A Map Thread
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NomadicSky
Banned
Wendell where did you get the world map that has NA divided into states/provinces?
Here it is: https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=417354&postcount=69Nomad said:
Dayton Kitchens
Banned
Nice map but just how and why did Australia and South America get hit so hard by nuclear weapons?
I assume the dark red and dark blue areas were the ones hit hardest.
And NATO countries in Europe look like they go off way too easy.
I assume the dark red and dark blue areas were the ones hit hardest.
And NATO countries in Europe look like they go off way too easy.
In this world, Napoleon successfully pulled off an invasion of England (Nelson dies young? The French navy adopts explosive cannonballs? Some bright guy invents the steamship early?), and avoided an invasion of Russia.
It’s 1910, and the last French forces have just left England. It has been decided that keeping a pro-French government in power by force of arms is really more trouble than it’s worth: keeping England quiet has been a headache for over a century, and Imperial France has bigger worries. Rising lower-class radicalism and Dutch seperatism at home, unrest in India and the Persian Gulf, the usual grumbling in the Germanys, the naval race with the US, and the looming menace of Russia from the Baltic to the Himalayas.
Russia, although it avoided the sacking of Moscow (modern development has, alas, done almost as much damage as the fires of our TL), suffered some serious smackdowns at the hands of France in the early 19th century, leading to an enlarged Poland and the return of Finland to Swedish rule. As a result, Russia was rather less complacent about it’s military strength 1815-1855, and made more energetic efforts to modernize than in our TL: not particularly effective ones, being Czarist Russia, but the Russia of Czar Boris is noticeably more industrialized and militarily formidable than that of Nicholas II. Kept out of European affairs, it also expanded eastward more energetically than in our TL.
Austria accepted Napoleon’s peacemaking gift of Silesia rather ungratefully, but over the last century dynastic ties and a common dislike for nationalist upsets have led to a fairly cordial relationship. The present Kaiser, trying to avoid falling too closely into the French orbit, has tried to maintain an equally polite relationship with Russia, but of late this has been strained by the ambitions of Russia’s Bulgarian ally, which has been stirring up trouble among Austria’s Serbian subjects, a policy which although unsupported by the Czar has supporters among Russia’s ultra-nationalists.
After the fall of Britain, France returned in glory to Egypt. The opening of Palestine to Jewish immigration was a whim of the elderly Emperor, but has yielded dividends in the one solidly pro-French state in the area. The French speaking Jewish state, it’s population greatly increased in recent decades by refugees from Russian Pogroms, is solidly pro-Empire, and the Imperial government in response carefully ignores the grumbling of the Catholic church, who finds the notion of a bunch of Jews running the Holy Land rather disgusting (as long as they show no signs of converting, anyway).
Japan was opened at gunpoint as in our world, but the timing was different, which has had knock-on effects on the timing of its modernization. Japan is only now growing militarily strong enough to start thinking of expansion abroad, but there appear to be few avenues for such activity. Korea is Russian, and both France and the United States are opposed to any carve-ups of what is left of China. Taiwan, perhaps? But under what excuse? Efforts are being made to form an anti-Russian alliance with the French, but France is skeptical of Japanese military capacity.
Without the humiliation of the Franco-Prussian war, the French Empire doesn’t have the chip on it’s shoulder that in our TL led it’s officers to seek glory through colonial conquest. With England, Germany, and the Netherlands out of the game, and the US and Austria not really interested, much of Africa and SE Asia has remained uncolonized, although missionaries and arms-dealers remain influential. A slowly modernizing Thailand has recently split Cambodia with the Vietnamese empire: border disputes have started already. Australia is oddly similar to OTL: the French emperors found the notion of a dumping ground for undesirables useful enough, and deported even more people to Australia than the British did. New Zealand AKA New Brittany, on the other hand, is more thinly settled and more Maori than in our timeline.
The United States is not too dissimilar to that of our timeline – rich, democratic, powerful and even more convinced of it’s exceptionalism in a world where Europe has been under the Napoleonic heel for a century. It’s population has a higher proportion of English (refugees from Napoleon), fewer Poles and Jews: it is even less tolerant of Catholics, in a world where the Catholic Church is seen to some extent a tool of the Empire. Possibly less racist: the theory of evolution was developed by a German scientist a couple decades later than Charles Darwin, and “scientific” racism is only just starting to catch on. There still was a civil war, although the timing and sequence of events differed, and the South still lost. Canada, briefly the kingdom-of-England-in-Exile, was before long given an offer it could not refuse: the French Canadians, after a period of loose association with the US, eventually ended up a nation of their own (at the time, there was too much worry that forcing them to stay might trigger French intervention).
Relations with the Empire are prickly: although the French parliament has gained real powers in recent years, the Empire is still ultimately a police state dominated by army, bureaucracy and the Palace. There is also the French tendency to fish in Latin American waters: although the aging and hemorrhoid-ridden Napoleon felt he had as much work as he could handle simply keeping a member of his family on the Spanish throne without also reconquering Latin America for him, his successors never paid much attention to Monroe’s pronouncements, and French efforts to gain political control in Argentina around the turn of the century nearly led to war. Feelings ran very high at the time, and although relations are now more correct, the French and the US continue their contest to build the world’s largest and fanciest fleet – something the French, with their myriad commitments, are finding increasingly unaffordable.
Meanwhile, in a somewhat seedy Boston mansion, the current heir to the house of Saxe-coburg-gotha awaits the call from England….
Bruce
It’s 1910, and the last French forces have just left England. It has been decided that keeping a pro-French government in power by force of arms is really more trouble than it’s worth: keeping England quiet has been a headache for over a century, and Imperial France has bigger worries. Rising lower-class radicalism and Dutch seperatism at home, unrest in India and the Persian Gulf, the usual grumbling in the Germanys, the naval race with the US, and the looming menace of Russia from the Baltic to the Himalayas.
Russia, although it avoided the sacking of Moscow (modern development has, alas, done almost as much damage as the fires of our TL), suffered some serious smackdowns at the hands of France in the early 19th century, leading to an enlarged Poland and the return of Finland to Swedish rule. As a result, Russia was rather less complacent about it’s military strength 1815-1855, and made more energetic efforts to modernize than in our TL: not particularly effective ones, being Czarist Russia, but the Russia of Czar Boris is noticeably more industrialized and militarily formidable than that of Nicholas II. Kept out of European affairs, it also expanded eastward more energetically than in our TL.
Austria accepted Napoleon’s peacemaking gift of Silesia rather ungratefully, but over the last century dynastic ties and a common dislike for nationalist upsets have led to a fairly cordial relationship. The present Kaiser, trying to avoid falling too closely into the French orbit, has tried to maintain an equally polite relationship with Russia, but of late this has been strained by the ambitions of Russia’s Bulgarian ally, which has been stirring up trouble among Austria’s Serbian subjects, a policy which although unsupported by the Czar has supporters among Russia’s ultra-nationalists.
After the fall of Britain, France returned in glory to Egypt. The opening of Palestine to Jewish immigration was a whim of the elderly Emperor, but has yielded dividends in the one solidly pro-French state in the area. The French speaking Jewish state, it’s population greatly increased in recent decades by refugees from Russian Pogroms, is solidly pro-Empire, and the Imperial government in response carefully ignores the grumbling of the Catholic church, who finds the notion of a bunch of Jews running the Holy Land rather disgusting (as long as they show no signs of converting, anyway).
Japan was opened at gunpoint as in our world, but the timing was different, which has had knock-on effects on the timing of its modernization. Japan is only now growing militarily strong enough to start thinking of expansion abroad, but there appear to be few avenues for such activity. Korea is Russian, and both France and the United States are opposed to any carve-ups of what is left of China. Taiwan, perhaps? But under what excuse? Efforts are being made to form an anti-Russian alliance with the French, but France is skeptical of Japanese military capacity.
Without the humiliation of the Franco-Prussian war, the French Empire doesn’t have the chip on it’s shoulder that in our TL led it’s officers to seek glory through colonial conquest. With England, Germany, and the Netherlands out of the game, and the US and Austria not really interested, much of Africa and SE Asia has remained uncolonized, although missionaries and arms-dealers remain influential. A slowly modernizing Thailand has recently split Cambodia with the Vietnamese empire: border disputes have started already. Australia is oddly similar to OTL: the French emperors found the notion of a dumping ground for undesirables useful enough, and deported even more people to Australia than the British did. New Zealand AKA New Brittany, on the other hand, is more thinly settled and more Maori than in our timeline.
The United States is not too dissimilar to that of our timeline – rich, democratic, powerful and even more convinced of it’s exceptionalism in a world where Europe has been under the Napoleonic heel for a century. It’s population has a higher proportion of English (refugees from Napoleon), fewer Poles and Jews: it is even less tolerant of Catholics, in a world where the Catholic Church is seen to some extent a tool of the Empire. Possibly less racist: the theory of evolution was developed by a German scientist a couple decades later than Charles Darwin, and “scientific” racism is only just starting to catch on. There still was a civil war, although the timing and sequence of events differed, and the South still lost. Canada, briefly the kingdom-of-England-in-Exile, was before long given an offer it could not refuse: the French Canadians, after a period of loose association with the US, eventually ended up a nation of their own (at the time, there was too much worry that forcing them to stay might trigger French intervention).
Relations with the Empire are prickly: although the French parliament has gained real powers in recent years, the Empire is still ultimately a police state dominated by army, bureaucracy and the Palace. There is also the French tendency to fish in Latin American waters: although the aging and hemorrhoid-ridden Napoleon felt he had as much work as he could handle simply keeping a member of his family on the Spanish throne without also reconquering Latin America for him, his successors never paid much attention to Monroe’s pronouncements, and French efforts to gain political control in Argentina around the turn of the century nearly led to war. Feelings ran very high at the time, and although relations are now more correct, the French and the US continue their contest to build the world’s largest and fanciest fleet – something the French, with their myriad commitments, are finding increasingly unaffordable.
Meanwhile, in a somewhat seedy Boston mansion, the current heir to the house of Saxe-coburg-gotha awaits the call from England….
Bruce
Constantinople
Banned
Well, there is a bit of a backgroud in my mind. More of a fun TL though, not necessarily realistic. THere are like 10 other maps, though I cant check right now. Basically the cold war is insanely brutal. Massive international exporting of communism. Revolutions around the world. China and india are divided. Then in the 70's Africa has revoultions everywhere. Soon everyone is at war for quite some time. 500 million dead. Most countires everywhere breakdown. Nato does "win" but communism retains control of much of Eurasia. The soviet union and US break into civil wars, the second one in 25 years for the us. (Much of the west coast revolted with the help of the "mexicans".
Fun to imagine, not very realistic. The while areas are areas of basically depopulation and anarchy. The ligh blue and light red areas are warlord chaos, or light control. The slightly lighter red areas in the USSR are the areas of civil war.(The darkest red in the USSR controled areas. (The light blue is a non communist area in revolution.)
I could post ALLL of the maps if you please...
Oh yes, the blue areas in the US are devastated areas of light gov't control.
Fun to imagine, not very realistic. The while areas are areas of basically depopulation and anarchy. The ligh blue and light red areas are warlord chaos, or light control. The slightly lighter red areas in the USSR are the areas of civil war.(The darkest red in the USSR controled areas. (The light blue is a non communist area in revolution.)
I could post ALLL of the maps if you please...
Oh yes, the blue areas in the US are devastated areas of light gov't control.
Faeelin
Banned
B_Munro said:
A couple of caveats.
In OTL, the French annexed Holland and the North Sea Coast of Germany to end smuggling between those states and England. If England is occupied, why bother?
Also, you got rid of the Kingdom of Italy.
Hmm. While I'm not sure how effective this would be... it might work. Nappy tossed the idea about in OTL; but then, he flirted with converting to Islam.
If the US is less racist, expect more Japanese and Chinese immigration.
(Not that that's a bad thing)
The Phillipines might also be a good target.
Err. Was Napoleon's relationship with the church really different from OTL?
Keenir
Banned
Faeelin said:
Didn't Napoleon also say "if I ruled a nation of Jews, I would rebuild the Second Temple" ?
(or is that an urban myth, that he said that)
if he did say it, I'd expect the Catholics and Protestants alike to be getting ready for the Second Coming (since Israel's been reborn).
ironic, that, since some called Napoleon the anti-Christ.
Hapsburg
Banned
From my 1967+ TL. The world in early 1995.
The green is the no-man's land controlled by the pyschopathic crimelord, Samuel Lloyd. It is nominally part of thier respective nations, but are de-facto controlled by Lloyd's well-trained men. The light green are breakaway states who pay tribute to Lloyd, or are alligned with him; they broke off because of the increasing state of fear while they were part of a nation fighting against Samuel Lloyd. The blue are the remaining parts of the UN and NATO.
Certain nations have united to form a strong front against the constant raids by Lloyd's men. One such is the Arab Alliance, a confederation of North African states. Some countries have broken off from the larger ones, such as Siberia from Russia, and Alaska from the U.S. The rest of the world, the survivors of the United Nations, are engulfed in fear and corruption.
A bit ASB, but Lloyd is an ex-green beret with a lot of influence and control (through fear) of all of the major criminal organizations and gangs, and has even caused some army generals and thier men to defect.
The green is the no-man's land controlled by the pyschopathic crimelord, Samuel Lloyd. It is nominally part of thier respective nations, but are de-facto controlled by Lloyd's well-trained men. The light green are breakaway states who pay tribute to Lloyd, or are alligned with him; they broke off because of the increasing state of fear while they were part of a nation fighting against Samuel Lloyd. The blue are the remaining parts of the UN and NATO.
Certain nations have united to form a strong front against the constant raids by Lloyd's men. One such is the Arab Alliance, a confederation of North African states. Some countries have broken off from the larger ones, such as Siberia from Russia, and Alaska from the U.S. The rest of the world, the survivors of the United Nations, are engulfed in fear and corruption.
A bit ASB, but Lloyd is an ex-green beret with a lot of influence and control (through fear) of all of the major criminal organizations and gangs, and has even caused some army generals and thier men to defect.
Faeelin said:
Holland - I was thinking that Napoleon, or his successors would find it easier to annex some areas outright rather than trying to run so much of Europe through often unreliable puppets, and the process eventually stalled out by the time the Empire was roughly half non-French. To some extent, this was a matter of aiming for a result rather than pursuing the consequences of a POD: I figured an autocratic French empire might find it a bit easier to maintain it's position as a dominant power with the larger population and resources it would have with some annexations beyond the borders of 1800 France.
Italy - well, I figured there would be some reshuffling of thrones over the years as branches of the family die out without direct heirs, or someone is needed for a throne elsewhere (the supply of Napoleons isn't unlimited), or the reigning Emperor decides that a territorial link-up between Savoy and Illyria would be a good thing. But I'm open to suggestions for a redo. More of S. Germany is French?
Faeelin said:
Faeelin said:
Spanish, and Spain is a French ally. Yes, probably more immigration, at least for a while.
Faeelin said:
His sucessors have tended to keep the Church on a fairly short lead. Emperor supersedes Pope, and all that.
best,
Bruce
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