Lands of Ice and Mice: An Alternate History of the Thule

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But that is one of the directions I figure the Arctic Package might eventually proliferate--due up. Insofar as high alpine climate and soil conditions are similar to Arctic ones, eventually parts or even the whole of the Greater Inuit crop set might find homes very far from the Arctic. Leading of course to the inevitable Swisswank!

No, I'm not that serious about Switzerland--it may well be more populous and more economically important late ITTL (not the parts you and DirtyCommie plan to write, but after that, 19th-20th centuries--or are you planning to take it that far?:cool:) But I would be pretty serious about TibetWank! And the Andean altiplano.

Well, Andeans developed their own landforming system of raised mound crop cultivation. Worth taking a look at. Quite different from what's done here.

But I don't think that the Thule package will spread to alpine or mountain country. Basically, its a matter of economics. The Thule package is specialized and productive to its region.

But its not terribly productive in comparison with other packages. I mean, other agricultural packages produce a crop a year. The Thule package is on a three year cycle. You need three times the land to produce an equivalent crop.

So if you have an alpine economy linked to a temperate lowland one, the temperate lowland producing annual crops, or alternatively, equivalent crops on 1/3 the land of the alpine, well, economics favour the lowlands.
 
The Thule package is on a three year cycle. You need three times the land to produce an equivalent crop.
True, but once the package is established won't you get labor savings compared to annual packages?

If there's any land the Thule package can use but local crops can't no reason to at least not try the Thule stuff and hope the land becomes somewhat useful.
 
True, but once the package is established won't you get labor savings compared to annual packages?

If there's any land the Thule package can use but local crops can't no reason to at least not try the Thule stuff and hope the land becomes somewhat useful.

But not until it becomes economically viable to transport the seed crops and provide the training to do so.

To put it one way, turnip farmers don't become banana farmers overnight ;)
 
In regards to seals/walrus...

One issue as I understood it in the artic was the lack of material for hunting weapons...hence harpoons that come in pieces as it's easier to find two short pieces of wood than one long one. This may be a limiting factor in hunting some animals as weapons become almost tribal herloims...I'm thinking scottish claymores and early native guns where possession was a mark of respect and trust.

As you increase the population of the people there will quickly become a point of higher clashes due to competition for key resources unless some cultural rules are established. If you're ice fishing today common respect means you don't drill your hole right beside the only other person on the lake..you give them some room which might lead to a "farming" population and a "sealing" population group trading back and forth.

Other options are cultural things like initiation rites...go forth young man and prove you can catch the seal to provide for the family. With the Cree I tend to work with their first moose is a major mark of having grown up in the eyes of the elders. Or maybe a seal becomes a critical part of a bride price when courting but is not hunted as much as OTL due to more common alternative (and easier to catch plants) around...IIRC off of Eric Flint's alternate history he makes reference to the Creek culture of southern us using deer as a means of proposing.

The only problems as I see are two:
1) Ivory trade...the norse loved walrus ivory and was a key part of their economy until the portugese developed the elephant tusk trade. So this trade source with Europe should be addressed.
2) Seal hide is extremely valuable for clothing due to it's semi-waterproof nature. So boots as I understand are seal hide with moss liners and caribou soles, pants and coats are caribou hide (very warm due to hollow spaces in hairs), and ruffs/triff is wolf/fox since it doesn't ice up like other furs. So this would become an important internal trade item between sealers and non-sealers.

More thoughts..
foresterab
 
In regards to seals/walrus...

One issue as I understood it in the artic was the lack of material for hunting weapons...hence harpoons that come in pieces as it's easier to find two short pieces of wood than one long one. This may be a limiting factor in hunting some animals as weapons become almost tribal herloims...I'm thinking scottish claymores and early native guns where possession was a mark of respect and trust.

As you increase the population of the people there will quickly become a point of higher clashes due to competition for key resources unless some cultural rules are established. If you're ice fishing today common respect means you don't drill your hole right beside the only other person on the lake..you give them some room which might lead to a "farming" population and a "sealing" population group trading back and forth.

Other options are cultural things like initiation rites...go forth young man and prove you can catch the seal to provide for the family. With the Cree I tend to work with their first moose is a major mark of having grown up in the eyes of the elders. Or maybe a seal becomes a critical part of a bride price when courting but is not hunted as much as OTL due to more common alternative (and easier to catch plants) around...IIRC off of Eric Flint's alternate history he makes reference to the Creek culture of southern us using deer as a means of proposing.

The only problems as I see are two:
1) Ivory trade...the norse loved walrus ivory and was a key part of their economy until the portugese developed the elephant tusk trade. So this trade source with Europe should be addressed.
2) Seal hide is extremely valuable for clothing due to it's semi-waterproof nature. So boots as I understand are seal hide with moss liners and caribou soles, pants and coats are caribou hide (very warm due to hollow spaces in hairs), and ruffs/triff is wolf/fox since it doesn't ice up like other furs. So this would become an important internal trade item between sealers and non-sealers.

More thoughts..
foresterab

And this begs the question: How will an Inuit culture with a large population affect extinctions and endangered species down the road?
 
Very interesting TL, I really like the details on the alternate crop package and such, it makes you learn a lot of things :).
 
And this begs the question: How will an Inuit culture with a large population affect extinctions and endangered species down the road?

Life is not going to be good for polar bears, I think.

Wolves will also be unhappy.

With seals, that's going to be interesting. Seal populations are huge, in the hundreds of thousands, or even millions. And they're hard to get to. It's possible that seals may be able to maintain sufficient reproduction to keep up with the cull.

The more I think about it, the more I see Walrus as the more vulnerable species. They were in OTL. But there's also opportunities to manage the population.

And yes, I think that the Norse interest or desire for Walrus Ivory is definitley going to play a huge role in the interactions of Norse and Thule.

The Thule are very efficient harvesters. They basically have a use for the whole seal, meat, pelts, oil, fur, even bones. European harvesters, not so much, so the Thule will probably have a different set of economics going on with seal and walrus.

Keep watching this spot.
 
On further reflection, a more extensive reply is warranted. As I understand it, the Yupik language spoken by so called 'Siberian Eskimo' who are around the Bering peninsula, is related to both the North American Alaskan 'Aleut' languages, and the more broadly extensive Inuit languages which range from Alaska to Greenland and Labrador.

It appears that Yupik diverged from the Aleut languages approximately 3000 years ago, and diverged from Inuit roughly 1000 year ago. [...]

But despite this, the Siberian Thule are still a long way from China. Overland, they'd have to get through the Mongols, and north of the Mongols, other Siberian peoples. So there wouldn't be direct overland contact. There might be some occasional sea contact with Japan or Korea or Manchuria, which would amount to indirect contact with China. And there might even be something of a trading network establishing in the later era of the Thule civilization, say after 1500. But for the most part, the Thule would have the same sort of hazy notion of China that they have of Europe. Enough contact through peripheries to be aware that there are a lot of strange people in a strange land far away and hard to reach.

I'm not sure I envision a lot of cultural transfer from China/Manchuria/Korea/Japan, in part because I don't see these cultures having the same sort of 'in your face' interface that the Thule end up having with the Norse in Greenland. Even with Greenland, the cultural transfer, while significant, is far from comprehensive.

I missed out on following this thread and am only now catching up (still not current); but thought I'd post now to a) cheer wildly while grinning contentedly, b) nitpick, and c) remind DValdron of the poor lonely Tsalal languishing away in the opposite hemisphere, bereft & bereaved without his attention.

The relationship between the various Eskimo-Aleutian languages I agree with, though I would add that some linguists suggest that one of the Siberian Eskimo languages is actually not Yupik, but a third branch of the Eskimoan family. Not that it really matters for our purposes here. The Yupik and Inuit language families are vastly more closely related to one another than to the Aleut languages/dialects, which are clearly the highest-level branching point in the Eskimo-Aleutian phylum.

What I would want to point out more strongly is that the dating DValdron has been using is extremely questionable. Glottochronology has undergone some excellent refinements in just the last few years, but it is still tiptoeing on the line of pseudoscience. For purposes of alt-history, I would encourage anyone to feel free to stretch dates generated in that way, in whatever direction they like; and to not use such dates as the basis of specific (pre-)historical speculation. To me, that's ASB.

Likewise for for any kind of Thule-Sinosphere contact... man, that is SO ASB from my point of view. It would be vastly more plausible for Thule culture to have contact with the Aztecs (or the Mesoamerican civilization of your choice and era). Besides being huge, East Siberia is a frelling rough neighborhood, beside which Arctic North America looks like Cuddlyville. Not to mention it being full, during the period in question, of rough customers looking to expand their range, too.

OK, back to reading the rest of this thread to see how unnecessary or irrelevant this post was... but srsly, really enjoying this TL!

PS: Rather than iron tools (and other kickshaws) from China through Siberia, I could much easier see goods/ideas from Japan, mediated by Ainu trade circuits in the Kuriles and the Itelmen in Kamchatka -- which is all per OTL. Or, ironworking and Old World domesticates from the Sakha (Yakut) along the Lena and Indigirka watersheds, if the date is late enough (say, post-1400 CE, to pull a date out of my sleep-deprived and slightly drunk head). In any case, I am sorry to see the Chukchi, Koryak, Kerek et. al. get swamped by the Thule... they were pretty cool, and I find myself wishing they had been picked to receive this POD instead of the Thulians ;)
 
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I missed out on following this thread and am only now catching up (still not current); but thought I'd post now to a) cheer wildly while grinning contentedly

Thenk yew, thenk yew viry much, nexx zhow's at 8, bring the kids. :)

b) nitpick,

Always welcome. It's always a pleasure to learn things.

and c) remind DValdron of the poor lonely Tsalal languishing away in the opposite hemisphere, bereft & bereaved without his attention.

2012 will be a good year for the Tsalal. After all, England's not going to sink itself. ;)

The relationship between the various Eskimo-Aleutian languages I agree with, though I would add that some linguists suggest that one of the Siberian Eskimo languages is actually not Yupik, but a third branch of the Eskimoan family.

Not intelligible to the other Siberian cultures, yep. I see the point. On the other hand, its pretty much extinct OTL. What it does suggest to me is that there might have been at least two successful outmigrations from Alaska at different times.

Of course, that's assuming we go with my assumption that the Siberian Eskimo outmigrated from Alaska.

Not that it really matters for our purposes here. The Yupik and Inuit language families are vastly more closely related to one another than to the Aleut languages/dialects, which are clearly the highest-level branching point in the Eskimo-Aleutian phylum.

Yeppers.

What I would want to point out more strongly is that the dating DValdron has been using is extremely questionable. Glottochronology has undergone some excellent refinements in just the last few years, but it is still tiptoeing on the line of pseudoscience. For purposes of alt-history, I would encourage anyone to feel free to stretch dates generated in that way, in whatever direction they like; and to not use such dates as the basis of specific (pre-)historical speculation. To me, that's ASB.

Point well made. My own thinking on the subject is that I'm inclined to suspect the apparent East and West migrations out of Alaska are essentially contemporaneous. It's all guesswork of course. But I can't really envision a mechanism which would result in the Thule emerging out of Alaska at two different times, to colonize Siberia on one hand, and the rest of the North American Arctic on the other.

It's possible that there were of course. Some sort of cultural civil war with the losers in the west being pushed right back to Siberia. Or perhaps a regional famine or epidemic.

Or if we wanted to be radical and go with climactic issues - lets say that the cold snap prior to the medieval warm smell enabled easier ice crossings to Siberia and left the Dorset culture in north america more resilient and able to resist Thule pressure. At least one theory holds that the Dorset culture was undermined by the environmental changes of the medieval warm period. So it sort of makes sense. This would put the Thule/Yupik break around 1500 years ago, circa 600 CE and substantially before the overwhelming of the Dorset, circa 1100 - 1300 CE and the Thule explosion. This might explain the significant cultural and linguistic divergence.

No way to know really. The history of population movements, and the underlying reasons for same are not very well understood, given in part the vast landscape, its changes and the difficulty or archeology up there.

On the other hand, it doesn't really seem to affect things, in terms of what the Thule get up to.

Likewise for for any kind of Thule-Sinosphere contact... man, that is SO ASB from my point of view. It would be vastly more plausible for Thule culture to have contact with the Aztecs (or the Mesoamerican civilization of your choice and era). Besides being huge, East Siberia is a frelling rough neighborhood, beside which Arctic North America looks like Cuddlyville. Not to mention it being full, during the period in question, of rough customers looking to expand their range, too.

I'm not sure why the notion seems to light people up. But for some reason, people seem to like it. Go figure.


PS: Rather than iron tools (and other kickshaws) from China through Siberia, I could much easier see goods/ideas from Japan, mediated by Ainu trade circuits in the Kuriles and the Itelmen in Kamchatka -- which is all per OTL. Or, ironworking and Old World domesticates from the Sakha (Yakut) along the Lena and Indigirka watersheds, if the date is late enough (say, post-1400 CE, to pull a date out of my sleep-deprived and slightly drunk head).

I have not too much problem with this. Post 1400 is a major period of cultural flux, due to adoption of some ideas from the Greenland norse. I could see some Asian influence.

In any case, I am sorry to see the Chukchi, Koryak, Kerek et. al. get swamped by the Thule... they were pretty cool, and I find myself wishing they had been picked to receive this POD instead of the Thulians ;)

Yeah, you have a point there. Blame me for my North-Am centric point of view. In researching this, I've run across the Chukchi many times, and they seemed to have their act together.

I suppose I should be honest enough to fess up that I'm incorporating a lot of my own ideas about the development of civilizations and cultures.

Among these, of course, is the notion that plant domestication takes place at the margins of the plant's habitat, and through the accumulation of pre-agricultural practices. In the heartland of plant habitat, there's just no need for any management practices, and they produce no real measurable return. Its where plants are on the borderlines of their ability to thrive and prosper, and even occasional human intervention pays big dividends that you'll see pre-agricultural practices emerging. But that's another issue.

One of my key notions is that cultures in a state of flux are much more susceptible to rapid transformation. Stable cultures tend to preserve stability and resist dramatic change, ideas aren't welcome, tried and true rules, etc. Change is incorporated only gradually, and within the matrix of conservative stability. Cultures in flux may transform rapidly.

Its ultimate reduction is almost a tautology - cultures undergoing rapid change are susceptible to rapid change. But I do think that there's something to it.
 
I started reading, and didnt stop until the last page....and that is a freaking christmas miracle:eek:

I need to know where this is going.:eek::eek::eek::eek:

subscribed
 
The Unsocial Gift - Thief Under the Soil

Wooly Fernweed, aka Wooly Lousewort (Pedicularis Lanata) Not all attempts to incorporate edible plants into the Thule Agricultural complex were successful, or entirely successful. A useful arctic domesticate must not only be edible, productively edible, must grow in density, be tolerant of its own kind, endure short growing seasons, poor soil and occasional aridity, reproduce rapidly, and it has to respond well to human efforts, but it can’t be too labour intensive. The arctic and subarctic were, for the most part, not hotbeds of biodiversity, it was a harsh landscape and difficult to survive and thrive in. There were relatively few arctic plants that were edible to humans, and many of those had shortcomings.

Even the successful domesticates were pretty thin gruel by non-arctic standards. A plant that produced a harvestable edible root once every three years was a non-starter in pretty much any other agricultural complex, and it had taken a combination of three such species to establish the foundation of Thule agriculture. The limits of edible species were such that the Thule actively attempted to work with just about every potential edible, sometimes with mixed results.

A particular case, was Wooly Fernweed or Lousewort (Pedicularis lanata). It’s a short perrenial flowering plant, about six inches high, with a brilliant cap of flowres. The flowers are among the earliest to bloom in spring time, before the snow even vanishes. It’s activity span is very fast, by mid-July, it has gone to seed. This might be an adaptation to the fact that its seed success seems relatively low. It’s known as the ‘wooly’ lousewort because of the hairlike or wooly extrusion around the flowers.

It tolerates stony soil and grows well in both wet and dry lands, although not generally considered a pioneer species, it has an extremely wide tolerance, and its range extends throughout the Canadian north and Arctic Siberia, as far north as both the Canadian and Russian arctic artchipelagos.

It produces an edible root which can be boiled, roasted or eaten raw. The taste is not unlike young carrots. The young flowering stem is also edible raw or as a potherb. Eskimo children like to suck the nectar from the base of the flower’s long corolla tube. Leaves could be used to make a tea. Medicinally, extracts of the plant appeared to be an effective sedative and muscle relaxant, and the plant had mild astringent and antiseptic properties. Other varieties of Fernweed - Arctic Fernweed, and Hairy Fernweed, occupying the same range, were similarly edible and useful though not quite to the same extent. The plant could be pulled up easily, and didn’t have to be dug. Its extremely early growth and flowering allowed for early spring harvest, particularly when other vegetation was not yet ready, although the root was best when allowed to mature.

In many respects, Wooly Fernweed appears to be a strong candidate for domestication. We have a plant that is tolerant to a wide range of soil and water conditions, produces an edible root whose taste is not too different from Sweetvetch, with edible stems, leaves and even flowers, medicinal applications. It seemed a likely candidate, particularly to a culture which was mastering the intricacies of root crops.

However, Wooly Fernweed was from a genera known as ‘hemi-parasites.’ These are plants who have chlorophyl and produce sugars but who do not have fully developed root systems. Instead, they parasitize the root systems of host plants. Wooly Lousewort can survive on its own, but it requires hosts to attain size.

The result was that efforts to cultivate Wooly Fernweed on its own tended to be unsuccessful. Unlike most arctic plants which tend to spread vegetatively and thus cluster in clumps and matts, this plant was not fond of the company of its own kind. This might explain the relatively low seed success, the last thing a hemi-parasite needs in the neighborhood is competition from its own vampiric offspring. Survival and propagation are often at cross purposes.

Growing Wooly Fernweed in company of other domesticates worked better, and the plants thrived.... Thule agriculture often had mixed or overlapping crops, most notably Sweetvetch and Fireweed. But Wooly Fernweed throve by parasitizing the other domesticates. It soon became apparent that crops without Wooly Fernweed mixed with them did far better than those which did.

The only effective strategy for Wooly Fernweed was as a low density domesticate in areas where most flora had little or no edible value for humans and could be parasitized without substantial costs.

Wooly Fernweed appears to have emerged as a domesticated cultivar in the Mackenzie basin agricultural complex, which had by far the richest soils and water supply of the three originating complexes. The relative wealth of its soil and water tended to mask Wooly Fernweed’s parasitic effects, the other key root crops, including Bistort, grew extremely well.

However, as the McKenzie basin complex spread, and its techniques and practices expanded to more marginal areas, the limitations or drawbacks of Wooly Fernweed became more and more obvious. Although it remained in the McKenzie basin agricultural heartlands, it tended to get dropped out of the basket in other areas.

In archeological terms, this lead the significance of the McKenzie Basin complex's spread being significantly underestimated. The tendency was to track the influence of each complex by the spread of its secondary cultivars. The McKenzie Basin was arguably the richest and most influential, but its Fernweed spread poorly, although mound and trench styles moved much further. In contrast, the Fireweed of Baffin Island spread far more rapidly than other parts of its complex.

Its lore, however, was well understood and widely distributed among Shamans who valued an encyclopedic knowledge of potentially useful plants, and who were essential to Thule Agriculture. Shamans negotiated continually with the spirits, identifying planting areas for particular crops, directing measures for weeding, landscaping, fertilization, stone cover etc.. Shamans over great distances continually exchanged lore, traded seeds and root cuts, debated the merits and applications of plants and practices, and often innovated agricultural prospects.

Interestingly, Wooly Fernweed did have some success in low-yield and harsh areas, particularly the poorer regions of the Arctic Archilago, in regions where none of the other Thule crops could prosper. There the plants parasitic strategy allowed it to create a small edible base in landscapes where there had been little or nothing for humans. This wasn’t enough, however, to amount to agriculture or even horticulture, but amounted to a moderate bonus for hunter-gatherers, or to marginal agricultural regions where the cultivateable landscape was limited.

Wooly Fernweed remained an extremely marginal cultivar on the peripheries of the Thule Agricultural package until the beginning of the Second Agricultural period and widespread domestication of Caribou and Musk Ox.

This period saw the emergence of distinct Caribou and Musk Ox herding subcultures, often on marginal lands, and the beginnings of systematic landscape manipulation to increase Caribou and Musk Ox fodder. Wooly Fernweed saw introduction by Shamanic wise men in many of these lands, through an adapted version of pre-agricultural practices relating to Sweetvetch proliferation, particularly collecting and trading seeds, spreading them any place that seemed likely, and intermittently destroying less productive relatives.

The result was the incorporation into herding culture of casual planting and harvesting by herding families as they moved through their ranges.
 
The Sweet Taste

Crowberries and Lingonberries (empetrum nigrum & vaccinium vitis-idaea) There are nearly fifty types of berry growing in Alaska, most of which are edible. While other regions of the Arctic and Sub-Arctic do not contain nearly the same proliferation of species and varieties berries are literally the sole edible fruit which persist through the northern ranges. Crowberries, Lingonberries, Blueberries, Cranberries, Blackberries, Bearberries, Raspberries, Red Currants and Cloudberries are some of the predominant species.

It is no surprise that berries were a significant part of the plant diet of all northern peoples, including the Thule, and a critical part of hunter-gatherer lifestyles. Berries did not exist in sufficient profusion to make a substantial difference in diets, but they were often used to for flavouring. Berries were eaten when picked, but could be stored frozen, and were often eaten with seal blubber, oil, tallow, mixed with leaves or stems of other plants, or used to flavour pemican or dried meats.

All arctic berries were low growing, flowering perrenials. Most are shrubs, although some behave like ground hugging vines.

For the early Thule in their hunter/gatherer phase Crowberries were by far the most important. Crowberry is a small genus of dwarf evergreen shrub which grows up to ten inches tall and spreads like a carpet or mat, periodically sending down roots. Wild populations are a mixture of seed and plants growing from creeping stems. It is tolerant to poor conditions growing on tundra and sand dunes. Crowberries basically can deal with anything but wet and waterlogged soils.

The berry is a fairly dry black berry, resembling a blueberry, and contains large hard seeds. It provides a steady crop and is gathered easily and stores well. It is usually picked in the fall, however, come winter, crowberries and other berries would freeze on the shrubs. During spring, frozen berries would become visible and could be harvested then. A special bowl with holes in it to drain the snow out was used as a filter for berry gathering. Fall harvests, once picked, could be stored over winter, a hole would be made in the sand and some fat poured in. When the fat hardened the berries were put in, and the hole covered with seal skin. After the hole was covered it was further buried for a winter supply. In Alaska, large numbers of crowberries were picked in late summer and stored in seal oil for use in fall and winter. Gwich'in elders reported these berries make good jam and were tasty when eaten alone or when mixed with other berries. They were also used to make a sweet desert or paste by mixing with powdered dried fish.

A tea was made by collecting and boiling the roots, berries and stems of this plant and that some Gwich'in people considered it as good as spruce gum tea for stomach aches and bad colds. In many places, the buries were considered a constipatory and remedy for diarhea. Crowberry branches were harvested to make a soft summer mattress.

In contrast, except for cloudberries, many other berries were ignored or given short shrift. Bilberries for instance, were common, but avoided by the Thule as it was believed to cause tooth decay. Lingonberries and Bearberries were generally overlooked

Unfortunately, as the Thule population expanded, this put substantial harvesting pressure on Crowberries. In the hunter-gatherer phase, this population pressure was manageable, but towards the later stages, particularly as the medieval warm period ended, and plant and animal populations began to decline, demand consistently outstripped supply.
The use of branches for ground cover and the use of roots and stems for tea and medicine actually impacted the plant, narrowing its distribution. Crowberry found it extremely difficult to propagate successfully under human pressure.

The Thule turned to other under-harvested or ignored berries to meet the demands, with variable success. Again, while berry harvesting was essentially passive and did the plants little harm, disturbance of stems and branches by large numbers of harvesters, wear and tear, uprooting or use of leaves, stems, roots and branches for medicinal or practical purposes, all tended to impact heavily on berry species.

Unfortunately, the berry species demonstrated the limitations of Thule agricultural practice. Seeds of Crowberry had a low success rate. The plant did not reproduce vegetatively, so cutting and transplanting roots generally ended in failure. Seed and root plantings even created mold issues. To propagate the plant you required a high degree of subtlty and skill, most of which was absent on a trial by error system. Even worse, wind pollination was essential to the plant, protect it with a windbreak and berry production dropped substantially, as did reproduction and proliferation. Crowberries, all things considered, were finicky delicate plants to persuade to grow.

This didn’t stop the Thule. Experiencing an agricultural revolution, they applied the techniques developed to all sorts of plants. Crowberries, because of their value, were the subject of strenuous cultivation efforts. Most of these didn’t work, or actively hindered the plants. Continual cuttings and efforts to root propagate would stress original patches. Windbreaks would wipe out berry harvests. There was little in the Thule repertoire of agricultural techniques that worked on Crowberry.

As Crowberry declined in real terms, harvesting and cultivation efforts turned to other berries. In particular, Lingonberries (also known as lowbush cranberry, cowberry, foxberry etc.), traditionally overlooked, proved to have potential.

Unlike Crowberry which spreads in branches across the surface which touch down roots, Lingonberry spreads from rhizomes (thick parts of the root system, below the stem) which grow up to 12 inches below the surface. Evergreen shoots rise from the root system, to produce dense matts which may be eight to twelve inches tall. Less productive than Crowberries, its estimated that a Lingonberry stem had a 30% chance of producing a berry in any given year (although range of production on particular plants varied widely from 0 to 94%). Unlike Crowberries, Lingonberries preferred to pollinate through insects.

Lingonberry itself was difficult to cultivate. Seed survival was extremely low, perhaps lower than Crowberry. Stem cuttings could survive, but might not produce either rhizomes or fruit. Eventually it was found that rhizome cuttings, basically, cuttings or transplants of thick rootstock, in early spring or late summer worked best. The plant also did well with windbreaks and drainage or irrigation. Propagation and promotion of the plant could be achieved through a course of experimentation dictated by trial and error, but it too was an extremely finicky plant, and techniques had to be continually refined. Handling Lingonberry required a high degree of specialized knowledge and skill as to the plants likes and dislikes and an ongoing close attention to its behaviour.

Consequently, it was well into the middle or later periods of the first phase of the Agricultural revolution before the plant could be considered to be reliably domesticated. Even that was extremely early, and accomplished only because domestication attempts were taking place in hundreds of areas across the north, and because the network of shamans continually exchanged and proliferated observations and insights.

The proliferation of trial and error approaches, and the accumulated lore around Lingonberry, eventually provided a key to the propagation of Crowberry, very late in the first phase of the Agricultural revolution. Eventually it was found that leafy stems of crowberry would take root and proliferate, but even then, the learning curve was steep.

The second phase of Thule Agriculture saw other berry forms, most significantly Cranberries (or highbush cranberry), bearberry and eventually bilberry (reluctantly) and cloudberry (with great difficulty), being domesticated. But in each case, it was difficult and achieved only through the application of accumulated lore from previous berry domestications, and a painstaking trial and error process of learning each plant’s peculiarities and needs.

Because Berries were so difficult for the Thule Agricultural complex to master, there came about an ironic situation where the genetic diversities of domesticated berries proliferated, but actual selection was extremely slow to take place.

When trying to plant a new berry pasture of Crowberry or Lingonberry, or even to expand an existing one, cuttings or cultures would be taken from other patches in the region. Despite the fact that cuttings were presumed not to travel well, and thus were taken locally, inevitable result was that patches would become increasingly heterogenous. Cross pollinations and occasional successful seedings within a patch would enhance genetic diversity.

However, the Thule were relatively slow to distinguish individual plants within a harvest patch, and even slower to make selection efforts to promote or spread an individual plant through cuttings, or to discourage or uproot less productive plants. And truthfully, this was difficult. It took a keen observer to notice whether a particular stem was producing berries annually, or whether it was producing more or larger or better berries than usual. Even then, such production could well be a hit or miss accident of pollination or slightly richer soil underneath a particular stem.

Selection pressures were fairly slow, at least for the first couple of hundred years, and consisted mainly of an emerging preference for cuttings from productive patches over less productive ones. Given the accumulated hetero-diversity of patches, the immediate results were often far from certain. The process was often slowed by the relative lack of unclaimed pasture for new patches. Still, over time, higher and lower yielding pastures became apparent, and higher yield cuttings were being used to rehabilitate or replace low yield pastures.

Environmental complications also took their toll. The commencement of the little ice age tended to select for hardier plants regardless of yield, and lowered productivity and production generally.

Nevertheless, aggressive management and microclimate engineering tended to outweigh the little ice age and production climbed as domestication produced richer and more fecund plants. The ratio of berries to biomass was still well below comparable southern domesticates like grapes, but well beyond the wild forms following 1400-1500 CE.

Berry cultivation remained highly specialized and esoteric through Thule history, and Shamanic intersession and advice was frequently called upon.
Economically, berries tended to be high yield and high labour. There was no getting around it, berries had to be plucked by hand, and plucked rapidly. They were the only Thule cultivar that produced a regular annual crop, and they produced a relatively rich and nutritious crop.

On the other hand, the total volume of berries compared to other crops was relatively small. The biomass ratio was also small. Unlike say Sweetvetch or root crops, where 30% to 35% of the aggregate biomass of the plant was edible, or the leaf and stem crops where 15 to 25% might be edible, berries edible ratio, even allowing for an annual crop, and allowing for refined domesticated varieties, was 1 to 4%. What this meant was that roughly 96% of a berry patch’s biological mass was invested in inedible roots, in stems, leafs, flowers etc., and perhaps 4%, cumulatively, amounted to edible production.

Of course, this may be typical of most fruits, ranging from grapes to apples. And it is similarly true for most grains. But most berries had a much higher water content, and therefore less delivery of nutrition than grains or even many other fruit.

Nevertheless, for Thule culture, berries represented a key component. Still, arable land was not unlimited, and there were often territorial conflicts between berry farmers and other crop farmers or herders.

One late 2nd Phase development that arose from the organized cultivation, production and storage of berry crops, was fermentation and the development of berry wines in Thule culture. These were generally low alcohol sweet wines, which were confined to the elite or to ceremonial use.

This had a collateral effect, when wine fermenting techniques were systematized and applied to roots. Bistort and Roseroot in particular produced passable though bitter 'potato wines' or 'beers.' Volumes produced, however, tended to be relatively small.
 
And that's it for the First Phase Agricultural complex which emerges over a couple of centuries at most. More work than I planned on. Next time I have to do something like this, I'm just going to say 'they grew a lot of shit and then they ate it.'

But as I've said, the raw counterintuitiveness of an Arctic agricultural package demanded a certain amount of hard detail, and investigation as to the genuine plants and their characteristics, and how such a package might evolve from both accumulated pre-agricultural practices and coalesced cultural innovations.

The second phase agricultural complex isn't going to be as much work. The basic shape and dominant constituencies of Thule Agriculture are developed. What happens is that the package continues to expand geographically, spreading to other Thule communities. The little ice age begins to hit, and this leads to the Thule pushing heavily south, mostly to Dene country. There will be a handful of new domesticates or cultivars which emerge, mostly leaf/stem plants or berries, but they don't amount to a radical change.

But hey, while I've got this soapbox, there are a few points I want to draw out and hammer, because they're critical to the evolution and productivity of the Thule package.

First, I want to shout out to the role of Shamans in Thule Agriculture. I've alluded to this from time to time in greater or lesser detail. But fundamentally, Thule Agriculture is spiritual/mystical in nature and outlook.

Looking back, I think that this might actually be the case for a lot of early agriculture, and its been so long that mostly we've forgotten about it. But if you poke around, you'll find in backwoods old traditions of corn kings, or ceremonial enactments of agricultural cycles, as well as specialty gods devoted to agricultural practices. I suspect that a lot of formative or founding agricultural practices were intensely mystical originally, and that as it becomes widespread and commonplace, this slowly gets lost. Eventually the gods and spirits move on up, get upscale, and start to hang around with and cater to the upper classes, and mostly the crops all just grow as fine without them anyway.

But Thule Agriculture is so young that it's still retained its mystical trappings. If it actually existed, the Thule package would literally be the youngest agricultural package to come into existence and the only one to emerge within shouting distance of historical records. Anthropologists and archeologists would literally be creaming over it, and probably are in the modern era of that timeline.

In writing about this stuff, I'm often writing in very practical and secular terms. But we shouldn't forget that the foundation of this stuff is intensly mystical.

All of the pre-agricultural practices were about catering to or jollying up unpredictable or capricious earth spirits. Things were developed that worked, but these workings were always understood as the product of negotiations with the supernatural.

The supernatural required the intercession of Shamans who could tell you what worked and what didn't, what to plant and where, how to construct mounds, which fields, etc. Again, this is all framed in terms of the supernatural and in terms of mysticism, but the effects were practical. Shamans became an esoteric class whose job was to know these things, and whose observations and understanding transcended a particular farmer's cultivated fields. These were people who were literally seeing the big pictures, whose job was to observe, to know and to transmit that knowledge. Invariably Shaman's taught other Shaman's, at first their own proteges, but also each other, and so information disseminated over a wide distance.

Of course, this is information wrapped in spiritual and mystical terms, and a lot of it is flat out wrong or deluded, but within this framework, there's a very large store of what works, what works really well, and what doesn't work, and there's an ongoing clearinghouse of information in terms of what was or is done by trial and error and how those work out.

As Thule culture increases in complexity, and despite the 'banalification' of commonplace agriculture, the caste of Shamans, particularly the 'plant specialist' Shamans maintains, and you've got a culture that essentially has a 'college of agronomists' working in it. The mystical mumbo jumbo ensures that they keep their job, but they also tend to earn their keep.

The other thing I wanted to touch on, which I've skipped over from time to time, is the effect of plant domestication. Basically, anyone who has ever spent any time comparing wild versions of plants with their domesticated cousins will be struck by often vast differences. Whether it be carrots or onions, potatoes, corn or apples and oranges, almost invariably, the domesticated version tends to be a lot larger, tastier, more nutritious, faster growing. It may appear in steady annual production, rather than occasionally or unpredictably over a few years. Where it appears in clusters, you'll usually see a lot more fruit or berries or grapes per plant, etc. There are relatively few domesticated plants which don't have significant differences from their wild cousins.

This is basically human selection. We want bigger and tastier carrots. We want bigger potatos, more productive wheat, more and bigger grapes to a bunch, more bunches to a vine, and vines that produce regularly. And basically, we tend to select for specimens that do that, and those specimens tend to reproduce, and we tend not to encourage the ones that aren't as bountiful.

This doesn't require a degree in genetics or any kind of sophisticated cultural practice. Generally, for most plant domesticates, the normal casual evolved practices of farmers - the practices used to propagate plants year after year, do the trick. Or at least, its done the trick for the ones that it worked on.

It's possible that we've lost out on potential domesticates or at least potential improvements because our practices didn't match the reproductive strategies of certain kinds of plant. Instead of advancing a plant to the stage of a really productive domesticate, the mismatch has ended up throwing away potential improvement or even worsening the breed, leaving the domesticate marginal, or even abandoned or never taken up.

But in terms of this timeline, one thing I've tried to emphasize is the significance of genetic diversity, and the potential of agricultural or pre-agricultural techniques to amount to effective selection.

That's the other side of things - genetic diversity. More genetic diversity means more variation in plants. More variation means more expression of different traits - all sorts of traits, faster growers, slower growers, more leafs, fewer leafs, bigger flowers, smaller flowers, bigger roots, smaller roots, cold tolerance, drought tolerance, soil tolerance, etc. etc.

For wild plants, they're basically trading off - their selective pressures are coming from all directions, without special priorities, and they tend to develop as generalists.

Humans apply selective pressures in certain directions. Bigger, better, faster, etc.

Sometimes they reduce other selective pressures. There's less need to be drought tolerant if you've got irrigation topping things up. Less selective pressure to endure short cold growing seasons if you've tweaked microclimates to be generally warmer, less windy and a little bit longer in the growing season. Agriculture often reduces certain selective pressures. Reducing other selective pressures frees up additional biological oomph to go in other directions, directions you'd like.

Sometimes it gets crazy places - you get domesticated plants that require huge investments of labour, agriculture or fertilizer to maintain, or that require humans to even propagate.

Getting back to this timeline, one of the key things that we have to appreciate is that the OTL plants described are mostly wild starting points. Domestication will change most of these plants over time, producing varieties that are on the whole more productive and richer in human terms than exist now.

So what's the timeframe for plant domestication? That's difficult to say, mostly because most of the known domesticates have been domesticated for a very long time, thousands of years. This doesn't necessarily mean that domestication takes thousands of years. Rather, I'd argue that while fine refinement can take a while, the bulk of domestication probably takes place very quickly.

That's because plants grow very fast, and they produce a lot of seeds. What that means is that in growing fast, there's lots of generations, lots of opportunities for traits to express themselves, and with lots of seeds per plant, there's lots of opportunities to spread desirable traits rapidly.

So let's take Sweetvetch as our baseline. The Arctic territories of the Thule are roughly the size of western europe. That's a lot of landscape. Sweetvetch doesn't grow everywhere, but it grows throughout that range, so that's a lot of plants. Let's say a population of a million plants, occupying their historical range. That's a lot of individual locations, a lot of local lineages, a lot of genetic diversity, and a lot of potential expressed and unexpressed traits.

Pre-Agricultural, and Agricultural techniques magnify that diversity. Sweetvetch lines from different areas are brought into proximity to each other by the practice of trading root cuttings and seeds from one community to another or one shaman to another. This encourages more expression of traits, more extreme expressions, previously unexpressed traits start to express. There's more options to choose among.

Particularly productive plants, bigger roots, faster growers, will tend to be valued more than others. They have 'more magic', the 'spirits favour them more.' They're more valued, more sought, more widely traded and distributed. They grow more.

Sweetvetch has for practical purposes a three year cycle. So roughly thirty generations a century. In three centuries, you get a hundred generations. That's a lot of individual plants, a lot of expressed traits, and within that time, a lot of selection going on, particularly if distribution is pushed by Shamans.

With three centuries of intensive agricultural selection, and couple of more centuries of pre-agricultural selection before that, I think we'll see a significantly distinct 'domesticated version' of Sweetvetch. More likely, I think we'll see a bunch of local domesticated varieties, in just the way we have varieties of rice or varieties of potatos. Tough hardy cold resistant/short season tolerant domesticates for places like Ellesmere Island. Water tolerant, rich soil, fast growing (two year cycle?) fat rich varieties in places like the McKenzie basin. Dry country varieties, etc.

I'm going to ballpark and suggest 85% of Sweetvetch's domesticable biological potential is achieved well inside this three century time frame (the last 15% might be the tough part), with a domesticated variety that averages 50% to twice as productive as the wild variesties. Maybe much better, who knows.

Bistort, because its historically widespread through the territories has similar potential, and likely a similar trajectory. It goes from a peanut sized edible root, to something onion or small potato sized.

Roseroot and Tuberosa had much smaller distribution ranges historically, and it is subsets of their populations that get distributed across the larger Thule landscape. That's a recipe for dramatically less genetic diversity and less pronounced expression of traits than Sweetvetch and Bistort have.

Within say, a three hundred year time frame (with another two hundred years or less pre-agricultural selections), you will get a significantly different, more productive domesticate. But the difference won't be as huge as Sweetvetch and Bistort. I think you would see the available potential of the population being mostly exploited within that three hundred year span. But over the next centuries, there'd be potential for further leaps from 'super-varieties' developing in the genetic heartlands of these plants, and spreading outwards. By 1700 things might look fairly interesting.

Fireweed, Fernweed and Marsh Ragwort are all widely distributed species with subtantial genetic reservoirs - so lots of potential expression. But their original cultivations were all local, so that limits the initial genetic pool. And their reproductive strategies - particularly Fireweed and Ragwort, who are windblown, leaves a high potential for rebreeding with and back to wild stock. Of course, this allows for more incorporation of potential diversity and traits back into domesticates, so there's opportunity there. With three hundred years, I'd suggest recognizably distinct domesticated varieties will emerge, more productive and more amenable to agriculture than the wild worms. But I'd be hesitant to say how much more productive it would be. By 1700, they would probably be significantly better than their 1400 or 1500 counterparts, but again, I wouldn't want to guess how much.

Berry stocks I'd expect to be the slow learners of the bunch, but again, by 1700, I'd expect clearly domesticated stocks to have emerged, producing regular annual crops and producing much larger more numerous berries per stem. We didn't really see this sort of berry domestication in the south for two reasons - first, berry plants are finicky as hell. Second, southern cultures likely had far more options for fruit cultivation, including easier and much more productive options.

Two other small points. First, getting back to the Shamanic network, I would assume that there's a greater degree of intentionality and deliberateness to at least some of the human selection process, because the Shamans are fairly aware and fairly involved in both selection and making sure positive (ie - spirits approved) plant varieties are distributed much more widely. So there may be greater than average impetus.

The other thing to remember is that the larger part of Thule culture is actually engineering. Microclimate engineering. This is cumulative year after year after year. Over time, with increasing population, and increasing technical knowledge and skill, I would assume that the scale of accumulating works would be bigger, more ambitious, more sophisticated and comprehensive.

There would be negatives, climactic fluctuations, the little ice age, wars, possible plant epidemics and diseases. But I would argue that the productivity of the Thule landscape and Thule agricultural complex and crops would continue to increase steadily at least until 1700.

Anyway, that's it for now. My next round of posts on this will probably be on Pycrete, and the Animal Domestications (and some really interesting stuff there). I'm going to leave the place to DirtyCommie for a while, and maybe catch up on Axis of Andes and Green Antarctica, or even the Moontrap Timeline.
 
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...My next round of posts on this will probably be on Pycrete...

Now that you mention that...

...Fall harvests, once picked, could be stored over winter, a hole would be made in the sand and some fat poured in. When the fat hardened the berries were put in, and the hole covered with seal skin. After the hole was covered it was further buried for a winter supply.

When I read this, I thought, "aha! this kind of messing around with liquids being left to freeze for structural purposes could lead straight to Pycrete!"


I'm going to leave the place to DirtyCommie for a while, and maybe catch up on Axis of Andes and Green Antarctica, or even the Moontrap Timeline.

All of which, along with this very timeline, are now Turtledove nominees.:D

And no, not all of them were submitted by me.:p
 
I've noticed. Thank you.

For those tuning in late, 'Pycrete' was a peculiar late 40's innovation. Basically, British and Canadian scientists discovered that if you mixed enough sawdust in with ice, the resulting mixture was as strong as concrete, resistant and reslient to fracture, retained cold and melted much more slowly than regular ice. Of course, it would eventually melt, but it seemed intriguing and there was some interest in it. At one point there were even proposals to use pycrete to make icebergs into aircraft carriers. There were a lot of crazy things proposed in WWII. Ultimately, no one could find an actual use for it, and the technology was mostly abandoned as going nowhere.

It was an inquiry and discussion of Pycrete on another thread that lead to this thread, if anyone wants to take the time to look it up.

Although it didn't have an actual application in OTL, an insulated, strong, easily constructed building material might be just the ticket for certain requirements of the Thule.

My thinking is that a Thule culture which is sedentary and which is making extensive use of harvested vegetable material, is probably going to have a lot of vegetable garbage lying around their sites - husks, leaves, stems, twigs etc. Over time, people will notice that pieces of ice that are saturated with this material tends to thaw more slowly, much more slowly, and it tends to be a lot stronger and more resilient than regular ice.

Didn't really happen in our time for a few reasons. First, the Thule Inuit had almost no vegetable material in their diets. Probably less than 5% by volume, and thus they weren't accumulating any significant amount of vegetable garbage. Second, they were highly mobile/nomadic, so they weren't even really sticking around long enough. And third, even if they noticed the phenomenon, they didn't actually have much use for it - it would just be an observation like how Bananas turn black if you freeze them.

But darnit, I'm giving stuff away again. I'll never get back to Green Antarctica at this rate!
 
On the subject of OTL Pyrkrete, the big--I mean really really big--carrier the proposal centered on was to be called the Habbakkuk. It's a pretty well known risible meme here at AH, if one happens not to know about it yet one now has enough information to search. Or look at recent threads like this.

The line drawing comparing it to the modern Nimitz and a contemporary battleship is probably closest to the actual drafts. The pretty artwork done by AH people and others generally shows some sort of standard modern carrier hull shape writ large, with bare naked translucent blue ice for the visible hull material. Well that looks nice, and bizarre, and demonstrates what, other than size, is odd about this ship. But I'm quite sure if they'd have gone ahead with it that the outer hull would be coated with some kind of corrosion-resistant metal foil, to serve as a thin insulation layer and protect the ice from spray.

And the plan was not simply to rely on the slow melting time of Pyrkrete; it was also to actively refrigerate the ice where it would be exposed to heat to keep it frozen. I guess they'd have embedded tubes for liquid ammonia, recooled by central refrigeration pump units, near the outer part of the hull, and also inside in pads at places like the engine room stations.

I'm wondering now if it might not work better to leave air channels, and use a really industrial strength refrigeration unit to chill the air down to within a few degrees of its condensation temperature, which is serious cryogenics, then pump that very cold air through the channels. It wouldn't absorb heat as efficiently as L-NH3, but it would be easier to mend damaged cold channels and the cold temperature would be at least somewhat lower, making it possible to bury them deeper in the ice and still guarantee the ice face, covered after all with foil, stays frozen even in moderately warm waters.

The line drawing shows lots and lots of little propulsion pods stuck on the sides like the outrigger cars of an airship, which might have made more sense than having a really ginormous central power plant and gargantuan shafts driving really monstrous screws. The pods would be vulnerable to enemy fire of course but the idea was, it would be a carrier deck that could accommodate all the airstrike capacity one could want, so even if the enemy had an entire fleet of battleships they'd never get within striking range. It leaves subs to try and do the job, and all they could do is try to pick the pods off one by one. But one good undetected shot and the ASW resources, in the unlikely case they got caught napping, go into gear and make short work of that U-boat, so it would be in the very worst case for the Allies, assuming their sonar and so on can't find a sub at all until it fires a torpedo, a case of one U-boat, one engine pod.

OK the point is, I think if we were less devoted to pointing and laughing at the thing we'd see it isn't really such a bad idea at all. The idea being in part, with the ship made of stuff lighter than water, it wouldn't sink even if some really big well-placed shot or bomb breached a crack into the inner voids. "Unsinkable" in the sense that you'd have to smash it down to separate ice cubes. Somewhat less firepower might suffice to ruin the flight deck, or pick off the engine pods. But assuming a decent reserve of damage control is being done, the hull can be mended, with stocks of sawdust and the refrigeration gear handy.

I do suppose if the war had gone on another few years the W-Allies would have gone ahead and made some, probably in Canadian shipyards. I daresay one of these could also serve as a fine icebreaker, and so its home port could be in Hudson's Bay and it could sally out to either the Atlantic or Pacific. Well, they could be made there, and then sent to ports in Newfoundland or Alaska, where the surface seawater is nice and cold. But with adequate refrigeration I bet they could serve even in equatorial waters, if the sunlit surfaces are all covered up with shiny foil and backed by modest refrigeration!

I obviously don't think it's as sidesplittingly silly as many others do. Yep, I gather Mythbusters did a demo that failed amusingly. But did they have the exposed faces properly refrigerated?
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In the Thule* context, obviously Pyrkrete is no good for making boats. Temporary rafts maybe. The Thule, along with all other Medieval/Early Modern peoples, had no refrigeration tech and they wouldn't get it until the times when the expanding European capitalist society cluster and any others keeping up with that sort of tech (which might, by that date, probably comparable to OTL in the early to mid-19th century, include the Thule, what with their location chock-a-bloc Europe and along potential trade routes to East Asia, a location giving them a unique fastness to retreat into if the Euros get too aggressive--my Ice Arab concept you see!) manages to develop pumps that work with liquid ammonia and the like.

You can make a boat, or big ship, and it might last days or even weeks, especially in very cold waters. But deteriorate and break up it will. The Thule are smart, they'll see this is no good. They'll have other uses for the stuff.

But come alt-1900 I don't think we should laugh at their arctic Navy. These massive things ought to be able to plow right through sea ice!

That is of course getting ahead of ourselves, by a whole lot. Maybe the Thule won't even last as a sovereign set of societies that long!:eek: I hope they do though, and I'm on the side of those who might think they'll catch up to and keep abreast with Western technology, by 1800 or so, about when that tech starts getting decisively advanced. They may not be in a position to be on the cutting edge of scientific discovery and technical innovation, having a low population widely scattered, probably, if they stay sovereign, split into dozens of small nations. But if they include some technicians more or less up to date on established Western state of the art, they will do specialized innovations that work in the Arctic and maybe aren't so useful elsewhere.

Stuff like ice-based railroads, say, "rail-sledges", with floating ice bridges over lakes and straits that operate through all seasons.

There's certainly oil on the north slope of Alaska; I suppose there's coal in lots of places in Arctic North America. Metals to be mined, if not in North America (but surely there are some here) then certainly in the Siberian north.

By this stage too I suppose they'll have allies and trade partners to the south and can trade for quite a lot of stuff.
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*I can be much denser than Pyrkrete sometimes. I coined this term "Arctican" for the various, not just Inuit, peoples living where OTL they were too far north to have any agriculture but here they can. But this thread's title gives us a good word for them--European based to be sure but so is "Arctican"--"Thule." I'll call then all collectively "Thule" or "Thulian" now, unless we establish this term is only good for a certain subset, in which case I'll fall back on "Arctican" for the most general term. Until then, "Arctic" should be a strictly geographical, not demographical, reference.
 
a sweet desert P: dessert
the buries were considered a constipatory P: berries
absent on a trial by error system P: absent in or with

Yep, I gather Mythbusters did a demo that failed amusingly
P: The boat lasted thirty minutes, and we don't know why the failure happened. They were moving at 23mph, with an outboard motor presumable giving off heat, and no refrigeration built in.
 
Yep. Many typos. I'll come back and fix them.

The problem for me with Pykrete flotation is that even if you're relying on natural bouyancy, 5/6ths of it is going to be below the water line. That's going to be some incredible drag. I'm inclined to think that even water friction would strip it down.

Obviously, Pycrete's key application will be sub-zero cold storage silo's dug into the permafrost with domed roofs covered with an insulating layer of gravel/vegetation.
 
Are there place pykrete architecture could last year round, takings long enough to start really melting it refreezes before it does?

Considering how you can sculpt ice/pycrete what's the potential for some truely magnificent architecture?
 
Are there place pykrete architecture could last year round, takings long enough to start really melting it refreezes before it does?

Considering how you can sculpt ice/pycrete what's the potential for some truely magnificent architecture?

Interesting. But it's not like there's a shortage of naked rock in the Arctic.
That's what all those Inukshuk are all about.

It's a hell of an original idea though. Perhaps using pycrete for pre-forms? Build a pycrete structure. Build the stone structure on top of an around it, supported by the Pycrete as you're building. Let it melt over a season or so, sweep away the sawdust, and you've got an impressive stone self supporting structure left behind.
 
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