Land of Flatwater: Protect and Survive Middle America

[Hörnla]

Although I always find it original to see a different conventional phase of the German theatre, I need to remind myself of the fog of war in order to suspend my disbelief for the way the Soviet offensives unfold. Or maybe I misunderstand it all.

Maybe I am a bit too stuck on General Hackett's World War III scenario, which I found quite realistic (with the exception of a stopped nuclear escalation - only a deus ex machina-putsch in the Kremlin can pull this off, see also Red Storm Rising).

What I can hardly understand is that the Soviet offensive towards Hamburg are being stopped rather cold. I can understand it around Fulda where the US Army has been preparing a defensive posture forever, also it is the closest distance from the GDR to the Rhine and losing ground cannot be allowed there. The rugged terrain there is defense-friendly, too.

But Hamburg? If you hit on a gas pedal in Western Mecklenburg once and let it roll, you already are in Hamburg - passing through absolutely tank-friendly terrain. I would have expected the Soviets to go most of the way through Lower Saxony in three days.

How is the situation in Bavaria? There seems to be an (extremely fast) Soviet thrust from Thuringia to Stuttgart which our tank-protagonist "accompagnies". But nobody ever mentions the rest of Bavaria with its mobilized NATO and Bundeswehr troops. If the Soviets coming from the CSSR don't put them through a meatgrinder, even when retreating Westwards they could, rather must, fall that aformentioned thrust on Stuttgart into the flank and into the rear.

Last but not least. Do I understand a defensive posture with their BACKSIDES close to the Rhine is NATO's answer if things go wrong? I would deem that an extremely unfortunate position, strategically, unless your idea is to give your troops an idea of not having a way out.

To put it short......this is a cry for a map!

 

[Chipperback]

The Deustchland Campaign

Hörnla, I'm actually working on finding a good FRG-DDR map from the era and having it scanned.
　
　
As for the war. I used some of both of Hackett's scenarios (remember he wrote a novel based on an overwhelming NATO victory and a separate scenario where NATO is forced to accept a peace on Soviet terms), combined with Mario's scenario of the south-Italy. To build a basic template of the battlefield, combined with using a likely Soviet scenario to entry.
　
　

"What I can hardly understand is that the Soviet offensive towards Hamburg are being stopped rather cold."

　
　
The Warsaw Pact wanted to fortify a direct punch in the North with a group of landings and launching from the North sea and the Baltic Sea.
　
　
They ran into three problems. 1. A dogged British and American naval counter attack to greatly hurt the sea landing, the Soviet didn't get the burst they expected 2. A early gamble using a counter by Dutch forces that kept the Soviet off-balance and took away more of their numbers.
　
　
3. The British Army of the Rhine and the American 3rd Armor in a phase set of defenses, combined with American and British air strikes and supply lines being dogged by anti-Soviet elements in the DDR and as far east as Poland.
　
　
4. The need for additional manpower and supply to the bloody stalemate in Berlin.
　
　
In short the Warsaw Pact force North is similar to the WP units crunching Stuttgart. They may be knocking on the door, but "reward" didn't match the materiel put into it.
　
　

" If the Soviets coming from the CSSR don't put them through a meatgrinder, even when retreating Westwards they could, rather must, fall that aformentioned thrust on Stuttgart into the flank and into the rear."

　
　
The Soviet initial thrust but that southern group on their heels. And they knew it. Munich unfortnately fell quickly. It was a bitter decision and Bonn hated it, but the numbers dictated a plan to use speed and instant impact to bleed enough the numerical advantage away while using their rapid advances against them to stretch their supply lines.
　
　
Still the Bundewehr in the south put up a fight before backing out of Munich and they managed to pound the Soviet and Czech armor south.
　
　
Further North...where Tony and his mates made first contact, A force of Soviet, Czech and Bulgarian armor and infantry moved in. Again, the NATO strategy was dictated by hard number disadvantage, which meant again hit, run reset flank, hit and run again, and add air cover. At some points it didn't, but on many points it did. Think of it as mechanized guerilla warfare. The concept that if we position well, hit you hard and fast. Get some help from the air and and disrupt your supply and command, then the bigger army dies of a million paper cuts.
　
　
The Soviet didn't die of those paper cuts, but the did lose a lot of blood, especially in the last two days when they were shuffling forces trying to make a break elsewhere. The Russian high command wanted a quick strike. They wanted to hit the gas pedal and hit the autobahn, but when that autobahn was choked off. They had to readjust, and that is the weakness of "quick strike military doctrine", once you are in a grapple, you struggle, even with the numbers the Soviets had.
　
　

"Last but not least. Do I understand a defensive posture with their BACKSIDES close to the Rhine is NATO's answer if things go wrong?

　
　
That the basic plan, but the detail surrounds again the concept of a number of pre-panned defensible position designed to allow NATO as many good chances to affect maximum damage, which the possibility that if and when you get opportunities to counter, you counter and push them back. Each time you back, slow them or stop them, you inflict casualties, you force them to tap supply lines and you take time away from them. Again, the Soviet plan calls for a quick knockout and a capitulation, not Stalingrad '84.
　
　

Overall, NATO doesn't really have a way out circa unless losing Germany is an option, (which is isn't). NATO has to be unconventional in a conventional war to have a chance...in this one they were...just enough to where now the Soviets are a little worried.
　

　

 

[Zalter42]

Hörnla, I'm actually working on finding a good FRG-DDR map from the era and having it scanned.
　
　
As for the war. I used some of both of Hackett's scenarios (remember he wrote a novel based on an overwhelming NATO victory and a separate scenario where NATO is forced to accept a peace on Soviet terms), combined with Mario's scenario of the south-Italy. To build a basic template of the battlefield, combined with using a likely Soviet scenario to entry.
　
　

　
　
The Warsaw Pact wanted to fortify a direct punch in the North with a group of landings and launching from the North sea and the Baltic Sea.
　
　
They ran into three problems. 1. A dogged British and American naval counter attack to greatly hurt the sea landing, the Soviet didn't get the burst they expected 2. A early gamble using a counter by Dutch forces that kept the Soviet off-balance and took away more of their numbers.
　
　
3. The British Army of the Rhine and the American 3rd Armor in a phase set of defenses, combined with American and British air strikes and supply lines being dogged by anti-Soviet elements in the DDR and as far east as Poland.
　
　
4. The need for additional manpower and supply to the bloody stalemate in Berlin.
　
　
In short the Warsaw Pact force North is similar to the WP units crunching Stuttgart. They may be knocking on the door, but "reward" didn't match the materiel put into it.
　
　

　
　
The Soviet initial thrust but that southern group on their heels. And they knew it. Munich unfortnately fell quickly. It was a bitter decision and Bonn hated it, but the numbers dictated a plan to use speed and instant impact to bleed enough the numerical advantage away while using their rapid advances against them to stretch their supply lines.
　
　
Still the Bundewehr in the south put up a fight before backing out of Munich and they managed to pound the Soviet and Czech armor south.
　
　
Further North...where Tony and his mates made first contact, A force of Soviet, Czech and Bulgarian armor and infantry moved in. Again, the NATO strategy was dictated by hard number disadvantage, which meant again hit, run reset flank, hit and run again, and add air cover. At some points it didn't, but on many points it did. Think of it as mechanized guerilla warfare. The concept that if we position well, hit you hard and fast. Get some help from the air and and disrupt your supply and command, then the bigger army dies of a million paper cuts.
　
　
The Soviet didn't die of those paper cuts, but the did lose a lot of blood, especially in the last two days when they were shuffling forces trying to make a break elsewhere. The Russian high command wanted a quick strike. They wanted to hit the gas pedal and hit the autobahn, but when that autobahn was choked off. They had to readjust, and that is the weakness of "quick strike military doctrine", once you are in a grapple, you struggle, even with the numbers the Soviets had.
　
　

　
　
That the basic plan, but the detail surrounds again the concept of a number of pre-panned defensible position designed to allow NATO as many good chances to affect maximum damage, which the possibility that if and when you get opportunities to counter, you counter and push them back. Each time you back, slow them or stop them, you inflict casualties, you force them to tap supply lines and you take time away from them. Again, the Soviet plan calls for a quick knockout and a capitulation, not Stalingrad '84.
　
　

Overall, NATO doesn't really have a way out circa unless losing Germany is an option, (which is isn't). NATO has to be unconventional in a conventional war to have a chance...in this one they were...just enough to where now the Soviets are a little worried.
　

　

Wikimedia commons has 85 map choices.
"Maps of the history of Germany (1945–1990)" is the category.
Like this one of the occupation zones.

 

[Mario Rossi]

I thought something like that, using as reference Jack's posts.

 

[ivfl]

Seems hard to believe they advanced that much in only 3 days.I mean their doctrine emphasised speed but its not like they are facing rag tag troops.Also the terrain varies significantly across the region.It also seems like they advanced to quickly into Austria hard to believe since Austria doesn't have the terrain for a quick thrust.Bavaria also would be hard to advance quickly.For Denmark i believe they landed amphibious forces on Zeeland to besiege Copenhagen but not overrun the southern part of the country.Also if they truly advanced that much then the roads would be clogged with maybe 20 million refugees.I doubt any NATO forces would get to the front with so many refugees unless they ran over them.I always had the impression they would advance maybe 40-60 km in a 3-4 day span while their forces slowly ate away at NATO reinforcements.Serious progress would be achieved after about a week of heavy fighting during which NATO would be largely left without reserves and the soviets brought in reinforcements.I would have thought more likely that at this point soviet forces would be besieging Hamburg which would not be easily overrun for the simple fact that NATO has no intention of losing a major city at least not so quickly.And the frontline would be running between Hamburg-Gottingen-Wurzburg-Nurnberg-Regensburg-Passau for me at least it would have been more plausible at least by day 3.This kind of frontline would have seemed more plausible by day 9-10 of the war when NATO reserves are largely spent and they are in full retreat.There would also be the fact that retreating from one place would also mean a stream of refugees which would make coordination difficult.Bringing in troops from Holland and France would be harder with over 20 million german civilians on the roads.One irony is that once NATO introduces nukes on the battlefield they will be nuking West Germany itself.I wonder if the germans once they realised they where expendable tried to do something what exactly is hard to tell.But I doubt Kohl liked it when he saw that their allies where about to nuke West Germany or the territory lost to the soviets at least in order to stop them.In fact it would make more sense for the germans to surrender since they can at least continue to exist albeit under occupation than nuked of the map.

 

[Chipperback]

"Also if they truly advanced that much then the roads would be clogged with maybe 20 million refugees.I doubt any NATO forces would get to the front with so many refugees unless they ran over them.

And at least one NATO unit did that.

 

[Ingsoc75]

If anybody is interested, I put a seven part documentary on YouTube a year ago called War. Part Five might be of interest to you guys.

 

[ObssesedNuker]

Seems hard to believe they advanced that much in only 3 days.I mean their doctrine emphasised speed but its not like they are facing rag tag troops.Also the terrain varies significantly across the region.

I recommend you read Ralph Peters Red Army, which is probably the best 1980's technothriller ever when it comes to portraying the Soviet military and its system. Sure, it represents a kind of 'best-case' situation for the Warsaw Pact, but then The Third World War and Red Storm Rising actually did that for NATO so fair is fair. Suffice to say, the Soviets win in Germany after 3-5 days (I can't remember exactly how long without grabbing the book itself)...

It's also rather notable for being told entirely from the Soviet perspective, something which no other 'nonnuclear World War 3 in 80's Europe' book has done... ever.

 

[Chipperback]

I own Red Army, a well done book.

 

[ivfl]

Pretty interesting documentary while dated and I'm pretty sure todays military historians would make revisions its a pretty good look at what people feared at the time.Truth be told there would have been a possibility of a prolonged conventional war.Basically the WW1 situation one side advances to a certain point then having exhausted its forces the front stabilises in a long stalemate.Both sides fight a trench war for several years having lost most offensive weapons in the early weeks.Assuming internal unrest grows during this time a possible collapse of either side could happen.While this scenario is unlikely it was probably the only way to avoid a nuclear war a stalemate lasting years until one side is too exhausted to fight on.But the nuclear war part unfortunately uses some of the old cliches like intentionally targeting cities which is not a strategy in itself.You target something of interest and the main targets in any nuclear war would be other sides nuclear weapons and the means to deliver them.While in many cases cities would be affected regardless due to proximity to military bases this detail is absent.Also even cities would not be targeted randomly but sections of interest like some airport.Still pretty good look at what people thought back then.

 

[Chipperback]

Land Of Flatwater: The War Of 1984

A Hospital train in France -- Monday February 20, 1984

Hello, to anybody who finds this. This is the war journal of Alvin Fredrick Tyler. Call Sign "PREACHER" -- Why I got the call sign? Because of my favorite uncle Robert. He's a pastor of a big ol' church in Omaha, Nebraska and he's my role model.

Who am I? Well I'm better known as Major Alvin Frederick Tyler, United States Air Force assigned to the 36th Fighter Wing -- Bitburg, Federal Republic of Germany. I'm an Eagle Driver. McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle. Best damn fighter in the world! (Sorry Uncle Robert, I didn't mean to say "damn")

If I'm so damn good why am I in a hospital train and not in my F-15? Because last night I was flying a raid in the German Democratic Republic flying interference for some FB-111s hitting a Soviet command center in Czechoslovakia. Well, we got them, but the SAM got me..I was damaged and the concussion from the hit threw my left ram into a bulkhead. That fractured my arm. Nonetheless I was able to get me and my crippled jet home. But my arm needed surgery. I was stablized and flown out to meet a MASH unit in France. And now I'm on this train, being taken care of.


February 18, 1984 I had a night sortie, so I was already in for alert at 2300...We sortied out around 0350...It was around the time of that ultimatum with the Russian went down.. Well, 30 minutes after that ultimatum, I saw some MiG-23 Floggers...ON OUR SIDE OF THE LINE...And they were flanking them big Illyshin Il-76 planes....Paratroopers! The Soviets were really gonna do it.

Journal, I got a good lock on the MiG and I sent that boy packing to hell. But just as I did that 6 more popped up in his place...and that was nothing compared to the ground, man...and I won't even get into the rockets. They rained rockets and SCUDs on us from the ships in the Baltics and from East Germany. Thank God they weren't nuclear but they did tear up some runways. It wasn't for reinforcement from France those first 3-4 hours, we would really be hurting.

I saw how bad we were hurting when I landed at Hahn Air Base. We couldn't land at Bitburg, because the Soviets blew holes in the runways. We had engineers frantically repairing it. It was hard, but it was nothing to compared to what the ground pounders are going through. I drew a little map to better show how all hell broke out for us. Now I'll admit I'm not an artist.




I was able to get some crayolas, so I can put color in this. Excuse the crudeness of the drawing. I'm using one hand. Thankfully its my dominant hand.

The transparent pink lines were the initial Soviet rocket attack. It was designed to hurt our airpower, and it did. We barely got forward aircraft to Munich to help the Bundeswehr tank division escape to the back defense points.It pissed off a lot of us to have to give ground, but command said from the beginning they we were have to fly and fight at a supreme level.

Those heavy red lines will tell you why, man. Every boogieman story you hear about the Russians? Its all true. I've never seen more tanks and APCs in my life..Never mind aircraft. For every one of me there's three of them it seems. But they came on us like the Plague of Locusts.especially down the middle. The Soviets have something called a "Third Shock Army". I was shocked and how bad they were kicking our asses. I heard from HQ we lost 45 tanks in the first three hours. I was flying air cover over Wurzburg. You could see from up there. Total Chaos! Citizens trying to escape combined with soliders trying to fight.

You probably asking why I have all these red lines.? Because the Soviet had a lot of troops, and knew how to push the advantage.

The Soviet Navy 36th Guards stormed the beach on the North Coast. They would link up with 55th Guards tank division and the northern regiment of the NVA (National VolksArmy -- East Germany). Together they would immediately roll up on Hamburg. They have Hamburg under fire, but we're hanging on. A big reason why was that the Soviet had a serious fight on their hands on that beach, thanks to the 1st Marine battalion of the Royal Netherlands Navy. The Dutch, dude. That fired everybody up. Those Dutchmen weren't messing around. Those guys, and the Brits put them up hard. Our Boys from the V Corps joined in and it was a scrap. Hearing about that perked up the morale.

We needed that because, everything else was just going downhill it seemed. The Soviet 56th tank division was pushing hard out of Madgeburg and opened a gash down toward Kessel. And again, the midsection -- The Soviet 8th Guards along with the Czech Armies brought down something like 20 or 30 divisions according to the brass. And they were fast and flexible. We struggled to keep up."

The ground pounders have this thing called "forward defense" the idea that they would set up a line as far forward as possible, hit hard and fast and then regroup at a fixed point to defend and hit again. That set of heavy blue lines that form a box is our initial set of ground defenses. The immediate contact points. Really, its fighting in damn reverse (sorry Uncle Robert -- but its true). And the Russian made it even harder because of who was in those IL-76s I ran into. Soviet Spetsnaz Airborne. Whenever you hear the word "Spetsnaz" that's Russian for "A REAL PAIN IN YOUR ASS". Spets are like your pesky kid brother. They are all in your business. You see those little pink "LZ"s? That's the places where we know the airborne pests landed! There's maybe a dozen more places they landed and infiltrated that we don't know about.

And those Spets are sneaky, bro. They wear our uniforms, they can talk like us, know our stuff as well as we do. Hell, they even have black dudes. I didn't know they had black folks in Russia? I heard from an RAF pilot that they had to deal with some Spets saboteurs trying to mess with their Harriers. They caught one who they could have sworn sounded like he was from someplace called Brixton -- It's a place in the UK that I guess is kinda like North Omaha -- turns out he was from...Cuba. But the cat was so well trained, you had to observe real tight to the know the difference. That's the mess we are up against.

There's this big boy I met on this train. He's a tank gunner from Oklahoma. He got his shoulder jammed up something nasty fighting against a group of Spets. He said if it wasn't for the driver having his head screwed on right and asking for a call sign from a Spets troop posing as an RAF Squadron Leader, his crew would have been dead. He told me their whole story. Those fellas basically stayed in combat the entire first day. They were probably last ones left from the rout at Wurzburg (The red "1" is where they were") they linked up with another U.S. tank group and were a part of the counterattack at Untergruppenbach (the red "2") I flew some big air cover on that fight. Endless sorties that day, backing up the A-10s. The whole area was a tank picnic. Armor everywhere. Troops. The losses on both sides were unreal. The big Okie gunner said, they lost their tank there. He said again, that driver saved their lives because of how he could drive that tank through rocket fire. Turns out the driver was from North Omaha, too...And a Tech High boy no less. Me being a graduate of Omaha North...I'm programmed to hate this cat...I hope to meet this kid, someday. North Omaha, you can be proud. We're doing our part here in Europe.

"The red "3" is where the gunner told me they met the Spets. Outnumbered, they flanked, held on, and got a miracle. Turns out a Marine Recon unit was tracking the Spets, and these guys because they thought the tankers were Spets, too. They took out the Spets unit and ended up at one of those "instant bases". The Marines and the Army used anything to make a quick staging area to get guys into the fight. In this case they used the race track at Hockenheim (the red "4" on the map).

They needed it because of the situation in Bavaria. The Soviet, Czech, East German and Bulgarian forces had the numbers on us. We needed to kill 5 to 1, 6 to 1 on the ground to make a dent, especially as they marched in on Stuttgart and Fulda. Just like the Dutch up north, we got a serious surprise from the French 1st Armored down south. Journal, you probably heard about those French armored troops who rolled over a bunch of civilian cars trying to flee up the autobahn. It's probably been played on the news a dozen times. CNN has a camera everywhere it seems. If we could conscript all the news channels, we could build 10 more platoons. Well, the French at Stuttgart are standing strong with the American armor as back up. Those guys can come over my house and I'd make them a sammich! The troops are showing a lot of guts. But the Russians just keep pushing. They are so many of them. It's the same thing for us in the air. I saw red stars on tails everywhere. And they have SAMs everywhere. My CO tells me this is the biggest, densest air battle in the history of flight. You have about 4,000 aircraft crammed into a space the size of Kansas maybe. It's unimaginable...yet at the same time I'd give anything to cut this damn cast off and get into another Eagle!!!!!! I'm one of the lucky ones. I've lost maybe 6 friends since this has started. Two of my closest wingmen were shot out from around me right after we took out their first advance. One of those was "VOODOO" He and I had been tight from the first day of orientation at Colorado Springs. One second we're locking down on some Foxbats, the next second my best friend is a fireball.

Also, Journal...If you happen to get to Sokol Auditorium back in Omaha some Friday night for some good live music...HUG ANY POLISH CAT YOU HAPPEN TO SEE. The CO said some Polish "Resistance" help set up a nice air strike that disrupted the Soviet advance. The said that some FB-111s and B-52s pasted some place called Legnica..It was a Soviet command center. Taking that out bought us a lot of time. As you can see from the map, we needed that time. Also check out those green "V"s. That's where we got some covert help from East Germans taking out supply lines and such. We have a least a few folks on the other side who are on our side.

I don't know what could happen next. I hear on the grapevine that the Russians are launching nerve gas on us. And they are regrouping to punch us again. And things are getting rough in Italy, too. Man, I knew when I decided to go to the Academy what I was getting into. Still, it's surreal...that's the word. I always wanted to fly...I never thought I'd be flying for my life.

See you soon, Journal. Hopefully in another Eagle.
AFT -- "Preacher"

 

[Chipperback]

Land Of Flatwater: Memories

Chip and Brett's room -- Schuyler, Nebraska -- 7:15am -- Monday February 20, 1984.

Chip was awake. He slept better last night, perhaps it was because of thoughts of a freckle-faced red-haired girl, whom he thought he'd never see again.

Chip's thought went back to another morning. On the beach at the hotel in Miami. A sunny day. A sand castle. And Jill, slowly turning rather soft, cute tan color. He smiled at the thought.

But even then, reality smacked them in the face. That was the day warplanes clash just south of where they were. And now, we're in a world at war.

Chip just wanted to forget for awhile...

"Do you have to get up so early," Brett whined.

"Today, I'm going to help the cadets unload some medicine they are bringing in."

"You and the dorky Air Patrol kids," Brett teased. "You guys are all so scared....

"Only a dummy wouldn't be," Chip retorted.

"I'm not dumb..I'm just not scared," Brett said. Brett was lying, though. He couldn't sleep last night at all. But he'd never tell Chip that.

Chip pulled out his memories from the trip to Miami. The pictures. The game program...and this...




It was the front page of the paper the next day. His hero racing into the endzone. The two most important points in the world at that moment.

Brett looked at the paper. "That game was so cool," he said.

"I know," Chip said. "I was there."

"You were NOT!" Brett protested.

"We went to the game," Chip said in a snooty way. "It was a Christmas present...SEE?"

Chip showed the Brett the picture of himself sitting with his dad, in the Orange Bowl.

Brett was impressed, "WOW!!! You did go. I didn't know you liked football or could play it."

"Nebraska is my team," Chip said. "I just hope we get to play next year."

At that moment Brett just stayed silent. "You really are scared," Brett said.

"Yes," Chip said.

"Denny says you know a lot about this stuff," Brett said. "Your the smart kid."

"Sometimes I wish I wasn't," Chip said. "Sometimes I wish I just like every other kid."

Brett just blurted it out. The very thing he didn't want Chip to know. "I'm scared, too."

"I'll betcha Turner Gill wouldn't be scared," Chip said.


Kearney, Nebraska Town Hall-- 8:30am.

A group of six strapping young men are carrying supplies into the town hall along with the national guard.Medicine, typewriters, beds, spare clothes, food. More of everything, a lot more of everything.

These men had already been up a couple of hours. All friends, all just helping out wherever they can. Trying to prepare....in case...

"I'm glad you guys rolled out of bed to help," the town Mayor said. "We still have a lot a lot to do."

"A lot to do, sir but we'll do it," the one of the young men said.

"Yeah, Turner wouldn't let us sleep in...Just like in preseason conditioning another said,"

At that moment, the young man they were talking about entered in carrying two more big boxes. A month ago, Turner Gill was carrying tackler into an endzone. Now...He's just carrying boxes.

"C'mon fellas keep it moving," the quarterback said. "We got a lot to do this morning. The troops in West Germany aren't getting any time off,"

"Yes sir, Turner sir!" one of his teammates wisecracked.

His future father-in-law was also there. He was fixing the water pipes. He smiled as he saw his future son-in-law doing what he does. Taking charge and leading by example.

This is Nebraska Public Radio...news at this hour...NATO forces are in a swift retreat amid another Warsaw Pact counterattack. We have received uncomfirmed reports that nerve gas has been used on fronts near Fulda and Kassel.

The father noticed the worried look on his soon-to-be son-in-law. "Don't let it shake you, son," the father said. "Our boys will make it through.

"I hope so sir," Turner said. "But its not looking good. I'm scared for my mom right now."

"Have you heard from her?"

"Yes," Turner said. "She's staying with some relatives of ours in Palestine, Texas."

"I wish she was able to get up here or me down there."

"I know son," the father said. "But lets not have a spirit of fear."

"Its kind of hard not to, sir," the young man said.

 

[sloreck]

Very good so far..just curious about what's going on in Norway. US Marines (and UK Royal Marines) were due to reinforce there and it was expected the Soviets would hit hard to get as far as they could to help open up the naval exit routes from Murmansk & Archangelsk to the Atlantic. NATO air bases up north (like Andoya) were very involved with ASW, and also could be used to stage TACAIR assaults on Soviet naval & air facilities in Murmansk & Archangelsk.

BTW the Soviets using nerve gas is a "bad thing" because US/NATO doctrine says all WMD (nuke/chem/bio) are equivalent & will be responded to in kind. Since NATO does not have chem weapons in 1984...... Also note, although NATO does not have chem weapons they have good chem warfare gear and training, Soviet and WP gear much less user friendly so gas would be used (at this point) against transportation hubs/depots probably w/persistent agents, not so much against frontline positions. Diesperson of depots will reduce effectiveness in a military sense, but since frequwntly many civilians (unprotected) near depots & transport hubs the civilian casualties could be horrendous. Might have NATO tell the Soviets that continued chem use will be bad for them, stop now.

 

[Falkenburg]

Just caught up after a few days away. Gripping stuff.

Perhaps a small point in the grand scheme of things but I'm glad somebody talked some sense into Caroline.

Incredible job, Chipperback.

Falkenburg

 

[ObssesedNuker]

BTW the Soviets using nerve gas is a "bad thing" because US/NATO doctrine says all WMD (nuke/chem/bio) are equivalent & will be responded to in kind. Since NATO does not have chem weapons in 1984......

NATO does have chemical weapons, but they are not anywhere near as thorough as the Soviets and would take quite some time before deployment/

Also note, although NATO does not have chem weapons they have good chem warfare gear and training,

The military yeah... it will be a bad day for a West German civilian...

I also should note that the Novichoke series of agents were designed to bypass NATO chemical detection and protection gear of the 1980's. When the USSR came down and we first learned of Novichok[1], there was a bit of a scramble to readapt NATO chemical gear...

Soviet and WP gear much less user friendly so gas would be used (at this point) against transportation hubs/depots probably w/persistent agents, not so much against frontline positions.

Agreed. The Soviets would also try too move through areas they have gassed as quickly as possible... a unit which gets stuck in a area contaminated by chemical weapons has a hell of a time getting out.

The gas on the airbases would hurt the most, because the ground crews would have to conduct operations wearing that bulky gear. Things are bad enough when you are tired, stressed out, trying to work quickly, and the enemy launches air raids on your base seemingly every minute... now imagine having to do all of that in a completely sealed and suit where if you tear it, you likely die painfully and horribly.

civilian casualties could be horrendous.

Thats an understatement. Even civilians with chemical gear would rapidly be affected, since civilians are not psychologically prepared to operate in a chemical environment. Given the quality of the stuff[2] both sides had, we are looking at a civilian fatality rate of 80+%, with the other -20% pretty much crippled for the rest of their now shortened lives...

[1]And yes, Novichok exists... it wasn't just a cold war rumor. There's even a little information thats been leaked on its chemical composition, although the full details are still classified for rather obvious reasons. Its exact lethality is unknown, but a minimum of VX-equivalent is a safe assumption.
[2]Actual weaponized nerve gas, not the low-quality stuff made with civilian technology that the Iraqis used in the 80's or the home-made garbage that Japanese terrorist group let loose in the subway, but agents made with military-purpose equipment and military-purpose supplies.

 

[EWHM]

I think it extremely likely that tactical nuclear weapons would be used by NATO in response to any significant use of chemical weapons.

 

[Archangel]

Everything about Clayton suggests he was a spook. Hope he can take out Tyles before the war goes nuclear.

 

[Lord Grattan]

Everything about Clayton suggests he was a spook. Hope he can take out Tyles before the war goes nuclear.

It was established a few pages ago (post 312) that agent Clayton is Black. Also, why did you write "spook" rather then "Black"? The word spook when used in reference to a Black person is a racist insult.

 

[Apollo 20]

It was established a few pages ago (post 312) that agent Clayton is Black. Also, why did you write "spook" rather then "Black"? The word spook when used in reference to a Black person is a racist insult.

"Spook" also refers to a spy or intelligence agent/operative. I presume that's the intended meaning here, though the choice of words is unfortunate, to say the least.

 

[Chipperback]

The next chapter

The next chapter will come out right after Mario Rossi pulls up the next chapter of Noi non ci saremo. From Mario tells me, its going to be a real mindblower.