Irritating clichés about Pre-1900 AH

[Revolutionary Todyo]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FlatWhat





"What." You've just been witness to something so bizarre, so eye-crossingly stupid (or possibly so mind-crushingly terrifying as to put you beyond the capacity for rational thought), that your brain no longer has the cognitive faculties to put together a more articulate response.

• Think of it this way. You were trying to say "WTF" with the emphasis on "F", but your brain short-circuited before getting to "The".

That's my response to your post.

Oh, and to this:



"Its incredibly hard, will probably fail much as OTL, and so it does fail much like OTL." is not up there with...well, as you put it "everyone being under the impression that the Unionists are ten times as fanatical as the average Japanese pilot in 1944 and will automatically slaughter every Catholic in Ulster and then completely repulse any Free State/Republican/IRA attack on Northern Ireland should a united Ireland be attempted.".

I'm sorry but I have literally no idea what you are getting at.
A united Ireland can be quite hard to achieve in a TL (depending on the POD), and because of that few people won't usually attempt it.
As I said, "everyone being under the impression that the Unionists are ten times as fanatical as the average Japanese pilot in 1944 and will automatically slaughter every Catholic in Ulster and then completely repulse any Free State/Republican/IRA attack on Northern Ireland should a united Ireland be attempted."

To put it simply, it's hard for reasons X,Y, and Z. As such, no one really tries to do it and they usually come up with an overexaggerated excuse for why they're not doing it.

I don't know what the TV tropes thing is in aid of, I suppose you're trying to be clever or something.

My POD is in 1046 but alright.

I like.

 

[Elfwine]

I'm sorry but I have literally no idea what you are getting at.
A united Ireland can be quite hard to achieve in a TL (depending on the POD), and because of that few people won't usually attempt it.
As I said, "everyone being under the impression that the Unionists are ten times as fanatical as the average Japanese pilot in 1944 and will automatically slaughter every Catholic in Ulster and then completely repulse any Free State/Republican/IRA attack on Northern Ireland should a united Ireland be attempted."

"Incredibly hard so TL writers don't attempt to do something that is incredibly hard' is NOT the same as "everyone being under the impression that the Unionists are ten times as fanatical as the average Japanese pilot". You don't see a lot of attempts to have the HRE unite post-1250 either.

This is like complaining in the post-1900 forum that no one makes Poland a great power because they're under the impression that the Romanovs, Habsburgs, and Hohenzollerns will go on forever but worse.

To put it simply, it's hard for reasons X,Y, and Z. As such, no one really tries to do it and they usually come up with an overexaggerated excuse for why they're not doing it.

I don't know what the TV tropes thing is in aid of, I suppose you're trying to be clever or something.

No, I'm just explaining what my "What." meant. Namely, that your post is so bizarre and heading into "eye crossingly stupid" that I don't know what to say to it.

The only "overexaggerated" in regards to the subject I've seen is your portrayal of why its not done, not something anyone writing a timeline where like OTL attempts fail is arguing or even close to something like that.

 

[Revolutionary Todyo]

"Incredibly hard so people don't attempt to do something that is incredibly hard' is NOT the same as "everyone being under the impression that the Unionists are ten times as fanatical as the average Japanese pilot".

Look that part is getting out of hand, I was overexaggerting something to try and be funny.
What I meant was that when it comes to a united Ireland, people put too much emphasis on the commitment of Ulster Unionists to preventing Home Rule.
And yes, it's hard so people don't usually attempt it.

This is like complaining in the post-1900 forum that no one makes Poland a great power because they assume that the Romanovs, Habsburgs, and Hohenzollerns will go on forever.

No it's not, how did you even come to that conclusion?

No, I'm just explaining what my "What." meant. Namely, that your post is so bizarre and heading into "eye crossingly stupid" that I don't know what to say to it.

Then why did you even reply to it?

Something incredibly hard and unlikely being common would be an irritating cliche, the opposite is...well, respect for plausibility.

Actually, why am I even saying it's incredibly hard? It gets increasingly hard post-1798, but before then it's not so difficult.
And as I say, post-1798 there are a few PODs that would work. It'd be difficult, but not impossible.
Therefore I find it an irritating, sometimes even lazy cliche.

 

[Orko]

The ERE MUST survive and can never fall to the Ottomans or any other Turks. If the POD is after 1453, then the Ottoman conquests are magically undone by the brave westerners who - out of pure kindness of heart - give the entire Balkans and Asia Minor to the Palaiologan dynasty.

 

[Pichuscrat]

What Cliche do I hate? How if one man lands in a new area, continent, or whatever, it automatically becomes a colony of whatever nation the man is from. Even if the man dies there, as long as they discover the land, their nation WILL colonize it eventually.

Also don't like Ameriwanks, infamous ___screws, like Spainscrews, and umm... idk some big event happening where Europe is unified by something (not something like Belgium and Luxembourg, were talking all of Western Europe), or a Muslim part of Europe (excluding anything Iberian or Ottoman) lasting for a LONG period of time.

 

[Elfwine]

Look that part is getting out of hand, I was overexaggerting something to try and be funny.
What I meant was that when it comes to a united Ireland, people put too much emphasis on the commitment of Ulster Unionists to preventing Home Rule.
And yes, it's hard so people don't usually attempt it.

Its not really funny to exaggerate something to the point no one gets it.

And the Ulster unionists succeeded, despite no lack of efforts by their opponents. That sounds - while hardly "inevitable" - certainly something that shouldn't be regarded as a minor nuisance.

No it's not, how did you even come to that conclusion?

Because of your ridiculously over the top exaggeration?

Then why did you even reply to it?

To point out what you said makes no sense?

Actually, why am I even saying it's incredibly hard? It gets increasingly hard post-1798, but before then it's so difficult.
And as I say, post-1798 there are a few PODs that would work. It'd be difficult, but not impossible.
Therefore I find it an irritating, sometimes even lazy cliche.

No more than any other "it was hard OTL, it didn't work OTL, and nothing has changed that would make it easier so it fails TTL".

There may be a few PODs that would work, but that doesn't mean that it not working is lazy or unjustified by the difficulty facing anyone who would attempt to succeed in those circumstances.

Some people with some ideas of alt-history (the Confederacy, the HRE, the ERE after 1300) seem to want to have their favored thing work whether it would be hard or not. I'm not targeting this at you specifically, but your comments reminded me of that cliche. If the author wants it, the forces in the way are underestimated.

The ERE MUST survive and can never fall to the Ottomans or any other Turks. If the POD is after 1453, then the Ottoman conquests are magically undone by the brave westerners who - out of pure kindness of heart - give the entire Balkans and Asia Minor to the Palaiologan dynasty.

I've a question. Given that the entire concept of alternate history is exploring alternate outcomes, and the Byzantines not falling to the Turks would have been entirely possible, what's wrong with ERE Survives timelines?

Not touching the post-1453 stuff. 1453 the year has its own minor cliche "What if somehow the Ottomans lose can the Byzantines still win?"

Minor because while its fairly persistent, its not particularly popular.

 

[Petike]

Nothing ever happens is South America, Africa, etc.

But... Bizzarely, nothing ever happens in Switzerland either - since 99,9 % of all TLs just turn it into an unchanging and uninvadable Space Filling Statelet. It kind of just exists in its own separate pocket universe, even though every AH map of Europe will trick you into thinking it actually might have some ties to historical processes, whether positive, negative or neutral. And don't you ever dare to redraw its sacred unchanging borders - that's a major no-no !!! ;-)

It was actually kind of refreshing seeing the Geneva region becoming a part of France in Zach's Napoleonic TL.

 

[Beedok]

Switzerland - It kind of just exists in its own separate pocket universe.

That explains the neutrinos.

 

[Enigmajones]

Surviving Monarchist Remnant in North France. Even if the most Royalist Part of France was the South.

 

[Winston Smith]

Nothing ever happens is South America, Africa, etc.

But... Bizzarely, nothing ever happens in Switzerland either - since 99,9 % of all TLs just turn it into an unchanging and uninvadable Space Filling Statelet. It kind of just exists in its own separate pocket universe, even though every AH map of Europe will trick you into thinking it actually might have some ties to historical processes, whether positive, negative or neutral. And don't you ever dare to redraw its sacred unchanging borders - that's a major no-no !!! ;-)

It was actually kind of refreshing seeing the Geneva region becoming a part of France in Zach's Napoleonic TL.

Personally, I'm waiting to see a TL where Switzerland is divided up between it's neighbours.

Woo! My Thousandth post! I'm a Valued Contibuter!

 

[Beedok]

Personally, I'm waiting to see a TL where Switzerland is divided up between it's neighbours.

Woo! My Thousandth post! I'm a Valued Contibuter!

Well France and Italy took some bites out of it in my current TL, but the Germans didn't get their part.

 

[Saepe Fidelis]

Surviving Monarchist Remnant in North France. Even if the most Royalist Part of France was the South.

I believe that the South of Frane was historically the most Radical until the 1950s when the French Algerians all fled to European France and settled in the South, bringing with them their conservative politics, thus 'flipping' the south politically. I may be wrong though.

Oh, and I suppose my irritating pre-1900 cliche would be that whenever Africa is partitioned (and it ALWAYS is) the Congo region is always colonised by some second-rate power like Denmark or Hanover or something, as per OTL, when in fact both French and Portuguese (if you don't count Portugal as second-rate...it had its own established colonies in the region) had interests in the region.

 

[Enigmajones]

I believe that the South of Frane was historically the most Radical until the 1950s when the French Algerians all fled to European France and settled in the South, bringing with them their conservative politics, thus 'flipping' the south politically. I may be wrong though.

Well I don't know about the south of Frane, but in the south of France, they were pretty firmly pro Monarchy. Well at least in Toulon.

 

[9 Fanged Hummingbird]

Just curious, but have there ever been TLs involving people other than Europeans or Chinese or Malians colonizing people? Kinda strange that those are the only ones you ever see. Was kinda thinking about having in my TL Maya sailors reach Polynesia, even if that is really crazy.

 

[Enigmajones]

Just curious, but have there ever been TLs involving people other than Europeans or Chinese or Malians colonizing people? Kinda strange that those are the only ones you ever see. Was kinda thinking about having in my TL Maya sailors reach Polynesia, even if that is really crazy.

Go for it. I once did a bare bones TL, where the Incans conquer Polynesia.

 

[wolf_brother]

Go for it. I once did a bare bones TL, where the Incans conquer Polynesia.

Now that would be very interesting.

 

[Enigmajones]

Now that would be very interesting.

If only I could find it.

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

Go for it. I once did a bare bones TL, where the Incans conquer Polynesia.

Tell me where is it. Or I shall be forced to torture you for the link.

 

[Jasen777]

Personally, I'm waiting to see a TL where Switzerland is divided up between it's neighbours.

France took the French speaking area and the rest was incorporated into the H.R.E. in my no Luther timeline.

 

[Enigmajones]

Tell me where is it. Or I shall be forced to torture you for the link.

Alright. I'll start working on it again. I guess