypergols (unless we can replace them with peroxide-kerosine, as the theoretical numbers suggest to me we ought to be able to but the real engine development I've been able to track down leaves in some doubt). The hypergolic missiles can sit in storage, waiting to be launched at a moment's notice with relatively minimal maintenance, almost like solids and superior to them in some ways; you can't do that with liquid oxygen as the oxidant.

So if both sides wind up avoiding dependency on hypergolics I'd call that a minor miracle, one that would please me, but not necessarily the respective offices of management and budget, nor the lobbying axis of the military and their hypergolic-supplying contractors who will be a force to reckon with, in Washington or Moscow.

But we could wind up with an amusing reversal with the Soviets launching everything into orbit on various ker-lox rockets and the Americans falling back on Titan derivatives.:rolleyes:

For what it's worth, I think McNamara did the right thing in canceling Dyna-Soar as an Air Force project--I have yet to hear of a plausible explanation what its military mission would have been. What I wish is that NASA had been given the mandate, and enhanced budget, to develop it instead, launching it on Saturn 1B or some successor thereof. It is NASA's job, as successor to the old National Advisory Committee on Aeronautics (NACA) to push the theoretical frontiers of flight back with experimental craft, and undertake the cost of testing out various out-there concepts to see which ones prove worth pursuing--and that is what Dyna-Soar might have accomplished. If proving and improving the technology led to a plausible Air Force mission, that would be the time for the Pentagon to then order such a craft. Meanwhile perhaps Dyna-Soar would indeed lead to cost-effective improvements in the civil space program and conceivably to practical suborbital commercial flight for paying passengers.

OTL, before the Politburo got spooked by reports that the STS, which the Air Force had reluctantly agreed to back provided it met some extreme specifications they laid out, would indeed have unspecified military capabilities and therefore decided to play it safe by replicating it, at budget-breaking cost, the Soviets were busily working on several quite different approaches to spaceplanes and/or reusuable spacecraft. If there is no STS here, I daresay that at least some of these alternative approaches will get some funding from the Kremlin and result in hardware, perhaps going beyond OTL to manned orbital missions on some of them (OTL a couple full-sized Burans were launched and landed, automatically, but never piloted)--and if the Soviets succeed in that, presumably there will be an American lobby that seeks to catch up, or better yet preempt them with American designs. But whether they are suitable replacements for Apollo or a belated restart of Big Gemini as orbital shuttle craft for manned missions remains to be seen.
 
I'd like to see some spaceplanes, at least experimental ones to demonstrate the advantages of the concept--which mainly boil down to, lower acceleration during descent and greater control of the landing point, as well as the possibility of horizontal airplane-like landings--which mean, if you've returned to an airfield at the launch point, saving the cost of picking it up wherever in the ocean or tundra it came down in and hauling to some base. This is mostly important if you plan to reuse said spaceplane, which is not necessarily a given but one of the major reasons to try and develop them.
I'l just mention this breifly. The X-15 was the first spaceplane in this TL. It experienced the same program as it did in OTL.
But our properly trained astronautical gurus on this site are generally dismissive of them, pointing out that a capsule will always be lighter for a given mission, that returning to a chosen landing site is largely a matter of scheduling reentry correctly, that unless we are so expanding space travel to orbit (or very long range suborbital flights, which are tantamount to orbit almost in terms of the speeds we need to attain and endure on reentry) to the degree that ticket-buying passengers are common our space travelers will continue to be elite, highly trained specimens of robust young to middle-aged adults who can take 5 or 6 G's of stress, and reuse of spacecraft, particularly the manned orbiters that will be a small fraction of the total launch stack in mass, is marginal and questionable...So if they are right an experimental program will bear out their skepticism and focus efforts on making more capable capsules and ingenuity in making the big launchers somewhat more efficient.
This is correct.
And I'm afraid that ITTL, you are off base as to which launchers could do the job, at least on the Soviet side. The Kremlin never approved continuing the UR-500 program so there is no Proton derivative of it here; its place is filled on the high end by the N-11, which we've just recently been told is not launching any more manned craft (though that's a decision that could easily be reversed) and I guess on the low end by stretches of the old Semyorka/R-7 family. Now in OTL these stretches were minimal, involving increasing payloads to orbit by a few tons at most, and this may reflect limits in the design that are reached by the existing designs. In that case perhaps they'd look instead to downsizing the N-11 further; I recently wondered what would happen if we dropped both the lower stages off the N-1 and got answers in the ballpark of an R-7 performance, so that's a viable direction to go. All we know is, not a Proton, and given the Proton's hypergolic fuels I say Thank God for that.
The N-11 is man-rated and could launch a manned spacecraft at anytime. It doesn't because there is currently no manned mission that would benifit from utilizing it as a launch vehicle. The Soviets no longer perform circumlunar L1 (Zond) flights nor do they still launch the Soyuz LOK into LEO for testflights. The R-7 is sufficient for Space Station missions and the N1 is required for lunar landing missions.

On the American side--well, we've gotten teasers that the Americans are developing something intermediate, but we haven't been told what. Those of us who are deeply impressed with e of pi & Workable Goblin's work with their take on a Saturn 1C, leading to the Multibody family, can hardly imagine a superior or even comparable alternative to these, and pretty much replicating their work with a 1C is entirely in the cards here, since the F-1A and J-2S engines which were the key to them are being built and used for the Saturn VB. But perhaps the authors here have something quite different up their sleeves, we don't know yet.
I just love secrets.:D

For what it's worth, I think McNamara did the right thing in canceling Dyna-Soar as an Air Force project--I have yet to hear of a plausible explanation what its military mission would have been. What I wish is that NASA had been given the mandate, and enhanced budget, to develop it instead, launching it on Saturn 1B or some successor thereof. It is NASA's job, as successor to the old National Advisory Committee on Aeronautics (NACA) to push the theoretical frontiers of flight back with experimental craft, and undertake the cost of testing out various out-there concepts to see which ones prove worth pursuing--and that is what Dyna-Soar might have accomplished. If proving and improving the technology led to a plausible Air Force mission, that would be the time for the Pentagon to then order such a craft. Meanwhile perhaps Dyna-Soar would indeed lead to cost-effective improvements in the civil space program and conceivably to practical suborbital commercial flight for paying passengers.
It was pretty close to completion however. Only eight months before drop tests from a B-52 and first manned flight in 1966.

As for the rest I neither confirm nor deny anything. No spoilers, no sneeks peeks, sorry!:p
 
The Soviets landing on the Moon means that NASA does have somewhat larger budget. Enough to support the development of LESA ($1.45 billion in 1968 dollars).

The lack of any Space Shuttle development cost also frees up atleast $500 million/year for the Extended Skylab Program.

I agree that in the stagflation of the 70s and Cold War enviroment there isn't a huge push from the public. But the cost isn't that significant. The Race has fizzled out as this point and you aren't likely to see anymore than these two manned programs for a while. Does that satisfy your question?

LESA is cheaper to develop than I would have expected.

I take it you are imagining a NASA budget that continues into the 70s with less funding than peak in the 60s, but without the sharp fall that happened in OTL?

And it doesn't really satisfy my question. Really what I am hankering for is an in-depth analysis of the economics and politics of the space programs. That said, the TL is great as it is, so if you have the inspiration to write such in depth installments, great, if not, don't worry about leaving them off stage. Write what you love, and leave the rest to the audience to debate among themselves. :D

What is this competitive workhorse?

The Saturn V is pretty economical in terms of cost/kilo. In 2014 dollars it was about $10,000 per kilo to LEO. That's less than the Titan IV and the Shuttle (so one of the most economical of the American rockets), but much more (double the price) of the Proton's cost/kilo to LEO.

The problem with the Saturn V is the cost/launch - estimated at $185 million in 1969 ($1.19 billion in 2014).

Note that this doesn't take into account total program cost - that's just the cost of manufacturing and lanching the rocket, so whatever rocket you use, you have to maintain the site, the factories, the control center, the recovery fleet, pay all the workers etc. year round. So in real economics, it makes alot more sense to have smaller rockets that launch more often, even (as with the Titan IV) when they are over-expensive rockets.

The other problem with the Saturn V is the Titan and politics - the Airforce was absolutely determined to maintain its own rocket and launch capacity. OTL this was undoubtedly the better choice, as NASA was not a dependable partner (for deep-seated political reasons). So whether or not NASA adopts launchers for long-term use in the Titan III or IV range, the Airforce will be throwing everything it can into the battle to have the Titan III & IV. Since the Airforce supplies most of the demand for payloads in that range, this will mean that the NASA rockets (likely the Delta and the Saturn IVB, though we may see others developed), would be deprived of most of the demand they could claim, and thus have higher program costs than if it were able to spread its costs over the full range of American demand. Additionally, the Titans can draw on the strategic rocket program to spread its own costs, and also fight Saturn V technology with the claim that it is more "American" than the very German Saturn V.

Though, if there is no Space Shuttle, I can imagine that Airforce/NASA relations would be warmer. I imagine that would just make the battles between the two less grim, but no less earnest.

Speaking of developing smaller rockets, I was reading about this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soyuz-2-1v

It gives me shiny utopian visions of a Russian space program with N1 techology making the smallest to the largest launch vehicles efficient and subject to more economies of scale...

fasquardon
 
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I wonder if NASA plans for the LESA missions to gradually begin doing some more serious digging to make tunnels underground. Long term fully buried infrastructure for the bulk of any lunar "colony" is the only way to go, only limited stuff above ground. Recycling "waste" will allow you to get "dirt" to use some of these tunnels for growing food, which also helps recycle CO2 - perhaps 10-20 square meters of growing plants will support one person with CO2 to O2, and also recycle water which can be extracted from the atmosphere.
 
Bravo. Well done and I appreciate the effort.

I am interested to seem how this affects US Politics. Perhaps a R-Revolution still happens but the R buildup is a space one and not a military one.

Also very very interested to see how the tech invented to do all this affects things back home. Lunar habitats could and would be re-purposed for mineral, oil or gold exploration.

I imagine some guy mining Bearing Sea Gold in a defective module in 1990!!!
 
Talk of shuttles, space planes etc has got me rethinking reusable vessels again. If I remember correctly there was a proposed design (which never got anywhere) that used the mass produced (OK, batch produced, you know what I mean) rockets from the Saturn V to make a fairly cheap, large, small payload, RLV rocket. It was over powered, very light on payload, but could go up and come back and land and be re-used. Did that design get proposed here too? If so did anyone pick up on it at all? Or perhaps did some espionage take the concept to Russia?

Imagine taking the N-11 (or something very similar), adding parachutes to the first stage so it could could be recovered (most of the time, depending on how hard it lands/splashes down), then under-rate the payload for the second stage so it could also have chutes for landing and reserve enough fuel to de-orbit. Probably have to eject the rocket engines and have a heat shield on the underside of that spherical fuel tank, but it might work. Given the sloped side of the rocket there you could have fold down landing struts that would actually be shielded during re-entry. Relying on parachutes instead of rocket assist landing or anything complicated would cut down on weight (chutes weight a fair bit to carry rockets, even though the rocket would be light after the fuel is used up) and probably would the way the Soviets would go if they did try something like this. But if they did, they could actually get a mostly re-usable rocket, even if it likely would cost a fair bit to re-furbish each one before it was used again.

In practice it might actually slow down rocket launches, with the time taken to bring the rocket back to base, ensure they are in working order, then ship them to the pad again, but I would think it would be cheaper. With enough in stock you could have a fairly cheap cyclic system.
 
Talk of shuttles, space planes etc has got me rethinking reusable vessels again. If I remember correctly there was a proposed design (which never got anywhere) that used the mass produced (OK, batch produced, you know what I mean) rockets from the Saturn V to make a fairly cheap, large, small payload, RLV rocket. It was over powered, very light on payload, but could go up and come back and land and be re-used. Did that design get proposed here too? If so did anyone pick up on it at all? Or perhaps did some espionage take the concept to Russia?
I've read explorations of this sort of concept before, and the conclusion in those cases was that the recovery systems eat up so much rocket performance that such rockets are not cost-effective compared to throw-away rockets.

fasquardon
 
I've read explorations of this sort of concept before, and the conclusion in those cases was that the recovery systems eat up so much rocket performance that such rockets are not cost-effective compared to throw-away rockets.

fasquardon
Depends on your reuse system. Solids are really, really hard to reuse (see: Shuttle) since they have to be entirely dis-assembled and have new fuel grains cast into them. However, a liquid rocket and its tanks are actually (mechanically) far simpler than a jet engine, and designed right they can be just as reusable. It's very hard to get a reusable single-stage-to-orbit system (at least without an airbreathing engine like Skylon) but a reusable two-stage-to-orbit system is pretty simple. Given that 95% or so of the cost of a launch lies in the hardware, an actual reusable system (unlike OTL's Shuttle) has the potential for a serious reduction in cost to orbit. Start with the first stage, since that's both not high enough to face hardcore entry heating and the least sensitive to increases in mass, and you can cut the cost per kilogram of a launch in half or more provided the system can be quickly turned around without major overhaul. Second stage is trickier and requires more attention, but it's also doable, and with that, you can cut launch costs down to anywhere from 10% to 3% of a conventional expendable rocket.

However, the key is always aiming for rapid and total reuse, and starting with the stages that are easiest to make reusable.
 
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The success of the first LESA mission by NASA had provided them with a much-needed boost in both morale and public support. But now they had to keep a hold of their support, and one of the biggest difficulties they faced in this department had little to do with their missions, but rather the astronauts they sent to do them. Even by the late-70’s, they (the astronauts that flew) all comprised of young to middle-aged white men who (other than their last selection) had military backgrounds. The management knew that they needed to expand it to include minority groups, and women if they wished to maintain good public relations. That was why the 1977 selection was made to give heavy emphasis towards said groups, a group of 12 that contained their first four women, their first African Americans amongst others.
nasa-16.jpg

The early look of NASA astronauts prior to 1977

Though while this new group was being trained to handle the rigours of working in low-and-microgravity environments, they needed their current active astronauts to remain in the rotation to maintain their space faring capability, as well as to provide a mix between rookie and veteran once they new group was ready to fly. Not a particularly simple task seeing that a number of them had since retired from NASA, and the remaining ones were not getting any younger.

As for their missions, the next LESA mission was underway. Unlike the USSR who were sending all of their equipment to the one site, NASA had elected to send each LESA Surface Habitat to a different location to extensively study each part of the Lunar Surface. Their next chosen site was the Torrecelli Crater, at the North-Western portion of the Mare Nectaris, and just a stone’s throw from the Mare Tranquillitatis.
images

This crew would spend 70 days on the Lunar Surface, and so would experience the Lunar Night twice. Based on the experience with the first LESA mission, to help with the confinement in their small habitat, extra experiments were included for the long lunar night, enough to keep them occupied but also few enough to permit them free time.
484px-LESA0303.png

The April of 1977 saw the crew of three land within walking distance of their shelter, and by the next day they were ready to get to work. By day they used the long range rover to transit along the bleak landscape, setting up experiments and collecting samples for study, both in their habitat and back on Earth. By night they were busy with maintenance work on their shelter, conducting studies, experiments with a small selection of their samples (the smaller ones that they could isolate easily) along with a few other medical and environmental tests, and when doing neither they occupied themselves with a chosen selection of entertainment that they had brought with them.

But even as their LESA missions were moving along comfortably, with their Skylab programme, there had been a serious flaw that they had known about for some time. The Saturn IB booster that they used to take the Apollo CSM into LEO was an expensive LV to launch ($100,000,000 in 1965 USD), but certain critical parts needed for its first stage manufacture were no longer available (namely the Redstone and Jupiter tanks for its Kerosene fuel and Liquid Oxygen). In short, they needed a new launch vehicle for their manned LEO missions.

But there was a whole new problem with that. New launch vehicles cost money to design and develop, money that they could scarcely afford with both Skylab and LESA eating up significant portions of their budget. It soon became clear that the only way they had a realistic chance of securing one was if they could obtain support from another group, the USAF.
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The USAF was responsible for the military application of rocket technology, chiefly in the forms of military spy satellites and ballistic missiles. To achieve this, their launch vehicle of choice was the Titan series, their hypergolic rocket stages and solid boosters making missiles that could be launch very quickly if the order was ever given. Vital for a second-strike scenario. These LVs had also seen use by NASA at times, for their Gemini Programme in the 1960’s and interplanetary missions where their higher BEO ability made them the vehicle of choice. If NASA and the USAF could agree on a common LV for use by the both of them, there was a very high chance that they could see its approval by Congress.

titan3l2.gif
titan3l4.gif

Titan 4-2 and 4-4, the latter with a conceptual spaceplane as its payload

By the early 1970’s they had an agreed design. While NASA ran through its remaining stock of Saturn IBs in the interim, they would work on the new LV that would both replace it and serve US military requirements. This new LV became known as the Titan 4, with its core stage stretched from 120’ to 150’ and lengthened to (almost) match the length of the Titan UA1207. Able to use these lengthened boosters (which had first been developed for the Titan MOL), and by the use of dummy segments that would allow the 5-segment UA1205s to be swapped out easily for when the lower payload requirement was the optimal choice. By mixing and matching the 5 and 7 segment SRBs on the Titan 4, it would meet all the requirements that NASA and the USAF could think of for it.
 
Depends on your reuse system. Solids are really, really hard to reuse (see: Shuttle) since they have to be entirely dis-assembled and have new fuel grains cast into them. However, a liquid rocket and its tanks are actually (mechanically) far simpler than a jet engine, and designed right they can be just as reusable. It's very hard to get a reusable single-stage-to-orbit system (at least without an airbreathing engine like Skylon) but a reusable two-stage-to-orbit system is pretty simple. Given that 95% or so of the cost of a launch lies in the hardware, an actual reusable system (unlike OTL's Shuttle) has the potential for a serious reduction in cost to orbit. Start with the first stage, since that's both not high enough to face hardcore entry heating and the least sensitive to increases in mass, and you can cut the cost per kilogram of a launch in half or more provided the system can be quickly turned around without major overhaul. Second stage is trickier and requires more attention, but it's also doable, and with that, you can cut launch costs down to anywhere from 10% to 3% of a conventional expendable rocket.

However, the key is always aiming for rapid and total reuse, and starting with the stages that are easiest to make reusable.

Plus you can aim for one section to be reusable at first, with the aim of fine tuning, (changing engines for a slightly more efficient model later etc) to eventually get fully reusable. For example, if the first stage of N-11 is re-usable, and the second stage is not, but provisions are made ahead of time for it to be reserviced if improvements are made later on, you can just re-enter with the payload as before. The first stage re-usable is a huge savings, even if it's hard landing and not every one survives re-entry. Using N-11 as a base, simply reducing the payload carried to orbit, using this load to allow some sort of retrieval system for the 1st stage (parachutes being the simplest, though they are weighty. Perhaps a combination chutes with solid rockets for final touchdown like the Russians use on their current capsules), you would save an awful lot of money. Similarly, if the N-1 is identical as standard, but it's first stage (what isn't used in the N-11) has some kind of landing capability, moon shots would go down in price considerably.

Whether the Soviets would actually be able to pull off reusability every time (at least at first, due to their habit of using actual launches to 'test' things) is a bit up in the air. However, if they don't tell anyone it is planned to be reusable (a standard Soviet tactic) and then it works they can refine it, then finally reveal they have got a new improvement once it's proven to work reliably a few times in a row.
 
I confess, I am puzzled why recoverable first stages haven't made more headway in the real world. Anyone know why?

Very interesting that you have NASA going for the Titan in this TL. Will the Titan IV in TTL be much the same as the Titan IV of OTL?

fasquardon
 
I confess, I am puzzled why recoverable first stages haven't made more headway in the real world. Anyone know why?

I would think a combo of dev. costs and lack of will where it's needed would be the key reasons.


Very interesting that you have NASA going for the Titan in this TL. Will the Titan IV in TTL be much the same as the Titan IV of OTL?

fasquardon

Nope. The OTL Titan IV was a stretched Titan III, but only in length (to better fit the UA1207 SRBs AFAIK). TTL's Titan IV has also been widened from 120 in to 150 in, with double the number of core stage engines.
 
Nope. The OTL Titan IV was a stretched Titan III, but only in length (to better fit the UA1207 SRBs AFAIK). TTL's Titan IV has also been widened from 120 in to 150 in, with double the number of core stage engines.
Ohhh. Interesting. Look forward to seeing what the new beast shall be then...

fasquardon
 
I would think a combo of dev. costs and lack of will where it's needed would be the key reasons.
Essentially this. The reuse of first stages, prior to the development of more advanced computers, was thought to require the presence of a flight crew on-board. That adds a lot of complexity. Also, despite being the logical place to start, a flyback booster hasn't ever really been as "sexy" as a reusable orbital vehicle--see Shuttle, where the crew vehicle was heavy and reusable, but the entire stack was expendable (or, with the solids, mildly reusable, but thanks to being solid, they were actually worse for it). Shuttle, for all its faults, has been one of the few full-scale development programs in the history of spaceflight aimed at an RLV, but it had critical compromises that meant the final product fell far short of the goal. Most other development (with the glaring and quite noticeable exception of SpaceX) has been aimed at evolutionary reductions of cost, or even ignored cost considerations entirely in favor of maximizing payload of expendable vehicles.
 
I confess, I am puzzled why recoverable first stages haven't made more headway in the real world. Anyone know why?

Very interesting that you have NASA going for the Titan in this TL. Will the Titan IV in TTL be much the same as the Titan IV of OTL?

fasquardon

The big issue with recoverable first stages is that really all involve splashing down into the Ocean. Salt Water has a bad habit of affecting engines, tanks etc. This is less of a problem with solid rocket engines, they are less complicated than Liquid fuel engines. This is why it worked with the Shuttle Solid Rocket Boosters. Also this is why SpaceX has been pushing hard to achieve landing of the Falcon 9 1st stage on the ground.
 
. Most other development (with the glaring and quite noticeable exception of SpaceX) has been aimed at evolutionary reductions of cost, or even ignored cost considerations entirely in favor of maximizing payload of expendable vehicles.

I wonder what SpaceX knows that these other companies don't. It isn't like ULA doesn't have smart engineers working for them also. I just wonder if ULA is soconservative and so used to getting govt money that they don't want to take any risk that the US govt isn't paying for.
 
I wonder what SpaceX knows that these other companies don't. It isn't like ULA doesn't have smart engineers working for them also. I just wonder if ULA is so conservative and so used to getting govt money that they don't want to take any risk that the US govt isn't paying for.
Basically, that's the story. Restarting a rocket and flying it back to base or putting wings and some turbines on one and doing a long turn and flight isn't a showstopper, and you can do it without pushing to envelope to the breaking point on mass margins and the like. I've seen flyback booster studies for Shuttle by both companies involved in ULA, they just didn't want to do it without the nod from the USAF or NASA--and more critically the financial support for taking the risk. SpaceX has had a lot of support in getting off the ground, but the reuse stuff is all on its own dime--and its own risk.
 
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