Fear, Loathing and Gumbo on the Campaign Trail '72

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I have been slogging through an HP Lovecraft anthology recently, and it seemed to me that Drew wrote his China update with a solid dose of Lovecraft's horror and degeneration. The part where the documentarian went mad from his research especially reminded me of that.

I agree with an earlier poster that it was the most depressing read since the highlights of Anglo-American / Nazi War.
Hmmmm... the Simon Necronomicon came out in 1977 in a limited 666 copy edition under the Schlangekraft imprint, prior to its mass printing for the general public. Perhaps it could get a more fertile audience in this TL? (God help us if it does...)
 
A Few Notes

This one generated a lot of responses (4 pages) so here are some notes on themes that came-up across several of the posts:

The original name of this TL was taken from Hunter S. Thompson’s excellent book Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail ’72 [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_and_Loathing_on_the_Campaign_Trail_'72] and I added my own element to shake-up the election, the POD, which is reflected in the Gumbo I added to the title, and that Gumbo has been stirring ITTL since.

The original concept was the Undoing of Richard Nixon and in theory would have ended with his conviction and imprisonment while President McKeithen battled Ronald Reagan and the Republican right, while trying to motivate a disgruntled left in his own party. That’ still a valid ALT, but obviously a very different path from the one this has taken.

I was thinking of ending it under the present title with the 1980 Presidential election and starting the next Administration under a new thread title more appropriate to the theme of the new decade such as Rolling the Dice in the Decade of Tears or something along that line.
-------------------------------------------------------

Kiang Liu is writing at the end of the 20th century, and he is doing so selectively when he mentions the outside (thus offering hints). Even he is grasping for accurate numbers even at this late date, as he laments in the text no one knows for sure how many died under the Lesser Mao and the warring states that followed him. Once the Lesser Mao destroys the cohesion of the nation, and it falls, then you are looking at something like a Lebanon or Somalia for the first little while, but on the grander scale. I used the estimates from Pol Pot’s reign in Cambodia and magnified them to fit a Chinese population of around 900 million which was the census figure around that time. The Lesser Mao destroyed all these records so tallying-up the death toll for what he did and what came afterward is numerical guesswork and extrapolation.

A note on fertility and infant mortality. From about 1975 until about 1990 China is not a place that you would want to bring new children into, and even when the biological happens their chances of reaching adulthood are limited by the conditions they live in. Again there are parallels with Somalia, but also other parts of Africa in this. It’s not just famine, although that is widespread, but also lack of clean water, diseases, unsanitary living conditions, migrant populations and brutality along with war all take their toll. The elderly who survive do so because they are already among the hardiest of their generation to being with. Children suffer and the conditions discourage having families.

I would expect the minority populations in China to suffer greatly under the Lesser Mao, so much so that a Soviet Sinkiang Republic or a Tibetan province under the control of an Indian State would be considered an improvement over the present condition. When the gates are opened I believe that it will be found that many of the minority groups perished as slave labour on the opium plantations.

The Soviets don’t intervene largely because an invasion of China would be a large undertaking, and attempting to actually govern the place would be a quagmire. I can see the Soviets pressing along the borders, perhaps creating a buffer zone inside the frontier area where they push Chinese forces back from their borders and establish refugee camps, but a greater effort to rule China itself would necessarily require an international partnership. Certainly Japan and the United States would view any such move as a threat to regional security, and the Soviets would be aware of this. However, the Wallace-Andropov accord on how to deal with the Kwangsi incident does present a template for further joint co-operation – maybe. Depends on the leaders.

For the United States to become involved in another land war in Asia would be politically tricky. The American people would have to be convinced that their own security was at stake in some fashion (the use of a nuclear weapon at Kwangsi won’t necessarily meet this criteria because many talking heads will point out that Chinese ICBM’s don’t yet have the range to reach the mainland United States).

Hong Kong and Taipei are pretty much the only two Chinese cities left, although I can see Taiwanese nationalism taking a distinct anti-mainland turn. Being a Hong Kong Chinese would be like being Swiss in 1945 – your home stands undisturbed while all around is devastation. The Swiss at least had their alps to hide behind.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

India is a project for the next decade. I see it being ripped apart by economic competing pressures as well as geo-political ones. Things have not happened yet as of ITTL 1979 which will have an effect upon India’s (and Pakistan’s) future. I was actually reading some history on the Indira Ghandi period and saw the seeds there; her assassination may have saved India IOTL. For now she remains in prison and Congress is a divided force. At this stage call it a concept in need of development as history unfolds (which is the underlying theme (zeitgeist or Schadenfreude) of this TL really).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I’m going to document the end of the Iberian crisis, but you are correct to assume that the example of Noberto Bobbio will have an effect on thinking in Spain – and Portugal. Bobbio is going to be the winner of the 1980 Nobel Peace Prize, and I can see a future for him as an active UN Secretary General.

To date ITTL there has not been the emergence of the G-7 and the evolution of the EEC to the EU has been much more sluggish.

The Basques are going to get a state out of this, which will have other effects.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

The name of the Pope at the end of the 20th century, Pope Ecclesiastes, successor to Pius XIII. As the first non-European Pope since the Judean founders (foreshadow) he has chosen the name as symbolic of both a departure and a renewal of the Church’s mission to the global multitudes, beyond the past to the future. Thus the name reflects this meaning of the term, all worldly wisdom is in vain without spiritual vision, and that is the mission he seeks for his Papacy, thus:

Wikipedia said:
These are to be the lasting lessons of the book.
Wikipedia said:
Firstly, to "fear God." This point is made throughout Ecclesiastes (3:14, 5:6-7, 7:18, 8:12), though often with a hint of doubt. Here, it is made quite emphatically, with the idea being that one should have the correct relationship with God, where human is subservient to the deity. To "fear God" means to "respect, honor, and worship the Lord."[35]

Secondly, the narrator teaches that the reader should "keep [God's] commandments." This verse, in following "fear God," suggests that one must be subservient to the eternal specifically by observing the commandments. The verse ends with two motive clauses, the first being: "for this is the whole duty of humanity" (Hebrew says ki zeh kol-ha’adam literally meaning "for this is the whole of humanity"). Rabbi Eleazar purports that this phrase suggests that, "the commands to fear and obey G-d were the most important things in life."[36] However, Ecclesiastes ends with a second clause, answering why we should fear and obey God. The answer is because "God will bring every deed into judgment" (12:14). Here, judgement and law are linked for the first time in Ecclesiastes. While judgement has been discussed earlier (3:16–22, 11:9), here it is correlated directly with obeying commandments. While Ecclesiastes had earlier suggested that the righteous suffer and the wicked prosper (7:15–18, 9:1–12), here there is a much more optimistic outlook; if one is faithful according to Qoheleth’s standards, one will be judged kindly.[36]

As opposed to a world where the opposite is the case, and he sees the history of the church in Europe as having furthered that (though he may not say it as directly but imply it in his sermons and writings). I am also suggesting a future Pope who is influenced by ideas from Judaic teachings as well as the usual Roman Catholic cannon.
---------------------------------------------

As of 1979 the evil nature of the Lesser Mao’s regime is still not clear in the West. Much as rumors and stories of Stalin’s brutality were dismissed by the “fashionable” left and even more anti-Moscow elements as either propaganda or exaggeration, so the fans of Maoism in the west, whether strict ideologues or progressive idealists who embrace third world socialism as a cure to western imperialism and capitalism, would be seen as propaganda or exaggeration. I could even see western Maoists dismissing the refugees as anti-social elements fleeing the Maoist nation and suggesting with a straight face that they are the problem, rather than the regime. I saw such from orthodox Marxists in the eighties dismissing complaints about life in the East Bloc. The difference between us and the reason I knew they were full of B#@t was because I had been there, when most of them hadn’t. At this point in the TL I can see the exact same attitude pervading the left with a belief that the west must be wrong because the anti-colonial revolutionaries must be right.

When the truth does come out, in other words when the west can get in there to document it and provide evidence, then they are in for a shock. I imagine that denial will be a first response until the evidence becomes overwhelming, and even then there will be some who will never accept it. Holocaust denial will take on a whole new political cast.

In that context, I don’t necessarily see Ralph Nader’s remarks as being out of context with a left-progressive political movement. They have a hard time accepting a narrative which doesn’t view Communist China at this time as flawed, but making progress after colonial exploitation. To use a nuclear weapon against such a state would cause some on the left to be “ashamed of America.” In part because this reinforces the historical narrative that the United States has been the only nation to use a nuclear bomb in war. This could even acquire a narrative of “Kwangsi denial” along the lines of seeking alternate explanations for what really happened at Kwangsi such as: the U.S. did drop a bomb on China; there was an accident; anti-revolutionary forces based in Taiwan did it (either as a U.S. plot or more generally as a capitalist plot) etc., etc.. We hear a lot lately about how inventive the right can be in manipulating the narrative of events to suit its ideological predispositions, but people tend to forget that the radical left was just as good at this in the latter half of the twentieth century. How else could you get historical narratives that saw the Second World War as an anti-Soviet conspiracy, or Churchill and Hitler as clandestine partners in capitalist expansion?

I could see someone like Angela Davis or Noam Chomsky writing Kwangsi and the American Plot to Destroy the Chinese Revolution.

--------------------------------------------------------------
Djibouti would still be independent and a staging area for the French.

The Bangladesh Independence War mostly took place before the POD

-----------------------------------------------------------

Italian General Election – October 14, 1979

Chamber of Deputies (631 seats; 316 seats needed to form a governing coalition))

Government Coalition (335 seats)
Communist Party – 41.2%: 260 seats (+13)
Socialist Party – 12.2%: 75 seats (+4)

Opposition (296)
Christian Democrats – 35.5%: -- 224 seats (+28)
Social Movement – 0.4%:-- 3 seats (-36)
Democratic Socialist Party – 4.2%:-- 27 seats (+1)
Republican Party – 2.0%:-- 13 seats (- 6)
Proletarian Unity – 1.4%:-- 9 seats (-6)
Radical Party – 1.5%: --10 seats (+0)
Liberal Party – 0.7%:-- 5 seats (-1)
South Tyrolean People’s Party – 0.4%: 3 seats (+0)
Others: 0.3%:-- 2 seats

Prime Minister before election: Enrico Berlinguer (PCI)

Prime Minister after election: Enrico Berlinguer (PCI)


Senate (315 of 322 seats; 162 needed for control):

Governing Coalition (169 seats)
Communist Party – 41.2%:-- 130 seats (+7)
Socialist Party – 12.5%:-- 39 seats (+1)

Opposition (154 seats)
Christian Democrats – 36.5%:-- 118 seats (+8)
Social Movement – 0.03%:-- 1 seats (-19)
Democratic Socialist Party – 3.1%: -- 10 seats (+1)
Republican Party – 1.2%:--5 seats (-4)
Proletarian Unity – 1.9%:-- 6 seats (+0)
Radical Party – 1.2%:-- 4 seats (+0)
Liberal Party – 1.0%: -- 3 seats (+0)
Senators for Life (not elected) - 7 seats.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

January 3 - 6, 1980

Indian National Elections

Government (276 of 544 Seats)

Anti-Congress National Alliance ("The Grand Coalition") 276

Janata Alliance 160
- Janata Party 145
- Anna Dravida Munnetra Khazhagam 11
- Shiromani Akali Dal 4

Coalition Partners 116
-Bharatiya Lok Dal 75
-Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam 18
-Indian National Congress (URS) 13
-All India Free Progress Party 7
-Indian Union Muslim League 3


Opposition (268 of 544 seats)

Congress Alliance 191
-National Congress 187
-Jamu & Kashmir National Conference 3
-Kerala Congress (Joseph) 1

Left Front 68
- Communist Party of India (Marxist) 47
- Communist Party of India 12
- Revolutionary Socialist Party 5
- All India Forward Block 3
- Kerala Congress (Mani) 1

Independents 9


Prime Minister before election: Chanran Singh (BLD) - (caretaker)

Prime Minister after election: Ram Sundar Das (Janata)

-------------------------------------------
 
I was thinking of ending it under the present title with the 1980 Presidential election and starting the next Administration under a new thread title more appropriate to the theme of the new decade such as Rolling the Dice in the Decade of Tears or something along that line.
I like that.

Hmm. So the Christian Democrats actually gained a bit from the coup, though not as much as the government. How's Jello Biafra?
 
Hmm, would people be able to sustain those foolish ideas about China to a large when both the superpowers who normally cannot come to a firm agreement on the colour of an orange, are telling the world how hellish the PRC has become?

Also how acrimonious is India's break up going to be, are we talking a peaceful if heated Velvet Divorce situation, a larger version of the partition or somthing like the Yugoslav wars?
 
The Basques are going to get a state out of this, which will have other effects.

That'll cause tremendous instability in Spanish politics, whether a democratic or nor systrem comes out in Spain, the right-wing will be terribly revanchist and irredentist, especially if it includes Navarre, which is only partially Basque (northern third)
 
The Basques are going to get a state out of this, which will have other effects.

It's your barbecue and you can cook the meat any way you want to. All I have to say is that this piece looks like it needs more time on the grill.

I saw such from orthodox Marxists in the eighties dismissing complaints about life in the East Bloc. The difference between us and the reason I knew they were full of B#@t was because I had been there, when most of them hadn’t.

If you don't mind me asking, how old are you?

When the truth does come out, in other words when the west can get in there to document it and provide evidence, then they are in for a shock. I imagine that denial will be a first response until the evidence becomes overwhelming, and even then there will be some who will never accept it. Holocaust denial will take on a whole new political cast.

Alternately, they may simply rewrite their own history to completely exclude this shameful chapter. Marxist-Leninists did the same thing after June '41 WRT their views about Nazi Germany.
 
Great update, as always.

Italian politics avoiding a great swing to the left is probably for the best. Moscow is probably still rather perturbed to see that Berlinguer is both still alive and still an example of Communism free from the USSR. I wonder if the KGB is considering any kind of political operation to oust him from power within the party and replace him with a more orthodox figure. Or even considering more extreme measures? I believe the Red Brigades were well within the KGB's orbit through their StB connections.


That'll cause tremendous instability in Spanish politics, whether a democratic or nor systrem comes out in Spain, the right-wing will be terribly revanchist and irredentist, especially if it includes Navarre, which is only partially Basque (northern third)

Not to mention the effect this will have on every other nascent nationalist/separatist movement in Europe and beyond. France will have quite a headache in particular from the Basques within its borders, to say nothing of the Catalans, as well as the Corsicans, who now have a rather viable model to follow.

Also, speaking of Spain, I wonder how this will cause people to look back on Franco's language policies? Will they be seen as a cause of the breakdown of the Spanish State, or a far-sighted, if ultimately unsuccessful attempt to hold country together.
 

-------------------------------------------------------

Kiang Liu is writing at the end of the 20th century, and he is doing so selectively when he mentions the outside (thus offering hints). Even he is grasping for accurate numbers even at this late date, as he laments in the text no one knows for sure how many died under the Lesser Mao and the warring states that followed him. Once the Lesser Mao destroys the cohesion of the nation, and it falls, then you are looking at something like a Lebanon or Somalia for the first little while, but on the grander scale. I used the estimates from Pol Pot’s reign in Cambodia and magnified them to fit a Chinese population of around 900 million which was the census figure around that time. The Lesser Mao destroyed all these records so tallying-up the death toll for what he did and what came afterward is numerical guesswork and extrapolation.

A note on fertility and infant mortality. From about 1975 until about 1990 China is not a place that you would want to bring new children into, and even when the biological happens their chances of reaching adulthood are limited by the conditions they live in. Again there are parallels with Somalia, but also other parts of Africa in this. It’s not just famine, although that is widespread, but also lack of clean water, diseases, unsanitary living conditions, migrant populations and brutality along with war all take their toll. The elderly who survive do so because they are already among the hardiest of their generation to being with. Children suffer and the conditions discourage having families.

I would expect the minority populations in China to suffer greatly under the Lesser Mao, so much so that a Soviet Sinkiang Republic or a Tibetan province under the control of an Indian State would be considered an improvement over the present condition. When the gates are opened I believe that it will be found that many of the minority groups perished as slave labour on the opium plantations.

The Soviets don’t intervene largely because an invasion of China would be a large undertaking, and attempting to actually govern the place would be a quagmire. I can see the Soviets pressing along the borders, perhaps creating a buffer zone inside the frontier area where they push Chinese forces back from their borders and establish refugee camps, but a greater effort to rule China itself would necessarily require an international partnership. Certainly Japan and the United States would view any such move as a threat to regional security, and the Soviets would be aware of this. However, the Wallace-Andropov accord on how to deal with the Kwangsi incident does present a template for further joint co-operation – maybe. Depends on the leaders.

For the United States to become involved in another land war in Asia would be politically tricky. The American people would have to be convinced that their own security was at stake in some fashion (the use of a nuclear weapon at Kwangsi won’t necessarily meet this criteria because many talking heads will point out that Chinese ICBM’s don’t yet have the range to reach the mainland United States).

Hong Kong and Taipei are pretty much the only two Chinese cities left, although I can see Taiwanese nationalism taking a distinct anti-mainland turn. Being a Hong Kong Chinese would be like being Swiss in 1945 – your home stands undisturbed while all around is devastation. The Swiss at least had their alps to hide behind.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

India is a project for the next decade. I see it being ripped apart by economic competing pressures as well as geo-political ones. Things have not happened yet as of ITTL 1979 which will have an effect upon India’s (and Pakistan’s) future. I was actually reading some history on the Indira Ghandi period and saw the seeds there; her assassination may have saved India IOTL. For now she remains in prison and Congress is a divided force. At this stage call it a concept in need of development as history unfolds (which is the underlying theme (zeitgeist or Schadenfreude) of this TL really).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I’m going to document the end of the Iberian crisis, but you are correct to assume that the example of Noberto Bobbio will have an effect on thinking in Spain – and Portugal. Bobbio is going to be the winner of the 1980 Nobel Peace Prize, and I can see a future for him as an active UN Secretary General.

To date ITTL there has not been the emergence of the G-7 and the evolution of the EEC to the EU has been much more sluggish.

The Basques are going to get a state out of this, which will have other effects.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

The name of the Pope at the end of the 20th century, Pope Ecclesiastes, successor to Pius XIII. As the first non-European Pope since the Judean founders (foreshadow) he has chosen the name as symbolic of both a departure and a renewal of the Church’s mission to the global multitudes, beyond the past to the future. Thus the name reflects this meaning of the term, all worldly wisdom is in vain without spiritual vision, and that is the mission he seeks for his Papacy, thus:



As opposed to a world where the opposite is the case, and he sees the history of the church in Europe as having furthered that (though he may not say it as directly but imply it in his sermons and writings). I am also suggesting a future Pope who is influenced by ideas from Judaic teachings as well as the usual Roman Catholic cannon.
---------------------------------------------

As of 1979 the evil nature of the Lesser Mao’s regime is still not clear in the West. Much as rumors and stories of Stalin’s brutality were dismissed by the “fashionable” left and even more anti-Moscow elements as either propaganda or exaggeration, so the fans of Maoism in the west, whether strict ideologues or progressive idealists who embrace third world socialism as a cure to western imperialism and capitalism, would be seen as propaganda or exaggeration. I could even see western Maoists dismissing the refugees as anti-social elements fleeing the Maoist nation and suggesting with a straight face that they are the problem, rather than the regime. I saw such from orthodox Marxists in the eighties dismissing complaints about life in the East Bloc. The difference between us and the reason I knew they were full of B#@t was because I had been there, when most of them hadn’t. At this point in the TL I can see the exact same attitude pervading the left with a belief that the west must be wrong because the anti-colonial revolutionaries must be right.

When the truth does come out, in other words when the west can get in there to document it and provide evidence, then they are in for a shock. I imagine that denial will be a first response until the evidence becomes overwhelming, and even then there will be some who will never accept it. Holocaust denial will take on a whole new political cast.

In that context, I don’t necessarily see Ralph Nader’s remarks as being out of context with a left-progressive political movement. They have a hard time accepting a narrative which doesn’t view Communist China at this time as flawed, but making progress after colonial exploitation. To use a nuclear weapon against such a state would cause some on the left to be “ashamed of America.” In part because this reinforces the historical narrative that the United States has been the only nation to use a nuclear bomb in war. This could even acquire a narrative of “Kwangsi denial” along the lines of seeking alternate explanations for what really happened at Kwangsi such as: the U.S. did drop a bomb on China; there was an accident; anti-revolutionary forces based in Taiwan did it (either as a U.S. plot or more generally as a capitalist plot) etc., etc.. We hear a lot lately about how inventive the right can be in manipulating the narrative of events to suit its ideological predispositions, but people tend to forget that the radical left was just as good at this in the latter half of the twentieth century. How else could you get historical narratives that saw the Second World War as an anti-Soviet conspiracy, or Churchill and Hitler as clandestine partners in capitalist expansion?

I could see someone like Angela Davis or Noam Chomsky writing Kwangsi and the American Plot to Destroy the Chinese Revolution.

-------------------------------------------

The far-left in the west is in for a very nasty shock when stuff starts leaking about China. They'll be faced at the very least with the same problem the far right (but not Nazi) parties were faced with in 1945; how to re-establish credibility when faced with having so spectacularly misjudged a regime. Of course nobody could claim the far left in the mid 1980s was responsible for the Chinese disaster, so they will be in a marginally better situation.

I hope you are wrong about Chomsky and/or Davis, I would like to think that they both have the self-respect and integrity not to write a book like that. Sadly, I fear you are bang on target with regards to both of them (although I only really know Chomsky's writing)
 
Also how acrimonious is India's break up going to be, are we talking a peaceful if heated Velvet Divorce situation, a larger version of the partition or somthing like the Yugoslav wars?
I was picturing something broadly along the lines of the Sri Lankan civil war, though I wonder if Pakistan might swoop into Kashmir. At least Afghanistan is better off than in OTL.
 
It's your barbecue and you can cook the meat any way you want to. All I have to say is that this piece looks like it needs more time on the grill.

Mmm, I get that the French and British have good reasons to oppose a successful Basque secession, but at some point they have to give in or look like they're putting down the democratic will of the people, right?

Although I'd expect the Europeans to ask for a plebiscite with long deadlines and a heavily pushed option for federalism.
 
So about those Evangelical amendments, do they represent a conscious snub to Mormonism or was it just zeal in attempting to exclude Muslims that caused an oversight?

Sorry to pester, but I think it's a potentially important development.
 
Actually no, they don't.

Dismissive one-sentence assertions of your own obvious correctness aren't going to convince anyone.

The Basques have successfully revolted against a dictatorship.They hold their territory with boots on the ground. Are the Euros going to force them to return to Spain? Sure, they'll try to push a federal settlement, but if the Basques insist on independence, then what the hell is France going to do about it? There's zero political will in Europe for another armed intervention.
 
Once the Lesser Mao destroys the cohesion of the nation, and it falls, then you are looking at something like a Lebanon or Somalia for the first little while, but on the grander scale. I used the estimates from Pol Pot’s reign in Cambodia and magnified them to fit a Chinese population of around 900 million which was the census figure around that time. The Lesser Mao destroyed all these records so tallying-up the death toll for what he did and what came afterward is numerical guesswork and extrapolation. A note on fertility and infant mortality. From about 1975 until about 1990 China is not a place that you would want to bring new children into, and even when the biological happens their chances of reaching adulthood are limited by the conditions they live in. Again there are parallels with Somalia, but also other parts of Africa in this. It’s not just famine, although that is widespread, but also lack of clean water, diseases, unsanitary living conditions, migrant populations and brutality along with war all take their toll. The elderly who survive do so because they are already among the hardiest of their generation to being with. Children suffer and the conditions discourage having families


Just to be the devil's advocate, I'll note that demographic studies (no actual censuses exist, of course) indicate that the population of Somalia actually grew a bit during the worst of the chaos (the 90s). Also, in poor countries kids are a labor source for their parents from about 6, and the only hope that their parents have for aid in their old age in the absence of any social services whatsoever. So I am somewhat uncertain about how large the decline is likely to be after the Lesser Mao's death, although social breakdown may lead to some pretty darn spectacular famines in areas of low normal agricultural productivity.

Bruce
 
In any case, my guess is that even with the massive decline in people of the 70s and 80s, a population boom would probably start occurring once some degree of stability settles in in the 90s. Then China would look like sub-Saharan Africa.
 
Drew,

I was wondering how the eradication of smallpox went ITTL. ITOL, it was pushed back to Bengal and the Horn of Africa, finally eradicated in 1977, and then declared dead in 1980. However, the WHO had been denied access to China since Mao took power - so, although Mao had (truthfully) been proclaiming he'd wiped out smallpox in China around 1960, the WHO insisted on checking for themselves before officially certifying that the disease had been eradicated. (See http://whqlibdoc.who.int/smallpox/9241561106_chp27.pdf for details.) IOTL, they were allowed in in 1979 to review records and conditions on the ground around the last-seen cases; ITTL, that obviously won't be taking place. Do you have any thoughts on what happened ITTL? I don't think there've been any huge changes in the last endemic regions, so it would actually be eradicated - but because of the huge wall around China, people wouldn't actually know it.
 
Drew,

I was wondering how the eradication of smallpox went ITTL. ITOL, it was pushed back to Bengal and the Horn of Africa, finally eradicated in 1977, and then declared dead in 1980. However, the WHO had been denied access to China since Mao took power - so, although Mao had (truthfully) been proclaiming he'd wiped out smallpox in China around 1960, the WHO insisted on checking for themselves before officially certifying that the disease had been eradicated. (See http://whqlibdoc.who.int/smallpox/9241561106_chp27.pdf for details.) IOTL, they were allowed in in 1979 to review records and conditions on the ground around the last-seen cases; ITTL, that obviously won't be taking place. Do you have any thoughts on what happened ITTL? I don't think there've been any huge changes in the last endemic regions, so it would actually be eradicated - but because of the huge wall around China, people wouldn't actually know it.

ITTL, smallpox was mentioned as eradicated around the same time. Seems reasonable, given that there haven't been too many changes to India or the Horn of Africa (the last areas to eradicate smallpox in OTL).
Interesting point about the records, though.
 

Archibald

Banned
Dismissive one-sentence assertions of your own obvious correctness aren't going to convince anyone.

The Basques have successfully revolted against a dictatorship.They hold their territory with boots on the ground. Are the Euros going to force them to return to Spain? Sure, they'll try to push a federal settlement, but if the Basques insist on independence, then what the hell is France going to do about it? There's zero political will in Europe for another armed intervention.

Ok, if shit is going to hit the fan on the french side of Basque Country, then we are talking about this group: Iparretarrak
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iparretarrak

Despite basically sharing the same goals and methods, it has an uneasy relation with ETA, a more powerful organization based in the Spanish Basque Country, mostly because ETA uses the French Basque Country as a sanctuary and does not want to provoke the French Government in this regard.

Considering comrade Drew talent for dystopia, I'm quite sure Iparretarak and ETA are going to benefit from some blunder by the french government , a blunder that will unite them.

A lots depends from who whin the french presidential election of 1981.

Oh, and Drew, if you really want to doom France like you doomed much of that poor world, I suggest you to try a President Charles Pasqua in the future. Pasqua is good mixture of Agnew and Cheney, the kind of guy to have the Front National join his government. A Le Pen - Pasqua tandem would be very dystopian, very fitting to this TL mood.
 
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