TL-191: Filling the Gaps

bguy

Donor
About Jeb Stuart Jr. - I thought so too. Originally, I wanted another office in charge for the war, with Jeb taking over afterwards, but I checked the HT wiki, and they seem to think he was in charge the whole time. I'm open to persuasion here.

Well in GW:AF it just refers to Stuart being at the War Department without any direct mention of his role. That means he certainly could be the Chief of the General Staff, but it would also be possible for him to be the Deputy Chief or perhaps the Military Advisor to the President (assuming the Confederates kept that as a seperate position from their General-In-Chief.) Does anyone know how many Generals were on the British Imperial General Staff at that time? I imagine the Confederates modelled their General Staff pretty closely after the British, but I have no idea what the composition of the IGS was.

For what its worth the first mention of Stuart at the War Department didn't occur until Potter tried to investigate Pompey (which happened sometime in 1915), so theoretically Stuart could have started the war in a field position somewhere and then later have been moved to the War Department. Does the HT wiki have any cite for why they believe he was in charge the whole time?

The other complicating factor about Stuart is that in the conversation between Featherston and Stuart in The Victorious Opposition, Featherston implies they haven't spoken since their conversation in 1922. That conversation took place in 1936 by which point Featherston had already been President for over 2 years. Could he realistically have gone 2 years as President without having ever spoken to his Chief of General Staff? (Though frankly that whole part of the story never made sense to me. Given how much Stuart loathed Featherston, why wouldn't he have put in his retirement papers just as soon as Jake was elected?)
 
I love the John Hay biography, but I think you should include something about how he went against Lincoln, his former mentor, and did not go toward the Socialist Party. And I think it makes sense that Stuart didn't resign when Featherston was elected; he was a patriot who only lived to be in the military, and he underestimated Featherston (as far as he knew, Featherston would only be in office 6 years). It's mentioned that Jake didn't really touch the military until firing Stuart, but the whole not talking to his Chief of the General Staff is a good question.

P.S. Go ahead and take your time with Russia :) And I love those military maps!!!!!! But I do think it would make sense to split the 4th Army into 3 different armies: One going after Winnipeg, one going after Toronto, and one invading Quebec and Nova Scotia. I think you would need an army in and of itself to attack Winnipeg.
 
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I was just thinking, and something really confused me. It was Custer's First Army that captured Nashville, Tennessee in the Great War. Now, it would seem logical for Nashville to be taken by the Second Army under Pershing, but it is still possible for Nashville to fall under Custer's area of coordination. But many times, Custer says how the First Army will eventually capture Chattanooga, Tennessee. Now, I think we can all agree that Chattanooga is WAY out of Custer's jurisdiction, no matter how you draw the lines of where the armies are. It is possible that Custer, being Custer, was merely gloating about something impossible, and these claims can easily be dismissed. But after Nashville falls, Abner Dowling (much more logical and realistic than Custer) realizes that after Murfreesboro is captured, Chattanooga might fall after all. Not to mention that Murfreesboro would most likely fall under Pershing's path too. I have no idea what to make of this, and it seems to me that Turtledove has Custer in charge of capturing all of Tennessee! :confused: My head hurts......
 
I'm not actually sure where the HT wiki got the idea that Stuart was Chief of Staff during the Great War - bguy's descriptions match my recollection. I used to think that the idea of not firing Stuart until 1936 was a little weird, but I've warmed to it. Not talking at all to the Chief of Staff is much harder to explain away, but perhaps he communicated by letter or telegram only, or through the Secretary of War or his personal aides and advisors.

I honestly thought that I had included Lincoln's meeting with top Republicans in the Hay bio. I'll fix that, weird oversight.

I imagined Fourth Army's situation to be similar to that of the Army of Texas - corps-sized formations fighting on dispersed fronts. I'm explaining the failure to capture Winnipeg for three years as the US not using an entire army against it.

We know from one of the books that Second and Third Armies were fighting in Kentucky along with the First Army, and that First Army was (probably) furthest west. So yeah, it doesn't make any sense at all for Custer to be talking about a drive on Chattanooga. More than likely, Ht had no grand strategic design. But, in the interests of logic, maybe the ultimate US war plan was for the armies invading Kentucky to make a giant wheel towards the southeast, taking Nashville, Chattanooga, and then Atlanta. (Obviously, the people writing these plans had little idea what trenches, barbed wire, and machine guns could do.) In other words, the campaigns undertaken by the Army of the Tennessee during 1863-1864, or Morrell's campaign in GWII. EDIT: I dredged some town names from Dowling's POV - Vienna IL, Madisonville, KY, and Clarksville, TN. Those were three prominent stops on the road to Nashville. I chained them together in Google maps, and it's definitely a pronounced southeastern diagonal through KY and TN.
 
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Wolfpaw

Banned
John Hay (1838-1905)
He spent the rest of the war in Washington at the State Department, now run by his old senior partner, John Logan. When it became clear to Blaine that the US could not hope to resist the Confederates, British, and French, it fell to Hay to seek an armistice. It was he who negotiated the Hay-Morgan Treaty ending the war on Confederate terms.
IIRC, the US government abandoned Washington almost immediately after the outbreak of the SMW. Remember how Schlieffen was moved to a consulate above a sausage-factory in Philadelphia?

That is something I'd like to hear more about: the transfer of the capital from Washington to Philadelphia.
 
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IIRC, the US government abandoned Washington almost immediately after the outbreak of the SMW. Remember how Schlieffen was moved to a consulate above a sausage-factory in Philadelphia?

That is something I'd like to hear more about: the transfer of the capital from Washington to Philadelphia.

Good idea.
 
Okay, oops. Upton Sinclair and Thomas Dewey were noted to be the youngest men to be elected to the White House, both at 42. Thomas Bayard Jr. was 40 in 1868. So, on that note, I'm thinking of replacing him with his father, James Bayard. Any objections? He would have been 69 in 1868.

The other option is Thomas Hendricks, who's also been mentioned here and there, and would need to be be replaced - probably by Thomas Bayard, making it an easy solution.
 
Revised

Members of the Joint Committee on the Conduct of the War

77th Congress 1941-1943

Senate:

George Norris (S-NE)*
Robert Wagner (S-NY)
A. Dennis Palmer (S-PA)
Glen Taylor (S-ID)
Robert Taft (D-OH)**
Charles McNary (D-OR)
Harry Truman (D-MO)
Robert Vandenberg (R-MI)

House:

Flora Blackford (S-NY)
James Curley (S-MA)
Floyd Olson (S-MN)
Howard Douglas (S-IL)***
Foster Stearns (D-NH)
Charles Halleck (D-IN)
Karl Mundt (D-DA)***
Gerald Nye (R-IA)

78th Congress 1943-1945

Senate:


Robert Wagner (S-NY)
A. Dennis Palmer (S-PA)
Glen Taylor (S-ID)
Sheridan Downey (S-CA)
Charles McNary (D-OR)
Harry Truman (D-MO)
Millard Tydings (D-MD)
Robert Vandenberg (R-MI)

House:

Flora Blackford (S-NY)
Floyd Olson (S-MN)
James Curley (S-MA)
Adlai Stevenson III (S-IL)
Foster Stearns (D-NH)
Burton Wheeler (D-NV)
Charles Halleck (D-IN)
Gerald Nye (R-IA)

* Retired
** Died in office
*** Defeated
 
I guess a wheel maneuver towards Georgia would make sense....but now that you mention it, splitting the Fourth Army would seem right in why the Canadian cities didn't fall so quickly. I realize it makes almost no sense having J.E.B. Stuart Jr. as Chief of the General Staff, but I can't really imagine him as anything else. And besides, if the son of a War of Secession hero and a Second Mexican War martyr who was also personally a boy wonder in the Second Mexican War isn't Chief of the General Staff, who is???:confused:
 
I thought we'd removed all references to Stuart Jr. as Chief of the General Staff at the wiki long ago. Sorry about that.
 
History of Sequoyah

The history of America's natives is a long and sad; perhaps no episode more so than the trail of tears. In the 1830s the US president Andrew Jackson evicted the Five Civilized Tribes (Cherokee, Creek, Choctaw, Chickasaw, and Seminole) from the southeast, forcing to walk to the Indian territory, north of Texas. Several thousand men, women, and children died along the way.

For a time they were permitted to live in relative seclusion, but the steady westward march of the American frontier threatened their new home. White settlers pouring into Kansas and Nebraska eyed the lands to the south greedily.

When the War of Secession erupted, the Indian leaders, remembering Jackson, eagerly signed treaties of alliance with the new Confederate government and joined its cause. The Cherokee general Stand Watie became the most prominent among them, becoming chief of his nation when the pro-Union incumbent fled in 1862. While Camp Hill and Corinth ended major combat east of the Mississippi, fighting in the West continued for some months in 1863. In May of that year, a combined force under Watie and Edmund Kirby Smith defeated a larger Union force at Fort Gibson, securing the Indian Territory for the Confederacy. (Similar efforts to seize the so-called Arizona Territory for the South failed.)

Under the Confederates, the Indian Territory maintained a unique status. Richmond kept it closed to white settlement, and did not apppoint a governor. Instead, each of the five nations was responsible for keeping law and order within its borders. (Members of other Indian tribes living within the territory, such as Kiowas and Comanches, did not receive such status, and had to live on land governed by one of the Five Tribes.)

The Confederates acceded to such an arrangement because Indian warriors made willing guerrillas, often traveling into Kansas and Missouri to bushwhack. In turn, the US encouraged Indians living in the North to retaliate, keeping this part of the west in turmoil into the 20th century.

While pressure to open the Territory eased, it never entirely subsided. The rapid growth of the petroleum industry there in the late 1890s and early 1900s only accelerated the problem. Concerned that the government would grant odrilling rights to outside oil companies, the often fractious Tribes banded together and petitioned Congress for statehood beginning in the 1896. This first proposal was rejected, and the Tribes undertook to reorganize the government to better fit with the modern conception of a state. A territorial governor, Ned Christie, was elected, and a statewide legislature organized. (Because none of the tribes would agree to place the state capital on the land of a rival, they compromised for providing that the governor and legislature would ride the circuit, so to speak, sitting in each of the five county seats in turn.) The new Radical Liberal party was supportive of statehood, and enough Whigs joined on to make Sequoyah (a Cherokee who had virtually eliminated illiteracy in the Five Civilized Tribes during the early 19th century) a state in 1902. Conveniently, it sent five Representatives to Congress, one for each Tribe. It was the last state admitted to the Confederacy.

sequoyah3.jpg


Sequoyah, like Sonora, Chihuahua, Louisiana, and Cuba, all states that differed from the Confederate mainstream, became Radical Liberal strongholds. In the three presidential elections it participated in, Sequoyah voted for the Rad Lib nominee each time. The Whig party tended to be strongest in the white minority, and the Cherokee, under whose land the lion's share of the oil was located.

During the Great War, Sequoyah (or at least its oil) was a priority target of the United States Army. Confederate planners, unfortunately for its residents, did not take the state as seriously - only the 1st Sequoyah regiment was stattioned there permanently, along with the tribal militias, and during mobilization a single reserve division was rushed to the front. Unsurprisingly, the US Army maintained steady progress there, where the endless, flat terrain, prevented the outnumbered Confederates from building strong defensive lines. By the end of 1916, the US had pushed all the way to the Red River, the border with the Texas.

In 1918, Sequoyah was formally transferred to the United States. But unlike Kentucky and the new state of Houston, it was not given membership in the US, and Philadelphia lifted the ban on white settlement. US citizens who agreed to move to the Sequoyah territory were paid a stipend for a number of months. Due to resistance from the native population, the Army was constantly kept on hand. Martial law was declared on several occasions - in 1918-1919, 1925-1926, 1930-1931, and off and on from 1934 onwards. This is a much better record than Utah, which was under martial law continuously.

Pursuant to the Richmond Agreement between Al Smith and Jake Featherston, Sequoyah, along with Kentucky and Houston, held a plebiscite on returning to the US in 1941. Unlike those two states, it voted to remain in the US, no doubt due to immigration from the north. When Jake Featherston nevertheless launched the Second Great War in North America a few months later, Sequoyah was not a major front. Instead, Confederate guerrillas bushwhacked American troops and sabotaged the oil fields, leading to indiscriminate resprisals from the US Army.

War deaths and emigration have drastically shrunk the prewar population. In the mid 1940s the US deported several thousand residents, mostly American Indians. This "Second Trail of Tears" received much less notice than the exile of several thousand Mormons to Molokai in the Sandwich Islands. Most of the Indians have moved to the Southern territories or the Empire of Mexico. Sequoyah, along with Haiti, has been proposed as a "homeland" for Negroes in North America.

The current territorial governor is Francis Sayre, a former professor of President Dewey at Harvard Law. The local Army contingent is commanded by Joseph McNarney.
 
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bguy

Donor
The Confederate army commanders list has been edited accordingly.

Looks good. Only one question. What is the difference between Deputy Chief of Staff and Adjutant General? Is the Deputy COS responsible for operations while the Adjutant General handles administration, training and procurement?

Also, are you planning on doing similar lists for naval commanders? Any chance for a listing for total number of dreadnoughts and battle cruisers per power?
 
Looks good. Only one question. What is the difference between Deputy Chief of Staff and Adjutant General? Is the Deputy COS responsible for operations while the Adjutant General handles administration, training and procurement?

Also, are you planning on doing similar lists for naval commanders? Any chance for a listing for total number of dreadnoughts and battle cruisers per power?

You have it about right. In the Civil War, Samuel Cooper was basically an administrator, but he also held the post of Inspector General. I'm positing that this aspect of the role generally became more and more important. The biggest difference in 191 between the Confederate Army AG and the United States Army IG is that the former was responsible to the Chief of Staff and his Deputy, while the IG was independent and reported directly to the Secretary of War - more of an ombudsman.

The Chief of Staff in both nations was a big picture post, while the Deputy focused on day-to-day.

As for the navies - a list of commanders I can do, but tonnage and that sort of thing may be out of my depth until I do more research.
 
Did the books ever actually confirm the existence of a Confederate general staff? The "War Department" was prominent, and we constantly heard from the US General Staff, but I'm not sure if the Confederates ever formally adopted the system.
 
Did the books ever actually confirm the existence of a Confederate general staff? The "War Department" was prominent, and we constantly heard from the US General Staff, but I'm not sure if the Confederates ever formally adopted the system.

In TVO, HT explicitly tells us that Stuart resigned from the General Staff. Pg. 189 of the HC.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
What the hell...they used a version of that shitty old Oakie photo :confused:

I don't picture Jake Featherston to look like that at all.

Then again, nowhere does it say that it's a picture of JF....
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Well who else could it be??? :mad:
I dunno. But since he doesn't look at all like what HT describes Featherston as looking like, I'm not going to just assume it's him.

They probably just took that old Oakie photo, touched it up a bit, slapped it over a Confederate Flag and said, "Eh. That'll work."
 
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