Lands of Ice and Mice: An Alternate History of the Thule

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So, the Thule have invented Yahoo! Answers. :D

That's quite cute and not far off.

Actually, my inspiration was the Newton/Hook correspondence of the 18th century, and the general period of ferment and inquiry during this time. We take these things for granted now. But once upon a time the only way for two wise men to have a conversation was to travel to meet.

The ability to exchange thoughts and ideas over great distances without the need to congregate or travel directly was often revolutionary. Ease of discussion meant more discussion, more communication, more ferment. Isaac Newton would almost certainly not have made his advances without the opportunity to discuss and debate through colleagues. 'Men of Letters' in those days was a potent and meaningful term.

18th and 19th century Europe, through its emerging postal systems was in its way a precursor to the braided information system we see now in the world wide web. Nor was it the first such occasion - I think that we see evidence of similar phenomena in the golden/literate ages of Greece and Rome, a difference being, of course that 'postal' or message carrying systems were not nearly as sophisticated.

In the case of the Thule here, the relative newness of the writing and transmission system, and its utter lack of sophistication, allowed it the flexibility to create a kind of 'party line' correspondence, simply because rules hadn't fully formalized. Essentially, right question in the right locations for the right people to get a significant debate going.

In the long run, I think it'll be something of a missed opportunity, because the system of inquiry and exploration that emerges around Walrus will have a hard time generalizing, which will be a shame, because if they were able to understand the intellectual tool they had created and apply it effectively elsewhere, they could get a lot further. As it is, they'll apply it somewhat.
 
DValdron said:
In the long run, I think it'll be something of a missed opportunity, because the system of inquiry and exploration that emerges around Walrus will have a hard time generalizing, which will be a shame, because if they were able to understand the intellectual tool they had created and apply it effectively elsewhere, they could get a lot further. As it is, they'll apply it somewhat.

That's too bad. Information really is power, but I guess the Thule don't quite have the infrastructure to really create an equivalent of the postal system and the information exchange that could trigger.
 
Hurray walruses!
Loved it. It seems the Thule are taking baby steps toward empiricism (that advice you gave me about making walruses happy through song DID NOT WORK. You owe me a a new flute. Also a new apprentice.).

The timing is getting increasingly dire, though. How far can coordinated projects like this continue until the Plague kills everyone?
 
I am the Walrus, Literacy and Domestication Among the Thule, Part Three

The Walrus ‘culture’ which emerges is in many ways a moving target. Walrus populations had been artificially depressed, evicted from much of their range, bounced back. But the revitalized population was in many ways different from the state of nature.

Habitat increased dramatically beyond the state of nature. The emerging Thule custom of making ice holes allowed Walrus, as well as other sea mammals to survive and thrive in and around the Canadian archipelago in isolated local communities.

Local variation was the rule, and it was often a changing or evolving local variation. An abandoned haul out site might be host to a few select transplanted Walrus infants or juveniles at the beginning of the the first generation, to dozens in the second human generation, and hundreds going into the third generation. As numbers crew, Walrus shifted slowly from a protected ‘holy’ animal, to a community which was steadily, though carefully harvested in a manner not to unlike Musk Ox or Caribou.

In the revitalized haul outs, populations were often isolated for the first couple of generations. Numbers were not sufficient that population pressures would force the animals to roam to new territories. Instead, when animals did move from one haul out site to another, it was usually through human intervention, either transporting infants or harassing juveniles.

The result tended to be a certain amount of uniformity in many of the re-established Walrus communities - isolated founder populations, reinforced by unusually restricted numbers of males, tended to result in reinforcements of traits. The new local walrus communities tended to be genetically narrow and to strongly express traits. What traits were expressed varied from haul out to haul out.

One trait which spread widely, although with considerable variation, were varying degrees of human toleration. In part, this was because the animals most successfully transplanted, particularly those transplanted the furthest distances, tended to be the ones with the highest natural tolerance. In part it was because the animals associated with humans from very early ages. In part, as we’ve noted, because the most aggressive and hostile animals tended to be killed before they could breed much.

But local differences, even in remote locations, were strong. On some haul outs, a man or woman could walk normally through the community, with little more concern than to make sure you didn’t step on one. The individuals of a community might be so placid and easily handled that one might imagine Walrus as a domesticated species.

On an adjacent haul out, coming within twenty yards of a community was an invitation to be attacked. Character and temperament tended to be consistent within a community, but varied widely between communities. Here Walrus would be seen as a dangerous managed species. In still other areas, they were completely wild, dealt with warily, and harvested carefully.

Another consistent though highly variable factor tended to be smaller walruses. In part, the naturally smaller infants or juveniles tended to be less aggressive and easier to transport. But other factors were at play. Females who bred earlier rather than later tended to be smaller, or to stunt their growth with early birthing. More stunted females lead to smaller infants, which produced relatively smaller adults.

But then, other factors came into play. Merging in some areas with relic enclaves of wild populations tended to throw wild cards into the mix. In areas like Baffin, Labrador, Greenland or the Alaskan and Bering Coasts, the recolonized haul outs tended to be made up of harassed juveniles and roaming wild adults. Even in remote areas, relatively plentiful food supply and lack of competition allowed more opportunity to grow and mature. In some areas, infants or juveniles of Atlantic and Pacific subspecies were put together in a haul out, and would grow up to hybridize, leading to diverse and complex expressions of traits in different communities.

As the characters and temperment of different haul out communities developed and diverged, and as these differences came to be understood in the 1500's, there was increasing interest in and effort to manipulate the populations. Again, this was inspired by the lessons learned in breeding land domesticates.

Of course, in practical terms it was impossible to breed Walrus the way you bred Caribou or Musk Ox. Even at its most aggressive management, Thule had far less control over Walrus. There was no option of selectively breeding individuals. At best, we had techniques where animals tending to express the most undesirable traits would be killed. At times, entire haul out sites might be slaughtered. Animals from haul outs which seemed to have the most desirable qualities would be transferred to or driven to other haul out sites in the hopes that their qualities would be introduced to the new communities... if they survived. The approach available to the Thule was largely one of attempting to shape communities rather than breed individuals. Clearly it would be a much slower and more uncertain process.

Overall, the result was that every haul out was its own ongoing experiment, the population of which, the nature of that population, and their handling and relationships or lack of relatlionships with local humans changing from place to place and year to year.
 
 
That's quite cute and not far off.

Actually, my inspiration was the Newton/Hook correspondence of the 18th century, and the general period of ferment and inquiry during this time. We take these things for granted now. But once upon a time the only way for two wise men to have a conversation was to travel to meet.

The ability to exchange thoughts and ideas over great distances without the need to congregate or travel directly was often revolutionary. Ease of discussion meant more discussion, more communication, more ferment. Isaac Newton would almost certainly not have made his advances without the opportunity to discuss and debate through colleagues. 'Men of Letters' in those days was a potent and meaningful term.

18th and 19th century Europe, through its emerging postal systems was in its way a precursor to the braided information system we see now in the world wide web. Nor was it the first such occasion - I think that we see evidence of similar phenomena in the golden/literate ages of Greece and Rome, a difference being, of course that 'postal' or message carrying systems were not nearly as sophisticated.

In the case of the Thule here, the relative newness of the writing and transmission system, and its utter lack of sophistication, allowed it the flexibility to create a kind of 'party line' correspondence, simply because rules hadn't fully formalized. Essentially, right question in the right locations for the right people to get a significant debate going.

In the long run, I think it'll be something of a missed opportunity, because the system of inquiry and exploration that emerges around Walrus will have a hard time generalizing, which will be a shame, because if they were able to understand the intellectual tool they had created and apply it effectively elsewhere, they could get a lot further. As it is, they'll apply it somewhat.

Well, the word corresponding to "Epistle" ("letter") came to become a standard "genre" for treatises inquiring a giving subject in Greek, Latin, and, even more so, Arabic.
This kind of stuff was rather big in Classical Islam, and, I gather, in India as well, following a pattern already established in Antiquity.
But your "Walrus Debate" seems really closer to a Dawn Civilization Internet debate. ;).
 
I am the Walrus, Literacy and Domestication Among the Thule, Part Four

The first Thule to ride a Walrus is K’Eyush, a local Shaman who is able to ride upon the back a cow she has personally raised from infancy. The animal is placid of temperament and well tamed. It will swim on the surface as she rides on its back. The innovation of riding Caribou is well established by this time, and K’Eyush has clearly generalized this to Walrus. She has no harness or bridle and no saddle, he does not control the path or progress of the animal.

Her first ride is undoubtedly out of the sight of witnesses, a mixture of boldness and foolishness. At some point, she grows confident enough to announce her ‘ability’ to his community, and to his colleagues in correspondence. The event is almost miraculous, a stunning demonstration of mystic or supernatural ability. Pilgrims begin to congregate, and other Shamans travel great distances to witness this feat.

We do not know the name of the second man or woman to ride a Walrus, or of the third. We do know the name of the first to die doing so. Sirmiq, who having successfully ridden once, attempts to mount on land, only to have his beast turn on him and rip him limb from limb with its tusks. We know the name of the second to die, Okauyuk, when his mount dives on him, dragging him to the bottom tangled in a crude harness.

Although utterly meaningless in any practical sense, the act of riding a Walrus as you would a Caribou is far too supernaturally potent to simply ignore. Sculptures and rock drawings come to universally depict coastal Shaman’s as riding Walrus, even on land. One simply cannot be acknowledged as a Shaman in some areas unless one can demonstrate having ridden one at least once. In other areas where locals are more exacting, the feat must be performed regularly.

Simple survival instinct impels innovation. Having culturally caught themselves up in a very, very bad idea, the continuing chains of correspondence, the coastal Shaman’s of the Walrus ‘network’ explored ways to do it and stay alive. Using developments with Caribou as a guide, bridles and harnesses are discussed, and when M comes up with a bridle which prevents the Walrus from diving, the innovation rapidly spreads. ‘Saddles’ or ‘cushions’ are tried and debated, inflated bladders are carried by some to escape drowning, which comes to be refined in some cases into a ‘vest for floating’. There are efforts to avoid hypothermia from immersion with watertight or waterproof garments or body grease.

Despite generations of efforts, Walrus remain dangerous and unpredictable animals. While some are tame and even affectionate, it is always a risky proposition. Over the decades there is a small but significant attrition among Shamans and an emerging caste Walrus handlers and harvesters. K’Eyush herself is eventually drowned.

In part because it is so dangerous, the act of Walrus riding is a potent demonstration of physical courage and spiritual prowess. The fact that it is a useless activity counts for little.

For the most part, Walrus riding is confined to relatively short surface jaunts. There are stories of great Shaman riding Walrus across large expanses of sea, but typically what happens is that the Shaman travels by boat most of the way, with a particularly tame Walrus following, and that just as they approach the destination, the Shaman will leave the boat to ride his charge in to shore.

Over time, of course, skills generalize. What is in one generation, the potent act of a magician, in two or three generations may become the foolish act of reckless youth, and a generation later a rite of passage for those chosen to handle the animals.

By the time of regular European contact, the practice is widespread enough and well developed enough that Europeans will carry stories back to their homelands, supplemented in many cases by tall tales received as fact.

As with everything, folklore and mystical tales abound. There are the stories of the Shaman Mequsaak known not for riding, but for standing straight atop the back of a great Walrus, which carries him everywhere on land or water. Mothers tell many stories of Mequsaak over the generations, almost all of the false or misattributed. But he was a historical Shaman who lived around 1500, and he did once stand on the back of a Walrus as it swam.... before falling off. In folklore K’Eyush leads herds of Walrus against her enemies, before eventually going down to live at the bottom of the sea

The notion of a Walrus cavalry, again inspired by emerging Caribou Cavalry, comes about as part fact, and part fiction. There are ambitious pioneers who try to take the practice of riding up to the next step, most of them die. There are warlords and kings, rulers of empires and towns, shamans who know more of politics than they do of the sea, who dream of such things and order its creation by fiat. At times there are half hearted attempts to comply with such fiats, or earnest but doomed attempts, and in some cases utter fabrications.

For those who know the subject matter well, its an amazingly bad idea. Useless, pointless, appallingly dangerous and all but impossible. But Walrus knowledge is often specialized to a particular caste of coastal shamans and Walrus harvesters, who for their own reasons, may be somewhat vague to others about the limitations of work with the animals. Walrus Cavalry becomes part of myth and folklore, part of common knowledge - something that exists for real, just a hundred miles away.

When Europeans sailors encounter Walrus with riders swimming up to their ships, they will be amazed. When they hear tails of Walrus cavalry, they will believe it and assume that this is what they have seen - not magicians demonstrating their prowess to what they see as a rival group of magicians in a sailing ship, but cavalry officers scouting. Inevitably reports and conflations will follow. The Walrus Cavalry will become an intrinsic part of the European image of the Thule.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Well, the word corresponding to "Epistle" ("letter") came to become a standard "genre" for treatises inquiring a giving subject in Greek, Latin, and, even more so, Arabic.
This kind of stuff was rather big in Classical Islam, and, I gather, in India as well, following a pattern already established in Antiquity.
But your "Walrus Debate" seems really closer to a Dawn Civilization Internet debate. ;).

Yep. Right time, right place, right question and right listeners. It comes about in part because literacy is so new and unsophisticated that there are no formal traditions to preclude it. The Thule have essentially stumbled onto crowdsourcing as a knowledge tool.

But as Twovultures points out, there isn't the infrastructure of any kind of postal system to sustain it, so it doesn't amount to much more than an occasional sputter.

Still, in this Universe, you can bet there's someone like Johnathan Edelstein doing a timeline where the Thule at this point evolve a kind of 'postal internet' which allows them to leap forward, confronting and challenging the Europeans on even terms.

Hope you enjoyed the nod to Walrus Cavalry.
 
Hmmm, that was a bit of a wall of text anyway, despite efforts to break it up.

It feels that the further I go into this, the slower it gets. I wonder if that happens to anyone else.
Just yesterday someone who has recently discovered Sparky' "2012 Ireland ISOT to 1912" said they were just starting (where it was a year ago, almost) by saying "I'm still on 1912!" 200 pages downthread, Sparky says "don't worry, me too!":p
Anyway, miss me?

Whenever your threads all die down, I always do.
 
Yep. Right time, right place, right question and right listeners. It comes about in part because literacy is so new and unsophisticated that there are no formal traditions to preclude it. The Thule have essentially stumbled onto crowdsourcing as a knowledge tool.

But as Twovultures points out, there isn't the infrastructure of any kind of postal system to sustain it, so it doesn't amount to much more than an occasional sputter.

Still, in this Universe, you can bet there's someone like Johnathan Edelstein doing a timeline where the Thule at this point evolve a kind of 'postal internet' which allows them to leap forward, confronting and challenging the Europeans on even terms.

Hope you enjoyed the nod to Walrus Cavalry.

Of course, I wonder if some actual use for it can be eventually found...
 

The Sandman

Banned
My guess?

Walrus cavalry will remain useless. Some of the developments from the attempts to ride walrus, on the other hand, might be useful. Waterproofing, harnesses, floats, and so on.

Maybe even the crude beginnings of diving bells, or at least a hose you can attach to a float topside and then use to breathe while you're on the bottom gathering clams or trying to retrieve valuables from the umiak that sank last year.

And goggles. Not sure how likely it is that the Thule have glassmaking to any degree, but it's something that would be incredibly useful in a wide range of activities.

Now, what would be really amusing (for a given value of amusing of course) is if any shamans decide that they can one-up the competition by riding some sort of whale.
 
Now, what would be really amusing (for a given value of amusing of course) is if any shamans decide that they can one-up the competition by riding some sort of whale.

Riding belugas with appropriate equipment MAY prove of some limited use, provided that belugas may be actually lead you to where you want to go, which is not a viable prospect for walruses I suppose.
I'd not try to ride orcas, no matter what the "Free Willy" film shows.
 
I think it'll be something of a missed opportunity, because the system of inquiry and exploration that emerges around Walrus will have a hard time generalizing,
Any particular reasons it would be hard to generalize?

It seems like a tradition of open ended queries and this kind of information build up should be easy. Only the actual topic of discussion changing.
 
My guess?

Walrus cavalry will remain useless.

Bingo.

Some of the developments from the attempts to ride walrus, on the other hand, might be useful. Waterproofing, harnesses, floats, and so on.

A lot of these things are adaptations of existing technology, just sort of specialized refinements. There may be some marginal application. But float bladders for instance, have been around for a long time and used in whaling. A 'float jacket' based on that may be an innovation.

Maybe even the crude beginnings of diving bells, or at least a hose you can attach to a float topside and then use to breathe while you're on the bottom gathering clams or trying to retrieve valuables from the umiak that sank last year.

Interesting idea but not likely.

And goggles. Not sure how likely it is that the Thule have glassmaking to any degree, but it's something that would be incredibly useful in a wide range of activities.

Glass making has a fairly long and complicated history. It's well outside of the scope of the Thule. Finding a route to any kind of useable glass would be an arbitrary wank, I feel.

Now, what would be really amusing (for a given value of amusing of course) is if any shamans decide that they can one-up the competition by riding some sort of whale.

Well, there's always some kind of reckless fool out to do something wicked dumb.

Walrus riding has special significance, because it was a vanished now legendary species in many areas, introduced or reintroduced in many areas through shamanic intersession. One thing about coastal shamans and the sea harvest is that it's much more unpredictable and reliable than agricultural harvest. The emphasis on mysticism is much heavier, the practical results are often hit and miss. So actually having a few Walrus around, and being able to do something remarkable with them is a pretty big 'cachet.'
 
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Any particular reasons it would be hard to generalize?

It seems like a tradition of open ended queries and this kind of information build up should be easy. Only the actual topic of discussion changing.

Do you spend a lot of time paying attention to spam? This is early in the history of Thule literacy, and it was a fairly narrowly focused query on a subject that there was actually a general interest waiting to be tapped, and along a geographical area which facilitated transmission - shores and coasts.
It's kind of a perfect storm situation.

There's no particular tradition or protocol. It's just ad hoc. What will happen is an accumulation of noise to signal, irrelevant open ended queries. There'll be breakdowns in transmission of messages, lacking a formal postal system. And relatively few 'perfect questions'.

You will get this kind of stuff happening, but on smaller scales, with less dramatic payoffs or results, on an ad hoc basis. They just never quite manage to achieve its potential.
 
"The villagers expect another 'demonstration' tomorrow and with my old cow dead, I truly fear for my life. At times I think we are all like poor Okauyuk, dragged to the freezing bottom tangled in the chords we so carefully knotted."

...anyway

Talk of different traits becoming fixed in different walrus populations got me to thinking.
Surely someone would notice that different haulouts have different kinds of walruses. There might be different kinds of spirits in those places, or, when someone sees transplanted populations mimic their progenitors, there must be spirits that "ride" the walruses, and spread from parent to child. Keeping track of which "riding spirits" or "heritance spirits" inhabit which populations could give shamans a pretty good grasp of Mendelian genetics.

Actually it's even less of a wank the more I think of it. Walruses are hardly the first animals the Thule have domesticated, and they are already developing models of epidemiology. Now all someone has to do is look at aggression in different populations of walruses and think "here is a spirit of sickness that passes only from parent to child. And here is a spirit of healthfulness that does the same. If we encouraged the mating of sick and healthful animals, how would the spirits interact? Would they merge, or would one dominate? And come to think of it, are there not sickly and healthy varieties of sweet-vetch, and ptarmigan, and indeed men and women?"

DUM DUM DOOO!
 
Interesting. Technology that protects from hypothermia caused by water could allow them to increase harvest of coastal ecosystems. Even if it's just clams and other stuff gathered from waist-deep water, it's still extra food.
 
"The villagers expect another 'demonstration' tomorrow and with my old cow dead, I truly fear for my life. At times I think we are all like poor Okauyuk, dragged to the freezing bottom tangled in the chords we so carefully knotted."

I like that. I like that a lot.


Talk of different traits becoming fixed in different walrus populations got me to thinking.
Surely someone would notice that different haulouts have different kinds of walruses. There might be different kinds of spirits in those places, or, when someone sees transplanted populations mimic their progenitors, there must be spirits that "ride" the walruses, and spread from parent to child. Keeping track of which "riding spirits" or "heritance spirits" inhabit which populations could give shamans a pretty good grasp of Mendelian genetics.

Well, in a sense, they've managed to pick up intuitively, and then later explicitly, on the heritability of traits through breeding Caribou particularly, but they've seen and used it with Ptarmigan, and with the plants Sweetvetch and Bistort especially.

But the trouble with genetics is that its a pretty complex area. Mendel was able to identify a set of very specific traits for beans, and to track the heritability and interactions of these traits through plants, in order to derive rules of genetics, which could generalize to model the behaviour of other forms of heritable traits. He had a very good subject matter - beans which had a very simple and measurable set of traits and expressed these in clear patterns and which were amenable to rapid study.

Walrus? Not such good subject matter. Life spans and reproduction rates orders of magnitude longer and slower than beans, much more complex behaviour and expression of traits. Much, much, much harder to draw precise rules for.

Instead, what you'll get are generalized observations: "The Walrus at this haul out are very timid, they flee at loud noises." "The Walrus at this haul out are not timid, but they are friendly to men, you can walk right up to them." "The Walrus at this haul out are fat!" "The Walrus at this haul out tend to be smaller, and they swim a lot more." "This Bunch tends to have bigger tusks, and that group tends to have very small tusks."


Actually it's even less of a wank the more I think of it. Walruses are hardly the first animals the Thule have domesticated, and they are already developing models of epidemiology. Now all someone has to do is look at aggression in different populations of walruses and think "here is a spirit of sickness that passes only from parent to child. And here is a spirit of healthfulness that does the same. If we encouraged the mating of sick and healthful animals, how would the spirits interact? Would they merge, or would one dominate? And come to think of it, are there not sickly and healthy varieties of sweet-vetch, and ptarmigan, and indeed men and women?"

The trouble with Walrus is that it is extremely difficult to control the breeding of the animals. You just don't want to be in the way of a horny Walrus. They have the biggest penis bones in the animal kingom. Because Walrus are bull/harem oriented, and because calves stick with their mothers for extended periods, you can if you're committed to observing, trace the lineage of animals. But picking who they breed with, much tougher.

Attempts to get traits into communities involved trying to introduce new individuals into those communities. At points, some bright boy or girl would get the idea that you could introduce a new trait into the community by killing off the males and introducing a couple of new breeding males. But that could be tricky. Foreign males tended to have less breeding success than 'resident' males.

But yes, there's at least a farmers or breeders level of awareness of heritability which has evolved in Thule culture.

Something equivalent of mendelian genetics (even modeled as the movement or transmission of spirits). That would take a genius, and if you've noticed, I am very sparing of geniuses among the Thule. So far, we've seen one bona fide genius, and one very smart guy who could be mistaken for a genius if you squinted a bit.
 
I like that. I like that a lot.
Thank you

As for the genetics thing, I agree that it would be hard to do with walruses, but plants aren't so far outside the realm of possibility. The key would be a recessive trait that produces something useful in one of the plants the Thule cultivate (don't have time to do that research at the moment). If such exists, then some shaman has a pretty good chance of stumbling upon the idea of dominant and recessive alleles, as they try to get the useful cultivar to breed true.

And heritance spirits would be cool. :)
 
But your "Walrus Debate" seems really closer to a Dawn Civilization Internet debate. ;).

"Greetings my cousin, I heard word that you do inquire into the Walrus. So I have drawn for you a picture of the insides of a walrus, the walrus containing a further walrus that walrus' insides also exposed. This is so that you may inquire into the Walrus while you inquire into the Walrus."

"Trolling unto death: pre-science as assassination in the Thule Walrus debate" Society and Science (Thule Studies special)
 
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