Lands of Ice and Mice: An Alternate History of the Thule

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One form of redistribution that I haven't discussed is probably the oldest.

Family. You feed your brother's kids. Your sister's husband feeds you. You exchange with parents or grandparents, with siblings, with aunts and uncles and cousins.

That's always been in place. When resource wars started up, that was the bedrock of alliances to make war. The Shaman's came in as the alliances started needing to be bigger and bigger and mechanisms were needed to avoid war.

The Ellesmere Trading Network is itself not inherently Shamanic, although it makes extensive use of Shamans. Rather, its an extrapolation of family based redistribution and alliances.

And that's where the matter is going to go. The talk is about the Thule shifting to a market or exchange based economy, that's where it is evolving.

Anyway, gotta do some posts on Iron and Writing.
 
Any chance that the wheel can come to be a part of the Interchange? Or do the Thule already got it from Siberia?
I guess it would be of use, though actually sleds work better for a significant part of their space and time.
 
Any chance that the wheel can come to be a part of the Interchange? Or do the Thule already got it from Siberia?
I guess it would be of use, though actually sleds work better for a significant part of their space and time.

Were the Greenland Thule using wheeled carts in any significant number?
 
The Testament of Grandfather

"I am Kiniktaq, a Shaman of the people, called Grandfather by many and my students number hands of hands. I am the first of the people to write their name, but not the last. This is the tale of how it came to be."

"Before me the People did not know writing, the speech for the eye, the speech that endures. We built Inukshuks to mark our way, we carved upon ivory and driftwood, we made marks upon the stones. But each mark, each carving, each inukshuk, stood alone. Some were almost like words. But there was no more sense to them than the cawing of crows - announcing themselves and little more. The marks and carvings and inukshuk, even when they stood together, they did not join hands and did not make speech, they carried no wisdom.

"For many years, I heard tales of the moss faced giants in the far land, and their strange ways. At times, I came to villages where people showed me articles that had come from the giants far land. At length, I resolved to travel to the Far Land and see these strange people for myself.

"I travelled then with Anulkat, my Grandson, my last student, and a mighty shaman of the people in his own right. Day upon day we walked, we crossed from Island to Island going north until there was the end of the world. Then we turned right into the Far Land, travelling south again. We came to a place where the Moss Giants had been but departed, and pressed on. Finally we came to the place of the Moss Giants.

"They were a dying race, starving and sick from the winter. Their faces were moss, as was said, but their stature was small. They were fearful but hungry. Because we fed them like dogs, they became our friends like dogs. We met many times in trade.

"To tame a dog can be a slow thing. After a year of meeting to trade, I came into their village. I saw many wonders there that none of the People had ever seen. The Little Jealous Musk Ox that we know now. Many items of the black copper. Square houses. There was great consternation and confusion, they had never had a real Person among them and did not know what to do.

"I decided that I should leave the trading village that had gathered around me and live among the moss faces, to better learn their ways and speech and see what might benefit the People. By this time, my medicine had helped many among them. I had chased away the starvation ghosts, their bellies were full. They were afraid to have a powerful man among them, but did not say no.

"As I lived among them, they squabbled among themselves like ptarmigan. Their feathers were all ruffled, and they chirped and chirped. ‘What will we do with this powerful man among us’ they asked each other, over and over. At length, they decided ‘We will make him one of us, we will lead him to our God and save his soul.’ And so their Priest came to me, and their high women came to me, and their widows came to me, and each of them said ‘you must take the word of our god into you.’

"I thought upon the matter long and hard. Then a widow of them said, take the word of our god into you, and you may put the word of your flesh into me, and so I decided. They told me all the ways of their god, and showed me all the ways they worshipped. They poured water on my head, and took me into the big house of their god which was so crowded that he had to step out for air and did not come back in though we watched carefully. But I got a wife out of it, so it was not bad.

"The God they worshipped was very cunning. He was everywhere, but sneaky, so he would never be where you looked. He was in the sky, and the clouds, he was in the earth, and everywhere, but if you looked in one spot he would be gone away. He was a lazy and silly god, he let men kill him so that he could forgive them. He fed people, but then he did not. He said many things. He drowned the world, but then changed his mind and said I will save some. He was always changing his mind. His people worshipped and prayed to him constantly, but he did not make the weather good like he claimed to, and he did not make the plants grow well. He is a good god for the moss faces, I suppose and they liked him well enough, but he is not a fit spirit for the real People.

"But as I learned about their God, I learned about his word. The Moss face said that their god had spoken to them, and that his words were still around and I could hear them to. They showed me their Bible, which they said was the word of their god. I looked on it, and it was all thin skins called pages one after another, with marks all over it.

"What is this? I asked. This is the speech of our god, they told me. At first, I thought perhaps the speech of their god was like the droppings of caribou or birds which come out solid, and wondered what sort of god they worshipped.

But then they showed me that the marks upon the pages were words in the language of their god, that each spoken word had a set of marks. When you knew what each mark said, then you had the speech of their god.

"They taught me the meaning of their marks and how to make and read each one. I said, ‘I will tell the People the truth of your God’ which I have, and they celebrated and wept and called me a holy man which was obvious but good that they finally realized it and tried to teach me more. Many times, I was allowed to carry their Bible with me and read upon it and copy the markings.

"Now, while I lived among the moss faces, I would see marks made and given among them. At first, I thought nothing of it. Then I thought it was the same marks as the words of their god. But then as I learned the marks I thought the marks are not the same marks. So I asked what these marks were, and I learned that these are the words of the moss face, made like the words of their god.

"So then I thought and thought, and it seemed to me that if moss face had the writing of words as well, then there was no magic to it that their god owned. Then I thought and thought and it seemed to me that the writing of words for the People would be a good thing and have many uses.

"But the writing of the moss people was good for the moss people, and the writing of their silly god was good for silly gods. But neither was suitable for the people. I resolved to make the signs by which our words could be read. I laboured for many days and nights making these signs, and the moss people would come to me and say ‘what are you doing?’ And I would say ‘I am making signs for my people so that they will know your god.’ And they would sing and weep and give me gifts.

"When I was satisfied, my Grandson Anulkat came to visit with me, and I told him about the words. He saw no sense in them because he was young, but I taught him anyway, and then when he went away, I would send him hides with the words of my voice written on them, and he would hear my voice as he read. I taught this writing to the others of my students and who did my bidding, and Anulkat taught it to his students. Soon my words written on hide would pass from hand to hand across lands, and each one who knew their meaning would hear my words as if I was standing there and saying it to them.

The art of making writing and of reading spread. My Grandson sent me hides and I read them and heard his voice. As I sent my words, and he sent his, it was as if we were speaking. We spoke to our students in this manner, and they spoke to each other.

There came a time when I received a skin, and I looked at the marks and did not know the hand that made them, and I read the words and it was of a Shaman I had never met. And there was a time when I read the words of a man on the other side of the world. And a time I read the words of a man of the south land so far down that he could see savages across the river.

I think that there will come a time when Shaman will read and write, and so I make this so that they hear my words and know who has bestowed this great gift upon them. When I am gone, still my words will be heard.
 

FDW

Banned
I have a question, are the Thule using the Latin Alphabet, or has Grandpa invented his own?
 

The Sandman

Banned
I wonder if that document sits in a museum in a Thulish capital come the 21st century ITTL?

European scientists, once such start to come about in the 17th and 18th centuries, are going to be fascinated by the Thule. A chance to see something vaguely akin to Greece or Rome in terms of technological development, but as a living, breathing civilization? It's a historian's dream.
 
Thule Writing

The first Thule script is almost entirely the invention of a single remarkable person, the Shaman Kiniktaq, better known as Grandfather. Inspired by the examples of latin and runic writing, Grandfather devised the first written language for the Thule, known as THULE 1-ORIGINAL, circa 1433.

Grandfather's script is primarily a syllabary form of writing, with some 16 to 21 characters representing the most common phonemes in his dialect of the Thule tongue.

In addition to the syllabary phonemes, the script contained another 10 to 15 'hieroglyphic' symbols drawn from rock drawing or bone carvings representing commonly depicted items in Thule life - man, woman, fish, caribou, etc.

Grandfather devised a further set of symbols to represent numbers, running from 1 to 14. After 14 he apparently got bored and quit that task.

The form and style of Grandfather's script consists of a series of loops and curves, with a clear visual resemblance to latin letters and arabic numerals, although there is no semantic overlap.

Grandfather's syllabary/hieroglyph script is relatively unique in that he incorporated markers to indicate the direction that it should be read - usually right to left, but sometimes top to bottom, or bottom to top or left to right. This was in part a response to the oddly shaped writing surfaces - small rabbit hides, or pieces of driftwood, or the surfaces of stones, and an attempt to maximize the use of the surface. There were also marks to indicate adjectival annotations, so a line of text could have words above or below it acting as footnotes to the main comment.

Initially in use between Grandfather and his students, THULE 1-ORIGINAL spread extremely rapidly across the Thule realm. Within a decade, 1441 examples of the language can be found as far away as the McKenzie Valley subculture, although these were almost certainly a relatively small group of first and second generation writers. In two decades, by 1451 it had reached Siberia, and literacy was becoming, if not common among Shaman's, at least a well known and reputable skill.

Despite its success, THULE 1-ORIGINAL was not without flaws and complexities. Elaboration followed naturally with iteration, with more and more phonemes and hieroglyphs added, and modifications of existing symbols, new rules of grammar and syntax were invented and incorporated. By 1500, this had evolved into THULE 1-EXTENDED, consisting of some 40 phonemes, over two hundred hieroglyphs and an elaborate body of rules and directors.

Eventually, the extreme complexity made the language inaccessible, and a third form, THULE 1-SIMPLIFIED consisting of a pared down set of 20 phonemes, 10 key symbols, and a series of directors and modifiers was established as a universal written speech by an assembly of Shamans in 1540.

Even while THULE 1-EXTENDED was evolving, other versions emerged at the hands of local Shamans, modifying the evolving THULE 1 as they saw fit. Some of these would be single user written dialects. Others achieved local popularity. These have included identified dialects - THULE 1a, THULE 1b, THULE 1e, THULE 1i. These are all at least somewhat comprehensible to each other.

The THULE 1 family of scripts were somewhat cumbersome, and many of the looping characters were difficult to make on many writing surfaces or tended to resemble each other overmuch, the combinations of phonemes and hieroglyphs tended to be awkward.

A number of Shamans over the years developed or proposed their own versions of writing systems. Some of these were specifically in opposition to the growing complexity and difficulty of THULE 1. Others seem to have come about in remote areas, inspired by grandfather's example but without actually having learned or read it. Still others seem to have been developed by certain of the emerging trading networks or polities as a secret language intended to be inaccessible to outsiders. In all, roughly 20 of these alternate scripts have been identified over a three hundred year period, and are designated as THULE 2 through THULE 20.

Of these, only THULE 4, THULE 6, THULE 11 and THULE 14 found any widespread use. THULE 4 is a martial script, originating in Siberia and still in use among certain subsections of the Thule Alaskan and Siberian population. THULE 11 was in use for a time on the Pacific West coast, but largely died out in the 1700's and 1800's. THULE 14 is a script that emerged during the European trade, circa 1740, and reached maximum use approximately 1850 but declined thereafter.

THULE 6 was by far the most successful of the rival scripts. Eschewing the curves and loops of the THULE 1 family for a series of intersecting slashes and dots, THULE 6 abandoned hieroglyphics altogether, and focused on a simple set of rules by which phonemes could be constructed and linked together.

THULE 6 first appears around1490 and rapidly gained in popularity. By 1550 it was in common use in many areas. The attempt to reform THULE 1 which resulted in SIMPLIFIED, appears in part to have been driven by the increasing success of THULE 6. If so, the effort was largely unsuccessful. By 1586, both THULE 1-SIMPLIFIED, and THULE 6 were in common use. By 1686 THULE 6 was the dominant script, and the versions of THULE 1 were confined to specialized classes and geographic enclaves.
 
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Grandson,

I am sending 14 and 1 pieces of BLACK copper to you. 4 of the pieces are the length of a man's ARM. Count them and if the long pieces are broken, make the headman account for each. If more than 3 small pieces are missing, then you must curse them MANY until they give you. BLACK Copper is dear to the moss people and it is hard to get from them.

I am sending 14 and 14 and 14 and 14 and 14 and 6 pieces of wool fabric. You must give 1 piece to each man to show you are generous, and 9 pieces to the headman so that he may be generous.

When the pass freezes, you must procure 14 and 14 caribou, and 7 musk ox for the Moss people. They must be fat because the trail is long and they should not be too skinny when they arrive. We will keep them at the big cove where they can sustain themselves until ready.


*****************************

Grandson

Do not send mares, only bulls. They are less valuable and the moss people will not know the difference.


***************************

Grandson

My wife here is no good. She complains all the time and will not lay with me. She prays too much, and she will not work. My feet are cold. If this goes on, I will go up the coast to my other wives. If I do this, then you must come down and live with the Moss people and look after her.


***************************

Grandson

I am sending you the Moss man, he is young and stupid, but he knows working BLACK copper. I am sending him where he will be close to the copper BLACK where it is found on the ground and will be able to work it. Both the moss people and the true people are hungry for BLACK copper, but they have little where they are, so it will be good that he and his skill will be where it is found easily. Make sure he gets what he asks for and Find him a wife, tell him the wife is your sister, he will not know the difference. If he asks if you are a Christian make the sign I showed you. Make sure no one starves him to death. Do not beat him or let him be beaten, but do not let him act like a headman.


****************************

Grandson

I have not heard from you all season. Are you busy? Are you so important now that you can not be bothered to listen to your poor grandfather with a bad wife among the moss face people. My feet hurt and I do not like to walk. I walk so much because I work. But what do you do? Where is your respect? Where is your generosity? Please write back.


****************************


Grandson

I have been talking to the men who work BLACK copper and I have been watching as they work. I ask many questions, and they tell me many things of the secret to work BLACK copper.

They have no BLACK copper to be found here. They say that their BLACK copper is brought to them. They do not know much of the BLACK copper that is found at the northern places, and it is far for them to travel. Those are our places, and we should not be rude, but if they come, they should know it is not theirs but ours.

What they say of BLACK copper is different from what we know of copper. It is not found in rivers and on banks. It is in wet bogs. Dig up the bogs, and it is found in nuggets. You can tell the bogs where BLACK copper is found because the water tastes of it, and there is a shiny colour slick like a wet rainbow that can be found - the moss people call this 'Iarnbrakt.' It is a lot of digging. The BLACK copper will grow back in the bog, but it is slow, the lifetime of a man.

They have no such bogs around where they live here. That is why BLACK copper is so dear to them. I have seen such bogs and seen such Iarnbrakt in the lands of the people. Local people know it because the water tastes so bad, but is safe and does not sicken you. We should send a student to see if this is true.

I will write more about the fire they make to work BLACK copper, and how they work it. Perhaps it will be of use.


*******************

Grandson

What do you mean you cannot put the loom together? I sent you all the pieces. Maybe your students are lazy. Should you beat them? I am sending you a loom again, and there will be a list of pieces and I have made drawings for you to put it together.

PS - I have told the herdsmen that if any of them use the pieces of the loom for fire or tools, you will know and you will make their penises all fall off.


***********************

Grandson

I am an old man and I am dying. Come. I am done here. I want to go home.


**********************


Grandson

You did not come. What is wrong with you? I said I am dying.


**********************


Grandson

I am happy to hear of your children. They are a great joy. You should still respect your teachers. My feet hurt, and this wife will not rub them. Also, didn't I tell you you should send fat caribou. Pay more attention.


**********************

Grandson

You must be very careful with these little white musk ox. They are very jealous and they have magic. If they are close to Caribou or Musk Ox they will kill these animals with sickness. It is very fast. When they are around at the same place, you must watch them carefully. You must not let the Caribou or Musk Ox eat where the little musk ox eats. You must not let them near its waste, or touch them. If you are careful you will be all right. But you must be watchful. Their magic does not hurt men.

The moss people drink the milk that they give. Be careful. I drank the milk and I was running outdoor all night and my stomach ached and my bowels were loose even more than my feet hurt. But a herdsman drank the milk and he was fine. So it all depends. Try it, but if it is not for you, do not do it again.


********************

Grandson

The day is warm and the sun feels good on my skin. Last night my wife rubbed my feet. They do not hurt so much. My daughter is growing quickly. Everyone is happy. The Caribou are here, and there many new real people, they are shy with the moss people, but it is good to have them here. You are a good Grandson, you should visit more.


*****************


Notes:
* Black copper is the Thule term for iron.
* Little musk ox is the Thule term for sheep.
 
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Those letters are adorable.

Interesting stuff about the development of the alphabet, sounds like Chief Sequoya apprenticed himself to Saints Cyril and Methodius and went on to invent hiragana. Mind if I take a stab at designing some of those letters?
 
Might show up in limited usage, as parts of agricultural machines.
Wheelbarrows might be useful with all the earth moving they do, but I've only found one reference at aux meadows and that was a picture of a reproduction. It looked more like a cart anyway.

Spinning whorls they'd certainly learn about though, but I don't know if it could be applied to other things.
 
Some initial thoughts on the Thule syllabary:

Attribution list of Thule words and names on these pages (I'm sure I've missed some)

Kinktaq
Anulkat
Amaguq
Adlartok

inukshuk (sign-stone)
Issortuyok (leader-dog)
nuna (winter)
hey (lands)
awakiarutak (areola lake)
ataneq (emperor-father)
sinnektomanerk (dream-of?)
tanapok (sweetvetch)
taggarik (pitch-dark)
tugartaq (snow)
pokittok (low)
kaibjayok (bless?)
adgiarpok (coming?)
onakok (warm?)
kollangorpok (breathe?)
Nektoralik (eagle bay)
aama (mother)

Clearly there are some differences here from Inuktiut, with a lot of illegal vowels (o and e), and possible voicing of plosives (the b in kaibjayok), and there are some Inuktiut phonemes that aren't attested (ng, tl (unless that's the dl in Adlartok), and v. Also there are a hell of a lot of consonants at the ends of syllables for a language with a syllabary. If every end-syllable consonant gets its own symbol (like hiragana ん), we get 35 symbols. Clearly that's more than the 20 THULE1 stabilizes on. Therefor it's more likely that end-syllable consonants and long vowels are indicated by diacritical marks. Other diacritics can merge consonant sounds (like hiragana voiceless た and voiced だ, you get "front" p and "back: t). So we merge p/t/k/q (front, middle, back far-back), m/n/ng (front, back, and far-back) v/l/j, and g/r.

That gives us:
a (long form aa)
i (long form ii, back form e)
u (long form uu, back form o)
pa (sometimes realized as ba, back form is ta, mid form is ka, far back form is qa)
pi
pu
sa (back form is ha)
si
su (realized as shu when evolved from tu)
tla (sometimes realized as dla)
tli
tlu
la (front form is va, back form is ja (pronounced ya))
li
(lu, rare form, absent from modern system)
ga (back form is r)(r is the voiced uvular fricative)(g becomes voiced velar fricative between vowels or nasals, written y, r become voiced nasal fricative between vowels and nasals, written n)
gi
gu
na (front form is ma, back form is nga)
ni
nu

Which (minutes constonant-final diacritics) gives us exactly 20 symbols!
Whew!
 
Those letters are adorable.

Interesting stuff about the development of the alphabet, sounds like Chief Sequoya apprenticed himself to Saints Cyril and Methodius and went on to invent hiragana. Mind if I take a stab at designing some of those letters?

Sure thing, go right ahead.

Essentially, its what you get when a relatively gifted polymath gets his hands on a good idea - basically, equal parts borrowing from all over the place, genuine inspirations, and awkward kluges. Rendered literally, translations of early writing would read something like "Me am Grandfather, am me happy write to you." Grandfather kept tinkering with it, fine tuning it for much of his life.

And of course, within Thule society, particularly among the Shamans, there's no formal stamp or seal of approval for Grandfather's form of script, so a lot of gifted men and women all over the place, having seen the idea prove out, start tinkering with their own variations, or reinventing from scratch.... the same way that turn of the 20th century inventors were building all sorts of designs for cars, or the same way that late 20th century inventors were building all sorts of computers and software packages.

That heterodoxy is a strong feature of Thule society, at least in this phase. Someone comes up with a good idea, and it will spread fast. And while its spreading, everyone and their uncle will start screwing with it to try and get a little advantage or improvement.

In terms of the invention and wildfire spread of Thule writing, I'm drawing on the comparatively recent OTL historical examples of writing transmission.

The clearest case is the Cherokee Syllabary, invented by an illiterate Cherokee silversmith named Sequoyah (also named George Gist). He had regular contact with whites and was impressed with their written language. He decided to create his own, between 1809 and 1821. He was quite obsessed with the task, faced accusations of witchcraft and at points even quit farming to work on it. He went up a huge blind alley, trying to come up with a symbol for every Cherokee word, but eventually had a breakthrough when he crafted a syllabary. Within a decade, the Cherokee syllabary was read and written through much of the Cherokee nation, with a literacy rate as high or higher than the white community.

The Cherokee Syllabary appears to have directly inspired the Vai Syallabary which came into use among the Vai tribe in 1830, developed by Momulu Duwalu Bukele.

The example of the Cherokee syllabary appeared to have been a trigger or an inspiration for a northern missionary in what is now the Canadian province of Manitoba to develop Cree syllabics in 1840. This writing system, spread like wildfire and came rapidly into use even among Cree who had not had contact with Europeans.

A peculiar case is MicMac hieroglyphs. It's not entirely clear. MicMac glyphs seem to have preceded the arrival of the Europeans and were used commonly. The argument has been that this may be an indigenous writing system, or that the glyphs were merely memory or recall aids, which missionairies later adapted into a writing system. Even if we accept the second hypothesis, it seems that the MicMac may have been closely approaching indigenous writing.

Another interesting case is the Rongo Rongo 'written language' of the Rapa Nui (Easter Island). This seems to be quite controversial. There are very few remnants of it left, there is no one who can read it. There is debate over whether the Rongo Rongo actually constitutes a written language. And there's debate over whether, if it is a written language, the Rongo Rongo is an indigenously developed written language or was inspired by contact with Europeans. If in fact, it was inspired by contact with Europeans, this is another case of wild fire proliferation - the mere example and explanation causing a written language to literally burst upon the scene and be widely adopted.

There are doubtless a number of other cases, but these are all particularly interesting in their own way.

One curious thing is that from what we can determine 'original' written languages - ie, developed autonomously without being inspired elsewhere, seem to start off as counting and accounting systems. Means of keeping track of who has what, who is owed what, who owes what. Only as the counting develops does the proto-script assume more and more functions and baggage. So far as we can tell, there's a long evolutionary process for a written language to develop.

For this reason, so far as we can tell, there are only a handful of instances of the genuine invention of written languages. It occurs often enough and in widely scattered enough locations to suggest that it may be a fairly inevitable development. But it's not that common.

A lot more written languages seem to be inspired. They may be dramatically different from the inspirations. But there seems to have been some kind of cultural contact, some people in the receiving culture seem to grasp the utilitly and use of written language, and they take that idea and develop their own - sometimes similar, sometimes radically different.

It doesn't automatically happen all the time. The Maya for instance developed a written language, but we don't see their neighbors racing to pick it up.

Of course, most such original developments and inspirations are for the most part ancient history. We can track back to and guess at the original writing systems, and make a fair case as to the ones which were derived through inspiration, but that tells us little about the manner in which they were developed, or the speed of development and proliferation.

For that, I have to turn to the examples of the 19th century aboriginal written languages of North America, Africa and Polynesia. From the examples, I find myself drawing two conclusions:

1) Inspired languages are not a case of reinventing the wheel, they're reinventing the SUV. An inspired written language seems to bypass all the conceptual development that accompanies original developments of written languages. They don't develop first as accounting or counting systems and go through stages of development. Rather, they seem to arrive 'state of the art' - ie, the people who have learned of the idea of having a written language have also acquired the ideas of all the bells and whistles, functions and capacities of a written language, and when they do their own, they build all that in from the start. In a sense, rather than learning to crawl or walk first, an inspired written language often starts out running.

2) Inspired languages will spread like wildfire. They seem to get adopted extremely rapidly. Cree syllabics outpaced European contact. The Cherokee system surpassed white literacy rates in less than a decade. The Rongo Rongo may have come from glancing contact with occasional ships.

Now, there's one objection to the modern inspired written languages. At least in terms of Cree, Ojibwa and Cherokee syllabics. All of these groups were in regular contact with Europeans for a century or more before they broke through to a written language. In a sense, they were Europeanized. So its not like someone got off the boat and a year later the Cree were writing letters to each other. There were long periods of cultural contact during which writing did not transmit, but which may have prepared these cultures for writing.

But then again, this may be exactly the case with the Rongo Rongo, or the MicMac Hieroglyphs, or the Vai syllabary. Hard to tell. At the very least, the Rongo Rongo is the most troubling case, although there is so little hard evidence. One theory for the Rongorongo is that it was inspired by a 1770 Spanish expedition and the signing of a treaty. If that is the case, then the point of inspiration here was incredibly brief contact.

And of course, as I've pointed out, no other meso-american group seems to have been inspired by the Mayan script.

The conclusion I tend to draw is that the emergence of inspired scripts seems to be an unpredictable bolt of lightning. Someone gets the idea and goes ahead and does it. But that someone may show up early or late. Statistically, they'll show up eventually. But there's no clear telling when.

A peculiarity is that the Cree and Ojibwa syllabits were used by non-Agricultural hunter gatherers. I think this may also hold true of the Micmacs. Of all peoples, you'd expect that hunter gatherers would have had the least need. The fact that they adopted it so readily seems to suggest that once the idea is there and there's a vehicle, its valuable enough to be adopted readily.

In the case of the Thule, it should be noted that by the time of the Norse Interchange, they've become a fairly sophisticated agricultural and herding civilization with a fair degree of complexity. Given the social complexity that they are dealing with, I think that there's a lot stronger incentive and motivation, a lot more need for a workable script, than you would find in hunter gatherers. So, their invention and adoption of a written language is likely to be a lot faster and earlier, they're more prone to an early bolt of lightning and wildfire spread. There's more applications or niches in their society, more opportunities for writing to be useful, and for the utilitly of it to be more obvious, self evident and inspirational.

I don't really have anything too solid to back that up, except perhaps for the lightninglike rapid invention/adoption of the RongoRongo after a single brief Spanish contact. The Rapa Nui culture was extremely complicated, extremely advanced in terms of monument building and so forth.

We don't have anything on how difficult it is to create such a thing. Sequoyah of the Cherokee diddled with it for a decade. But then again, he spent a long time going down a serious blind alley, and faced a lot of resistance. At one point one of his wives burned his work because she thought it was black magic, forcing him to start over from the beginning.

I would argue that it's reasonable, assuming no blind alleys, if someone stumbles onto a viable path at the outset, they can develop something useful in a year or two.

In the situation of Grandfather:
1) he's given inadvertently given a heavy duty crash course in the merit and use of a written language,
2) given two very different examples of written languages to draw from,
3) has a store of existing Thule symbols and glyphs to begin referring to,
4) is coming from a sophisticated and innovating culture,
5) is himself a member of a caste or tradition at the forefront of exploration and innovation and sophistication,
6) is a very smart guy himself (not a genius - but very smart),
7) he's gone to the Norse with the intention of making a name for himself and learning or obtaining things that might be useful, so he's on the make,
8) his culture has lots of 'plug ins' points and situations where a written language would be very useful.

Based on all of that, and from what I can glean from the 19th century inspired languages, and from what we can tell of prior language development, I think I can make an arguable case that its plausible that Grandfather could and would develop a written Thule script within a few years of meeting with, living with, working and trading with the Norse.

Anyone wants to, they can feel free to disagree and pose a counter-argument. But as far as I'm concerned, its a done deal. It's in the timeline now, and I'm not amending or taking it out.
 
Sure thing, go right ahead.

Essentially, its what you get when a relatively gifted polymath gets his hands on a good idea - basically, equal parts borrowing from all over the place, genuine inspirations, and awkward kluges. Rendered literally, translations of early writing would read something like "Me am Grandfather, am me happy write to you." Grandfather kept tinkering with it, fine tuning it for much of his life.

And of course, within Thule society, particularly among the Shamans, there's no formal stamp or seal of approval for Grandfather's form of script, so a lot of gifted men and women all over the place, having seen the idea prove out, start tinkering with their own variations, or reinventing from scratch.... the same way that turn of the 20th century inventors were building all sorts of designs for cars, or the same way that late 20th century inventors were building all sorts of computers and software packages.

That heterodoxy is a strong feature of Thule society, at least in this phase. Someone comes up with a good idea, and it will spread fast. And while its spreading, everyone and their uncle will start screwing with it to try and get a little advantage or improvement.

In terms of the invention and wildfire spread of Thule writing, I'm drawing on the comparatively recent OTL historical examples of writing transmission.

The clearest case is the Cherokee Syllabary, invented by an illiterate Cherokee silversmith named Sequoyah (also named George Gist). He had regular contact with whites and was impressed with their written language. He decided to create his own, between 1809 and 1821. He was quite obsessed with the task, faced accusations of witchcraft and at points even quit farming to work on it. He went up a huge blind alley, trying to come up with a symbol for every Cherokee word, but eventually had a breakthrough when he crafted a syllabary. Within a decade, the Cherokee syllabary was read and written through much of the Cherokee nation, with a literacy rate as high or higher than the white community.

The Cherokee Syllabary appears to have directly inspired the Vai Syallabary which came into use among the Vai tribe in 1830, developed by Momulu Duwalu Bukele.

The example of the Cherokee syllabary appeared to have been a trigger or an inspiration for a northern missionary in what is now the Canadian province of Manitoba to develop Cree syllabics in 1840. This writing system, spread like wildfire and came rapidly into use even among Cree who had not had contact with Europeans.

A peculiar case is MicMac hieroglyphs. It's not entirely clear. MicMac glyphs seem to have preceded the arrival of the Europeans and were used commonly. The argument has been that this may be an indigenous writing system, or that the glyphs were merely memory or recall aids, which missionairies later adapted into a writing system. Even if we accept the second hypothesis, it seems that the MicMac may have been closely approaching indigenous writing.

Another interesting case is the Rongo Rongo 'written language' of the Rapa Nui (Easter Island). This seems to be quite controversial. There are very few remnants of it left, there is no one who can read it. There is debate over whether the Rongo Rongo actually constitutes a written language. And there's debate over whether, if it is a written language, the Rongo Rongo is an indigenously developed written language or was inspired by contact with Europeans. If in fact, it was inspired by contact with Europeans, this is another case of wild fire proliferation - the mere example and explanation causing a written language to literally burst upon the scene and be widely adopted.

There are doubtless a number of other cases, but these are all particularly interesting in their own way.

One curious thing is that from what we can determine 'original' written languages - ie, developed autonomously without being inspired elsewhere, seem to start off as counting and accounting systems. Means of keeping track of who has what, who is owed what, who owes what. Only as the counting develops does the proto-script assume more and more functions and baggage. So far as we can tell, there's a long evolutionary process for a written language to develop.

For this reason, so far as we can tell, there are only a handful of instances of the genuine invention of written languages. It occurs often enough and in widely scattered enough locations to suggest that it may be a fairly inevitable development. But it's not that common.

A lot more written languages seem to be inspired. They may be dramatically different from the inspirations. But there seems to have been some kind of cultural contact, some people in the receiving culture seem to grasp the utilitly and use of written language, and they take that idea and develop their own - sometimes similar, sometimes radically different.

It doesn't automatically happen all the time. The Maya for instance developed a written language, but we don't see their neighbors racing to pick it up.

Of course, most such original developments and inspirations are for the most part ancient history. We can track back to and guess at the original writing systems, and make a fair case as to the ones which were derived through inspiration, but that tells us little about the manner in which they were developed, or the speed of development and proliferation.

For that, I have to turn to the examples of the 19th century aboriginal written languages of North America, Africa and Polynesia. From the examples, I find myself drawing two conclusions:

1) Inspired languages are not a case of reinventing the wheel, they're reinventing the SUV. An inspired written language seems to bypass all the conceptual development that accompanies original developments of written languages. They don't develop first as accounting or counting systems and go through stages of development. Rather, they seem to arrive 'state of the art' - ie, the people who have learned of the idea of having a written language have also acquired the ideas of all the bells and whistles, functions and capacities of a written language, and when they do their own, they build all that in from the start. In a sense, rather than learning to crawl or walk first, an inspired written language often starts out running.

2) Inspired languages will spread like wildfire. They seem to get adopted extremely rapidly. Cree syllabics outpaced European contact. The Cherokee system surpassed white literacy rates in less than a decade. The Rongo Rongo may have come from glancing contact with occasional ships.

Now, there's one objection to the modern inspired written languages. At least in terms of Cree, Ojibwa and Cherokee syllabics. All of these groups were in regular contact with Europeans for a century or more before they broke through to a written language. In a sense, they were Europeanized. So its not like someone got off the boat and a year later the Cree were writing letters to each other. There were long periods of cultural contact during which writing did not transmit, but which may have prepared these cultures for writing.

But then again, this may be exactly the case with the Rongo Rongo, or the MicMac Hieroglyphs, or the Vai syllabary. Hard to tell. At the very least, the Rongo Rongo is the most troubling case, although there is so little hard evidence. One theory for the Rongorongo is that it was inspired by a 1770 Spanish expedition and the signing of a treaty. If that is the case, then the point of inspiration here was incredibly brief contact.

And of course, as I've pointed out, no other meso-american group seems to have been inspired by the Mayan script.

The conclusion I tend to draw is that the emergence of inspired scripts seems to be an unpredictable bolt of lightning. Someone gets the idea and goes ahead and does it. But that someone may show up early or late. Statistically, they'll show up eventually. But there's no clear telling when.

A peculiarity is that the Cree and Ojibwa syllabits were used by non-Agricultural hunter gatherers. I think this may also hold true of the Micmacs. Of all peoples, you'd expect that hunter gatherers would have had the least need. The fact that they adopted it so readily seems to suggest that once the idea is there and there's a vehicle, its valuable enough to be adopted readily.

In the case of the Thule, it should be noted that by the time of the Norse Interchange, they've become a fairly sophisticated agricultural and herding civilization with a fair degree of complexity. Given the social complexity that they are dealing with, I think that there's a lot stronger incentive and motivation, a lot more need for a workable script, than you would find in hunter gatherers. So, their invention and adoption of a written language is likely to be a lot faster and earlier, they're more prone to an early bolt of lightning and wildfire spread. There's more applications or niches in their society, more opportunities for writing to be useful, and for the utilitly of it to be more obvious, self evident and inspirational.

I don't really have anything too solid to back that up, except perhaps for the lightninglike rapid invention/adoption of the RongoRongo after a single brief Spanish contact. The Rapa Nui culture was extremely complicated, extremely advanced in terms of monument building and so forth.

We don't have anything on how difficult it is to create such a thing. Sequoyah of the Cherokee diddled with it for a decade. But then again, he spent a long time going down a serious blind alley, and faced a lot of resistance. At one point one of his wives burned his work because she thought it was black magic, forcing him to start over from the beginning.

I would argue that it's reasonable, assuming no blind alleys, if someone stumbles onto a viable path at the outset, they can develop something useful in a year or two.

In the situation of Grandfather:
1) he's given inadvertently given a heavy duty crash course in the merit and use of a written language,
2) given two very different examples of written languages to draw from,
3) has a store of existing Thule symbols and glyphs to begin referring to,
4) is coming from a sophisticated and innovating culture,
5) is himself a member of a caste or tradition at the forefront of exploration and innovation and sophistication,
6) is a very smart guy himself (not a genius - but very smart),
7) he's gone to the Norse with the intention of making a name for himself and learning or obtaining things that might be useful, so he's on the make,
8) his culture has lots of 'plug ins' points and situations where a written language would be very useful.

Based on all of that, and from what I can glean from the 19th century inspired languages, and from what we can tell of prior language development, I think I can make an arguable case that its plausible that Grandfather could and would develop a written Thule script within a few years of meeting with, living with, working and trading with the Norse.

Anyone wants to, they can feel free to disagree and pose a counter-argument. But as far as I'm concerned, its a done deal. It's in the timeline now, and I'm not amending or taking it out.

Well, makes sense, much sense. The only thing I am not entirely convinced, is what at first sight seems unnecessary complication of the Thule-1 system and its distance to the latin alphabetic system.
Grandfather is not getting just the idea of writing, he's getting the idea of phonetic writing.
I see that you are taking the examples of "inspired" writings like Sequoya and the Cree syllabary. But there are also "transmitted" writings (a script is adopted with modifications or sometimes wholesale) which are indeed very common in the Old World. And endless combinations.
In this context, what prevents grandfather to just pick a set of symbols derived from Latin script and Runes, adapt it to the Thule phonetics and aestethics, and devise an alphabet derived from European forms? In other words, why is he Sequoyah rather than St. Cyril or St. Mesrop?

Of course, syllabic and phonetic writing systems tend to spread much more quickly than ideographic ones, and are easier to imitate. I know only a case where an alphabetic system reverted to a partial logography, and it was preislamic Persia, where a caste of priests had somewhat an interest in keeping the script complicated.
 
Okay, here's my first try. This would have to be modern THULE1, with all the systematization and simplification already having been completed.
On top is the basic grid of syllables (18),
below are the diacritics (arrows show direction of text relative to the diacritics) for:
syllable-end consonants
fronting, backing, or far-backing consonants
changing vowels
Then we have the speech from the first post, slightly re-romanized.
The same text in THULE1 ("Grandponics"?)
And the Grandponics spellings of some names and words.
On the bottom left you see some fun with writing directions. Note that orientation of the central letter (or kana) doesn't change, but the diacritics sort of orbit around.
 
trying that again...
grandponics_by_bensen_daniel-d5gxhjk.jpg
 

PhilippeO

Banned
Grandfather's syllabary/hieroglyph script is relatively unique in that he incorporated markers to indicate the direction that it should be read - usually right to left, but sometimes top to bottom, or bottom to top or left to right. This was in part a response to the oddly shaped writing surfaces - small rabbit hides, or pieces of driftwood, or the surfaces of stones, and an attempt to maximize the use of the surface.


Did thule already have ink before Norse contact ? norse rune have a lot of straight line because it easier to scratch line on stone. it odd grandfather designed it to be used on driftwood and stones, but choose to use curve and loop.
 
Did thule already have ink before Norse contact ?

No they didn't. Even after contact, there's a lot of experimenting with writing medium.

norse rune have a lot of straight line because it easier to scratch line on stone. it odd grandfather designed it to be used on driftwood and stones, but choose to use curve and loop.

Grandfather had a misstep there. He was too influenced by his exposure to Latin letters when he created his symbols. This is why the THULE 1, family was supplanted by the THULE 6 which employed straight lines rather than curve and loop.
 
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