TL-191: Filling the Gaps

Featherston said that Henderson FitzBelmont was (well, looked) too young to have served during the Great War.
 
Featherston said that Henderson FitzBelmont was (well, looked) too young to have served during the Great War.

He also had gray hair in 1941, according to his first meeting with Featherston; for him to be too young to have served in 1914-1917, he would need to be no more than forty that year.

But I think the younger he dies, the more deliciously suspicious it is, so we'll age him down by five years and move him to a civilian capacity.
 
I wouldn't mind seeing the evoluton of Imperial German Panzerkorps. As well Guderian would be great.

I also agree on seeing the rise of Churchill, the zealous nationalist he is.

I simply have a greater fascination with the European end of the Great War and Second Great War, simply because we only getting fleeting glances at it.

Oh heres an American I would like to see: Eisenhower, I don't remember him popping up once, and although I admit he was more of a staff officer then combat officer, I'm surprised he didn't end up on the Confederate General Staff or something

I've mentioned Guderian elsewhere - he, Todt, Canaris, Lettow-Vorbeck, Manstein, and von Fritsch are all going to figure heavily in the European war, when I finally get to it.
 
There might be another thread for this, but has anyone ever tried to do a TL that continued TL-191 up to the present day? I think it would be really interesting to speculate on where this world goes and how it develops analogously to the OTL.

I might extend this one to post-1945; I read the first few pages of David's TL, and he and I have very different ideas on where to take 191.
 
Short announcement:

Since I post only when I have time, which isn't often, I'm okay with others posting entries. I don't consider myself bound by anything else that's written here, however. If you really want to write something on 191 that doesn't fit what I have in this thread, you should probably start working on your own TL. I'll read it.

Try to follow the rules I've laid down for myself:

1) Don't contradict the text...
2) ...unless it's absolutely clear that Turtledove made a mistake. Even then, butterfly things away as much as you can.
3) Parallelism is preferred - it's not "academic" alternate history, but this is an HT tribute, so I'm sticking with his style.
4) No ASB, and try to keep historical personalities as close to the real thing as possible
5) Include as few fictional characters as you can - it's one thing for a novelist to do so, but it's less fun for nerds like us to read about President Jefferson Price Daniels when you can throw in Upton Sinclair or Alfred Mahan.
 
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Now that I know this is kosher, reposting:

Hiram Ulysses Grant. 1822-1881.

Born in Point Pleasant, Ohio, Hiram Ulysses Grant was not an especially remarkable child. His parents did not pay him any too great mind, nor did most people in his hometown who called him "Useless" Grant. Grant went to West Point 21st in a class of 39, going on to serve in the First Mexican War. There he was instrumental in the victory of Chapultepec, one of the last times that the West Point class that went on to fight the War of Secession did so as members of one army.

In between the First Mexican War and the War of Secession Grant fell into disgrace on garrison duty and went into working at a tannery, a father of five children and seemingly obscure. Yet when the War of Secession started Grant secured a commission, in a move reminiscent of Theodore Roosevelt though as an authorized regiment whipping into shape a bunch of hooligans.

In independent command he displayed an initiative unseen in other War of Secession generals, moving immediately to secure Paducah in response to the first invasion of Kentucky by General Leonidas K. Polk. He followed this in turn with the twin victories of Forts Henry and Donelson. In the first an amphibious command had been won by the Navy without the necessity of the Army, but in the second Grant captured a Confederate army under General Simon B. Buckner which was the only instance where one army captured another in the War of Secession.

Unfortunately the Cheat Mountain phenomenon recurred again and credit for the victory at the time was given falsely to General Halleck. Grant re-assumed command of his army in time to plan a joint offensive in the direction of Corinth. This offensive, a popular subject of Might-Have-Been authors was met instead by a surprise Confederate attack led by General Albert Sidney Johnston.

Grant's victory in this battle made Johnston into the martyr of the Confederate cause. Again the evils of the Cheat Mountain phenomenon recurred and General Halleck became the General-in-chief of the US Army under whom the War of Secession was lost. Not only did Halleck set in motion the disastrous string of events from Second Bull Run to Camp Hill, he stripped the only undefeated general in the entirety of the war of most of his army.

Incredibly despite this, Grant still won two defensive victories at Second Corinth and Iuka against Confederate general Van Dorn, the only Confederate general with McClellan's legacy of being defeated despite superior numbers. Yet the Cheat Mountain phenomenon worked in favor ironically for the true victor there, who went on to preside over the US Army's defeat in the Second Mexican War while Grant died of drunkenness, obscure and in poverty in the USA while Johnston became a martyr in the CSA.

In the Redemption era between the Second Mexican War and the Great War, Grant, like John Brown, became a figure of an ideology nothing in the man's career indicated he would have followed. Too, it may be noted that treatment of Grant by the US Administrations during and after the War of Secession and the Second Mexican War goes a long way to explain the disastrous defeat in the second US-CS War.
 
US armed forces "points" system

From 1887 to 1914, a conscript or volunteer in the United States Army or Navy served for at least two years; a Marine served for three. Soldiers, sailors, and Marines were free to re-enlist of course, but the vast majority chose to return to civilian life.

During the Great War, both the War and Navy Departments announced that servicemen were in "for the duration," a move that was endorsed by Congress in early 1915. They would fight until the war was won, they were killed, or they were too wounded be too of any use. In 1917, the military immediately reverted to the previous system, and anyone who had been in service for more than the original enlistment period was immediately discharged.

When the Second Great War began, US military personnel were once again enlisted for the duration. But unlike thirty years earlier, there was no mass discharge in 1944, as the US needed to occupy not only Canada, but the much larger Confederacy. Most veterans were understandably dismayed - whereas the soldier vote in 1942 was roughly split, as far as anyone can tell, military voters went for Dewey over La Follette in 1944 by a margin of over fifteen points, contributing to the wartime President's landslide defeat (Dewey was the first candidate since TR in 1916 to receive a majority of the popular vote.) Civilians, while generally voting Democratic, were more supportive of the incumbent.

Ironically, by the time of the election the La Follette administration had already persuaded Congress to re-organize the system to allow for quicker, more orderly discharges. This was the famous "points" system:

10 points = Year of service
10 points = Purple Heart
10 points = Spouse or dependent child
10 points = Campaign ribbon or battle star
20 points = Bronze Star
30 points = Silver Star
40 points = Distinguished Service Cross
50 points = Medal of Honor
10 points = Year over the age of forty (lowered from fifty)

Once a serviceman reached 100 points, he was entitled to a discharge.

This system, once enacted, allowed for quick discharges for combat veterans, most of whom had several years in service, several campaign ribbons, and a Purple Heart. But soldiers drafted in 1944 or later could only watch as their points crawled upwards - the War Department created a campaign ribbon for occupation troops in 1945, but this was one of the few that the majority of them could expect to earn.

Sailors, too, had difficulty accumulating points, as they could not earn battle stars postwar, and were rarely awarded Purple Hearts. Recognizing this, the Navy Department used the authority granted by Congress to create new regulations, and allowed sailors and Marines to be awarded points on their yearly fitness report, subject to approval by an officer of the rank of captain or higher, up to a maximum of ten. The War Department did not adopt this policy late in 1945, when studies began to show that the average soldier then in service could expect his term of enlistment to last over five years - an average that was dragged down by those deaths, injuries, and dishonorable discharges.

Sociologists still debate whether the points system was related to upsurge in marriages and the spike in the birthrate seen during 1945-1950.
 
United States midterm elections, 1946

President Dewey was understandably proud of his short time in office. Cuba had been admitted to the United States on July 4, the first former Confederate state to meet the requirements of the "Integration" policy he had outlined in his first State of the Union speech. While its Congressional delegation tilted towards the Socialists, his party still held a heavy majority in the House, and was just a few seats short in the Senate. The removal of the remaining Mormon leadership to Molokai in the Sandwich Islands had been completed, and the plan to colonize the state and prepare it to be re-admitted as well was proceeding according to schedule.

The year before he had signed the Civil Rights Act of 1945, outlawing discrimination on the basis of race. The black laws had been swept off the books in the North, while in the South the Army was enforcing equality for the few million remaining Negroes at gunpoint. To be sure, bushwhackings and bombings still continued, and dozens of soldiers were being killed every week. But his advisors assured him that they were destroying diehard bands one by one, and that when the hard core of the resistance was wiped out, and the passive majority of the population would fall in line. And the Republic of Texas was proving to be a better ally than anyone who had been previously acquainted with a Texan would have believed - so much that Secretary of the Interior Symington was suggesting that they be allowed to absorb Houston State, Chihuahua and Sonora, so as to relive the US of the burden of occupying them - none of the three was on schedule to be integrated.

He had promised to balance the budget during the 1944 campaign, a promise which was proving difficult. The country would not stand to have the war taxes in place much longer, but to lower them too quickly would blast a hole in the budget bigger than the one in Philadelphia. While occupation was far less costly than total war, the military was still gobbling up the lion's share of federal spending. And the reconstruction projects throughout the South and in Ohio and Pennsylvania were politically necessary - both state's Congressmen were calling the Powel House daily to ask for more money.

On the whole, his record was fairly good, and the election seemed to vindicate that. The Democrats captured the Senate, knocking off four Socialists and losing only of their own. This gave them a plurality, and persuaded the Republican caucus (all eight of them) to switch their support to new Majority Leader Charles McNary, of Oregon. In the House, the Democrats sustained a net loss of ten seats, leaving Speaker of the House Frederick Dirksen of Illinois with a bare majority. For the first time since 1929-1931, the Democratic party controlled the Presidency and both houses of Congress.
 
Corrections

Alright, I have a read about half of these pages and I have some stuff to say. I have worked with this timeline for quite some time, and have gone into great detail with it. First of all, it is clearly mentioned in the series that the United States had 1.5 million military dead during the war. Second, I have a lot of stuff to say about the list of Presidents that have been posted. First of all, Robert E. Lee would be the second President of the Confederacy no matter what some people might think. He didn't have political ambitions, but just like George Washington, he would have been thrust into office, maybe even unopposed. And he would not have died in 1870. His early death was caused by the hardships of the south losing the war, and having to watch his former soldiers suffer at the hands of Northern tyranny. Many doctors said in the late 1860s that he might live another 20 years, physically speaking. As for who would come after him, thats up to speculation. It could easily have John C. Breckinridge, or I think it could have been Richard Taylor. The son of U.S. President Zachary Taylor, he served in the Louisiana legislature before the war, served his military duty during the War of Secession, and had personal ties to President Davis. And I think it is absolutely insane that people would think Thomas Jackson would become President of the Confederacy. He was a purely military man, and unable of comprehending even the basic grasps of politics. He says this himself multiple time in How Few Remain. Now as for Presidents between Longstreet and Wilson, we have to remember that they are Whigs and relatives of former Confederate heroes. During the 1910s and 20s, you have the third generation of Confederates in charge. Basically you have the grandchildren of the original generation. So look at the kids. John C. Breckinridge had political son, Clifton R. Breckinridge. And Thomas Jackson had a son, as stated in How Few Remain, Jonathon. He could have become a politician, especially after the Confederate humiliation in the 1890s. I think he joined the military, saw how screwed up the country was, resigned, and the Confederate people elected him because they wanted a strong leader. And as for minor figures throughout Confederate history who are Whigs, you still have to look at relatives. Even if they are fictional relatives, they would get elected because their name means so much in feudal-southern society. And I remember a detail mentioned in one of the lists about a Whig not gaining the popular vote. It is clearly stated throughout the series that the Radical Liberal Party were on the fringes of Confederate society and were barely elected to Congress to begin with. The Whigs never faced even a competent contenter for the Gray House, which is why Jake Featherston and the Freedom Party scared them so much in the 1920s. If you want to look up exact details as seen in the books, go to this link: http://turtledove.wikia.com/wiki/Harry_Turtledove_Wiki

They have every possible detail of every one of Turtledove's books, with no speculation what-so-ever. Just type something in, and they'll tell you like Wikipedia.:)
 
First of all, it is clearly mentioned in the series that the United States had 1.5 million military dead during the war.

Okay, give a cite and I'll change the reference.

And he would not have died in 1870. His early death was caused by the hardships of the south losing the war, and having to watch his former soldiers suffer at the hands of Northern tyranny.

I adhere to the rule HT established for this series - unless there is a clear reason a death should occur differently, it will happen on schedule. Pop psychology and medical "diagnoses" 150 years after the fact do not rise to the level of a clear reason - though if someone wanted to write a TL with that detail included, I would consider it sufficient.

Many doctors said in the late 1860s that he might live another 20 years, physically speaking.

Okay, provide evidence. And remember that in the 1860s a doctor was someone who had little to no understanding of heart disease.

As for who would come after him, thats up to speculation. It could easily have John C. Breckinridge, or I think it could have been Richard Taylor. The son of U.S. President Zachary Taylor, he served in the Louisiana legislature before the war, served his military duty during the War of Secession, and had personal ties to President Davis.

Fictional descendants of some historical figures do appear, like Zachary Taylor Wood and Rufus Polk. I also considered Clifton Breckinridge for the 1890s presidency. But John Breckinrdge carries the political handicap of remaining in the Union for most of 1861, and would likely be viewed as a johnny come lately. In the end, I went with OTL post-Civil War, with veterans being elected well into the 1890s. (Even then, Champ Clark certainly fought in 1881-1882, given his age and birthplace, and perhaps Wilson as well.)

Second, I have a lot of stuff to say about the list of Presidents that have been posted. First of all, Robert E. Lee would be the second President of the Confederacy no matter what some people might think. He didn't have political ambitions, but just like George Washington, he would have been thrust into office, maybe even unopposed.

And I think it is absolutely insane that people would think Thomas Jackson would become President of the Confederacy. He was a purely military man, and unable of comprehending even the basic grasps of politics. He says this himself multiple time in How Few Remain.

Switch the names "Robert E. Lee" and "Thomas Jackson" in these two paragraphs. I don't have a comment, just pointing it out. And the idea George Washington was a saint without political ambitions has more in common with Parson Weems' imagination than with reality.

And I remember a detail mentioned in one of the lists about a Whig not gaining the popular vote. It is clearly stated throughout the series that the Radical Liberal Party were on the fringes of Confederate society and were barely elected to Congress to begin with. The Whigs never faced even a competent contenter for the Gray House, which is why Jake Featherston and the Freedom Party scared them so much in the 1920s.

My rule is not to directly contradict the text. No where does it say that the Whigs won a majority of the popular vote in every election.

If something I've written contradicts the text, I'll change it. If it contradicts someone else's vision of the series, c'est la vie.


If you want to look up exact details as seen in the books, go to this link: http://turtledove.wikia.com/wiki/Harry_Turtledove_Wiki

They have every possible detail of every one of Turtledove's books, with no speculation what-so-ever. Just type something in, and they'll tell you like Wikipedia.:)

You may have noticed that we've mention that wiki several times in this thread. The problem is that it's incomplete - not every obscure detail is included, and a lot of this hinges on obscure details - and that it's a wiki. Anyone can edit it, and citations are not given. On several occasions we've found articles that were unsupported or just plain wrong.

If someone wanted to write a thread based on your ideas, it would be plausible. But nothing that myself or anyone has else written is necessarily the way it would have happened.
 
I have a vague recollection of the number of U.S. casualties (or just killed) being 1.5 million in the Great War, but I can't back that up. I just recall a line from Flora saying that up to October 1916, the U.S. had suffered 750,000 war dead. And a line, no doubt hyperbolic, from Featherston claiming the CSA killed "a million Yankees."
 
I have a vague recollection of the number of U.S. casualties (or just killed) being 1.5 million in the Great War, but I can't back that up. I just recall a line from Flora saying that up to October 1916, the U.S. had suffered 750,000 war dead. And a line, no doubt hyperbolic, from Featherston claiming the CSA killed "a million Yankees."

The best I can find is Morrell's statement to Landis at the end of Breakthroughs that the USA suffered more than a million dead, and "not that far from that" for the CSA.
 
The Wright brothers

Of all the would-be Leonardos who labored mightily at the turn of the century to invent heavier-than-air flight, perhaps none were less likely than a bicycle shop proprietor from Dayton, OH.

The older brother, Wilbur, was born too early to have been conscripted; Orville served his hitch from 1889-1891. While Wilbur attended Yale, Orville was stuck in uniform in the Department of the East (the re-organization of the US Army had yet to be fully completed at this point, and administrative "departments" stil existed). While his brother entered the business world in Chicago following his graduation from the Ivy League, Orville took a menial job in a printing office.

With loans from his brother and his own mechnical genius, Orville managed to succeed at a variety of business endeavors. He capitalized on the 1890s bicycle craze by opening a shop in Dayton, where he soon began devoting his attention to the nascent internal-combustion engine.

In 1896 in Chicago's Lake Park, Wilbur Wright witnessed a horrifying spectacle: An aeronautics enthusiast, demonstrating his homemade glider, was killed when the pilot lost control and struck a tree, catapulting the man into the ground and breaking his neck. Shaken, Wilbur nonetheless was captivated by the idea fof flight and its business potential. He soon wrote to his brother in Dayton, describing the device and inquiring how Orville would improve upon it.

For the next eight years the two brothers corresponded almost weekly, as Orville built prototype after prototype with his brother's money. (The letters reveal that Wilbur frequently had to prod his less motivated brother into continuing the work.) He soon identified the instability of a flying vehicle as a major problem, and his intutive grasp of the now common concepts of pitch, roll, and yaw are what separated him from the pack. With his three-axis control system, Orville's Flyers were much more stable in flight than anything else being produced in the United States or on the Continent.

After a series of test hops, which frequently ended in bruises, Orville decided to test his final device in the fall of 1904. Ruefully remembering his many bumps, he insisted that a sandy beach be the testing ground (in addition, sea breezes were highly beneficial to a successful flight). He finally settled upon Sandy Hook, New Jersey, where had been briefly stationed at the Army's proving ground.

It was a success: Orville, with his assistant Charles Taylor and his broter Wilbur in attendance, completed two flights, of roughly 140 and 200 feet, respectively. Several off-duty soldiers and officers also witnessed the event, which went unrecorded on film.

Orville immediately return to Dayton to improve the device, eventually producing Flyer II and Flyer III. He worked in secret, as the two brothers were afraid that media attention would lead to a loss of competetive advantage. This had its downsides, as the European and Confederate press would hail the 1906 test of the Frenchman Santos-Dumont as the first example of powered flight. (During the reign of Charles XI, French textbooks and media did not include any mention of Orville Wright.) Today, no serious historian of aeronautics doubts that Orville Wright was the first to fly.

This decision proved disastrous in the long term, as their competitor Curtiss-Wright was more than happy to use publicity to his advantage - in 1909, he received a contract from the US War Department to produce "aeroplanes" for the Army. The Wright Company had to play catch-up, though Orville's scientific acumen was able to restore some competetive balance. Wilbur also played a role - in 1915 he licensed the Albatros D.3 fighter plane from a German firm, which allowed American pilots to finally complete with the British-made Sopwith Pups.

But the War and Navy Departments continued to favor Curtiss with fat contracts. Wilbur Wright died in 1918 during the Spanish flu pandemic, and Orville succeeded him as President of the company. He had none of his brother's talent for business, and Wright was soon scrounging for sales. (It's now known that Wright produced several airplanes to the Confederate Citrus Company, a government front in violation of the spirit if not the letter of the Treaty of Arlington.) His resources were also drained by a grueling patent war with Glenn Curtiss.

Orville attempted to expand into other areas, but his fledgling automotive form went bust in 1931. (Wright automobiles, of which only a few hundred survive, are now worth several times their original price.) It was not until the outbreak of war that his fortunes rose. By now a new competitor had entered the arena, as Boeing designed several aircraft for the US military from the safety of Washington State. The Wright facility in Dayton, Ohio was captured and largely destroyed early in the war, but its factories and schools in New Jersey and Illinois survived.

The Wright-27 competed with the Curtiss-40 to be the US Army Air Force's primary fighter plane. (Boeing did not produce fighters until late in the war.) In late 1942, Wright had a stroke of luck when the Joint Committee on the Conduct of the War found that the Curtiss company had been running a kickback scheme with members of Congress and the military. Many Curtiss contracts were canceled and given to other firms, and in an ironic twist, Wright actually ended up producing Curtiss-40s under license from its ailing competitor.

The aeronautics world was rocked a year later by the introduction of turboplanes in Germany; Boeing followed shortly after. Wright, Lockheed, Douglas, Martin, and Curtiss had been left in the dust, though all promptly began work on their own models. Orville Wright himself seems to have displayed little interest in turbo design, however. Instead, following his merger with his old rival, the president of the new Wright-Curtiss Aircraft Company he immersed himself in the work of the Huntsville Rocket Society, and frequently corresponded with German scientists. Orville Wright died in 1948, having just won a contract to produce long-range rockets for the United States based on the Confederate "Victory" heavy rockets. Wright Air Force Base in Ohio is named after him.
 
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Will there be more?

My biggest problems are time, remembering what I'd had planned, and finding topics that I find interesting enough to write about, which I also know enough to write about. Most of these are written offhand, but I don't just wing it. The last entry I posted is an example - I'm not too fond of it simply because I know very little about aviation. I had a hard time coming up with fun butterflies.

I still have some planned for George Thomas and Fidel Castro, and I never filled in Upton Sinclair. I might start splitting it more and more between pre- and post-1945.
 
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How about Charles Lindbergh, Amelia Erhart, South Africa, JP Morgan, John D Rockefeller, Andrew Carnegie, Tamany Hall, or Statue of Remembrance?
 
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