Land of Flatwater: Protect and Survive Middle America

That's actually more optimistic then what the Soviets thought would happen. The article you linked actually overestimates the extent, effectiveness, and purpose of the Soviet civil defense program, which should be expected given that it was apparently written by neo-con warhawks in the late-70's*.

*When I saw Donald Rumsfeld's name at the end, I knew this was the kind of stuff that Reagan used to propogate the myth of US nuclear weakness in his campaign against Carter.
Well, I envisioned the whole "reunifying Russia" thing taking decades to to come to fruition, and even then it'd have like a tenth the population of OTL and would'nt include a lot more than the "core" European Russian territory and parts of Western Siberia (Successionists would have a field day, whatever's left of them that is). By then, in comparison, the US would have already reestablished itself, though perhaps as multiple different independent states.
The difference would be that more of the interior Soviet military machine would survive, offering better conditions for well-armed warlords.

The article I referred to was pretty hawkish, but if the Soviets really had a more thought-out civil (and military/industrial) survival plan, it may make a difference in the postwar development.
 
The Soviets surrender? Seems unlikely.

Maybe its the only option left. The nuclear Arsenal of the USSR was very dependend of landbased ICBM. 75% of USSR warheads were based on ICBM´s. If we now assume, that all soviet ICBM´s are used or destroyed in an nuclear exchange, the USSR would be practical defenceless. There Bombers would have still no chance to reach the USA and the Missle-subs would be very vulnerable to US-hunter-subs. But the USA would even after the lose of all there ICBM still have the majority of there warheads intact on there missle-subs. The USA would be still have the potential for a third or fourth strike. In such a situation surrender may be the only option for the soviets.
Seeing that this TL is major influenced by "The Day after" I wonder if something like this happend. It implied in the Movie, that the USA fired their ICBM´s first, but we just hear that 300 soviet ICBMs are fired at the USA. I don´t think the Soviets would let the majoritys off there ICBMs be destroyed in their Silos, so I think its possible we had in "the Day after" a partial succesfull US-first-strike, which took out 70-80% of the soviet ICBMs.
 
The real question is who is left to formally accept the soviet surrender Whatever is left of NATO is only a fragment of what it once was, surviving forces are scattered demoralised and caught up in internal security.No one cares about such a surrender since it would have no practical effect.Also whatever is left of the Soviet Union would also be largely scattered,one russian announcing surrender would be tantamount to nothing.Surviving forces have little to no incentive to surrender they lost everything and to make matters worse the americans fired first.Who are they surrendering to a bunch of english and french soldiers who can't do anything since they have to maintain law and order in their home countries.We surrender! Great, accepted now leave us alone since we have enough problems without having you as POWs.:D
 
Seeing that this TL is major influenced by "The Day after" I wonder if something like this happend. It implied in the Movie, that the USA fired their ICBM´s first, but we just hear that 300 soviet ICBMs are fired at the USA.
Actually the film is very scrupulous about not saying who launched first, though the first use of nukes seems to have been by NATO in W. Germany.
The 300 ICBMs is an initial count and possibly inaccurate. The SAC officer on LOOKING GLASS says 'numerous ICBMs' after mentioning 300, which makes me think that the count was unclear.
 
Uh... what?

The area West of the Mississippi did not start to get heavily settled until after the introduction of railroads.

I am fully aware of that. But the original 13 colonies are already a massive chunk of land and albeit communication via sea was possible and certainly faster than on land, it is an impressive feat to establish a democracy on such a geographical scale!

Before the aforementioned inventions helped matters, the USA had (as organized states) even spread to the Mississipi (Missouri since 1819 being beyond the river, which hardly matters as the river itself is the main mean of communication and traffic) and the elections worked as good or bad as they do still.

However, with the possibility to communicate via radio and maybe even arpanet and travel by plane (however limited), a working United States are nothing near impossible after a few years.

 

The mentality of the people of the United States in the 1800's was also very different from the mentality of the people of the United States in the 1980's.

Hmmm, yes, the Americans in the 1800s were still heading towards a Civil War due to unresolved basic issues in the outlook of their nation -including the possibility to secede.

The US in the 1980's was not, in fact, the most patriotic country in the world... otherwise Reagan would have been able to be alot more open with what he was doing. Patriotism and nationalism are pretty much the same thing and the stuff happening in the Third World at the time strikes me as much more patriotic then what Americans did.

Coming from the 1980s world's least patriotic country, I would put that up to debate. Of course, the US-Americans never had a monopoly on patriotism. I would argue, still, that the 1980s USA had no larger secessionist movements (unlike Great Britain, France and Spain, e.g.) and still held a general belief, that being an American is rather a good than a bad thing. And, besides Reagan won in a landslide on a (among other things) pronouncedly patriotic and hardliner platform.

Note that an all-out Soviet strike would be weighted towards counter-force, but there will plenty of counter-value strikes. In the other threads (and this one) I have also noted a underestimation of the fallout problems in terms of food production. The heavy metals and longer-lived radioactive particles are going too demolish the fertility of American agricultural regions for DECADES... what crops that would manage to grow in such conditions would be unsafe to eat because of the output of Alpha and Beta particles.

If the destruction of national infrastructure does not do the United States in, the scarcity of (safe-to-eat) food will.

Your statement "weighted towards counter-force" is a very important one. A lot of entries in this thread seem to imply either a 100% counter-value or -force strategy. A mixture is a certainty, apart from the general overlap between both.

Thanks for pointing out the fallout-problem again. I would really like to know how unhealthy living off American land would be these decades later because that is a matter the few Germans have to deal with, too.

I think that we can safely say that no one has 'won' in the traditional sense of the word.

Exactly, there are just different levels of post-apocalyptic scenarios. Apart from that...Tic Tac Toe.





That assumes that people 2014 even remember Reagan.

I am certain they will, and long afterwards. Just as people remembered Gilgamesh, Agamemmnon, the fall of Atlantis, Siegfried, Etzel and King Arthur. However, I doubt that the scenario Macragge made up kills of Civilization down to a level that continuous historical writing ceases. People in the Southern hemisphere can do that, too. The details of the Three-Day-War may be hard to reconstruct, though, afterwards.

in a building that perhaps was a school, and there was a TV set playing a tape of an educational program, and none of those young people knew what the hell was going on.

He, that could be OTL 2011.

There is a strong possibility that things could have ended up like that. The devolution of the human species down to the prime thought of day-to-day survival first, foremost and only.

People living under conditions of day-to-day-survival were the people who painted caves in a miraculous way, created tiny sculpures of fat women and had probably a rich tradition of educational oral storytelling.

But if you have reached a level of "devolution" far worse, there is a strong possibility that you belong to the people who do not even survive.

Of course there will be plenty of Caspar-Hauser-figures wandering the wastelands. But, sadly as it is, they won't matter in the long run. They will be shadows to be gone.

What will matter afterwards are the people who lived in a community with skilled leadership and with a huge stroke of luck so a good deal of them could make it through until they could say "this is still pretty bad, and we lost a lot of good and Dear people, but the worst is behind us". These may be few people. But centuries later, these will be the people who are remembered as the forefathers of those who then populate these continents.

I recall Macragge out right stating that it was just a rumor flying around. Plus: why would the expedition back to Europe be so worried about Warsaw Pact military remnants if that were the case?

Because they were there. And ivfl is right here.

And who could tell whether they received a message of surrender, believed it, pretended not to hear it, etc. pp. How could they even know it was genuine and not a ruse? It will be a situation similar to the infamous Japanese soldiers staying in the jungles until decades after WW2.

Also...to whom should the Soviets surrender? Who would have the authority?

What is imaginable is that a cease-fire is ... well.... cried out.




I don´t think the Soviets would let the majoritys off there ICBMs be destroyed in their Silos, so I think its possible we had in "the Day after" a partial succesfull US-first-strike, which took out 70-80% of the soviet ICBMs.

My assumption, too, is that the West was first at the trigger - not just on the tactical level as confirmed by Macragge. I conclude that from the level of destruction in the UK. I cannot imagine that an all-out nuclear exchange leads to the Soviets only putting a fraction of the nukes against an enemy actively pursuing nuclear war against the CCCP with an arsenal of several hundred nukes.

And it perfectly makes sense to me to decide that after the first nuke has gone off (and then it was even your side's fault) that the only remaining option is to go all-out on that very second. War is a dragster-race at this point.

Only this (or a phenomenal failure rate) explains that almost all discussions of P&S's war imply this picture: major NATO partners in Europe have received a few dozen hits just below 100, Germany "only" 500 (my assumption), major Neutrals and secondary Capitalist nations (e.g. Australia, Brazil, Sweden) only a handful of explosions if any at all. The Soviets had no chance to employ their nuclear stockpile of ca. 30,000 warheads, and just as well not of their 10,000 strategic warheads. MAD is not a joke, though, so they will still be able to accomplish several thousand nuclear explosions all over Northern America. I always have the guesstimate of 2,000-3,000 in the back of my head. I am sure other have made their assumptions long ago, too.

However, the nature of a successful NATO first strike implies to me that the Soviet Union has been hit by a lot more nukes than the United States, so even with a better civil defence (and Chipperback describes e.g. a better-than-expected level of preparedness in Nebraska, anyways) their chances (or rather their timeframe) of recovery will be worse.

The Soviet Union was the largest country in the world, but OTOH just 10% larger than the US and Canada combined. Oh, and add to that the possibility of a thorough Chinese-Soviet exchange on top of it all.






 
Seeing that this TL is major influenced by "The Day after" I wonder if something like this happend. It implied in the Movie, that the USA fired their ICBM´s first, but we just hear that 300 soviet ICBMs are fired at the USA. I don´t think the Soviets would let the majoritys off there ICBMs be destroyed in their Silos, so I think its possible we had in "the Day after" a partial succesfull US-first-strike, which took out 70-80% of the soviet ICBMs.

That makes no sense given what we know of Soviet thinking regarding nuclear warfare. the Soviets in the 1980's believed the only kind of limited nuclear war was a non-nuclear war. The Soviets would immediatly bring their ICBM's (if they are not already) to full readiness upon word of the detonation in Germany and would empty them all at the first hint of a upcoming NATO nuclear attack.

In these conditions, you would be lucky to take out 5% the Soviet nukes.

Hmmm, yes, the Americans in the 1800s were still heading towards a Civil War due to unresolved basic issues in the outlook of their nation -including the possibility to secede.

Indeed, they did not have the comfortable lives of the Americans in the 1980's whose lower-class lived in luxury that would be envied by the poor of most of the rest of the world. Now thats been torn away in an instant, along with everything both the 1800s and 1980s Americans both had: law & order, a reliable supply of food, and a sense of direction.

Coming from the 1980s world's least patriotic country, I would put that up to debate.

I never said the Americans were the worlds least patriotic country.

I would argue, still, that the 1980s USA had no larger secessionist movements (unlike Great Britain, France and Spain, e.g.) and still held a general belief, that being an American is rather a good than a bad thing.

There were plenty of militia movements in the United States, some of whom had secessionist sympathies. And the general belief of which country is good and bad is going to be irrelevant to those struggling to survive.

Your statement "weighted towards counter-force" is a very important one. A lot of entries in this thread seem to imply either a 100% counter-value or -force strategy. A mixture is a certainty, apart from the general overlap between both.

And that means both urban and rural infrastructures pulverized.

Thanks for pointing out the fallout-problem again. I would really like to know how unhealthy living off American land would be these decades later because that is a matter the few Germans have to deal with, too.

The Germans actually have it even worse. At least the United States doesn't have to worry about persistant nerve agents...

My assumption, too, is that the West was first at the trigger - not just on the tactical level as confirmed by Macragge. I conclude that from the level of destruction in the UK. I cannot imagine that an all-out nuclear exchange leads to the Soviets only putting a fraction of the nukes against an enemy actively pursuing nuclear war against the CCCP with an arsenal of several hundred nukes.

Which, as I noted, makes no sense seeing as the Soviets would rather explicitly fire their weapons well before NATO strategic missiles likely even left their silos. And Macragge rather explicitly makes it clear that Great Britain (which was integrated within the American SIOP) was launching in retaliation.

And it perfectly makes sense to me to decide that after the first nuke has gone off (and then it was even your side's fault) that the only remaining option is to go all-out on that very second. War is a dragster-race at this point.

The Soviets understood this better then the Americans, they didn't take the idea of limited nuclear war anywhere near seriously.
 
I beg to differ.

The most patriotic country in the world? ;) With a Constitution which worked over a huge unveleoped country while neither telegraph nor railways existed?

It will take a while to sort things out, but the USA will certainly be back. Maybe it takes a Postman to accomplish this. :rolleyes: Maybe give or take a few stars. Maybe it will be a "Holy American Empire"-kind of thing for a time. But I cannot imagine Americans even imagining the unimaginable.

I really have to agree with this, even more so in the light of the fact that modern communications and the know how on how to maintain them will still be present.

Whatever communities survive will certainly be very decentralised and self reliant, but maintaining a semblance of central and federal government will be easy down the line, as communications come back online.
A lot of people here don't realise that a country does not need an overreaching government doing all the things we currently expect from it to survive as a nation with a functioning government. The only thing required at present from a functional central government, is coordination, law and order and ensuring that local administrations and decisions makers are aware of their new roles and responsibilities. Who cares about social security, a welfare state, grants to artists, pork barrel spending and grandiose plans anymore after a nuclear war after all? No one does and this alone will enable to government to refocus itself on its core responsibilities and tasks.

A lot of people who whine that "nuclear war is not survivable" are underestimating the amount of "waste" and "uselessness" which exists in the day to day life of most western nations and communities. Things like driving off on a week-end by the seaside, is a waste in a sense. As you don't need it to survive, it is nice for sure, but you don't need it to survive. By a similar token, do you need to eat Chinese takeaways meals to meet your basic food needs, nope you don't, week old bread can do this as easily. Do you need a TV to be informed? No you don't a pice of paper rag can do this as easily and perhaps more effectively.

It strikes me that a lot of people are seeing post strike survival through the prism of their own current day to day lives. Perhaps it is because I am a very frugal person, but I try and see this differently myself. People and nations lived and thrived with a tenth of what we have now. After a nuclear war we would have a tenth but without losing the accumulated knowledge which allowed us to have to the other ninetenths. A very big help in you want my opinion.

Sure there will be deaths, sure there will be people vomiting their guts following radiation poisoning, sure there will be untold horrors in some wastelands. But I dare say that after all, twenty megadeaths are just a statistic which does not fundamentaly change the bigger picture.

I know I sound like a souless machine when I say this. But sadly when faced with these situations, you have to think like this in order to survive and still be human ...

Note that an all-out Soviet strike would be weighted towards counter-force, but there will plenty of counter-value strikes. In the other threads (and this one) I have also noted a underestimation of the fallout problems in terms of food production. The heavy metals and longer-lived radioactive particles are going too demolish the fertility of American agricultural regions for DECADES... what crops that would manage to grow in such conditions would be unsafe to eat because of the output of Alpha and Beta particles.

If the destruction of national infrastructure does not do the United States in, the scarcity of (safe-to-eat) food will.

I will once again repeat myself, but the radioactivity released by a H bomb cannot be compard to the radioactivity released following the Chernobyl incident.

The proportion of fallout from a nuclear weapon explosion is heavily geared towards shorter lived isotopes compared to a nuclear meltdown. This is simply because nearly all the uranium and plutonium present will have fissioned and very long lived isotopes like plutonium, americium or neptunium won't be present in large quantities. Most of the energy released by an H bomb come from the fusion reactions and not from the fission reactors. The size of the fission core of most Soviet H Bombs will be rather small, we are talking about hundred of kilograms of fissile materials here, not of tons. Compare this to the hundred of tons of nuclear fuel vaporised into the atmosphere by the Chernobyl explosion.

Fallout will be a huge problems in areas where grounburst occured, the levels will certainly be far above natural background radiation levels for some time. But I don't expect them to stay lethal for long.
 
A very interesting discussion :)

"People living under conditions of day-to-day-survival were the people who painted caves in a miraculous way, created tiny sculpures of fat women and had probably a rich tradition of educational oral storytelling."

A good point and I agree with that. Such could continue if the elders in a community make it a priority.

"I know I sound like a souless machine when I say this. But sadly when faced with these situations, you have to think like this in order to survive and still be human."

To survive, yes you do have to think like this. However, you do risk giving up pieces of what make you human to do it, unless one is truly just a real jerk, then they wouldn't care.

"A lot of people who whine that "nuclear war is not survivable" are underestimating the amount of "waste" and "uselessness" which exists in the day to day life of most western nations and communities. Things like driving off on a week-end by the seaside, is a waste in a sense. As you don't need it to survive, it is nice for sure, but you don't need it to survive. By a similar token, do you need to eat Chinese takeaways meals to meet your basic food needs, nope you don't, week old bread can do this as easily. Do you need a TV to be informed? No you don't a pice of paper rag can do this as easily and perhaps more effectively.

A fair point, but on the other side one person's "waste" is another person's treasure. I would even goes as far to say that one does need that diversion to survive in a deeper sense that goes for beyond the strict biological definition of the term. That escape away to a fun place be it tangible or in their imagination.

As for food? If it wasn't meant to be enjoyed, the Good Lord wouldn't have given us taste buds..just sayin' ;)

True, one doesn't need a TV to be informed. I like a good book myself, and I work in the broadcast industry, but,the intelligent, creative possibility of it to inform and entertain make it nowhere near a "waste" in my eyes.

I have both thoughts when it comes to this. I would be very happy to see nuclear weapons banned. I am hopeful that citybuster-type nuclear armaments will never be used. The thought of "limited", "survivable", or "winnable" is laughably repugnant to me.

But,one of my characters echoed one of my core beliefs about being human.

"You may think you won't want to live, but something deep inside your guts and your balls will force you to try. It's a human instinct that comes from a lot farther than us, man."

It's that belief that you get up the morning, put you pants you and get after that success even when you don't feel like it.

It's that belief that has me training for a marathon.

It's that belief that has me still believing that Nebraska football win get another championship, I'll see an American F1 champ in my lifetime and a World Cup-winning USA team in my lifetime (I know the last two are LONG SHOTS).

It's that belief that would make people get up out of the shelters, and make a go of it.
 
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A fair point, but on the other side one person's "waste" is another person's treasure. I would even goes as far to say that one does need that diversion to survive in a deeper sense that goes for beyond the strict biological definition of the term. That escape away to a fun place be it tangible or in their imagination.

As for food? If it wasn't meant to be enjoyed, the Good Lord wouldn't have given us taste buds..just sayin' ;)

True, one doesn't need a TV to be informed. I like a good book myself, and I work in the broadcast industry, but,the intelligent, creative possibility of it to inform and entertain make it nowhere near a "waste" in my eyes.

Again, I think that we have to think out of the box with regards to what humans in a pressurised situation with scarcity to boot would do.
There are a lot of ways to make very basic food items appear varied and more tasteful than would otherwise be the case. The week-old bread I mentionned earlier is a perfect ingrendient for a delicious dessert could Pain Perdu for example, which only requires milk, butter and sugar.
Don't forget that a lot of food items we currently cherish and love, have very humble and even in some cases, very "yucky" origins shall we say. Pizza for example was originally meant to save scraps of meat, which would otherwise be thrown away. Sausages and Haggis have similar origins and yet they ar enow delicacies in some countries and restaurants have built their reputation on them!

You also have to look at what happened in Gulags and Prison Camps to see what humans are capable of, especially as their conditions have a lot of similarities to the first year after a strike. People have done plays, paintings, written books and peoms with very very little in these places. Necessity is the mother of all inventions and have a look at what som prisoners made forced by necessity and with very little during their captivity:
http://www.museumoftechnology.org.uk/expand.php?key=16
http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/media/sound/camp-cookers

There will be a lot of technical knowledge and know-how around in surviving communities. I would not be surprised if a lot of innovations and DIY takes place to fix what has stopped working and to invent new things to solve the new problems arising.

Radio is a very basic technology after all, and it does not take a lot of build emitters and especially recievers.

Life won't be the same as before that's for sure, but at least in Nebraska it looks like a functional government is still standing and law and order will likely prevail. As I am sure we will agree, country folks are hardy people and they are used to get their hands dirty, something of tremendous importance in the new circumstances.
The conditions are dire that's for sure, but hardly Gulag like in my opinion and the fact that people who more or less know what to do are still around will make a HUGE difference.

I have both thoughtS when it comes to this. I would be very happy to see nuclear weapons banned. I am hopeful that will never be used. The thought of "limited", "survivable", or "winnable" is laughably repugnant to me.

In an ideal world I would like to see nuclear weapons banned as well. But we don't live in an ideal world sadly, so they will still be around but fortunately in lower numbers that before.
 
When's the next update, Chip?

Another thing that might have hurt Kerrey if he was the nominee: The question over whether his SEAL unit intentionally killed innocent civilians in Vietnam (I don't remember the name of the incident).

Kerrey is also the VP nominee in the President Perot TL (which features a major city getting nuked, among other things).
 
The only thing required at present from a functional central government, is coordination, law and order and ensuring that local administrations and decisions makers are aware of their new roles and responsibilities.

None of that exists. Communication between states and the federal government may exist, but anything below that will not except in very limited area's. And I have my dobuts about the federal level: those kinds of communications are priority targets.

We can also discount sattelites. Extreme altitude nuclear explosions would do those in.

But I dare say that after all, twenty megadeaths are just a statistic which does not fundamentaly change the bigger picture.

Twenty-megadeaths? Try more like 60 as the minimum.

I will once again repeat myself, but the radioactivity released by a H bomb cannot be compard to the radioactivity released following the Chernobyl incident.

I never made that comparison.

The proportion of fallout from a nuclear weapon explosion is heavily geared towards shorter lived isotopes compared to a nuclear meltdown. This is simply because nearly all the uranium and plutonium present will have fissioned and very long lived isotopes like plutonium, americium or neptunium won't be present in large quantities. Most of the energy released by an H bomb come from the fusion reactions and not from the fission reactors. The size of the fission core of most Soviet H Bombs will be rather small, we are talking about hundred of kilograms of fissile materials here, not of tons. Compare this to the hundred of tons of nuclear fuel vaporised into the atmosphere by the Chernobyl explosion.

Fallout will be a huge problems in areas where grounburst occured, the levels will certainly be far above natural background radiation levels for some time. But I don't expect them to stay lethal for long.

Strontium-90 and Caesium-137 have half-lives of 28 and 30 years, respectively. Both are dangerous when consumed. Both were found in significant quantities in the food of Bikini Atoll. Bikini Atoll suffered a comparatively small number of nuclear explosions over a period of time.

EDIT: This is a highly accurate look at a nuclear war in the late-80's...
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/nuclear/nuclearwar1.html
 
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None of that exists. Communication between states and the federal government may exist, but anything below that will not except in very limited area's. And I have my dobuts about the federal level: those kinds of communications are priority targets.

We can also discount sattelites. Extreme altitude nuclear explosions would do those in.

Saying that none of that exists without backing up your point is a very sweeping statement in my opinion.
Don't forget that the United States has a very well developped and organised back up communication through amateur radio, including the Amateur Radio Emergency service and the military auxiliary radio system. By their very nature, these systems are almost invulnerable to a nuclear strike as you can't take out all at once. Spreading information and messages through this system will definitely be possible on a nationwide basis. Even more so a few months after the strike when interferences caused by fallout will have diminished to acceptable levels.

The telephone system will be fully intact in unstruck areas and more or less operational in places. Destroying the entire system is impossible, and enough know-how and technical expertise will exist to maintain the system. Long distance calls will be rare that's for sure and we will likely wait for a few months before anything more than a skeletion network exists. But telephony is a rather simple technology, which can be simplified to a c1910 level should this become necessary.

We tend to forget about it now and most people these days don't even know it existed, but telegraphy is another possibility for enabling middle to long distance communications, potentially across the entire CONUS. The technical and technological base required to build, maintain and operate Morse telegraphy systems is low. There are likely dozen of thousands of survivors who know the code and building basic morse telegraph is well within the technical know how of most workshops I would say.

Gearing down (copryright: 1632) has to be the order of the day with regards to communication and most technologies, at least for some time. The renaissance of the postal system described by General Patton is extremely plausible for example and the best thing that goes with this is that the infrastructure already exists.

For longer range communication, plenty of planes will be available to act as courriers both from the Civilian Air Patrol and from planes lying around. One bi monthly flight between North Platte Nebraska and Columbia Washington, stopping in communities along the way. Won't be burning a lot of fuel and would go a long way in maintainin communications.

ARPANET as suggest by Hornla is another possibility, which I would not discount entirely as well. A few network nods have survived somewhere and if they can still connect with each others then ...

Now of course some surviving governments may not try to gear down with regards to communication and will pay a severe price for it. But I suspect that both in Nebraska, Washington, the "Republic of the Brazos" and Georgia radio communications will enavble them to know about each other existence in at most a year, if not well before that.

Twenty-megadeaths? Try more like 60 as the minimum.

My point was that casualties are irrelevant in the debate in some ways.

I never made that comparison.

Strontium-90 and Caesium-137 have half-lives of 28 and 30 years, respectively. Both are dangerous when consumed. Both were found in significant quantities in the food of Bikini Atoll. Bikini Atoll suffered a comparatively small number of nuclear explosions over a period of time.

EDIT: This is a highly accurate look at a nuclear war in the late-80's...
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/nuclear/nuclearwar1.html

My point with regards to Chernobyl is that nuclear science is not as easy as it seems at first sight. It is easy to demonise everything with the name nuclear on it because of the radioactivity issu. But the reality on the ground is very different and a lot of it actually remains unknown and yearning to be explored. A very good thing which will come out of the P&S Universe, is that knowledge on radioactivity and all its effects will be many times more important than the current one.

Making comparisons with Bikini Atoll is iffy since the concentration of explosions in a single area is huge, including both Atomic and Hydrogen devices and groundbursts. A similar concentration of explosions on such a small area won't happen in the mainland United States, so on the whole contamination levels might be lower than in Bikini ...
 

Falkenburg

Monthly Donor
It's that belief that has me still believing that Nebraska football win get another championship, I'll see an American F1 champ in my lifetime and a World Cup-winning USA team in my lifetime (I know the last two are LONG SHOTS).

It's that belief that would make people get up out of the shelters, and make a go of it.

Careful which of these you might feel tempted to incorporate into your TL.
Otherwise this will need moving to ASB. :eek::D

Falkenburg
 
In regards to radios, ARES/ARCS (I'm not sure when they switched) and ARRS are good resources. TRhey could be incorporated into RACES in the event of a major emergency. Civil Air Patrol (shameless plug) has HF and VHF radios, including repeaters that can be mounted in aircraft. (Others may be mounted in other places. In SC, they're on SCETV's towers- I'm not sure if the same would be true with NPTV in Nebraska.) The Salvation Army has a radio network too (SATERN). REACT operates on CB Channel 9.

While the EMP may damage a lot of radios, if they are up and running, they could make a big difference in or after a disaster.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amateur_Radio_Emergency_Service
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Amateur_Civil_Emergency_Service
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Auxiliary_Radio_System
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SATERN
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Emergency_Associated_Communication_Teams
 
I will once again repeat myself, but the radioactivity released by a H bomb cannot be compard to the radioactivity released following the Chernobyl incident.

The amount of radiation released by Chernobyl is yet disputed, but I saw 150 million curies mentioned frequently. That's a lot of radioactivity.

Conversely, in the documentary Defense of The United States, there is a discussion of a hypothetical 15MT ground burst at Offutt AFB in Omaha. The estimate was that such a blast - a single weapon - would release one trillion curies, and that single blast would contaminate a goodly part of the Midwest.

Then add in all the blasts to dig out the missile silos in western Nebraska/Wyoming/Colorado area, and the missile fields in Montana, North and South Dakota, Kansas, and Missouri, and you've got massive contamination over a huge area.

The fallout from the BRAVO test blast at Bikini Atoll in 1954 (a single 15MT ground burst) was lethal at a range of 200 miles.
 
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Land Of Flatwater: A Life In A Day Of World War III

On the run in West Germany February 18, 1984 0800 ZULU

Running. Tony Freeman was always good at it. On the track. On a football field. Didn't matter.

This was not the running he wanted to do. He was running for his life.

Everywhere was explosions and chaos. The early morning sunrise competed flashes of high explosives and orange fire. The streaking lights of air-to-air missiles added highlights to the sky and the clouds.

It would be a beautiful mosaic, if it didn't involve death and destruction.

Welcome to World War III.

"Retreat to sector 2-4 Delta. Thunder strike incoming! Thunder strike incoming!"

Tony was gunning the M1 like it was a 442 with a Hurst shifter. Scrambling to stay ahead of the T-72s they were fighting and the A-10s and helicopter gunships waiting to barrage the Soviet advance..

"INCOMING!!!!!!"

The Thunderbolts swooped in and blasted a lot of Soviet armor. But no one was celebrating. You can't run and celebrate at the same time.

"Turn turret 45 degrees," the Tank Commander said. "Vector is set.....FIRE!

The barrel exhales the shell. The shell flies...and impacts a T-72. The damage was enough to stop the Soviet tank, but as was the case all day, there would be two more coming behind.

"Did we get him," Tony asked.

"I don't miss, son. You know that," the Okie answered.

They wound there was through the forrests and back roads. Anything to shake the pursuing armor on the ground and the pursuing Su-25s in the air.

"Froggies are a'courtin'," the radio crackled. "Be alert."

The M1 wound its way into some deep natural cover. With camouflage , the tank would be tougher to spot from the air. The column spread out amongst the German forests."

"All Yankees, execute buzzsaw on contact,"

"Buzzsaw?" the Radioman asked.

"Hitting them from where they don't expect it," the Tank Commander said. "All directions. We're on the flank, so we shoot toward the middle. Crossing paths of fire."

The stood waiting as they heard the explosions in the distance. Jet engines
roaring overhead. The telegraphed tapping of M-16s clashing with the constant ping of AK-47s. The chopping hum of helicopter rotors. This was the soundtrack of the war.


The noises drew closer with each minute. Heart rates accelerated. Mouths dry with tension. .

"WE HAVE CONTACT IN SECTOR, DIVISION SIZED!"

More shells erupt from the gun barrel. Anti-tank weapons launch across trenches of the defensive line. The Soviets strike in numbers..

"LET 'EM FLY!!!" the Tank Commander roared.

Whooooooooop! BOOOOOOOOOOM!

American tanks and American soldiers sent their message. We're not running again.

"At this hour. Soviet troops continue to mount a heavy offensive push through West Germany. The initial phases of the attack started within 45 minutes after the end of the Soviet ultimatum to NATO last night. Currently Warsaw Pact forces are engaged in heavy fighting from Scandinavia to as far south as Trieste.

1235 ZULU near Kirchzell, West Germany

The crossing shell gambit continued to hold the Soviets.]

"GOT ANOTHER ONE!" Okie said. As another T-72 was left smoking.

The American tank columns formed a web in the woods, ensnaring Soviets tanks and artillery that was starting to shade to the south. The American retreat and regroup led to the Soviets showing their hand. Their forces were running toward the south toward Stuttgart.

"All forces..pursuit heading south. AIR COVER ENROUTE!!!"

"Alright," Tony yelped. "Let's dance Red bitches!!!"

The remnants of TAILBACK mixed in with remaining French forces to regroup and harass the Soviets. They stalked them and tracked them for the next hour, with reinforcement from the rear.

Stay to current heading. Additional groups will meet prior. Expect contact in force...over"

"All Yankees around grid 3-5-, Whiskey X-Ray set up picket fence.. All outside of the grid point, maintain flanking positions. Surround and attack on sight. WATCHTOWER, out..."

Yankee 3-1 was heading south. Slowly grinding through the woods. "Watchtower," the Tank Commander whispered in his West Virginia twang, "Boys, we have eyes up there."

The Radioman grinned, "AWACS!"

"Exactly," the Commander said. "First break we've caught all day. Nebraska, southwest heading. We are going to shade back then loop toward that grid point hard. Backup fire.

"I hear you boss," Tony said. "How soon do you think we could get rearmed and refueled. We will be low on both soon."

"L.A. go to a secure channel and buzz that AWACS"

The Radioman got to work, "Yankee 3-1 to Watchtower, request nearest grocery store....over?"

No response.

"I say again, Yankee 3-1 to Watchtower....request nearest grocery store...over?"

The radio responded...."WATCHTOWER to Yankee 3-1...what is present heading and location..

"heading 186 mark 2,4 Golf....over..."

"Location confirmed," the voice from the AWACS. "Maintain present heading 24 clicks to the QuickMart. Drop will be there.....WATCHTOWER out."

"QuickMart?" the Okie Gunner said. "What the hell."

"Helicopter drop," Tony answered while maneuvering the tank across a narrow trench. "And hopefully we won't be alone."


QUICKMART SITE -- 1503 ZULU

The site was clearing surround and obscured by trees but just enough room for a supply chopper to sneak in ammo. And a couple of fuel trucks to refuel maybe a dozen waiting tanks. It was a small operation..."Small" being relative term. After all, this is the biggest projection of military power Germany has seen in 40 years...and this projection makes World War II look like a spat on a school playground.

"As Yankee 3-1 was getting refueled and repaired...massive coded traffic came in. New orders."

"New playbook coming in," the TC said, "It seems they are reorganizing. hq confirms we are to ride with this group and restructure, we will head back east and reinforce the line they are setting up around....Leingarten.."

Tony knew where that was, "The Soviets are making a run toward Stuttgart. They must be reinforcing something. But would we be late to the party. And the rate the Russians we're moving they are probably will ahead."

"WATCHTOWER and HQ confirm that the Russians have slowed or stopped," the TC said. "Think about this soldier. They have to rearm, refuel and take a pee just like we do. The 'Red Team' are not machines. They put their pants on one leg at a time just like we do."

"But they were going like hell to the west. Straight west. This could be some kind of trap, sir," Tony said.

"Or," the TC said. "This could be an opportunity for us. They made two diversions one north and one south. They could march on to Heidelberg or Mannheim. But why not? They needed the manpower towards the main thrusts. Frankfurt. Fulda Gap. Stuttgart. Somehow, my Nebraska friend, even with all the hit-and-run we've had to do...We've put them behind schedule."

The TC grinned through blood sweat and toil. "Gentlemen, we may down. We aren't out."

They've been at constant fight and flight for over 13 hours now. They've seen and heard the loss. Screams through radios. Screams and barking order becoming universal languages.

And here they sit, wrapped in a cocoon of heavy metal. A halftime in the biggest contest of their lives.

"Yankee 3-1, this is Badger 1-5...over.."

"Yankee 3-1 responding, Badger 1-5."

"I know that call sign...TAILBACK group right?"

"Affirmative, Badger 1-5."

"You TAILBACK did a helluva job! I'm the point tank for the reorg...HQ just sent it down the pipe. You have the new playbook?

"Just received. We're reinforcing a position just south of here."

"Good to see you didn't miss the staff meeting, doctor," Badger 1-5's TC replied. "HQ wants to relieve some pressure on Stuttgart. The French garrison there is holding strong. Must be a different batch of Frenchies from the one I saw bugging out along the main motor route."

"What happened 1-5?"

"You didn't hear?" the other tank commander responded. "They just plowed over civilians in their cars trying to get the hell on out of here. Just ran them over like a monster truck."

"My God," Tony thought.

"What have you heard about Fulda?"

Badger 1-5 answered, "The Reds hit the Wall Of Voodoo, from what I hear.. So far, stopped them cold at the Gap. Command is throwing everything but the kitchen sink at them. There's just so goddamned many of them!"

"I hope command doesn't throw the kitchen sink at them," the TC was hoping Badger got the underlying message...Badger did.

"3-1," Badger said. "That's still in command's back pocket. All armored, listened up. We got fuel, firecrackers and chow. Crank 'em up. Punch the clock. Let's go to work.

I feel a hot wind on my shoulder
And the touch of a world that is older
I turn the switch and check the number
I leave it on when in bed I slumber
I hear the rhythms of the music
I buy the product and never use it
I hear the talking of the DJ
Can't understand just what does he say?

to be continued....later today :)
 
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"American F1 champ in my lifetime and a World Cup-winning USA team in my lifetime (I know the last two are LONG SHOTS).

Falk, I would be very happy just to have high school football make a comeback in this timeline :)

I can hear the sirens in the distance with every keystroke they get closer and closer..
 

Falkenburg

Monthly Donor
Falk, I would be very happy just to have high school football make a comeback in this timeline :)

I can hear the sirens in the distance with every keystroke they get closer and closer..

That at least would seem highly probable. ;)

High School Football could plausibly become the major sport.

The social and morale benefits would be of vital importance Post Exchange.
Certainly worth the resources that might be required.

Such events would also be an ideal way for an administration to reach the general public, in the absence of traditional media.

Falkenburg
 

John Farson

Banned
Chipperback, will you be covering the fateful moment when the US Colonel fires the first nuke and unleashes Pandora's Box?
 
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