AH Challange get the Han Dynasty to Invade Japan

I have thought of the topic alot, and wondering if any motivation could have turned Han Rulers to the East, maybe during the early 1st century AD if Wang Mang never comes to power, Japan Might turn into another Britain, and the Ainu behaving like OTL Celts. If the Chinese could invade Japan I might imagine them trying to establish peaceful dominion with the locals to drive against the north.

Can it be done?
 
The Han Chinese, if it was going to invade Japan, would probably have to go through the difficulty of taking the Korean Peninsula first. And besides, 1st century China already had to deal with South China, which was seen (unfairly) as worthless, so I'm not sure why the Han Dynasty would invade territory seen as remote and barbaric given the costs.
 
The Han Chinese, if it was going to invade Japan, would probably have to go through the difficulty of taking the Korean Peninsula first. And besides, 1st century China already had to deal with South China, which was seen (unfairly) as worthless, so I'm not sure why the Han Dynasty would invade territory seen as remote and barbaric given the costs.

Didn't the Han vassalize northern Korea?
 
Didn't the Han vassalize northern Korea?

They annexed a bit here, vassalized a bit there, and left borders a bit fluid. But I assume that to get to Japan, they'd need to take control of southern Korea too. I guess Han China doesn't have to take southern Korea, since the Mongols did attack Japan from a Chinese-based staging point, but the Korea-Japan route is shorter, and I don't think the Han Dynasty was an ocean-going power.
 
The Han Dynasty would have to have so really good motivation to go invade what would be considered the littlest brother, and a place that be considered backwards.
 
It was relatively good land to settle on, they were partially civilized, maybe if there was serious in fighting within the Yayo the Ainu would take advantage of it and the Han Dynasty might be asked for help.

They did in fact occupy North Korea, South Korea shouldn't be a problem here
 
It was relatively good land to settle on, they were partially civilized, maybe if there was serious in fighting within the Yayo the Ainu would take advantage of it and the Han Dynasty might be asked for help.

China itself had plenty of good land at the time for its population size, they would'nt have a reason to invade islands that were at their closest several hundred miles over the water from their Frontier.

Also, I don't even know if the Ainu knew the Chinese even existed to even consider asking for assistance, which would make about as much sense as Cuba asking Colombia for assistance in the 19th century.
 

FDW

Banned
It was relatively good land to settle on, they were partially civilized, maybe if there was serious in fighting within the Yayo the Ainu would take advantage of it and the Han Dynasty might be asked for help.

They did in fact occupy North Korea, South Korea shouldn't be a problem here

Okay, first Korea is a bitch to occupy because the landscape is really rugged and the fact that there are very few ports worth a damn do a lot to fuckup logistics. You see an OTL example of this affecting China with the aftermath of Goguryeo's destruction: After the Silla-Tang alliance finished punking out the Guri's, the Tang decided "SILLA OMNOMNOM" and Silla were like "FUCK YOU!" then the Tang responded "LOL SILLY DONGYI" which led to an asswhoopin' (of the Tang) so hard that it resulted in no one attempting to seriously invade Korea (and succeeding) until the Mongols decided they had the balls to do so (And even then it took them 3 decades to do it).

And second, China's rarely been concerned with things that weren't directly on it's own border, so why would they even bother?

And thirdly, your political assumptions are all screwy, East Asian politics didn't work that way all.
 
Okay, first Korea is a bitch to occupy because the landscape is really rugged and the fact that there are very few ports worth a damn do a lot to fuckup logistics. You see an OTL example of this affecting China with the aftermath of Goguryeo's destruction: After the Silla-Tang alliance finished punking out the Guri's, the Tang decided "SILLA OMNOMNOM" and Silla were like "FUCK YOU!" then the Tang responded "LOL SILLY DONGYI" which led to an asswhoopin' (of the Tang) so hard that it resulted in no one attempting to seriously invade Korea (and succeeding) until the Mongols decided they had the balls to do so (And even then it took them 3 decades to do it).

And second, China's rarely been concerned with things that weren't directly on it's own border, so why would they even bother?

And thirdly, your political assumptions are all screwy, East Asian politics didn't work that way all.

This is not completely true. Geography is one important thing among others, since the lack of organized resistance let Han China take northern Korea. This is a thread about Han China, so the wars of Tang China are largely irrelevant. Anyways, from a factual point of view, the Khitan Liao did make a serious attempt to invade Korea, though they did not succeed.
 

FDW

Banned
This is not completely true. Geography is one important thing among others, since the lack of organized resistance let Han China take northern Korea. This is a thread about Han China, so the wars of Tang China are largely irrelevant. Anyways, from a factual point of view, the Khitan Liao did make a serious attempt to invade Korea, though they did not succeed.

Well, the Han only took a part of Korea, and the hold on the peninsula was always rather tenuous. I was using the wars between Tang and Silla as an example of how one should not completely expect the south to roll over to Chinese authority (which was freethinker seemed to think).

As for The Liao, they didn't get as far into Korea as the Chinese or Mongols did, and they were quickly repulsed from Korea.
 
It seems to me that the Japanese were quite willing to accept Chinese nominal sovereignty and pay tribute up until Prince Shôtoku's day. Most of the records we have of Japan at the time are Chinese records of the kingdom of Wa paying tribute. Of course, this wasn't actual rule.

This made a turn around in 605, when the Sui emperor Yang Guan sent a message to Japan:

"The sovereign of Sui respectfully inquires of the sovereign of Wa."

Most of the letter was about getting help fighting Goguryeo. And he got a letter starting with this reply from Prince Shôtoku:

"The Son of Heaven where the sun rises addresses the Son of Heaven where the sun sets. I hope you are in good health..."

This letter changed the relationship. Shôtoku was calling himself not only Yang Guan's equal as a Son of Heaven but his superior as the ruler of a superior land. Japan still paid tribute but never again did its leaders gain titles in Chinese records (they were demoted) and China never sent official envoys to Japan since.

Anyways, this insult might be a good time for the two to fight (not Han for over three centuries, I know), but I'm still skeptical about the practicality of the Chinese being able to get an army across the Sea of Japan, even if they get the Koreans to let them through. Before Shôtoku, I don't see any motive for a Chinese invasion. During the Han period it's even sketchier: we have like three records of voyages to Wa, tops.
 
Well, the Han only took a part of Korea, and the hold on the peninsula was always rather tenuous. I was using the wars between Tang and Silla as an example of how one should not completely expect the south to roll over to Chinese authority (which was freethinker seemed to think).

The states during Han times are far more divided and far less organized than Silla. I'm not saying it would be easy for the Han to conquer southern Korea, but terrain should actually be better for China, with less mountains in the south. Still, southern Korea is farther away, and Japan even further of course.

Also, Chinese hold wasn't that tenuous. It lasted about four centuries with the Lelang Commandery, though the others didn't.

As for The Liao, they didn't get as far into Korea as the Chinese or Mongols did, and they were quickly repulsed from Korea.

It wasn't that quick. There were three of them over 25 years, a bit less than the amount of time the Mongols took.

Either way, it's still not completely true. There were serious attempts at invading Korea after Tang times. It just so happens that the Khitans didn't succeed militarily, though the Khitans succeeded in the strategic sense that Koryo stopped supporting the Song Dynasty.
 

FDW

Banned
The states during Han times are far more divided and far less organized than Silla. I'm not saying it would be easy for the Han to conquer southern Korea, but terrain should actually be better for China, with less mountains in the south. Still, southern Korea is farther away, and Japan even further of course.

Also, Chinese hold wasn't that tenuous. It lasted about four centuries with the Lelang Commandery, though the others didn't.

Save for Han River valley, the South is about as rugged (And it's consistent lack of flat land, rather than high mountains that makes Korea difficult to hold) as the North is, though not as high up.

As for the Lelang Commandery, I sort of consider it an exception, because it was the first real such centralized state structure on the peninsula, and really (like in a number of other areas in the world), served as a kind of breeding ground for the Korean states that emerged from it.

It wasn't that quick. There were three of them over 25 years, a bit less than the amount of time the Mongols took.

Either way, it's still not completely true. There were serious attempts at invading Korea after Tang times. It just so happens that the Khitans didn't succeed militarily, though the Khitans succeeded in the strategic sense that Koryo stopped supporting the Song Dynasty.

The three Khitan invasions were different from the Mongol invasions because the Khitan weren't invading constantly over that period like the Mongols were, and the three invasions themselves wrapped up very quickly (With none of them lasting more than a year).

As for Goryeo (And it's Goryeo, not Koryo) no longer supporting Song, that was only in official terms, and we all know how far the official really goes in regards to actual reality on the ground.
 
Save for Han River valley, the South is about as rugged (And it's consistent lack of flat land, rather than high mountains that makes Korea difficult to hold) as the North is, though not as high up.

I'll second this and further it by posting the following map of the peninsula;

390px-Korean_Peninsula_topographic_map[1].png
 
Save for Han River valley, the South is about as rugged (And it's consistent lack of flat land, rather than high mountains that makes Korea difficult to hold) as the North is, though not as high up.

As for the Lelang Commandery, I sort of consider it an exception, because it was the first real such centralized state structure on the peninsula, and really (like in a number of other areas in the world), served as a kind of breeding ground for the Korean states that emerged from it.
Yes, it's inconsistently flat (I should have said it has shorter mountains, not less), but given the higher mountains in the north, I would assume the northern part would be harder to hold. Though, upon closer inspection, I think the Chinese territory was in the eastern part north, where the mountains aren't. However, even if this was the case, it doesn't change the fact that the parts of Korea that China did hold are roughly as mountainous as the parts it didn't hold.

As for Lelang, how is it an exception? It was at least a quarter of the Chinese presence in the Korean Peninsula, and increased from there? Point is, during the Han Dynasty, Lelang (being part of China) was more organized than the petty states and tribes.

The three Khitan invasions were different from the Mongol invasions because the Khitan weren't invading constantly over that period like the Mongols were, and the three invasions themselves wrapped up very quickly (With none of them lasting more than a year).

As for Goryeo (And it's Goryeo, not Koryo) no longer supporting Song, that was only in official terms, and we all know how far the official really goes in regards to actual reality on the ground.

No, I'm pretty sure there were constant Khitan raids in between, though I'm not as sure about that. As for support, I should point out that tribute missions do count as support: they generally entailed trade, so I assume they did so here.

It's Koryo in McCune-Reischauer, though I don't think it really matters.

I'll second this and further it by posting the following map of the peninsula;

See above.
 
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FDW

Banned
Yes, it's inconsistently flat (I should have said it has shorter mountains, not less), but given the higher mountains in the north, I would assume the northern part would be harder to hold. Though, upon closer inspection, I think the Chinese territory was in the eastern part north, where the mountains aren't. However, even if this was the case, it doesn't change the fact that the parts of Korea that China did hold are roughly as mountainous as the parts it didn't hold.

The commadries were in the Northwestern part of Korea, and included some of the easiest territory to invade: The Yalu and Taedong river basins. And again, invasions of Korea, north or South, are still difficult to pull off, given how the ruggedness of the terrain makes logistics difficult.

As for Lelang, how is it an exception? It was at least a quarter of the Chinese presence in the Korean Peninsula, and increased from there? Point is, during the Han Dynasty, Lelang (being part of China) was more organized than the petty states and tribes.

I consider Lelang an exception because China had a very significant technological advantage over what existed in Korea at the time. (which wasn't the later periods) As to what level of state organization existed on the peninsula, it depends upon you interpret the state of Gojoseon (though I think there's definite evidence that the North was father along in state development than the South was during the early Han.

No, I'm pretty sure there were constant Khitan raids in between, though I'm not as sure about that. As for support, I should point out that tribute missions do count as support: they generally entailed trade, so I assume they did so here.

Well, while it was "support" in official terms, this still didn't prevent Goryeo from happily supporting the Jurchen when they got their chance. (And there's also Korea's general complex with any non-Han dynasties)

It's Koryo in McCune-Reischauer, though I don't think it really matters.

It does, because Revised romanization is what the South Koreans use, and revised does a better job of mapping sounds to letters without resorting to diacritics.
 
They did in fact occupy North Korea, South Korea shouldn't be a problem here

This is simply oversimplification. First of all, there were no such comparable entities, since southern Manchuria and the Korean peninsula were fragmented among numerous culturally and linguistically related tribes, and your suggestion is similar to saying that it wouldn't have been a problem for the Roman Empire to occupy Germania. In both cases, although it might have been possible to occupy a significant amount of territory, it would have been difficult, if not impossible, to take over the entire area because of frequent raids and occasional uprisings.

At best, Han control was limited to the Liaodong peninsula and a small portion of northwestern Korea. As people have already suggested before, two of the four commanderies were lost within 25 years, while another's (Xuantu) capital was lost within that time period, and its borders were shifted further north. This suggests that another entity in the area, most likely Goguryeo, had raided the commanderies to the point where the Han thought that it was unprofitable to retain all of them, and were content with a looser control over the region as a whole. The Samguk Sagi also suggests that the Lelang commandery, which lasted until 313, was briefly conquered around 30 AD before the Han recaptured it. This might not be necessarily true, but it, along with other passages, does highlight the fact that there was a prolonged power struggle between the Han and the natives for over 300 years, and this would need to be completely butterflied away in order for the Han to even think about expanding into the southern part of the peninsula.

You also have to consider that the Han was already preoccupied with the Xiongnu for over 200 years, and in fact, the Han invaded Gojoseon because it had allied with the latter, and had also cut off trade relations. The prolonged conflict, along with other ones to the west and south, would be much more important to the Han than taking over fragmented states in the peninsula, then invading what is now Japan in order to conquer more fragmented states. Also, by the time that the Xiongnu collapsed as a whole in 89 AD, Goguryeo would have been developed enough for the Han to just retain loose control over them, as it learned in 172 during the Battle of Jwawon.

This is not completely true. Geography is one important thing among others, since the lack of organized resistance let Han China take northern Korea. This is a thread about Han China, so the wars of Tang China are largely irrelevant. Anyways, from a factual point of view, the Khitan Liao did make a serious attempt to invade Korea, though they did not succeed.

There was plenty of resistance, but over time, many Gojoseon officials defected to the Han, causing the former to weaken and disintegrate. Also, freethinker did create a similar thread before concerning how China in general did not expand "far" beyond its borders.

Also, Chinese hold wasn't that tenuous. It lasted about four centuries with the Lelang Commandery, though the others didn't.

See my response to freethinker above.

It wasn't that quick. There were three of them over 25 years, a bit less than the amount of time the Mongols took.

Either way, it's still not completely true. There were serious attempts at invading Korea after Tang times. It just so happens that the Khitans didn't succeed militarily, though the Khitans succeeded in the strategic sense that Koryo stopped supporting the Song Dynasty.

There were numerous attempts, but at best, the Khitans would have probably occupied the capital, only to be set back by numerous guerilla attempts which would have forced them out after realizing that it would have been too costly to maintain. The terrain would probably be a key factor, not to mention a navy that would supply them as well.

Save for Han River valley, the South is about as rugged (And it's consistent lack of flat land, rather than high mountains that makes Korea difficult to hold) as the North is, though not as high up.

Goguryeo started raiding the commanderies because it was located on rugged terrain, which meant that it had to acquire food and other resources from other areas. This was also the reason why it began to establish a tributary relationship of its own as the surrounding tribes had ample resources, but no or very weak armies.

As for the Lelang Commandery, I sort of consider it an exception, because it was the first real such centralized state structure on the peninsula, and really (like in a number of other areas in the world), served as a kind of breeding ground for the Korean states that emerged from it.

See response to freethinker. There were cultural transfers, but it was just as much a prolonged power struggle.

The three Khitan invasions were different from the Mongol invasions because the Khitan weren't invading constantly over that period like the Mongols were, and the three invasions themselves wrapped up very quickly (With none of them lasting more than a year).

As for Goryeo (And it's Goryeo, not Koryo) no longer supporting Song, that was only in official terms, and we all know how far the official really goes in regards to actual reality on the ground.

Once again, the terrain and resistance were major factors. Goryeo did conduct trade and diplomatic relations after it ceased hostilities with the Khitan, although it did acknowledge the Liao as another powerful entity.
 
The commadries were in the Northwestern part of Korea, and included some of the easiest territory to invade: The Yalu and Taedong river basins. And again, invasions of Korea, north or South, are still difficult to pull off, given how the ruggedness of the terrain makes logistics difficult.
Again, I'm not saying invading all of Korea is easy, but southern Korea also has the Han and Nakdong River basins. If China managed to get Northwestern territory, then I don't see why it can't take the other river basins, at minimum, if it wanted.

I consider Lelang an exception because China had a very significant technological advantage over what existed in Korea at the time. (which wasn't the later periods) As to what level of state organization existed on the peninsula, it depends upon you interpret the state of Gojoseon (though I think there's definite evidence that the North was father along in state development than the South was during the early Han.
I agree with the possibility. However, isn't the Chinese technological advantage exactly what gives it a boost for a proposed conquest of southern Korea?

Well, while it was "support" in official terms, this still didn't prevent Goryeo from happily supporting the Jurchen when they got their chance. (And there's also Korea's general complex with any non-Han dynasties)
That may have been the case. I don't remember.

It does, because Revised romanization is what the South Koreans use, and revised does a better job of mapping sounds to letters without resorting to diacritics.

Okay, now this is where I'm going to draw a line. Use of RR is, to be honest, rather variable. Conventions vary all the time. I'm pretty sure I've seen hangul as much as hangeul. Also, nobody (or nobody I've seen or read) talks about former North Korean leaders Gim Jeong-il or Gim Il-seong, or about UN Secretary-General Ban Gi-mun, or about South Korean President I Myeong-bak, or about Korean war hero I Sun-sin. So, no, I don't think it matters.
 

FDW

Banned
Okay, now this is where I'm going to draw a line. Use of RR is, to be honest, rather variable. Conventions vary all the time. I'm pretty sure I've seen hangul as much as hangeul. Also, nobody (or nobody I've seen or read) talks about former North Korean leaders Gim Jeong-il or Gim Il-seong, or about UN Secretary-General Ban Gi-mun, or about South Korean President I Myeong-bak, or about Korean war hero I Sun-sin. So, no, I don't think it matters.

Well, RR is still kind of a new thing, so It's use is still rather inconsistent, but I do think it's a cleaner and simpler transliteration system and prefer it over the previous version.

On everything else, Dem101 has probably laid a far more articulate response on it than I can manage.
 
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