Lands of Ice and Mice: An Alternate History of the Thule

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stomach pain and buring in the mouth P: burning
The concentration increase with age, P: increases
as a slave to ease the irrtation P: salve
can be eaten reddily P: readily
contributed the breakage of rock P: contributed to the

The Saxifrage section is strangely broken up.
 
On Alaska, I find myself wondering if the butterflies have spread far enough now that the Northwest Coast peoples are changed dramatically.

Presuming that the Thule displace the Alaskan Yupik and the Alutiiq, they really aren't that far away from contact with the Tinglit. Given both cultures had somewhat of a maritime focus, sea-based coastal trading seems a distinct possibility.

The main question is what the Thule would want from the Northwest coast. It probably has access to far better timber than they can get through their own lands, so it forms a logical basis of formative trade.

I don't know how many Thule domesticates could make it in the Northwest Coast. However, as unlike the other northern peoples, the tribal groups here were either partially or totally sedentary, they would pick up on the advantages of horticulture and domesticated animals right away. This would probably be enough, given the already high population densities in the region, to push the area towards real cities and organized states.

Of course, time might seem short for real developments. Still, contact with Europe was basically nil before the mid 1700s, and it seems they missed out on the Spanish-era plagues entirely, and didn't get smallpox until the 1800s, so they still could have hundreds of years to develop.
 
stomach pain and buring in the mouth P: burning
The concentration increase with age, P: increases
as a slave to ease the irrtation P: salve
can be eaten reddily P: readily
contributed the breakage of rock P: contributed to the

The Saxifrage section is strangely broken up.

Okay, I'm tossing my keyboard and getting a new one....
 
On Alaska, I find myself wondering if the butterflies have spread far enough now that the Northwest Coast peoples are changed dramatically.

Presuming that the Thule displace the Alaskan Yupik and the Alutiiq, they really aren't that far away from contact with the Tinglit. Given both cultures had somewhat of a maritime focus, sea-based coastal trading seems a distinct possibility.

The main question is what the Thule would want from the Northwest coast. It probably has access to far better timber than they can get through their own lands, so it forms a logical basis of formative trade.

I don't know how many Thule domesticates could make it in the Northwest Coast. However, as unlike the other northern peoples, the tribal groups here were either partially or totally sedentary, they would pick up on the advantages of horticulture and domesticated animals right away. This would probably be enough, given the already high population densities in the region, to push the area towards real cities and organized states.

Of course, time might seem short for real developments. Still, contact with Europe was basically nil before the mid 1700s, and it seems they missed out on the Spanish-era plagues entirely, and didn't get smallpox until the 1800s, so they still could have hundreds of years to develop.
I completely agree with this, you set up some really effective nets especially on the eastern side of the rockies where the local peoples were less developed, but it would only make sense that the pacific coast would be far more receptive. Correct me if im wrong but the area of invasion you described seems to be along the eastern coast line and norther plains area... meaning the people of the alaskan islands should be more or less uneffected by this?
 
On Alaska, I find myself wondering if the butterflies have spread far enough now that the Northwest Coast peoples are changed dramatically.

There's potential there, but its not clear how much.

Presuming that the Thule displace the Alaskan Yupik and the Alutiiq, they really aren't that far away from contact with the Tinglit.

The Yupik, as I've noted seem to be an offshoot of the Thule culture. My thinking is that they're entirely butterflied away. Basically, the Yupik don't diverge. Greater Thule population and greater continuity of range mean that the Yupik separation doesn't last and they tend to merge back in or be overwhelmed by subsequent interchange.

So yes, not to far.

Given both cultures had somewhat of a maritime focus, sea-based coastal trading seems a distinct possibility.[/quote\

Although the question is what is the timing of exchange, what's the volume or progression of the volume, and what items.

The main question is what the Thule would want from the Northwest coast. It probably has access to far better timber than they can get through their own lands, so it forms a logical basis of formative trade.

Perhaps. But there's the costs of delivering it. Remember that most trade starts with small, portable objects, often jewelry, adornments, or ceremonial or rare nature products or artifacts - tortoise shells, things like that. The further something travels, the harder it is to transport it.

Copper and Bronze are ideal trade artifacts. Useful, high demand, very portable. Roseroot is also going to be a good trade product. Very portable, lot of bang for the buck, a mild drug.

Specialty wood, transported in relatively low volumes might travel. But it would be very specialized stuff, and for a particular use.

I don't know how many Thule domesticates could make it in the Northwest Coast.

Ptarmigan would be the most portable. Caribou through overland routes possibly. Arctic Hare maybe, but there might be issues there. Musk Ox not at all, not their climate.

In terms of plant domesticates. Sweetvetch quite possible - its natural range extends fairly far south. Not so sure about Claytonia. Roseroot is a maybe. Some of the secondary Thule plants may make it south, particularly the Alaskan domesticates.

I'm not sure that Sweetvetch alone, or in conjunction with a few secondaries is sufficient to establish a 'founder crop.' Possible. But... the more interesting possibility might be triggering coastal cultivation or domestication of indigenous plant species.

Hard to say if or when that will happen.

Generally, an agricultural package is a complex thing, and its not necessarily readily or easily adopted by neighboring peoples. There's all sorts of examples historically where it doesn't transfer.

as unlike the other northern peoples, the tribal groups here were either partially or totally sedentary, they would pick up on the advantages of horticulture and domesticated animals right away. This would probably be enough, given the already high population densities in the region, to push the area towards real cities and organized states.

Ptarmigan could be readily adopted, I could see that. The birds reproduce fast enough that you'd see a rapid return on the investment. Perhaps Caribou as beasts of burden migh tbe worth the cultural investment.

As for the rest, I see where you're going, but it may be tough to get there, particularly in the ever narrowing time frames. The period of significant Tlingit contact and reasonable trade volume, potential cultural aquisitions is probably starting around 1400 - 1450. In less than a hundred years, Columbis is showing up in the Caribbean. The Tlingit and other coastal cultures going south have only a couple three hundred years or so, and relatively little of the motivations that drove the Thule to rapid transformation.

Of course, time might seem short for real developments. Still, contact with Europe was basically nil before the mid 1700s, and it seems they missed out on the Spanish-era plagues entirely, and didn't get smallpox until the 1800s, so they still could have hundreds of years to develop.

The question is, how much and what? What will drive them.
 
I completely agree with this, you set up some really effective nets especially on the eastern side of the rockies where the local peoples were less developed, but it would only make sense that the pacific coast would be far more receptive. Correct me if im wrong but the area of invasion you described seems to be along the eastern coast line and norther plains area... meaning the people of the alaskan islands should be more or less uneffected by this?

The Alaskan push is much less violent than the push further Inland. You don't see the mass waves of migration which devastate southern peoples. Rather, the Alaskan expansion is more gradual, and with more opportunity for peaceable contact.

As to what comes out of that, I'm not ready to say. I don't have a good grasp of the pacific coast cultures, or the factors that would or would not drive change.
 
The Invasion of Siberia

The Thule who came to Siberia did not find an empty land. Rather, the new territories they found were occupied by peoples who were in many ways as effective and competent as they were themselves.

The first peoples they encountered were the Chukchi, themselves an arctic people. It’s believed that a small group of Chukchi crossed into North America approximately 13,000 years ago, and became the ancestors of most of the American native population. They and their language are considered to be unrelated to the Thule.

Like the Thule, the Chukchi had domesticated and used the sled dog, and they had had it for a long time. The Siberian Husky of the Chukchi and the Alaskan Malemute of the Thule are extremely closely related, and while the Chuckchi and Thule peoples were unrelated, the dogs had a common ancestor. Given that the Thule left Asia three thousand years ago, that means that the Chukchi or their ancestors probably had sled dogs for at least that long or longer. The Chukchi were experienced seal hunters and dog sledders for thousands of years, a match for the Thule in this regard.

The Chuckchi were also accomplished reindeer hunters, and may have had domesticated or semi-domesticated reindeer as early as the time of contact. Reindeer domestication or semi-domestication in different areas ranged as far back as 3000 years ago, to as recently as 500 years ago.

Further, the Chukchi made far more use of plants and plant harvest than the Thule of OTL. As a side note, almost all of the edible arctic plants I’ve described were harvested regularly and skillfully by the Chukchi.

In our timeline, the Russian Empire invaded almost continuously, from 1701 to 1762, attempting to conquer, overwhelm, and eventually extirpate the Chukchi and their cousins the Koryak. Notwithstanding that this was the largest European Empire, armed with firearms, cannon, and a thousand years of martial tradition, they failed, kept on failing and eventually gave up. The Chukchi are rumoured to have kept the head of one particularly ruthless Russian general as a war trophy. They were nobody’s pushover.

The Chukchi were an essentially neolithic society confronting a far more technologically advanced culture. How did they win against Russia? They made better use of mobility and climate. Their environment was largely arctic and subarctic tundra, unsuitable for horses. The Chukchi avoided direct battle and confrontation, using their dogsleds to outpace and run around the Russians. Their preference was to wait till the Russians had camped, sneak close, and pepper them with arrows before withdrawing. The russian fondness for camps and supply trains made effective targets.

Another favoured tactic was to lure them into rocky country which offered extensive secure cover. Russian firearms had far better range than bow and arrow, but that advantage only existed when there were clear lines. With short range cover, the Chukchi could reach the Russians with bows and arrows. Bows and arrows in the harsh winter conditions offered advantages to firearms, which were often unreliable.

Economic decisions played a part as well. The Chukchi had little of value to the Russians. They were not major fur producers. Most of the Fur harvest took place further south in the Steppe. After seventy years of major expenditure, the Russians simply added up the numbers and decided it wasn’t worth it. They then shifted to trading posts, and this became the effective means of political and economic domination. There’s more than one way to skin a cat.

Now the struggle between the Chukchi and the Russians is hardly indicative of how the Thule would fare against the Chukchi. But its pretty clear that they were a hardy, warlike people with mastery of their environment and an arctic package as or more sophisticated than the OTL Thule. In short, the Chukchi were going to be tough customers.

South of the Chukchi, occupying the north half of the Kamchatka peninsula, and the adjacent portions of the Siberian mainland were the Koryak, a closely related people. As capable and as warlike as the Chukchi, they’d also kicked Russian ass. They tended to divide into two groups, the village Koryuk, who made their living fishing and hunting seal along the coast, and the inland Koryuk who subsisted on hunting or herding caribou.

The Koryuk language and mythology seem closely related to those of the Indians of the British Colombia and Alaskan panhandle. As much as 80% of their myths and folktales seem to overlap.

And to the south of that, on Kamchatka, were the Itelman, another relative of the Chukchi and Koryak, another arctic or sub-arctic people. As we moved south, population density increased, and with proximity came warfare When the Russians began exploring the region in our timeline, they found the Itelman living in fortified villages, making regular war upon their neighbors. They ingratiated themselves by using their weapons to destroy some groups of Itelmen for other groups of Itelmen.

The Itelmens to the south didn’t do nearly as well against the Russians, despite greater population and a more settled population. Part of the problem, I think, was that they were a much more settled people, living in stable communities. The Chukchi were regional nomads so it amounted to very little effort to pull up stakes and lead the Russians on a chase. The Itelmen were not nearly so mobile. As well, the Itelmen were probably relatively wealthier. They inhabited a warmer region, produced more valuable furs, etc. More incentive to overrun them.

Although more advanced than the Chukchi in terms of being comparatively wealthier, more populous and living in fortified communities, they were more generally accessible by sea, they were neolithic, they were non-agricultural, and they weren’t politically organized. Living in communities made them a bigger and easier target, and there was much more pay off.

East of the Chukchi and Koryak, in the far north, were the Yakut, a widespread and very successful peoples. The Yakut practiced a variety of lifestyles. Inland, where summer temperatures were moderate, and trees and grassland endured, they herded cattle, raised horses and practiced horticulture.

As they moved north to the arctic coasts, they abandoned most of their domesticates, shifting to a lifestyle based around reindeer herding and fishing.

Prior to the Yakut, the Evens, Evenk and Yukaghir had occupied the arctic coastlines, and these peoples still persisted in many areas.

This is barely more than a snapshot of what the Thule faced as they made their way across the Bering strait into Siberia.

In OTL, the Thule did succeed in crossing and establishing themselves along the siberian coasts of the Chukchi peninsula. So, there must have been some advantages to the Thule toolkit that allowed them to compete and find a niche.

But they never succeeded in displacing the Chukchi as they did the Dorset, or even pushing far into Chukchi territories. Certainly they never confronted the Koryak, the Italmen, the Yakut, Even and Evenks or others. The peoples they met, on the whole, were a match or more than a match for them, had equivalent or superior packages, more varied diets, more plants, and perhaps even domesticated reindeer in addition to dogs.

My impression was that the Siberian Thule who became the Yupik survived because they managed to occupy the most marginal coastal lands where even the Chukchi had difficulty. Thule likely had been able to find a place for themselves at the edges, in lands and shores too barren for their neighbors, and eke out a precarious existence, using their ability to survive and prosper where no one else could.

It’s also likely that the Thule migration to Siberia came in relatively small numbers, which made it difficult for them to push the Chukchi, who had the population advantage. The upside of that might have been that relatively small numbers put less pressure on the land and tended not to bring them into conflict with the Chukchi.

Initially, it occurs in OTL, with the proto-Yupik, hunter/gatherers establishing themselves along the coasts of the Chukchi peninsula in areas too marginal for the Chukchi.

But there’s more of them in this ATL. And they come in further waves, staying with their relatives and then moving on, looking for lands that they can survive in, lands that they do not have to contest.

So they move a lot further along the coasts, along the Arctic and Pacific. There’s also more friction with the Chukchi. Their consumption of plants gives them a little bit of an advantage over their OTL counterparts. But these are extremely marginal areas, so there’s not a lot of Sweetvetch or Claytonia overall. There's probably a tendency to a plant free diet, initially, and perhaps a tendency to import or invent the same pre-agricultural practices that we see in the east.

Where they start to diverge is when subsequent groups of Thule start coming in, bringing with them copper and bronze tools and weapons, and the pre-agricultural and components of agricultural practice.

There is more conflict with the Chukchi, but increasingly, the Thule have an edge in terms of land use. Ptarmigan and microclimate engineering allows them a stronger food base for their population.

There will be head to head competition in that both Chuchki and Thule have sled dogs and caribou as herd animals. I don’t know if the Chuchki ride caribou, I think that there may be some evidence of that. But if they do, the Thule will pick it up fast. Overall, the Thule may make more efficient use of Caribou as pack and draft animals.

But the real game changer will be Musk Ox, which will give the Thule clear production advantage in the most marginal areas. Tolerant to conditions that even reindeer or caribou have trouble with, they have no counterparts in Siberia. There are no Siberian Musk Ox. They’re a competitive edge in the most marginal regions, allowing the Thule to prosper where the Chuckchi are weak. And where the Thule can establish a beach head and prosper, they can eventually push.

That and microclimate agriculture which follows, as it comes together fully, will see the Thule’s less productive territory becoming more productive than the Chuchki. From there, the Chuchki get slowly pushed back.

It will not be easy, the Chuchki are ferocious enough to kick Russian ass. They’ll probably hang onto at least some of their territory, and may displace internal groups.

But this timeline, the Thule were coming in greater numbers, more closely integrated with their home society and thus able to draw on allies in Alaska. They came with an improved or improving hunting package that extended to toggle harpoons, fish traps and fish nets acquired from the east and south.

They came with copper and bronze. They came with a potent suite of domesticates that extended beyond dogs and reindeer, but included musk ox, ptarmigan, hare and even semi-domesticates.

And they came with a set of pre-agricultural and agricultural practices that allowed them to make formerly barren lands produce, to increase harvests beyond those of their neighbors and to extend harvests beyond the ranges where they’d previously been possible.

The Thule, travelling along the Arctic ocean coasts will eventually move past the Chukchi, or bypass them, and encounter the Yakut. They push the Yakut inland, relying on their cultural and technological superior package. But probably when they get to the steppe and grasslands, that will be their limit. The Yakut package at that point beats the Thule package.

Kamchatka is going to be a battle zone as the Chuchki, retreat and merge with the Koryuk who merge with the Italmen. You might see some caste evolution going on, as the Chuchki and Koryuk conquer the more numerous Italmen, and set themselves up as a warrior or noble class.

Alternately, they may just pile up in layers, with Chuchki pushing Koryuk south, the Koryuk pushing the Italmen south.

The further south, the more alien the landscape is going to be for the Thule. Musk Ox will fare poorly. Pycrete storage will become unreliable. The more effective the defenders are going to be. And some likelihood that they may even acquire or reproduce the Thule agricultural package.
 
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Chuckchi were also also accomplished P: were also accomplished
exploring the region in our time line P: timeline
the Koryuk pushing the Chuchki south. P: the Italmen south.

Specialty wood, transported in relatively low volumes might travel.
One way to transport wood is as boats, since the Thule are coming for better trees anyway. Trade copper/bronze tools to the Northwest coast and as part of the deal have them build you a better canoe/boat to get back filled with whatever other trade goods you manage to get.
 
Chuckchi were also also accomplished P: were also accomplished
exploring the region in our time line P: timeline
the Koryuk pushing the Chuchki south. P: the Italmen south.

corrected.

One way to transport wood is as boats, since the Thule are coming for better trees anyway. Trade copper/bronze tools to the Northwest coast and as part of the deal have them build you a better canoe/boat to get back filled with whatever other trade goods you manage to get.

With boats being dismantled for their wood on a frequent basis? That's kind of ingenious.
 

FDW

Banned
I wonder, do you think we can get a visual of TTL's area of the Thule culture by about 1600 AD?
 
I wonder, do you think we can get a visual of TTL's area of the Thule culture by about 1600 AD?

I'm not DirtyCommie nor DValdron and they may not approve this message, but my impression thus far is something like this:

(The "core region" being the zones we've been told they are already in as of 1500; the Siberian venture seems new and tough going and limited as yet to the far northeast tip, though I'd think they'd progress pretty fast along the Arctic coast itself until they run into Russians anyway. I've indicated speculations and dubious ventures with blocks of text. I expect that on the whole they won't progress much farther in America than as of 1500, because they are hitting natural limits beyond which other agricultural packages are more productive and therefore established populations are more tenacious and they are less so; the Europeans would tend to firm up those limits and maybe push back north some. I expect the most advance along the Siberian/north Russian Arctic coast, maybe some penetration past NE Siberia to the north Pacific, aided perhaps by seawise ventures from Alaska; DValdron has always been dubious of my notion that there would be more effective cultural exchange and joint ventures along the American Pacific coast but it seems natural to me so I wrote it in--the Europeans would be a long time before bothering them there; in Russia I'd think they'd have an easy time spreading along the coast but the Russians would pre-empt them inland to the south. That's my guess!)

Thule-region.jpg
 
Just to let you know, the Thule Agricultural complex is basically mapped out.

It amounts to a lot of Microclimate Engineering, three key root staples - Claytonia, Sweetvetch, and Roseroot, a couple of root near staples - Bistort and Fireweed, and then a handful of cultivated leaf and stem crops which aren't terribly nutritious but supplement the diet and there's not a lot better, and a number of berry crops. There's a couple of microlivestock which provide meat, and secondaries like fur, feather and eggs. There's a couple of big livestock which provide labour, meat and secondaries in settled areas, and which are herded in the poorer areas for meat and secondaries. And there's a few semi-domesticates.

The Thule have pretty much scooped the viable domesticates and semi-domesticates available to them in their environment. There's a few plants that are edible that they're not cultivating, but for one reason or another, they're just not viable. They're moving into a conservative phase of agriculture.

As they move south, they might adopt other domesticates, but probably won't, simply for innate conservatism. They could, for instance, try and domesticate or raise wild rice past the treelines. But wild rice cultivation is pretty alien to what they know of agriculture, so they'll skip it. They might drop a few other opportunities.

Most of the arctic and sub-arctic plants in Siberia were already available to them, so no new cultivars there. They might start eating pine nuts on Kamchatka, but that's about it.

The Norse interchange is coming up, and they'll adopt some parts of the failing norse package. It'll be tough, and in many cases marginal, but they'll adopt the parts of the norse package that look the most like what they're already using, like carrots. And they'll use microclimates to keep these going where the norse with their own methods could not.

After the Norse interchange, I might spend some time talking about the Sea Economy, which has come up from time to time, but hasn't been canvassed in too much depth.

Oh, and there's a couple of diseases that will come into play. And some climate things.
 
Okay, I want to discuss the Northwest Coast in greater detail, but first, here's an OTL map of Alaskan Languages.

anlc_map.jpg


For those not in the know, the Alutiiq are a branch of Yupik, not Aleuts. However, they developed systems of marine subsistence similar to the Aleut, and rather different from other Inuit. I believe at minimum, therefore, one can assume there would be Thule settlements on the Gulf of Alaska. From here it isn't far to reach the Tinglit - although it's further than you think, considering we don't consider the scale of Alaska (about the distance Kansas City is from Nashville).

Still, there's every reason to think that the expansion will go further. While true, arctic tundra peters out around the Alaskan peninsula, there's a nearly continuous band of alpine tundra which runs in-between the coast and the taiga. I think this, rather than the taiga of central Alaska, is the likely migration path for the Thule.

about_us_fig1.jpg


Look here if you want detail about Alaskan biomes.

So, it seems plausible that the Thule culture's limits will come close to abutting, if not be directly adjacent to, the Northwest Coast. So what can we say about the Northwest Coast?

First, it was a place of unrivaled bounty IOTL. Indeed, it is the only known location where hunter-gatherer culture produced advanced cultural traits the most notable commonalities were.

1. Permanent settlements, including walled fortifications in some areas.
2. A class structure, including nobility at the top, and slaves at the bottom.
3. Concepts of private property and proto-currency (use of shells as money).

Essentially, despite lacking any form of agriculture, Northwest Coast society was roughly as advanced as say the Maori of OTL.

The high population densities meant that despite relative plenty, warfare between the different ethnic groups was common (hence the need for fortifications, and the prevalence of slaves).

As to Trade, I'm going to quote from this website

A vast and ancient trade network linked the Northwest Coast with the interior Athapaskan Subarctic tribes. Certain Tlingit chiefs retained hereditary rights to trade with Athapaskan leaders, marrying their kinswomen to tighten their bond. Each generation, men of particular Tlingit noble houses married Dine women of high degree.

Trade routes went up river valleys (such as the Taku, Stikine, Alsek) and over mountain passes (named Chilkat, Chilcoot). Goods were taken in canoes upriver as far as possible, then switched into male slaves' backpacks made of a large basket with shoulder and forehead straps, holding 100 pounds or more. In large groups, women carried packs weighing about 65 pounds, and saddle bags on dogs held up to 25 pounds. A wise trader always included a shrewd elderly woman to act as bargainer and to keep track of exchange values.

From the interior came moose hides, fine moccasins, birch wood bows wrapped with porcupine gut, dressed caribou hides, leather thongs and sinews, snowshoes, and copper ore. Brought from the coast were cedar baskets, fish oil, shells, and smoked seafoods. More exotic items, like copper and special woods, were even traded from Eskimos (Inuit) in Siberia and Alaska, who received dentalia (tusk shell) from Vancouver Island in exchange. Like all activities, trading had religious aspects. Traders had to prepare by fasting, consulting a shaman, and then hosting a feast. Before leaving, he or she applied face paint to look their most attractive.

It's all there. They traded with the Inuit IOTL! There is no way they are not going to be heavily involved with the Thule.

As to why they would pick up agriculture, there are many reasons, but it boils down to the Northwest Coast peoples generally being both pragmatic and competitive. Their biggest issue would probably be having a labor force for it, but I presume they'd just put the women and slaves to work doing it, leaving the honest men to more valuable pursuits like fishing and hunting - initially anyway.

I don't expect any group to develop into a regional empire. However, a little population growth goes a long way. Even if you only assume modest 1% annual population growth beginning in 1400, and a wild-ass guess of 100,000 in the region at that time, you're looking at 5.3 million by 1800.

The region, and agricultural package, might reach a bottleneck before then, but the point is that natives will be much, much thicker on the ground in the Northwest Coast ITTL - so much so that even presuming the local states collapse as plagues decimate the region, the post-colonial demography will be more like Mexico than anything.
 
That's really good. I love that.

So tell me, what are the indigenous plant resources there. What plants were in the Tlingit and Haida diet as harvestables, and did any of them have cultivation possibilities.

I'm putting you in charge of developing the West Coast cultural exchange. At the very least, the Tlingit and Haida will be seeing copper and bronze tools coming in, though volumes are uncertain.
 
http://northernbushcraft.com/plants/index.htm
Edible plants of British Columbia, Oregon, Washington, Montana, Idaho, the Rocky Mountains and Western Canada.

http://northernbushcraft.com/ the main page of the above covers mushrooms, berries, seaweed, and invertebrates too.

At least it's a place to start further research.

Personally I've wondered about cattail agriculture. They have many edible parts, some year round, and grow pretty much anywhere there's water.
 
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http://northernbushcraft.com/plants/index.htm
Edible plants of British Columbia, Oregon, Washington, Montana, Idaho, the Rocky Mountains and Western Canada.

http://northernbushcraft.com/ the main page of the above covers mushrooms, berries, seaweed, and invertebrates too.

At least it's a place to start further research.

Personally I've wondered about cattail agriculture. They have many edible parts, some year round, and grow pretty much anywhere there's water.


Fascinating. Looking at the list from Northernbushcraft, there are several overlaps with Thule cultivars, notably Bistort, Roseroot (different variety than the eastern roseroot which was domesticated and spread), dock, fireweed. Sweetvetch isn't in here, but I suspect it would take. Claytonia, who knows.

I think that one of the key acquisitions of Tlingit and Haida might be domesticated varieties of plants they already know. The domesticated form of bistort is much larger than the form they know. By the same token, domesticated Fireweeds or Sweetvetch might be quite productive.

Thule agriculture is on a three year cycle, largely because the land is relatively unproductive and growing season is so short. But the Tlingit may have the opportunity for moving to a one year cycle, particularly given the greater productivity of soils, much more water, the longer growing season.

You'd have to do a lot more research to suss out the characteristics of the potential plants. But I cold see some significant potential in Sweetflag, Arrowhead, and Cattail.

What I could envision was Thule adjacent Thule farming settlements or mixed communities, and adopting some of the concepts to develop an indigenous agricultural complex. Again, more research on plants would be needed.
 
Hmmm, Arrowhead is particularly interesting.

From Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagittaria_latifolia

Extremely frequent as an emergent plant, broadleaf arrowhead forms dense colonies on very wet soils that become more open as the species mixes with other species of deeper water levels. These colonies forms long bands following the curves of rivers, ponds and lakes, well marked by the dark green color of the leaves. The plant has strong roots and can survive through wide variations of the water level, slow currents and waves. It displays an affinity for high levels of phosphates and hard waters.

Despite the name Duck Potato, ducks rarely consume the tubers, which are usually buried too deep for them to reach, although they often consume the seeds. Beavers, North American Porcupines, and Muskrats, however, eat the whole plant, tubers included.

Easily cultivated in 0.15 m to 0.45 m of water with no or little current. Plant tubers well spaced (no more than 12 plants per square meter) at the end of May at a depth of 5 to 7 cm. Fertilize with decomposed manure. Multiply through seeding or division in July. The tubers of Sagittaria latifolia and Sagittaria cuneata have long been an important food source to indigenous peoples of the Americas. The tubers can be detached from the ground in various ways: with the feet, a pitchfork, or a stick, and usually then float to the surface. Ripe tubers can be collected in the fall and are often found floating freely.

These tubers can be eaten raw or cooked for 15 to 20 minutes. The taste is similar to potatoes and chestnuts, and they can be prepared in the same fashions: roasting, frying, boiling, and so on. They can also be sliced and dried to prepare a flour.

Other edible parts include late summer buds and fruits.

It's noted as being very diverse in appearance, and is very widespread across North America, which implies a great deal of genetic diversity. This in turn might allow for rapid development of a productive domesticated form.

I'd be very interested in comparing this plant with the earliest or original forms of wild potato from Chile and seeing how they rack up.

Very interesting. It's a pseudo-potato, that would be cultivated like rice. It seems to grow in density, seems easy to harvest.

Why wasn't it cultivated? Where is the downside? Possibly too easy to harvest, too common, never a pressing need? Or did harvesting requirements invoke land engineering - the equivalent of rice paddies, and that was too big a step. Or was there simply a shortage of marshland for a founder.

If the Tlingit or Haida adopted the concept of microclimate engineering, and adapted it inventively, they might apply it to creating or irrigating artificial marshlands.
 
Thule agriculture is on a three year cycle, largely because the land is relatively unproductive and growing season is so short. But the Tlingit may have the opportunity for moving to a one year cycle, particularly given the greater productivity of soils, much more water, the longer growing season.

[...]

What I could envision was Thule adjacent Thule farming settlements or mixed communities, and adopting some of the concepts to develop an indigenous agricultural complex. Again, more research on plants would be needed.

High population ecologically pressured migratory 3 year cycle meeting a 1 year cycle "just booting" so lower population agricultural community with a largely identical agricultural complex next door? I'm thinking mass enslavement, or a caste system amounting to the same. And a mass enslavement event means less shamanic governance, and more war-king governance.

That's the potential for a historicisable class crisis right there.

Of course, contact could be more peaceable, but will still have massive economic and social effects.

yours,
Sam R.
 
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