WI: Continuing Seljuk Empire?

[oshron]

after a discussion about what could happen to the former Ottoman Empire if it was successfully partitioned, i got to thinking about it Turkey in general, and a thought occurred to me: what if, just to mix things up, the Ottoman Empire never comes to be and the Seljuk Empire persists instead, through to TTL's analogy to WW1?

therefore, there's three things that need to be considered here:

1. exactly how could the Seljuks persist while the Ottomans don't?
2. would the Seljuks handle the events of world history from 1194 (their official collapse) to around 1923 differently from the Ottomans, and how so?
3. what territory would the Seljuks have in this situation through to their end, and what would they lose over time?

 

[Elfwine]

The Rum Seljuks surviving is different than the Great Seljuks (collapsed in 1194), so which are we trying to preserve?

If the Seljuks of Rum survive past their (later than 1194) collapse OTL, the Ottomans won't simply because they'll never amount to anything (or be butterflied).

 

[oshron]

let's say the Rum Seljuks (my rush-to-posting stupidity shines through again ). that actually seems much more plausible than any POD from the collapse of the Great Seljuks, since (in what little research i did before posting) i learned that alot of groups were vying for control and the Ottomans ended up coming to power then.

 

[Elfwine]

let's say the Rum Seljuks (my rush-to-posting stupidity shines through again ). that actually seems much more plausible than any POD from the collapse of the Great Seljuks, since (in what little research i did before posting) i learned that alot of groups were vying for control and the Ottomans ended up coming to power then.

Getting rid of the Mongols might help.

 

[Malta]

The Mongols and Timur really screwed up the Anatolian Turks. Heck. They screwed up everyone West of Central Asia to Poland.

 

[Elfwine]

The Mongols and Timur really screwed up the Anatolian Turks. Heck. They screwed up everyone West of Central Asia to Poland.

The Byzantines might not agree.

 

[oshron]

i think i'd like to explore the possibility of the Mongols still being there but the Seljuks more or less retaining power. after all, the Ottomans stayed in power at the time in spite of there being a couple of very large Mongol states near their own country. and the Mongols were more or less in decline at this time anyway. there just needs to be a POD in which the Seljuks of Rum supersede the Ottomans and return to dominance

 

[Elfwine]

i think i'd like to explore the possibility of the Mongols still being there but the Seljuks more or less retaining power. after all, the Ottomans stayed in power at the time in spite of there being a couple of very large Mongol states near their own country. and the Mongols were more or less in decline at this time anyway. there just needs to be a POD in which the Seljuks of Rum supersede the Ottomans and return to dominance

The problem is that the Seljuks got kicked hard by the Mongols, and then kicked around by the same.

Easy to get rid of the Ottomans with a variety of PODs, but resurrecting the Seljuks would be hard.

 

[oshron]

well actually calling it "the Seljuk Empire" isn't exactly necessary. i guess what i'm really looking for is some other Turks to take the place of the Ottomans, and the Seljuks pique my interest the most

 

[Elfwine]

well actually calling it "the Seljuk Empire" isn't exactly necessary. i guess what i'm really looking for is some other Turks to take the place of the Ottomans, and the Seljuks pique my interest the most

Pick one of the small emirs. Any of them. No reason Osman had to get lucky.

 

[oshron]

Pick one of the small emirs. Any of them. No reason Osman had to get lucky.

*laughing at myself* i'm trying to find some other beylik that could replace the Ottomans ITTL, but....none of them have the same ring as 'Ottoman' or 'Seljuk'!

i decided to take a look at the last days of the Sultanate of Rum; according to what little i've looked up so far, their last leader was Mesud II, who was a vassal to the Mongols

so this makes me wonder: are there potentially any vassals IOTL that i could base future *Seljuk rulers on so that they outlast the Mongols? i'll probably also look into what was behind the Ottomans coming to dominance and not some other beylik/emirate

 

[Elfwine]

*laughing at myself* i'm trying to find some other beylik that could replace the Ottomans ITTL, but....none of them have the same ring as 'Ottoman' or 'Seljuk'!

i decided to take a look at the last days of the Sultanate of Rum; according to what little i've looked up so far, their last leader was Mesud II, who was a vassal to the Mongols

so this makes me wonder: are there potentially any vassals IOTL that i could base future *Seljuk rulers on so that they outlast the Mongols? i'll probably also look into what was behind the Ottomans coming to dominance and not some other beylik/emirate

No one comes to mind off the top of my head, but I'm not an expert on this period.

 

[Chairwoman Roxelana]

*laughing at myself* i'm trying to find some other beylik that could replace the Ottomans ITTL, but....none of them have the same ring as 'Ottoman' or 'Seljuk'!

Saruhan has a nice ring to it. Germiyan and Karaman are nice.