Ministry of Space, or Briiiiiits iiiiin Spaaaaace!

Ministry of Space
What is it that makes a man willing to sit up on top of an enormous Roman candle, such as a Redstone, Atlas, Titan or Saturn rocket, and wait for someone to light the fuse?
- Tom Wolfe, The Right Stuff, 1979.

We’ve all seen news footage of huge multi-stage rockets lifting off from the Kilimanjaro Launch Facility and delta-shaped rocket ships blasting off from the Woomera Space Center or manoeuvring through the endless star specked space. Or marvelled at the capabilities of the newest Oberon Satellites. Or seen the grainy black and white photos of Malcolm Davis and Ceepak Basheer Saheb as they took their first steps on the pock-marked surface of the Moon. As the mission to Mars is planned and next to five billion non-Commonwealth citizens daily walk in the shadow of the Zuckerman and Churchill Space Stations every day, the British Ministry of Space and their Commonwealth equivalents in the Commonwealth Space Agency – the CSA - can look back at nearly 50 years of space flight and untold successes.

Part I
“All right”, the critics said, “let's build the super V2 if we must...but let's have less of this worship of things German. The Germans didn't win the War!” It was a danger signal, a denial of science. The man who builds a swing doesn't plant a tree and wait for it to grow. He selects an established tree and secures his ropes to the stoutest branch!
- Ivan Southall, Woomera, 1962.

Politicians should read science fiction, not westerns and detective stories!
- Arthur C. Clarke.

The British Interplanetary Society (BIS) formed in Liverpool in 1933, and, due to a peculiar British law - the Explosives Act of 1875 - prohibiting the building of rockets by private individuals, concentrated on theoretical work in astronautics and thus broaden an awareness of the need for space exploration and rocketry. Although the Explosives Act severely restricted rocketry research, certain government sponsored tests were allowed nonetheless. These included amongst others research into anti-aircraft rockets, long-range rockets – very early missiles -, air-to-air rockets and assisted take-off rockets by the Research Department at Woolwich Arsenal in the mid-30’s. Tests which led to the development of smokeless cordite for one.

Even with the legal bonds placed on them, the BIS had nonetheless done remarkably well - especially if one considers the little or no funding they recieved before the War and the fact that their advocacy of using rockets to explore space made many view them as cranks. Still, BIS brought together a brilliant group of visionaries. Among the best known were Arthur C. Clarke and the popular sci-fi writer, John Wyndham. The group also included Val Cleaver, an engineer who would play a leading role in the Blue Streak Intermediate Range Ballistic Missile (IRBM) project and other similar projects. In 1937 a feasibility study of a Lunar landing mission began. With it, the BIS hoped to prove that that such missions were possible.

The technology needed to place a satellite in orbit is very similar to that which is required to move a nuclear warhead over intercontinental distances and the possibility of launching nuclear weapons at the Soviets would by far be the main British incentive for building rockets in the early 50’s. But many who worked on the military weapons saw their initial efforts to build a weapon as part of an unspoken long-term mission to get into and ultimately explore space. One man’s Herculean effort brought German and British know-how and shared dreams together in what was to become the British Ministry of Space. As we all know, that man was Solly Zuckerman.

Unable to raise the funds needed to build large pieces of hardware in the 1930s, the BIS focussed on tackling the theoretical problems of space travel. However, after the first V2-missile attacks on Britain, some members of the BIS gained prominence. Not for their, at the time, somewhat loony space ideas, but for their knowledge of rockets and ballistics. The BIS-experts got an unexpected friend in RAF’s in-house technical expert, the ingenious South African, Solly Zuckerman. Zuckerman, even though he never publicly admitted it, saw the possibilities in space travel and exploration. Some time in late 1944, Zuckerman arranged for a meeting between some members of BIS, himself – naturally -, Prime minister Churchill, Lord Tizard, the government’s technological advisor, Fieldmarshal Alanbrooke, the head the Imperial General Staff, and Air Marshal Tedder. Tizard was very direct in his dismissal of rockets, missiles and other little boy’s toys. It was his firm impression that the Germans were getting increasingly desperate and thus needed those fantasy weapons, the Allies should concentrate on real weapons. Tedder, however, noted that the Royal Air Force was unable to stop the V2’s in flight and that they on impact killed British citizens and destroyed property, which, in Tedders book, meant that they were a very real and relevant threat. BIS-member Val Cleaver noted en passant that not only could rockets be made to transport bombs as the Germans did it, they could also take you into space. In space the possibilities were infinite. At the meeting Cleaver is said to have sketched out the very first spy satellite. Alanbrooke, an avid
birdwatcher, and the ever adventurous Prime Minister seemed to warm to the idea of a concentrated British effort toward designing and building functioning rockets. The RAF’s Department of Rocketry was thus born and placed under Zuckerman’s supervison. After the war the DoR took a leading role in pressing the case for space exploration and research, both in Britain and in the Commonwealth, and got moved from RAF to the Ministry of Aviation. Later it would emerge in its own right as the Ministry of Space.
 
Oh, well, I couldn't help myself. :) A slightly rewritten Intro and Part I is up, Part II will follwow after the weekend...

Hope you like it! And do feel free to throw criticism around in liberal quantities! :)

Best reagds and all!

- B.
 
The Professor said:
dammitt, can't help but remember that Muppets sketch :D
Hehe, yup, just as intended. :D Nah, I seem to remember feeling awfully clever at the time using the Briiiits in Spaaaace as part of the title, and to indicate that the ATL was not a total ripoff! :)

Still, the Muppets were quite funny! :)

For England, oh, and Damn the French!

- B.
 
glad to see this TL back:)

one thing i'd like to see is how different this TL's Britain is especially in 2006. are you planning on any major changes from your 1st version?
 
birdie said:
glad to see this TL back:)

one thing i'd like to see is how different this TL's Britain is especially in 2006. are you planning on any major changes from your 1st version?
Glad to hear it, Birdie!

Blimey, the Limey's will kick serious butt in ATL 2006, not to mention have several non-Causcasians in space, and be on their way to Mars and... and..., and... :cool:

Well, first of all, I think I'll have to have a Labour PM in the 50's, and change some things here and there. Perhaps let more of the non-Space related world shine through. Do a bit more on economics and such like...

Anyway, I'll be more than willing to rewrite parts that you guys find stupid, inprpbale or some such. generally speaking I like it whan timeline grow as a result of debate, feedback and suggestions.

Regards and all!

- Bluenote.
 
Mr.Bluenote said:
Blimey, the Limey's will kick serious butt in ATL 2006, not to mention have several non-Causcasians in space, and be on their way to Mars and... and..., and... :cool:



.

Thats as it should be..............:D

yeah i dont think labour was as inward looking as we think, i mean most pf them still saw UK as a major power...

one thing we might need is industrial reform, requiping of factories and stuff so UK is richer and can make the space equipment.
 
Part II
How posterity will laugh at us, one way or other! If half a dozen break their necks, and balloonism is exploded, we shall be called fools for having imagined it could be brought to use: if it should be turned to account, we shall be ridiculed for having doubted!
- Horace Walpole, in a letter to Horace Mann, 1785.

Science may set limits to knowledge, but should not set limits to imagination!
- Bertrand Russell.

As the Allied invasion finally got underway and the Germans began to fall back under heavy Allied air pressure, it became more than obvious that the War was about to be won. The Allies and the Soviet Union thus bagan toplay political games to ensure their influence and dominance in the post-war world – some would, and rightly so, claim that this kind of intrique had been the norm for the entire war.

Having an energetic and highly intelligent man like Solly Zuckerman leading the DoR fueled Churchill’s always quite active imagination to a point were Hastings Ismay, his personal chief of staff and unofficial minder, laconically said; “Winnie talks about nothing but space planes and rockets these days!” That was of course not quite true, but the British PM seemed to have seen the wider implications of space exploration and control, and succumbed to what was to become kown as the fabled British Space Fever. Churchill is often quoted as saying to Fieldmarshal Alanbrook: “He who controls the high ground is destined to win any given battle. And space, dear Alan, is the ultimate high ground!”

Politically the situation was worsening for Britain, and by default its Empire. The United States of America seemed oblivious to the threat posed by Stalin’s Soviet Russia and the immense Red Army. The French under DeGaulle were already making all kinds of trouble as had they actually won the war by themselves. On top of this, the Soviets seemed hell-bent on taking all they could both in Eastern Europe and Asia. Churchill did not have the same excellent personal relationship with new President of the USA, Harry S Truman, as he once had with Franklin D. Roosevelt, and the more anti-British forces within the US administration had begun to manifest their new found strength without the savy and rather pro-British FDR, and the war, to hold them back. So much so, that at the Yalta Conference in February, 1945, a near split occurred between the British and the US as the latter sided with the Soviet Union in matters regarding amongst other things Poland .

One of the crucial effects of abovementioned split, was that information and data from the joint nuclear program being either withheld or edited by the Americans often leaving the British in the dark. Not surprisingly, the British politicians and senior officers began to feel isolated and alone. Under Churchill’s guidance the British government began to plan for the post-war period; a time where the Empire and Commonwealth might have to stand alone in an increasingly hostile world. It was decided that the Commonwealth should be strengthened, so a conference on a proposed more integrated and united Commonwealth should be arranged some time directly after the end of hostilities. The conference was to be held in Canada – it appears that Churchill had already foreseen the need for more equality between the Commonwealth nations – and would be recorded as one of the deciding moments in British and human history.

Furthermore, Britain and its Imperial Allies needed to be prepared to defend themselves in this brave new world. With this in mind, Churchill gave his favorite trouble-shooter, Lord Mountbatten, an absolute crucial task: track down the German scientists involved in the German nuclear and rocket programmes, and get them to Britain as soon as humanly possible. Seize all relevant material as well, with all means available (The cointinued progress of the Red Army without question provoked Churchill’s wording and feeling of utmost urgency). Mountbatten sat to the task with great vigour. Men like Ian Flemming, Maxwell Knight and the Sterling-brothers will forever be names remembered fondly by the British Ministry of Space, Commonwealth Space Agency and space enthusiasts in the Commonwealth for their participation in Operation Backfire.

While both the US and the Soviets scrambled to gain as much knowledge and as many German experts as they could, men like von Braun (and most of his V-team), Lippisch, Hahn and Heisenberg were taken to Britain in either after the war or near its end. It is rumoured, but still classified, that Backfire-commandos under David Sterling actually engaged the Soviets in several firefights at the time, and later clashed with the American Operation Paperclips and Alsos teams. Even if the stories are only that, stories, they do tell us how seriously the British took the matter, and just how far they were willing to go. What is known, however, is that several Luftwaffe test facilities near the Russo-German front was bombed by the RAF at the end of the war. A major raid on Dresden was among others cancelled and the bombers diverted to other “more important targets” to paraphrase Air Marshal Tedder. Some eight special sorties were also flown against targets in Berlin. The only logical reason for this step would be to prevent German technology to fall into Soviet hands. The German missile assembly center at Nordhausen in the Harz mountains of central Germany was captured by an operation under Mountbatten’s personal supervision, as where several other hey facilities amongst them Haigerloch. As British Paras were dropped near Nordhaus’s giant Mittelwerk facility, Commandoes and SOE-operatives infiltrated deep into Germany in order to reach various branches of the Kaiser-Wilhelm Institute. Where the Paras rushed to the giant facility mere hours in advance of the Americans, both the Commandos and SOE-operatives suffered numerous setbacks, but nonetheless captured both key persoinle and material. Nordhausen ultimately ended up in the Soviet sector, but not until the British Backfire-teams had stripped the place of all that was not bolted down, much to the chagrin of the Americans who were forced to stand by and watch as lorry after lorry carried tonnes of material away at a frantic pace.

Nearly all of the very large number of German scientists appropriated by Britain in Operation Backfire were sent to the Department of Rocketry’s Propulsion Study Centre at Westcott near Aylesbury in Buckinghamshire. The German scientists were from a variety of different backgrounds, not all of them had any specific relation to the V-team who had developed the V2-missile at Peenemünde, but were deemed useful nonetheless and put to work for their new masters. Among them were Dr.Eugen Sänger, Dr. Alexander Martin Lippisch Konrad Zuse and Dr.Irene Brandt. As DoR originally was an integrated part of the RAF and therefore under military control, the German scientists were at first considered PoW’s and were kept in a prison-like environment with barbed wire fences and armed guards. Soon, however, it became obvious that the Germans were no threat, as the Germans self-ironically referred to themselves as PoP’s – Prisoners of Peace – , nor were they uncooperative. Despite some initial apprehension, the barbed wire and armed guards therefore soon focused more on potential intruders and general security than keeping an eye on the resident Germans. At the end of the 40’s all the scientists were more or less integrated in the British society. Quite a few of them would eventually retire to Rhodesia, Australia, the Federation of South Africa and New Zealand.
 
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So the UK puts up more resistance to Soviet takeover of Poland then OTL?
probably at this point we couldnt stop it but i could see churchill resisting.
maybe we also dont deport all those innocent White Russians or whatever back to SU, UK and commonwealth needed manpower postwar.

'fabled British space fever' i like that:D
 
birdie said:
Thats as it should be..............:D.
Quite so indeed! :D

birdie said:
yeah i dont think labour was as inward looking as we think, i mean most pf them still saw UK as a major power....
I agree, men like Bevin and Atlee were more or less ok in my book! The only reason why I originally went for an allout Torry cast of PM's were to keep the conservative underpinning of the British society intact, that is to keep its Britishness. :)

But I intend to have a Labour MP after Churchill's post-war term, and then see the Labour Party reduced as the LibDem's are today. With Space Fever rampant, the Torries for better or worse will rule supreme!

Do you have any ideas for a Labour PM, Birdie?

birdie said:
one thing we might need is industrial reform, requiping of factories and stuff so UK is richer and can make the space equipment.
That is the difficult part, is it not! Well, the Brits will withdraw from most of the world, including parts of the Empire. That means no expenses fighting wars in fx. Greece or for keeping the Germans fed and warm and such like. They'll present the French and US with a bill for bases, help and what not - in the former instance to minimized dept. Keep the Empire in a more lose form - as in the British Commonwealth of Nations, not just the British Commonwealth as before. And so on. Furthermore, Atlees' drive to boost the the British economy by focusing narrowly on exports will not take place and thus the domestic economy will be a bit better, and the industry will benefit from military and space related spendings, and the free Commonwealth marked... or so I think at least!

Any ideas and/or suggestions are more than welcome of course!

birdie said:
So the UK puts up more resistance to Soviet takeover of Poland then OTL?
probably at this point we couldnt stop it but i could see churchill resisting.
maybe we also dont deport all those innocent White Russians or whatever back to SU, UK and commonwealth needed manpower postwar.
Exactly! But propably, yes!

However, this is AH, and Poland and the Polish exiles were a major annoyance and spot of trouble, so... Basically I needed a split between the US and Britain, and Poland was the best I could do!

Hmm, I didn't think about the Cossacks, anti-Soviets and what not. No, they'll stay in Britain, naturally, or go to Rhodesia or some such!

birdie said:
'fabled British space fever' i like that:D
Hehe, thanks, I kind of like it too! :D

Thanks for your replies and kind words, Birdie!

So, any other comments? Ideas? Notions?

For England!!! :)

- B.
 
Mr.Bluenote said:
Quite so indeed! :D


I agree, men like Bevin and Atlee were more or less ok in my book! The only reason why I originally went for an allout Torry cast of PM's were to keep the conservative underpinning of the British society intact, that is to keep its Britishness. :)


That is the difficult part, is it not! Well, the Brits will withdraw from most of the world, including parts of the Empire. That means no expenses fighting wars in fx. Greece or for keeping the Germans fed and warm and such like. They'll present the French and US with a bill for bases, help and what not - in the former instance to minimized dept. Keep the Empire in a more lose form - as in the British Commonwealth of Nations, not just the British Commonwealth as before. And so on. Furthermore, Atlees' drive to boost the the British economy by focusing narrowly on exports will not take place and thus the domestic economy will be a bit better, and the industry will benefit from military and space related spendings, and the free Commonwealth marked... or so I think at least!

Any ideas and/or suggestions are more than welcome of course!

- B.

Mr Bluenote

Not sure you can really have virtually solely Conservative government [or any other party for that matter] for such a long period without bad effects. Will almost certainly led to complacency and moral decay.

On the economy I think Atlee had to go for the export drive to get the money to pay for the imports Britain needed. Would be very difficult otherwise unless you either have the US maintain Lend-Lease for a little time after the war ends, which seems unlikely, or possibly a markedly earlier Marshall Plan. Some sources suggests that Atlee's programme was nearly working but British involvement in the Korean war undermined everything. So if you could butterfly that away, or keep British involvement lower, say only naval/air support.

To get the economic and social reform for a really powerful Britain the key point would probably be educational reform. More broadly based education earlier and more resources for technical skills, along with greater prestige for them. A reivival of the old Victorian valuation of such skills but with a more modern and professional attitude to them. To be honest I think this is probably more likely to occur under a coalition government or even a Labour one as that as the ideological basis for reform. The Conservatives are already rather tied to the old Liberal millstone of minimal government and liasse-faire.

On the non-returning of various anti-Soviet groups that would not only be moral but could also give a good boost to Britain and its position. Possibly encouraging refugees from the Soviet zone to boost both Britain and parts of the empire. Actually I think few if any of those people reached Britain historically. They were captured in places like Italy and southern Germany as the Nazis collapsed and handed over on the inner Germany border and via Yugoslavia.

Steve
 
stevep said:
Mr Bluenote

Not sure you can really have virtually solely Conservative government [or any other party for that matter] for such a long period without bad effects. Will almost certainly led to complacency and moral decay.

On the economy I think Atlee had to go for the export drive to get the money to pay for the imports Britain needed. Would be very difficult otherwise unless you either have the US maintain Lend-Lease for a little time after the war ends, which seems unlikely, or possibly a markedly earlier Marshall Plan. Some sources suggests that Atlee's programme was nearly working but British involvement in the Korean war undermined everything. So if you could butterfly that away, or keep British involvement lower, say only naval/air support.

To get the economic and social reform for a really powerful Britain the key point would probably be educational reform. More broadly based education earlier and more resources for technical skills, along with greater prestige for them. A reivival of the old Victorian valuation of such skills but with a more modern and professional attitude to them. To be honest I think this is probably more likely to occur under a coalition government or even a Labour one as that as the ideological basis for reform. The Conservatives are already rather tied to the old Liberal millstone of minimal government and liasse-faire.

On the non-returning of various anti-Soviet groups that would not only be moral but could also give a good boost to Britain and its position. Possibly encouraging refugees from the Soviet zone to boost both Britain and parts of the empire. Actually I think few if any of those people reached Britain historically. They were captured in places like Italy and southern Germany as the Nazis collapsed and handed over on the inner Germany border and via Yugoslavia.

Steve

i agree educational reforms are needed, cant be too hard to concieve as War has just exposed defiancies and at this point in your TL the UK could have a lot going for it, better off then rest of Europe, skilled scientists, just about to get loads of lend lease. Europe will be behind for about 10 yrs should be enough to develop new products and bring the money in.

Steve- your right the bulk of those people were in Europe and were then deported no matter what, Anthony Eden had already promised Stalin to hand them over but maybe after the Yalta split Churchill could convince the Cabinet to offer all but the most pro Nazis refuge as he did with the Poles.

thinking about it, in 1945/46 the Ministry of Labour (i think) said there were about a million job vacancies for rebuilding UK for foreign (european) workers, so those White Russians or whatever could tecnicall come in some numbers and maybe others could go to Canada, Australia etc.

actually if we want to bring more immigrants postwar to fill those vacancies and become Brits, (I do:D ) there are of course a number of other displaced groups to add to the list
Jewish holocaust survivors (the most logical cos of what happened and cos were stopping them from entering Palestine) Eastern Europeans incl other people who helped UK but now flee Soviets, displaced Eastern Germans, and more italians and poles who came OTL but sure theres more.....

hope that doesnt detract, but it extra population might eventually help, naturally they'd have to live in camps at first and locals might resent 'bloody foreigners' with postwar austerity but it might eventually help Brits to become more accepting especially if there to lead the Commonwealth.

btw Churchill will have to introduce some form of free health and education i suspect, despite what a lot of people think he actually supported it to a degree.

hope this doesnt detract from your TL.
 
Mr.Bluenote said:
Do you have any ideas for a Labour PM, Birdie?


- B.

Hmmn lets see dont know much on the subject but i'll try....

just an idea but for starters if Atlee loses in 1945 you could have Churchill try and make him the first Secretary General of the Commonwealth:D

not sure why but they got during the war, Atlee was popular and its a way to keep him in the history books.

if you want a Labour PM in the late 50's have a look Gaitskill, some call him the best PM we never had, butterfly his illness and untimely death or delay it as another British superpower postwar TL has done.

just my ideas..

edit- one possible nitpick, Mountbattern was in Burma at this point wasnt he...
 
one small thing to consider is i believe Churchill sent troops to Greece in late 1944 probably before the main POD (Yalta split) though maybe not the intial meetinh with rocket enthusiasts(sic)

correct me if i'm wrong

btw how is the new commonwealth gonna impact the Middle east and Israel/Palestine + Italian colonies UK has captured.

jesus three posts in a row- starting to look obsessive:D
 
Preliminary list of British PM’s

British PM’s
There is no nonsense so errant that it cannot be made the creed of the vast majority by adequate governmental action!
- Bettrand Russel.

Hide not your talents, they for use were made. What's a sun-dial in the shade?
- Benjamin Franklin.

Preliminary list of British PM’s in the post-war period in the Ministry of Space TL.

Winston S Churchill: 1945-49.
Winston S Churchill: 1949-52.
Clement Atlee: 1952-56.
Anthony Eden: 1956-60.
Anthony Eden: 1960-64.
Harold MacMillan: 1964-68.
Harold MacMillan: 1968-71.
Alec Douglas-Home: 1972-76.
Edward Heath: 1976-80.
Margaret Thatcher: 1980-84.
Margaret Thatcher: 1984-88.
XX: 1988-92.
Michale Portillo: 1992-96.
Michale Portillo: 1996-2000.
XX: 2000-2004.
XX: 2004+.

The aggressive post-war behavior of the USSR and the failed Yalta Conference in 1944 – in many ways closely tied to the Polish Question - gave Communism and along with it Socialism a bad name among the British. Churchill managed to secure the cooperation of among others Labour’s Ernest Bevin and had the Conservatives monopolize all matters relating to space. The policies under the Our Future Is Bright-slogan, the restructurering of the Commonwealth and the need for a firm leadership in the uncertain post-war times secured the Conservatives total dominance in Parliament.

A dominance only twice in any real danger. First in 1952, when Clement Atlee was appointed Prime Minister in an extremely close run and constested General Election. And while originally quite popular, Atlees’ attempts to stymie the sky rocketing costs of the Space Programme did not in any way endear him to the general public. Atlee totally underestemated the British obssession with Space – with capital S - and was thus to only one to fall with a severe case of malign Space Fever. Labour never recovered from its only post-war periode in office. The Liberal-Democrates saw a massive rise in public support in the early and mid-70’s and the Conservatrives subsequetly nearly lost their majority to them during the General Election in ´72 and was hard pressed to get their candidate the post of PM in 1976. The first female PM, Magaret Thatcher, however, restored the Conservatives to their former glory.
 
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So, Clement Atlee then? How far does Labour will fall in TTL? Will it come back in some form with, errr(look around), someone? This is a great TL, and now it's getting greater!!
 
How's this?:

3 main parties would be roughly:

New Conservatives (formed post Thatcher and more "centrist")
Liberal & Social Democrats (essentially left-centre similar to OTL New Labour
Labour Unionist Party (obviously more left wing than traditional OTL Old Labour)

and possibly a rising Environment Party based on rising climate change and pollution.
 
stevep said:
Not sure you can really have virtually solely Conservative government [or any other party for that matter] for such a long period without bad effects. Will almost certainly led to complacency and moral decay.
No, you're right, but I tweaked the list of PM's slighly, and have some Labour-men supporting Chruchill.

Should I have a LibDem-MP in the late 60's or early 70's? If so, who?

stevep said:
On the economy I think Atlee had to go for the export drive to get the money to pay for the imports Britain needed. (...)
Hmm, well, I see things slightly different. Let me first say, that basically I don't disagree, I however, tend to think that it would have been better for the Brits long term to have stabilized the domestic economy, before putting such power behind an exports drive. The very narrow focus on goods to export brought poverty and empty shelves, or so I see it, and more or less ruined any chance of a modern consumer driven economy (again something I see as essential for wealth and prosperity and for creating a competitive and viable industrial sector).

Good points nonetheless, Steve! And thank you for making them!

stevep said:
To get the economic and social reform for a really powerful Britain the key point would probably be educational reform. More broadly based education earlier and more resources for technical skills, along with greater prestige for them. A reivival of the old Victorian valuation of such skills but with a more modern and professional attitude to them. To be honest I think this is probably more likely to occur under a coalition government or even a Labour one as that as the ideological basis for reform. The Conservatives are already rather tied to the old Liberal millstone of minimal government and liasse-faire.
I agree, which is why I have men like Bevin and Zilliacus rally to Churchill and his cause, so to say. Furthermore I think that the Conservatives whith Churcill acting as PM in a term or two after the war will be more Continental (aka in favour of a strtong fairly centralized state) as the threat of Soviet Russia is very much evident and the USA have proven themselves to be honourless bastards!

stevep said:
On the non-returning of various anti-Soviet groups that would not only be moral but could also give a good boost to Britain and its position. Possibly encouraging refugees from the Soviet zone to boost both Britain and parts of the empire. Actually I think few if any of those people reached Britain historically. They were captured in places like Italy and southern Germany as the Nazis collapsed and handed over on the inner Germany border and via Yugoslavia.
Yes, I hope to make more of this in my updated and rewritten MoS ATL! That said I alwas found Britain to have acted rather despicably just after the war in this regard, but I see the need to placate the more "pro-Soviet" USA as the main reason.

birdie said:
i agree educational reforms are needed, cant be too hard to concieve as War has just exposed defiancies and at this point in your TL the UK could have a lot going for it, better off then rest of Europe, skilled scientists, just about to get loads of lend lease. Europe will be behind for about 10 yrs should be enough to develop new products and bring the money in.
Good points, Steve, and thanks for making them. I whole heartedly agree!

birdie said:
hope that doesnt detract, but it extra population might eventually help, naturally they'd have to live in camps at first and locals might resent 'bloody foreigners' with postwar austerity but it might eventually help Brits to become more accepting especially if there to lead the Commonwealth.
Good points! One of the points I try to make, or so I hope, with this ATL is that Britain would have been better off being less, well, racist to be blunt! In stark contrast to my Luftwaffe Victorious ATL, this Britain is multi-etchnic to the core. One of the first men on the moon, Ceepak Basheer Saheb , is indian and so on.

birdie said:
btw Churchill will have to introduce some form of free health and education i suspect, despite what a lot of people think he actually supported it to a degree.
Indeed,a dn that he most certainly did! In many ways, Churchill was more of a Continetal Conservative than a either liberal Thatcherite or stark raving reactionary as many people tend to think.

birdie said:
hope this doesnt detract from your TL.
Not at all, quite the contrary, B! Nothing fires my imagination and creative drive as a good debate full of suggestions, whether odd or not! :)

birdie said:
just an idea but for starters if Atlee loses in 1945 you could have Churchill try and make him the first Secretary General of the Commonwealth:D
Instead of Konni Zilliacus originally?

birdie said:
not sure why but they got during the war, Atlee was popular and its a way to keep him in the history books.
Indeed, thats' why I put him on the PM-list just up! Ideas regarding British PM's are btw must welcome from all corners!

birdie said:
if you want a Labour PM in the late 50's have a look Gaitskill, some call him the best PM we never had, butterfly his illness and untimely death or delay it as another British superpower postwar TL has done.
Uh, good point. While I have just posted a preliminary list of British PM's, I'll go give Gaitskill a look over! Thanks for the suggestion!

birdie said:
edit- one possible nitpick, Mountbattern was in Burma at this point wasnt he...
He can be back pretty quick, I suppose. I think, I'll have Wavel and Slim run things out east.

birdie said:
one small thing to consider is i believe Churchill sent troops to Greece in late 1944 probably before the main POD (Yalta split) though maybe not the intial meetinh with rocket enthusiasts(sic)
Yup, but I suspect that Churchills focus will be elsehwere in this ATL. One thing and one thing only counts, the suvival of Britain and its Empire in some form. The rest of the world can pretty much sod off and die... Extreme pragmatism is the key world in British politics.

Is this something I should delve deeper into?

birdie said:
btw how is the new commonwealth gonna impact the Middle east and Israel/Palestine + Italian colonies UK has captured.
Humbum, I musta dmit that i see Britain simply leaving... A policy of "If it does no contribute, its on it own", basically and roughly put.

birdie said:
jesus three posts in a row- starting to look obsessive:D
Obses away all you want, Biride - your posts are most welcome! As said. I like the idea of Britain in space and know that my original ATL is, well, somewhat flawed, so I really don't mind rewritting loads of stuff due to suggestions, criticism and npo0vel ideas!

I hope I've made at least a tiny amount of sense with my rants above! :)

Anyway, thanks for commenting!

I hope to hear more in regard to potential PM's and men of note as I have just posted a draft of British post-war PM's!

My regards!

- Bluenote.
 
To look at that list of PMs surely this is a hellish (in the hell like sense) world we live in...
 
M.Passit said:
So, Clement Atlee then? How far does Labour will fall in TTL? Will it come back in some form with, errr(look around), someone? This is a great TL, and now it's getting greater!!
Thank you very much, Passit! I'm glad you like it! Please fell free to comment and make suggestions to your heart's desire - you're posts om my Luftwaffe-ATL are very much appreciated!

Yes, I think so, unless of course someone really disagree and make a good case! After giving it some thought, I think Atlee will be perfect, clever and rather well-liked if somewhat boring. And he seems like a person who wouldn't mind slashing the budget of the Space Programme, which will have collide with the wishes of a large part of the British public.

I see Labour in this ATL as an equivalent to OTL's LibDem's. A smallish party without much poull, but damn hard to get rid of! :)

Besides, I rather fancy the idea of Anthony B as a Conservative, so... :)

The Professor said:
How's this?:

3 main parties would be roughly:

New Conservatives (formed post Thatcher and more "centrist")
Liberal & Social Democrats (essentially left-centre similar to OTL New Labour
Labour Unionist Party (obviously more left wing than traditional OTL Old Labour)

and possibly a rising Environment Party based on rising climate change and pollution.
Hmm, well, Labour could go way left in hope of gaining some support/momentum in the 60's and 70's. And for some reason I like the sound of Labour Unionist Party.

Regarding politics, my very basic ideas is to have the Conservatives be more Continental and true to Churchill for most of the 50', 60's and 70's - that is centralized and in favour of a strong state - and then swing Adam Smith's way with Maggie as the people of Britain get richer and will want more a more liberalized life

The LibDem's could easily by ala OTL's New labour, yes! Good point, Professor, and I think I'll use the idea if you don't mind?

Will any kind of enviroment party form in world where science is God and technocratic rule (well, sort of) the norm?

Thanks for your comments!

Regards and all!

- Mr. B.
 
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