Canada Wank (YACW)

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What I meant is that there need not necessarily be a large-scale push as per Rhodes OTL - a continuous drip-drip-drip of prospectors / ranchers / farmers across a border separated from Mexico City by the Mojave, Sonora, and Chihuahua deserts may serve as well.

TB-EI

"Put all your eggs in one basket--and watch that basket!"

This doesn't really apply exactly since Mexico has no choice--they have a border region that's pretty much doomed to repeat the circumstances that lost them Tejas--the Los Angeles zone* is right up against British California and particularly a part of it likely to get a fair number of settlers, and the kind of people who settle the middle coast stretches will quite naturally want to move in to what the Los Angeles Times of OTL took to calling "The Southland." A big difference between The LAZ and Tejas circa 1800 or so is that Mexico already had a fair amount of settlers and political hegemony there--but not much compared to what is going to be rushing into British California. To be sure Gold Rush BCal is going, as OTL California came to be for some time, to be centered on the Bay Area. But the question of whether the circumstances that led to losing Tejas will repeat or not is out of Mexico's hands; the question is, what can Mexico do about it.

Meanwhile they have another critical border zone, Nuevo Mexico, which has a definite population zone with a fairly long history of being part of the Mexico-City centered system (under New Spain and now Mexico) but on the other hand, a sometimes unfortunate one of unrest. The Pueblo peoples and other Natives, notably the Navajo, who have the potential of operating more like a Western nation than most Native Americans had, are another possible crisis.

Which, the anecdote says, is translated into Chinese as "unavoidable opportunity." If the Mexico City regime(s) is/are feckless, incompetent, distracted, or wracked by national crisis, there's a serious likelihood these two border zones will drift out of the government's control.

Trying to close off the zones to British contact might seem like a solution, perhaps tried at one time or another in the coming decades and century. But it will be a difficult one. Easier in the case of Nuevo Mexico at first, as the northwestern reaches of Tejas and Louisiana probably won't be attracting much Canadian attention--they'd be more concerned with NM's far northern border, as it is in the way of a decent direct overland route to BritCal. But the problem of controlling NM is one of keeping the Native peoples there more or less on board; restricting them may be resented. In Nuevo Mexico, a gradual devolution of autonomy to the Native authorities may actually be the best policy; the locals won't want to encourage a lot of Anglo immigrants to swamp themselves. But autonomy has its perils from the Mexico City point of view--the upshot is, the central government will realize it has to keep an eye on that border zone, and steer lightly but carefully.

And that a similar policy is in order in the Los Angeles Zone. Building on the existing mission-based Hispanic hegemony there, they need to encourage the right kind of immigration there, and manage things so that it grows in a fashion that keeps it attached to Mexico. The more they grow that central zone of Californias, the more BritCal settlement in their southern border region is encouraged.

Yes, they will run into some water limits. To be sure, the Colorado River runs entirely through Mexican territory and its mouth is in Californias by Nugax's map. Nugax by the way has suggested that instead of the Los Angeles Zone, regions around the Sea of Cortez will develop instead. But those regions never came to much OTL, even though New Spain had control of them long before they sent the mission chain north along the coast to secure OTL California from the Russians.

Mexican Los Angeles will be in no position to extort the Owens Valley waters to be sure. But OTL Southern California developed without these diversions until the turn of the 20th century. Today, according to this, the Los Angeles Aqueduct delivers "half" the water used there.

Clearly if no water comes from the north at all, the potential for development is more limited. But clearly it wouldn't be a matter of getting no water at all. I'd think the Los Angeles region would get at least as much water as it currently does from the Colorado River, even if Sonora and other Sea of Cortez development is somewhat greater.

So, an alternative to Mexico either losing the Los Angeles zone completely or keeping it by rigorously closing the border, thus dooming the region to underdevelopment, might be for the Mexico City government to get used to the necessity of fostering, and closely watching, development of this border zone (and Nuevo Mexico) so as to keep pace with developments on the British side, and to carefully engage the British in investing on the Mexican side while watching to make sure their incentives are to preserve the status quo rather than to adjust the borders to gobble them up. It would be a tricky balancing act, getting the right balance of Mexican versus foreign involvement, keeping the border zones interested in staying in Mexico, while diverting enough profit and revenue southward to make this look worthwhile to the rest of Mexico. But if the Mexican government gets used to this necessity of life, it could get easier. Mexico as a whole profits, and is drawn away from hostility and resentment toward Britain toward a commitment to active partnership. This in turn would make the task of engaging with British enterprise while securely holding the border zones easier. Cross-border enterprise, and migration of people both ways across the borders, would become easier and more routine.

Under those circumstances I may yet get my largely Anglo-influenced but still Mexican Los Angeles, a great world city attracting immigrants from around the world, culturally part both of Mexico and the Anglosphere.

They might even get a fair amount of that northern Californian water; if there are a lot of British subjects and expatriates living in the Los Angeles zone of Mexico and participating in profitable enterprises there, they might have influence to get the British California government to consider selling water to Mexico. Probably not the excessive diversions of OTL! Mexican LA would be dryer than OTL Southern California. But not, I think, dehydrated to the point of death.

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*I can't think of a better name; calling it Southern California as per OTL is all wrong for this timeline, calling it "middle Californias/North coast" is awkward
 
I have to disagree with many of your points Shevek.

Firstly on southern California being an untenable region for mexico. Unlike the US ownership, the Canadians and British will be coming in from much further to the north and there will be less population pressure south. Secondly since its just agricultural land rather than instant gold wealth (thus requiring more capital and stronger legal rights) a border on some mountains will be a significant impediment to takeover - Tijuana saw significant californian presence, yet remained resolutely mexican in the OTL. Also with the importance of irrigation in this region, relationships with the local government is crucial, you can't just waltz in and start farming.

In addition for a large number of reasons there is quite likely to be less population pressure than the OTL. American expansion was driven by native population growth, immigrants (with the exception of northern europeans in the northwest) mainly went to the cities. Canada has much less base stock to drive those sorts of pushes, and an enormous amount of land already to push it.

Secondly there are sources of immigrant power that the Mexicans can draw on - not all of the OTL flow to the US can go to *Canada, and opportunities exist to tap that flow. Secondly the Mexicans would likely see an influx of Americans to bolster their border regions, all which will likely hate the Canadians and skirmish over border claims. Whilst the example of Texas and lots of peoples American Chauvinism would say that would be its own problem, there are many examples of Americans assimilating to different cultures OTL - in Canada or the Confederates in Brazil. For a well run mexico they can be a source of strength. In addition Mexico has rather less alternative destinations, people who would have moved to Monterrey would go west here.

Once you have a strong enough founder presence its doesn't get diluted, as new immigrants will assimilate into the main culture, not the AngloCanadian.

I agree if Mexico city is badly run that will lead to problems in the border regions, but that would be an utter disaster for *Canada, as it will then engender massively hostile powers on all its borders, none of which will have problems gathering allies. The Mexicans would not take losing a third round of lands (worse than OTL!) very well at all.

The British and Canadians won't give a flying shit about the Northern Mexican border - I refer you to the earlier map showing the massive mountain ranges that compose it. Until Mexico has railways coming up into the region, and railways crossing into Canada, the force it can exert is negligible raids. In the former case that occurrence would mean Mexico already has firm control of those regions, and the latter are pathetically easy for the defenders to interdict.

The Mexicans might give autonomy to the native groups, but even without it they are unlikely to jump ship to the devil they don't know. Compared to the rest of the new world at the time, post-independence mexico wasn't a bad deal for the Indigenous peoples.

On Sonora and Sinaloa, their lack of development was due to the problems of water and investment. Prior to the loss of California they had pretty much the same level of development and population as Southern California itself. They just oddly didn't have the same boom that came from being a major pacific terminus of the leading world industrial power and a massive slew of water from the Colorado. In ATL they have the same development potential as the Southland and are just as able to fight for water (especially since the current state set up sees the Colorado going through them first). Imperial Valley style developments using the Colorados water would be even better in those states, as they have the same amount of sunlight and much better soils, in turn creating a positive feedback. Any rails to the LA region would have to go through them first.

There is no need for a major port structure at LA and the attendant economy, ships coming across the pacific would just go straight for the Canadian Termini or the Mexican coast. Without that you wouldn't have a major city and the water the region does manage to gain would go to distributed agricultural pursuits that they can sell to Canadian markets for huge profits.

One the issue of silver mining, its important to note how temporary those settlements were, once mined out people just left the Nevada hellscape . The entire silver mining region in Mexican hands never supported more than 30 thousand people. No way in hell can Mexico not manage that or Canada get in a huff over it (when Britain wants its image to be squeaky clean in Hispanic America). If Mexico can establish a population centre along the Wasatch range, it should have no trouble exerting control.

On a more general note, people shouldn't be using Latin America, since the origins of the term are both post PoD and based on a French propaganda ethos towards the region that might be entirely absent.

@Roisterer: What are you on about, the Monroe doctrine was a British enforced policy up until the 1890s, it won't have any less strength here (Unless Britain starts grabbing to much of Mexico obviously ;)).
 
The British and Canadians won't give a flying shit about the Northern Mexican border - I refer you to the earlier map showing the massive mountain ranges that compose it. Until Mexico has railways coming up into the region, and railways crossing into Canada, the force it can exert is negligible raids. In the former case that occurrence would mean Mexico already has firm control of those regions, and the latter are pathetically easy for the defenders to interdict.

The Mexicans might give autonomy to the native groups, but even without it they are unlikely to jump ship to the devil they don't know. Compared to the rest of the new world at the time, post-independence mexico wasn't a bad deal for the Indigenous peoples.

I'm not quite as confident; without knowing Dathi's plans for the future, it's probably bad form to speculate, but the territory north of the Colorado isn't terribly easy for anyone to get to at this point in the TL; if, for whatever reason, a Canadian founding population can be established (who may at the time pay lip service to Mexican rule) it wouldn't be surprising to see them call on Canada for assistance if Mexico tried to exert more than a nominal rule.

And, if Dathi intends for Josephine Smith, or TTL's equivalent of Brigham Young, to have a vision of moving west, it may end up as controlled by neither.

On Sonora and Sinaloa, their lack of development was due to the problems of water and investment. Prior to the loss of California they had pretty much the same level of development and population as Southern California itself. They just oddly didn't have the same boom that came from being a major pacific terminus of the leading world industrial power and a massive slew of water from the Colorado. In ATL they have the same development potential as the Southland and are just as able to fight for water (especially since the current state set up sees the Colorado going through them first). Imperial Valley style developments using the Colorados water would be even better in those states, as they have the same amount of sunlight and much better soils, in turn creating a positive feedback. Any rails to the LA region would have to go through them first.

There is no need for a major port structure at LA and the attendant economy, ships coming across the pacific would just go straight for the Canadian Termini or the Mexican coast. Without that you wouldn't have a major city and the water the region does manage to gain would go to distributed agricultural pursuits that they can sell to Canadian markets for huge profits.

Valid points.

One the issue of silver mining, its important to note how temporary those settlements were, once mined out people just left the Nevada hellscape . The entire silver mining region in Mexican hands never supported more than 30 thousand people. No way in hell can Mexico not manage that or Canada get in a huff over it (when Britain wants its image to be squeaky clean in Hispanic America). If Mexico can establish a population centre along the Wasatch range, it should have no trouble exerting control.

As I said in an earlier post, I'm quite sure that London would be fully supportive of Mexico; after all, they did try to restrict settlements west of the proclamation line before the American Revolution. Winchester, on the other hand ...

@Roisterer: What are you on about, the Monroe doctrine was a British enforced policy up until the 1890s, it won't have any less strength here (Unless Britain starts grabbing to much of Mexico obviously ;)).

True, however, with the organization of an anti-Delian league, the members of said league may be inclined to test it.

TB-EI
 
On a more general note, people shouldn't be using Latin America, since the origins of the term are both post PoD and based on a French propaganda ethos towards the region that might be entirely absent.

OK, but this is a useful shorthand. If I say 'Central and S. America' somebody will point out that Mexico is in N. America.

@Roisterer: What are you on about, the Monroe doctrine was a British enforced policy up until the 1890s, it won't have any less strength here (Unless Britain starts grabbing to much of Mexico obviously ;)).

Well, we do have the example of the French and Maximilian.

True, however, with the organization of an anti-Delian league, the members of said league may be inclined to test it.

TB-EI

That was the way I was thinking, too.

Regards

R
 
Sorry, guys, life has gotten really crazy the last month.

My son's health is wacky again, for instance, and other stuff has piled up.

I will get back to it. It will be a little bit, though, sorry.
 
Sorry, guys, life has gotten really crazy the last month.

My son's health is wacky again, for instance, and other stuff has piled up.

I will get back to it. It will be a little bit, though, sorry.

Dathi

Sorry to hear about you're son.:( Talk you're time and get back when you can as real life and family take precedent. You're fans will be here when you can get back to it. Best of luck.

Steve
 
Sorry, guys, life has gotten really crazy the last month.

My son's health is wacky again, for instance, and other stuff has piled up.

I will get back to it. It will be a little bit, though, sorry.

Fucking hell eh? It's like a roller coaster. :(

I think I can speak for the rest of AH.com when I say I sincerely hope he gets better soon.
 
Sorry, guys, life has gotten really crazy the last month.

My son's health is wacky again, for instance, and other stuff has piled up.

I will get back to it. It will be a little bit, though, sorry.
Dathi

Sorry to hear about you're son.:( Talk you're time and get back when you can as real life and family take precedent. You're fans will be here when you can get back to it. Best of luck.

Steve
What Steve said.:(
 
OK, guys, here, finally, at long last, much belatedly, is the next installment.

Stu's health was really bad right to about the end of the school year, and then we went on a combined family/medical trip (dad had someone he wanted to Stu to see back in Saskatchewan), which really wiped me out, and then then there was massive amounts of government paperwork to deal with....

It LOOKS like his problem is neurological, with the primary visible symptom being vomiting. For the last three years, he's been very sick in the spring and gets better in the summer. However, there are some encouraging signs that the new med may, just may, help with the whole vomiting issue. We'll see.

But, things have temporarily calmed down, and I really, REALLY need to get a couple of books back to the library, so I'd better get past 1848 ASAP...

Actually, I'll leave this as a news post, since it ended up a bit longer than I had meant it to be, and put the update in the following post.
 
next update. Note we're still in Europe in 1830, and have a bit to go to catch up with what's happening in North America. Also. I had said Italy would be part of this post. It will be part of next.



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Europe 1830-1 (part 2)[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Poland[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The Russo-Turkish war of 1828-31[1] absorbed the attention of the Russian Empire and army, so when the Poles revolted in November 1830 due to the Russian imposition of autocratic rule in violation of the liberal Polish constitution, the Russians were unable to concentrate enough forces to suppress the uprising. In fact Russia had to withdraw the forces that she had already provided to Prussia to help put down the Belgian Revolt. Similarly, Prussia might have liked to have provided help to Russia, but wasn't able to commit troops, as she was overextended trying to put down her own revolts. Prussia did help in minor ways, allowing Russian troops to pass through her territory, aiding with supplies, etc.. Both countries hoped they could quickly subdue their revolts and help the other, but both sets of revolts dragged on.
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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The other complication was that the Austrians had gotten word of planned Prussian intervention in Poland, and threatened to intervene openly themselves if the Prussians did so first. (However, to match the Prussians, the Austrians started helping the Poles under the table.)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Due to the Russians being distracted, General [/FONT]Józef Chłopicki had a hope that Polish independence might be achieved or at least autonomy regained. Loyalists, led by Prince Czartoryski still hoped to come to an agreement with Grand Duke Constantine (who was viceroy in Poland) or Tsar Nicholas. Radicals pushed for an armed uprising, and the moderates allowed (and encouraged) Constantine to retreat out of Poland. Hoping that the Tsar would disavow his brother (either because he hadn't known what he was up to, or to make peace), the moderates sent an envoy to St. Petersburg to negotiate with him. In the meantime, General Chłopicki was raising and training troops,[2] arguing that if a peaceful resolution can be found, they can be used to support Russia or at least loyalist Russo-Polish forces. But because he's trying to straddle the fence politically he didn't dare attack Russian forces, e.g. in Lithuania. The Tsar, however, adamantly refused any concessions, instead demanding complete and total surrender by the Poles, and sent the largest army he could field into Poland. Fifty thousand Poles, many of them newly recruited and hastily trained troops, but defending their homeland and with good leadership met a similar sized Russian force composed mostly of veterans, but war-weary and not so well led.[3] After a day's heavy fighting in the Battle of Siedlce, the Russians withdrew.


By now, outpourings of support from further west have yielded fruit. Volunteers, money and arms were beginning to arrive through Austria, as the romantic image of plucky Poles defending their liberties resonated with many in places like England and France and even the US. While no government officially supported these movements (France was trying to form an alliance with Russia, and Britain didn't want to upset the applecart), there was also no hindrance placed on private efforts. While these true volunteers didn't much help the effort (being linguistically isolated, and low in numbers) they did provide both needed resources (e.g. money and arms), and almost more importantly morale.[4]
Russia reinforced her armies and attacked again, with even worse result, as the Polish forces had been reinforced, too, and now were better seasoned and knew they could win.
Russia tried to make peace with the Ottomans, based on their successes so far, but they, seeing the Russians massively overstretched and already pulling out troops, thought they might push the Russians back and get a better deal. So they negotiated – but slowly, keeping Russian forces tied down in that theatre. They also opened diplomatic lines of communication with the English and French, hoping for support.


And now, a different class of 'volunteers', suspiciously well organized and speaking Polish with strange accents, or not at all, arrived to help to the Polish resistance forces. Apparently entire companies of soldiers 'retired' en masse from the Austrian army and showed up as 'volunteers' for the Polish cause.[5] [Some of the other German states might have been interested in doing the same, but they are up to their eyes dealing with the Prussians. Of course, if they WEREN'T up to their eyeballs in Prussians, the Prussians would be in Poland, too.] Also, the Pulaski Brigade of American volunteers arrived in Hamburg and started marching to join the fight.



Faced with increasing resistance and increasing problems supporting ever growing armies, the Russians settled for a face saving measure. Poland was to stay under Russian suzerainty – but they would regain their lost autonomy and got to keep their liberal constitution. To guarantee that these rights wouldn't be lost again, and to demonstrate Austrian support, they got a Habsburg prince (Archduke Charles, Duke of Teschen[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]). Basically, the Austrians allowed the Russians to regain formal [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]de jure[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] suzerainty[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] over Poland in exchange for a [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]de facto[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] Austrian guarantee of Polish autonomy. This means each side can claim 'victory'. However, the arm of Poland stretching up into Lithuania hadn't been well defended, and the Russians had seized that early on. Thus that part of Poland was split off and essentially absorbed by Russia. Technically, it was an autonomous duchy, but [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]de facto[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] they were a Russian province.[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]As for the Ottoman conflict, the freeing of troops from Poland brought the Sultan to the table quickly. Moldavia and Wallachia got autonomy (within the Ottoman Empire), guaranteed by multiple European powers, as did Serbia, Russia got forts at the mouth of the Danube, the Georgian provinces they had received from Persia, and parts of Armenia.[6][/FONT]



Greek Revolt, continued
The Greek Revolt had been going on, in one form or another, since 1821. There was support from the people of France and Britain for the rebels, but no government support. Similarly, the Russians liked the idea of an Orthodox state – but hated the idea of rebellion. Greeks continued to hold out, hoping for external support, until 1827 when Britain and France and Russia finally agreed to intervene if a diplomatic solution could not be found. No armistice arrived, so the naval forces destroyed the Ottoman (actually Egyptian) navy.[7]


Thus the decision on how to deal with Greece was put off until the peace negotiations for the end of the Russo-Ottoman war. By this point, having seen the amount of support that British and French citizens have provided to the Polish rebels, and having strong suspicions about official support, the Russians are at this point severely dubious about Anglo-French motivations. (There was, in fact, no official government support for either the Polish or Greek rebels, but the Russians don't really believe that. The idea of citizens acting on their own like that is foreign to them.)
So, the idea of an independent Greek kingdom, which they might otherwise have agreed on[8], was discarded, and concept of an autonomous principality within the Ottoman empire, with European (Russians included, of course) oversight and guarantees, ended up as the least bad choice available for everyone. This status more or less mirrors the status of the two Romanian principalities, and also that of Serbia.



Ottoman Empire
The defeats at the hands of the Europeans[9] makes the Ottoman think seriously about the necessity of reform in governance and in the military. Also, the effective federalization forced upon them by these various autonomous principalities needs to be dealt with. Obviously, regional aspirations can lead to European meddling and if they want to keep these principalities[w], which they do, they are going to have to make some accommodations.





[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1 OTL Prussia got Poznan, and Russia got Congess Poland. Here, it seems, according to Susano's map, that Russia got both, and also Austria's chunk of Poland, too. Partly because Silesia is now in Austria Hungary, [/FONT]Hans Karl von Diebitsch [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]is employed by the Austrians, not the Russians. Because he's not in Russia, his vigorous handling of the Russo-Turkish War isn't there, which means that Russia does more poorly, so the two empires are still at war when the Poles revolt. So, not only are Russian forces split between two theatres, and less well led, but 'Poland' is bigger and has more men and internal resources.[/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]2 up 'til now the Polish actions in the Polish revolt have gone pretty much as OTL, at least at this level of detail. OTL Chłopicki did not dare raise or train troops. (Externally, the differences are Russia is still preoccupied with the Ottomans, and that OTL neither Prussia nor Austria intervened, instead both maintained a pro-Russian neutrality.) Here it starts changing. OTL the radicals had a stronger presence, led by Mochnacki. Since he was born after the PoD, he doesn't exist in the same way. The slower descent into revolt means the moderates keep more control, there is less fear that other European nations will view this as a radical revolt, and the radicals and moderates manage to agree on limited land reforms, which keeps the peasants supporting the revolt. The change in attitude of Austria means that support raised in the rest of Europe can be funnelled through Austria (unlike OTL). [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]3 More Poles, better led and supported, fewer Russians (due to the Ottoman conflict), with a less brilliant general. Remember, according to the Susano map, the Russians got ALL of Poland, including Posnan, which OTL went to Prussia, and the bits of Galicia that OTL went to Austria. Thus the Poles have probably about half again the resources of OTL.[/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]4 OTL, there was lots of support among the populace for Poland, as iTTL, but they had no way of doing anything, since Austria and Prussia blocked any help. Here Austria is supporting and even encouraging the volunteers. [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]5 These troops are often from the non-German nationalities in the Austrian empire. The Slovaks can even pretend they're speaking a very strange version of Polish. The Austrians are reserving their main professional army for supporting the German states against Prussia, but would just as soon not send e.g. Hungarians to fight German-speakers. They might get ideas. Of course, supporting a national revolt in Russian territory using ethnic Austrian troops will have other consequences. Metternich is being too clever here, and it will come back to bite him in the future.[/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]6 The Russian gains are very much as OTL, it just took them twice as long to get them. The primary difference is that the Ottomans aren't forced to pay a heavy indemnity, and thus Russia doesn't occupy the Romanian principalities. Also, that Russia had been fighting a war for rather longer on Romanian land, so the Romanians are even less happy with them by the end. OTL and TTL, the Russians were initially welcomed as fellow Orthodox liberators. The practice of armies living off the land meant that the amount of welcome steadily decreased. ITTL, the Romanians, after twice the length of Russian occupation, realize that the Ottomans aren't so bad, after all, as long as they can get a little more autonomy. [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]7 all of this is OTL, so far. However, there isn't a quick resolution to the Russo-Ottoman war, and hence there is no Treaty of Adrianopolis of 1829, where the fate of Greece was decided upon amicably by the Great Powers. By the time this war is over, the Russians no longer trust the Anglo-French.[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]8 A Greek completely independent Kingdom is, of course, what happened iOTL. Here, the Russians and the Anglo-French are more distrustful of each other and fear where an independent Greece might lead. Britain, also, is trying to make friends with the Ottomans at this point.[/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]9 The Ottomans see the loss of their power. What they don't see is how much better they are doing iTTL than iOTL.[/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]10 IOTL, during this time period, the Romanian principalities gained effective independence, or moved into the Russian sphere, depending on how you want to look at it. Greece won full independence and Serbia's autonomy (effective independence, I don't remember when they got de jure independence) was internationally recognized. Thus, OTL's Ottomans didn't have these messy autonomous principalities to deal with. ITTL, they do, and actually stand a chance of keeping them. At least for now. This means they have to do some serious thinking about revamping governmental structure that they didn't have to do iOTL at this point. Whether reforms look anything like OTL's Tanzimat, I'm not sure yet.[/FONT]
 
dathi

Good to hear things are somewhat better with you're son and hope the new treatment works. Does sound rather like their still unclear as to the core problem and are treating the symptoms, but hopefully he will at least have a better time now.

Just admit its so long and the memory isn't what it was so can't remember too much about what is going on in Europe at this stage other than what you mention here. [Sounds like Prussia is having serious internal problems themselves]. Can you give a quick summary please or point us towards any particular posts which discussed it.

I'm a bit uncertain that Austria, especially under Metternich would be so supportive of the Polish rebellion. Less because of the potential fall-out from their own subjects, although that's likely to be a factor then their own conservatism and also the fact it will seriously alienate both Prussia - although they might already be fighting them? - and Russia. Early steps may be under the table but by the time large numbers of volunteers are being fed in via Austria, let alone Austrian troops its no secret anymore, especially with an Austrian archduke becoming the new prince of Poland.

Actually just checked on Wiki and realised who this is. Forgot how young he was when he lead the Austrian armies but he's still a decent age for the period.

I'm not sure that the Austrians would have any inhibitions about using non-German troops against the Prussians as they didn't OTL. In fact their policy was to station forces away from their homelands to avoid them potentially being swayed by unrest/rebellion and a lot of their best troops in earlier wars in Germany came from some of their Slavic and Hungarian subjects.

Also with Germany in considerable unrest itself would a pro-Polish volunteer for be able to land at Hamburg and march to Poland without running into Prussian forces?

Anyway, great to see this back and hope I will start remembering what's going on.;)

Steve
 
dathi

Good to hear things are somewhat better with you're son and hope the new treatment works. Does sound rather like their still unclear as to the core problem and are treating the symptoms, but hopefully he will at least have a better time now.

Just admit its so long and the memory isn't what it was so can't remember too much about what is going on in Europe at this stage other than what you mention here. [Sounds like Prussia is having serious internal problems themselves]. Can you give a quick summary please or point us towards any particular posts which discussed it.

I'm a bit uncertain that Austria, especially under Metternich would be so supportive of the Polish rebellion. Less because of the potential fall-out from their own subjects, although that's likely to be a factor then their own conservatism and also the fact it will seriously alienate both Prussia - although they might already be fighting them? - and Russia. Early steps may be under the table but by the time large numbers of volunteers are being fed in via Austria, let alone Austrian troops its no secret anymore, especially with an Austrian archduke becoming the new prince of Poland.

Actually just checked on Wiki and realised who this is. Forgot how young he was when he lead the Austrian armies but he's still a decent age for the period.

I'm not sure that the Austrians would have any inhibitions about using non-German troops against the Prussians as they didn't OTL. In fact their policy was to station forces away from their homelands to avoid them potentially being swayed by unrest/rebellion and a lot of their best troops in earlier wars in Germany came from some of their Slavic and Hungarian subjects.

Also with Germany in considerable unrest itself would a pro-Polish volunteer for be able to land at Hamburg and march to Poland without running into Prussian forces?

Anyway, great to see this back and hope I will start remembering what's going on.;)

Steve

Basically, having accepted the susano map, i had to work with. The biggest changes are that russia got all of poland, austria got silesia, and prussia got belgiumm.

Otl, 1830 was a huge year for revolts, largely sparked by france, with the ,trois glorieses, replaced the reactionary bourbons with the liberal louis philippe. This then sparked rebellions in the germanies, in italy, in belgium and in poland.

Here, belgium is owned by prussia, instead of the netherlands, so they are even more restive. Prussia has no good way of getting troops there because hannover and the other states between the eastern and western bits of prussia dont want prussian troops stomping through their lands. Prussia raises the ante expecting someone else to back down. They dont.

Prussia is not the huge military power yet that it would become iotl, and against the combined forces of the rest of germany, france, the netherlands and austria, they dont stand a chance.

Of course, france, austria and the rest of germany have their own internal troubles, so its a major defeat, not a total curbstomp.


As for sending nongermans to the fighting. Its not that it would offend the prussians, but the fighting is largely in Bund, ie nonprussian german, territory, and they dont want to upset their allies. Also czech and slovak militia, in particular, are far happier, well less unhappy, helping free fellow western slavs that they can understand if they talk slowly, and in their own neighborhood, rather than being trundled off to ,foreign, lands.

Besides the ethnic austrians are probably the best trained and equipped troops the empire has. And thus best suited for going up against the a.team prussian army.
 
Dathi

OK, thanks. That triggering a few memories.:)

Steve

Basically, having accepted the susano map, i had to work with. The biggest changes are that russia got all of poland, austria got silesia, and prussia got belgiumm.

Otl, 1830 was a huge year for revolts, largely sparked by france, with the ,trois glorieses, replaced the reactionary bourbons with the liberal louis philippe. This then sparked rebellions in the germanies, in italy, in belgium and in poland.

Here, belgium is owned by prussia, instead of the netherlands, so they are even more restive. Prussia has no good way of getting troops there because hannover and the other states between the eastern and western bits of prussia dont want prussian troops stomping through their lands. Prussia raises the ante expecting someone else to back down. They dont.

Prussia is not the huge military power yet that it would become iotl, and against the combined forces of the rest of germany, france, the netherlands and austria, they dont stand a chance.

Of course, france, austria and the rest of germany have their own internal troubles, so its a major defeat, not a total curbstomp.


As for sending nongermans to the fighting. Its not that it would offend the prussians, but the fighting is largely in Bund, ie nonprussian german, territory, and they dont want to upset their allies. Also czech and slovak militia, in particular, are far happier, well less unhappy, helping free fellow western slavs that they can understand if they talk slowly, and in their own neighborhood, rather than being trundled off to ,foreign, lands.

Besides the ethnic austrians are probably the best trained and equipped troops the empire has. And thus best suited for going up against the a.team prussian army.
 
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