Lands of Red and Gold

[Jared]

I was watching a documentary about the fur industry a few days ago and it got me to thinking. Is it possible that quolls would be raised for their fur? They have a rather pretty coat that you don't see in a lot of animals (black with light colored spots),while I doubt there fur is as plush as a minks could that be achieved through selective breeding?

Is it significantly plusher and softer than cat fur?

I'm not sure about this one, to be honest. Quolls were never part of the fur trade in OTL Australia, while a variety of other animals (possums, koalas, platypus) were. This suggests that quoll fur wasn't all that attractive.

Selective breeding in quolls would have to have some reason to start with, or else the other demands for quolls (big hunters of rats, more or less) would probably be favoured.

Also, fur farming is itself a relatively recent innovation (mid-nineteenth century). Before that, it was easier and more cost-effective simply to hunt wild animals than go to the effort of raising captive ones. Especially carnivores such as mink (or quolls).

I have heard that 2 of the greatest challenges facing writers of speculative fiction are world building and creating engaging plots and characters. Many excel at just one or the other. You are a master of both.

Merci.

Hear hear!

Jared, I will gladly purchace any writing you care to publish. Get out there and kick T-dove off his laurels for us!

Working on that, but unfortunately at the moment the demands of a job which gives a certain paycheque each week take precedence over a hobby which may pay off later. The first novel I'm likely to finish (still severely delayed) will be set in the DoDverse.

What do they wipe with?

Wipe with the left, shake with the right...

Well, not really.

Probably their hands or leaves.

The wealthy people (ie the ones who have proper flush toilets) use either various derivatives of wattle-bark (soft, strong, and thoroughly absorbent) or cloths made from softly-woven linen.

Poorer Yadji use whatever comes to hand, as it were.

Although being as inventive as the Aurarian peoples are, I could see someone breeding the Paperbark Tea Tree to make better tea from.

That particular species isn't native to Yadji lands, I believe. (I think it grows from Sydney northwards). I'm also not sure if its leaves are drinkable as tea in large amounts - it was used as medicine in small amounts, but it may be a little concentrated to use as a tea.

The main plant which Aururians use as a tea-equivalent is another species, the lemon-scented teatree (Leptospermum petersonii). That's used mostly on the east coast, though; the Yadji don't much care for it.

With a consequence being that a softer barker was also bred and eventually used to clean themselves with.

Some forms of wattle-bark could be used for those purposes. The Yadji already use wattle-bark as a primitive form of "paper" for writing (not made in the same way as true paper). Using it for other purposes could be a weight off their mind.

Would this result in an earlier spread of toilet paper through out the world? What were Europeans using during this time period?

God only knows

This is why you never shake hands with the left...

According to Wiki, it was hands or water mostly, but feathers, leaves and rags were used also. Paper to clean with was apparently used in the 6th century AD.

Starting in China, I believe, and then moving west. One hopes it was a smooth movement.

LAWRL...sorry Jared, but we've become sidetracked by the pressing topic of Auraurian Bum Rags.

Well, it seems silly, but it is a legitimate cultural question to consider.

If they use a hand, do they wash it or do they only eat with the clean hand? How does this effect eating edicate? Is it an insult to touch someone with the hand used for cleansing? Things like that.

It is indeed a meaningful question. The short answer is that the Yadji use a variety of materials to clean with, but they are good enough at supplying water that they are able to wash their hands pretty thoroughly afterward.

So Aururia officially receives its name.

I figured 'twas about time.

Exactly. Great note to end a post on...now it really is the "Land of Gold".

I had originally planned to add a small at the end of this post, showing Nuyts first landing in Yadji lands, but figured that this was a better place to finish.

Great update.

One minor thing, it's generally thought (though no-one really knows) that Baffin was a Londoner of common birth, so he should probably have been able to recognise eel meat, considering it was one of the main meat staples of lower-class Londoners from the Middle Ages right up until the mid-twentieth century.

Perhaps it wasn't clearly written on my part, but I was thinking that he'd have trouble recognising what sort of fish by sight. This is because it was a fillet cooked fairly dark and smothered in a thick sauce which makes it hard to make out much of anything.

He would know what it was when he tasted it, of course, but the Islander captain tasted it first, and so commented on it.

On the other hand, this means that if he recognizes it, he's unlikely to be impressed...

Yes, eel meat itself won't mean much to him. Ironically enough, he would probably find some of the other fish which the Yadji raise to be much more appealing (Australian bass, for instance), but which the Yadji themselves would view as inferior.

However, Baffin would be much more impressed by the pepper sauce. Pepper was at this time one of the most valuable spices (in European terms), and to have it used so lavishly is a sign of wealth (and good taste).

In the longer term, the Aururian equivalents of pepper are abundant, spicier per weight... and offer obvious potential.

 

[Thande]

Perhaps it wasn't clearly written on my part, but I was thinking that he'd have trouble recognising what sort of fish by sight. This is because it was a fillet cooked fairly dark and smothered in a thick sauce which makes it hard to make out much of anything.

He would know what it was when he tasted it, of course, but the Islander captain tasted it first, and so commented on it.

I see. This brought to mind a few things actually...

In OTL the English fens around the Isle of Axholme in Lincolnshire and the Isle of Ely in East Anglia were drained in this period (1620s-30s) by Dutch engineers including Cornelius Vermuyden. This is also what propelled Oliver Cromwell's political career - he originally stood for parliament to voice the protest of the locals there, who were being booted off the fens and the reclaimed land grabbed by the big landowners.

I wonder if the disease epidemics have delayed or changed this in OTL because it would obviously have consequences vis-a-vis Cromwell. But as I was saying. Besides London, people (commoners mostly) living in those fenlands also caught eels and ate them as one of their dietary staples. So you could set up a cultural misunderstanding where Baffin's crew doesn't appreciate that the Yadji consider eels to be a delicacy because they're commoners' food to them. Baffin himself seems intelligent enough to recognise how different lands lead to different weights placed upon foods but all his crew might not. And vice-versa over the peppery spices as you say.

 

[Archangel]

The Yadji can teach a lot in sanitation to the Europe of the time.

 

[Thande]

The Yadji can teach a lot in sanitation to the Europe of the time.

Well, there was already the example of the Romans (and Muslims in some areas), and people just didn't want to imitate it. Cultural thing more than anything I suspect: similar to 'socialism' as a totem in the modern US, you shouldn't do it just because the enemy does do it.

I do wonder if it may have helped in the long run though, building up your immune system and so on - it seems to me that people from the first world travelling to places like India tend to get sick a lot from illnesses that would kill them without modern medicine, which seems to have happened less often before sanitation came in. But I'm sure Jared can fire off a few rounds of statistics from the hip to show whether there's any truth to that or not.

 

[Sol Zagato]

Alot of people in India experience tuberculosis as nothing more severe than a common cold. How's that for a germ weapon primed and ready to go off?

 

[mojojojo]

A place of exotic mystery, a blend of promise and terror. A race of half-men, half-rabbit creatures who can hop like rabbits but stand upright like men. A land where the people have battled so intensely over the centuries that their blood has stained the dust red. Gold so common that the natives use its dust to dye their hair blonde.

What other sorts of half-truths and tall tales have sprung up in Europe about the beasts and men of Aururia?

 

[Thande]

The gold thing (and the name) reminds me of the Discworld's Counterweight Continent, where supposedly gold is so common because it is needed for the small continent to balance the weight of the large landmasses of the other hemicircle. Relevant because Australia can be thought of as a much smaller version of the old Terra Australis Incognita southern continents that European cartographers invoked as a counterweight to the northern hemisphere, which is where Terry Pratchett got the idea.

Incidentally, here's a map from 1643 which is a chap called Hall making fun of people who believed in a great southern counterweight continent - all its 'lands' are named after prominent advocates of Terra Australis Incognita in an insulting fashion (note the use of the word MORON a lot).

 

[Kaiphranos]

Incidentally, here's a map from 1643 which is a chap called Hall making fun of people who believed in a great southern counterweight continent - all its 'lands' are named after prominent advocates of Terra Australis Incognita in an insulting fashion (note the use of the word MORON a lot).]

Maybe it's just a quirk of the mapmaker/satirist's art, but that Terra Incognita looks larger than most of the northern landmasses put together...

 

[Thande]

Maybe it's just a quirk of the mapmaker/satirist's art, but that Terra Incognita looks larger than most of the northern landmasses put together...

Yeah, that's part of the joke.

 

[Jared]

I see. This brought to mind a few things actually...

In OTL the English fens around the Isle of Axholme in Lincolnshire and the Isle of Ely in East Anglia were drained in this period (1620s-30s) by Dutch engineers including Cornelius Vermuyden. This is also what propelled Oliver Cromwell's political career - he originally stood for parliament to voice the protest of the locals there, who were being booted off the fens and the reclaimed land grabbed by the big landowners.

I wonder if the disease epidemics have delayed or changed this in OTL because it would obviously have consequences vis-a-vis Cromwell.

I hadn't really looked into this before, although I had checked and Cromwell himself survived the Aururian plagues with no serious long-term effects. Using a similar check for Cornelius Vermuyden himself (who was in England at the time), he unfortunately died of the pink cough in 1628, when Marnitja went through the island.

As for what this would mean for the reclamation efforts, well, I doubt it would stop them entirely (they started before the Aururian plagues), but his death and the general disruption would probably slow them down a bit. This may have consequences for the political career of young Oliver, although I suspect that he will still rise to prominence eventually.

But as I was saying. Besides London, people (commoners mostly) living in those fenlands also caught eels and ate them as one of their dietary staples. So you could set up a cultural misunderstanding where Baffin's crew doesn't appreciate that the Yadji consider eels to be a delicacy because they're commoners' food to them. Baffin himself seems intelligent enough to recognise how different lands lead to different weights placed upon foods but all his crew might not. And vice-versa over the peppery spices as you say.

Entertaining idea about the eel meat, and I might retcon a small addition about that.

With the pepper, hmm... I think (although I'm not sure) that everyone would appreciate the honour of being given it even if they don't appreciate the honour of tasting it, as it were.

The Yadji can teach a lot in sanitation to the Europe of the time.

They can, if Europeans will listen. As Thande points out, they had other examples, but historically Europe was very poor on sanitation right into the nineteenth century.

It's not even as if advanced technology was required. Decent sanitation was available, among others, to the Indus Valley civilization before 2500 BC. The Minoans in Crete had flush toilets by 1800 BC, too.

The problem is whether Europeans will take much notice of the additional Yadji example. It does help a bit that the Yadji have a much more widespread demonstration of the technology. On the other hand, they will still be perceived as pagan barbarians, so how much inspiration will Europeans be willing to take?

Well, there was already the example of the Romans (and Muslims in some areas), and people just didn't want to imitate it. Cultural thing more than anything I suspect: similar to 'socialism' as a totem in the modern US, you shouldn't do it just because the enemy does do it.

Or perhaps just general resistance to 'foreign' ways. Although it is odd; flush toilets were independently (re)invented by Sir John Harington in 1596 in England. The English didn't really take them up, but the French did.

I do wonder if it may have helped in the long run though, building up your immune system and so on - it seems to me that people from the first world travelling to places like India tend to get sick a lot from illnesses that would kill them without modern medicine, which seems to have happened less often before sanitation came in. But I'm sure Jared can fire off a few rounds of statistics from the hip to show whether there's any truth to that or not.

I don't have any statistics around offhand, but I suspect that it didn't help that much to build up the immune system over generations. This is because European cities were still death sinks throughout the medieval and early modern period. They were not self-sustaining in demographic terms; more people died in European cities than were born. Without constant immigration from the countryside, big European cities would have declined in population.

Part of this effect would be due to the greater contact with epidemic diseases in cities, too, but diseases caused by poor sanitation also played a significant part.

Alot of people in India experience tuberculosis as nothing more severe than a common cold. How's that for a germ weapon primed and ready to go off?

If I remember right, that's similar in most populations with a history of exposure to tuberculosis. The large majority (90%?) simply have a latent infection with TB. It's only in a minority that this progresses to active infection.

This is different in populations without previous exposure, though, as the Amerindian peoples unfortunately demonstrated in OTL - and the Aururians are also demonstrating ITTL.

What other sorts of half-truths and tall tales have sprung up in Europe about the beasts and men of Aururia?

All sorts. Some are complete fabrications, of course, as is always the case. Many are misunderstandings of the Aururian fauna or flora, though. Kangaroos have weirded them out, to say nothing of the platypus. There's probably stories about drunken bears, too, and maybe even drop-bears.

The gold thing (and the name) reminds me of the Discworld's Counterweight Continent, where supposedly gold is so common because it is needed for the small continent to balance the weight of the large landmasses of the other hemicircle. Relevant because Australia can be thought of as a much smaller version of the old Terra Australis Incognita southern continents that European cartographers invoked as a counterweight to the northern hemisphere, which is where Terry Pratchett got the idea.

Interesting comparison. I wasn't so much thinking of Pratchett (although he is a fun read), but this is a place where people can genuinely talk of the Aurient. Aururia has a lot of gold, and the natives have certainly learned to work it.

Incidentally, here's a map from 1643 which is a chap called Hall making fun of people who believed in a great southern counterweight continent - all its 'lands' are named after prominent advocates of Terra Australis Incognita in an insulting fashion (note the use of the word MORON a lot).

Heh. I like it! Especially Pamp H'agonia.

 

[mojojojo]

There's probably stories about drunken bears, too, .

and just what are the drunken bears?

 

[Kriegdämmerung]

Simply amazing stuff Jared! I'm really enjoying seeing how the Aurarian cultures have developed.

Which leads me to my question. What do the scripts of the Aururian peoples look like? For some reason, I see the Junditmara-dominated peoples having an elegant script, similar visually to Georgian, or maybe more simplistically like the Arabic alphabet.

Likewise, could we maybe see a comparitive linguistic chart of all the major Aurarian languages and scripts?

I'm aware this is quite in depth, so if the answer is no or unknown, I understand. Just keep up the AH gold!

 

[Jared]

and just what are the drunken bears?

Koalas. They tend to be seen as small bears, even though they're completed unrelated.

There is a popular misconception that they spend so much time sleeping because they're drunk on fermented eucalyptus leaves. Which is completely incorrect, of course; they're just the marsupial equivalent of Garfield.

Simply amazing stuff Jared! I'm really enjoying seeing how the Aurarian cultures have developed.

Merci.

Which leads me to my question. What do the scripts of the Aururian peoples look like? For some reason, I see the Junditmara-dominated peoples having an elegant script, similar visually to Georgian, or maybe more simplistically like the Arabic alphabet.

All of the eastern Aururian scripts actually look pretty similar. The Gunnagalic (and, in some ways, Junditmara) speaking peoples form a common cultural zone, a lot like Mesoamerica was in pre-Columbian times. All written scripts in the east derive ultimately from the ancestral Gunnagalic syllabic-logographic script, although adapting it to some of the other languages was more of a challenge. (Especially Junditmara, which is a wholly different language group). So do a whole lot of other things, of course, such as the common Gunnagalic calendar.

The ancestral script was quite angular; the type of stylus they used on clay meant that they used entirely straight lines in their basic syllabary. This has been modified somewhat since in some of the descendant scripts, particularly in their pictographs, but it still looks rather solid and chunky.

There are some differences, of course. Most Gunnagalic-speaking peoples use the basic syllabary, with some stylised pictographs included, but where they have adapted some of the syllabic signs to new sounds in their dialects, or created a few new signs. (Some of these signs have diagonals or curves). The Junditmara make much more extensive use of pictographs, and relatively less use of spelling out words syllable by syllable.

The Maori use... well, I'll get to that in due course.

The western Yaora script is different. About two-thirds of its symbols were copied from designs seen in eastern trade wares, but Nuneloc (the designer) couldn't read Gunnagalic, so the value he gave to the symbols does not correspond at all to the sounds the easterners use. In some ways his design is more efficient, since he grouped a lot of similar symbols so that they represented similar-sounding symbols (it's almost proto-alphabetic).

Likewise, could we maybe see a comparitive linguistic chart of all the major Aurarian languages and scripts?

That would be a complicated enterprise! There's rather a lot of Aururian languages. In very general terms, though, there is a whole cluster of Gunnagalic languages which spread over the fertile areas of the south and east. They are all related to each other, although there is no longer a continuous dialectal continuum throughout those areas. The Nangu language is linguistically one of the most conservative, while those of the Kurnawal and the Kiyungu are the most distinct.

The Gunnagalic languages form one rather diverse subfamily of a much larger family of languages which spreads over most of the southern two-thirds of the continent. A lot of the desert languages are related, more distantly, to Gunnagalic, as are the Yaora languages of the south-west.

The northern third of the continent, roughly, is divided into other older linguistic families, which are much more distinct from Gunnagalic and its relatives.

There are a few oddities. As mentioned in the post, the Junditmara language is a linguistic isolate, unrelated at all to any other surviving language. So is the Kaoma language, spoken in the southern half of the south-eastern highlands. The Nguril people (the other ones on the south-eastern highlands) is separate from all of its immediate geographical neighbours, but is distantly related to the Bungudjimay around *Coffs Harbour. (All of these four languages are linguistic survivors from the Gunnagalic expansion.)

 

[mojojojo]

The Maori use... well, I'll get to that in due course.

I can't wait

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

The western Yaora script is different. About two-thirds of its symbols were copied from designs seen in eastern trade wares, but Nuneloc (the designer) couldn't read Gunnagalic, so the value he gave to the symbols does not correspond at all to the sounds the easterners use. In some ways his design is more efficient, since he grouped a lot of similar symbols so that they represented similar-sounding symbols (it's almost proto-alphabetic).

Like Sequoia and Cherokee, eh?

 

[Jared]

Like Sequoia and Cherokee, eh?

Yes, although he's just the most well-known example of someone who invented a new writing system based on stimulus diffusion.

Uyaquk invented a series of scripts for the Yugtun dialect, fer'instance. The runic alphabet was probably derived in a similar process (although no-one's quite sure). Easter Island rongorongo may have been invented through stimulus diffusion, too, although it seems more likely that it predates Spanish contact.

 

[OwenM]

I just found thsi stimeline and I'm only up to the descriptions of Australia as the Europeans arrive.
I'm just interested as to the competing theories of the collapse of the Formative Era.
As far as I know, archaeologists and historians start off with many competing theories (which are usually the ones that catch the public imagination) but after a while, the consensus is usually more to the middle ground, which, in this case, is accurate, unless there's emphatic evidence for one particular theory.
Not only that, but, according to Wikipedia at least, Aboriginal oral history's very good, including what are, as far as archaeologists can tell, accurate descriptions of climates of now-submerged parts of Australia. I can't imagine them giving up oral history just because they've settled down and got writing, and I'd have thought among the first things written down would be their oral history.

 

[The Sandman]

One thought I had on a trade good the Kiyungu could sell to the rest of Aururia, and a very profitable one: palm sugar. Apparently the mangrove palm, native to that portion of Queensland, can be harvested for that purpose. Whether it survives the introduction of sugar cane, or recedes into being more of a niche product, I'm not really sure.

 

[Jared]

I just found thsi stimeline and I'm only up to the descriptions of Australia as the Europeans arrive.
I'm just interested as to the competing theories of the collapse of the Formative Era.
As far as I know, archaeologists and historians start off with many competing theories (which are usually the ones that catch the public imagination) but after a while, the consensus is usually more to the middle ground, which, in this case, is accurate, unless there's emphatic evidence for one particular theory.

Depends on which historical problem you're talking about, I believe. The collapse of the Classical Maya doesn't really have any broadly accepted consensus about its cause (although the drought model probably has more adherents than any other).

Or, to take a model where there's more evidence, there's no consensus on what caused the collapse of the Roman Empire. (The fundamental causes, that is.)

Not only that, but, according to Wikipedia at least, Aboriginal oral history's very good, including what are, as far as archaeologists can tell, accurate descriptions of climates of now-submerged parts of Australia.

First I've heard that, and I'd be rather skeptical about it, to be honest. Oral history could no doubt provide a few points which might well be preserved, but not a great level of detail.

I can't imagine them giving up oral history just because they've settled down and got writing, and I'd have thought among the first things written down would be their oral history.

Oddly enough, the earliest written records in most systems of writing often weren't concerned with recording history at all. Sumerian cuneiform evolved as a method of keeping accounts, and was used for that purpose for quite a long time (centuries, perhaps longer) before it was adapted to recording other details. Early Chinese writing was used for divination, and other uses also came later.

What I figured for the early Gunnagal was that they used early writing as a form of record-keeping for trade, and at first that's all it was. It only slowly expanded to other purposes.

One thought I had on a trade good the Kiyungu could sell to the rest of Aururia, and a very profitable one: palm sugar. Apparently the mangrove palm, native to that portion of Queensland, can be harvested for that purpose. Whether it survives the introduction of sugar cane, or recedes into being more of a niche product, I'm not really sure.

Interesting idea, but unfortunately after looking into the natural distribution of the mangrove palm in Australia (here), it doesn't look like it's suitable. The mangrove palm has a patchy distribution in Queensland, and it's not found at all further than about 18 degrees S. This is further north than the northernmost Kiyungu outpost, *Mackay (which is about 21 degrees S).

I suspect that by the time the Kiyungu expand into that region (or perhaps the Nangu do), then they will know about sugar cane. It probably won't be worth going to the effort of domesticating the mangrove palm when they can just plant sugar cane instead.

Of course, the Kiyungu and Nangu can probably figure out a way to do a lot with sugar cane...

 

[Jared]

Lands of Red and Gold #40: The Christmas Spirit

Given the festive season, I thought it was time for a slightly more light-hearted look at the future of the LRG-verse.

Edit: The sections in blue have been added based on reader feedback from here and elsewhere. I think that they add a little to the piece. If you've already read this post, then you can just check out the blue sections to see what's been added.

* * *

Taken from a discussion thread posted on the allohistory.com message board.
Note: all dates are in the Gregorian calendar. All message times are listed in what would be the equivalent of North American Eastern Standard Time.

Thread Title: AH Challange: Dual state North America

*

Original Post

From: The Last Gunfighter
Time: 24 December, 9:35 PM

Got a new challenge for you folks. This is a challange inspired buy a novella I’m working on.

The basic sceanrio is that North America must be wholly divided into two great powers: an Anglophone power in the north and east, and a Hispanophone power in the south and west.

These too great states must be the recognised sovereign states for the entirety of North America. There can be small autonomous regions and formal dependencies if you like, but de jure sovereignty has two reside with the two great powers. No protectorates, satellite states, or corporate states allowed.

More, the two states must be predominately English and Spanish speaking, respectively. The sole official language for the nations as a whole must be English or Spanish. It is acceptable to have relatively small minorities who speak other languages – Dutch, French, Swedish, Nahuatl, Congxie, whatever – and those languages can even be official languages of subnational regions. But no single linguistic minority can from more than 10% of the population of either nation. At least 80% of the people in each nation much speak the majority language as their sole native language.

The border between the dual states can be flexible depending on your chosen divergence, but it must includ the Rockies for much of their length. The north-south portion of the border should be somewhere around the southern extremities of the Rockies, or a bit further south than that. Maybe a river border, say the Red River [1], maybe the Rio Neuces, or at a pinch the Rio Bravo [Rio Grande]. Or you can use a border determined by settlement or military division, but it shouldn’t be any further south than the Rio Bravo.

In tems of population, industrial capacity, political structure or other demographics, you can pick pretty much whatever you want. But thw two great powers need to be both stable enough and wealthy enough to be effective geopolitical rivals – one can’t dominate the other.

The divergence date must be no earlier than 23 April 1529, ie after the Treaty of Saragossa ratified the division of the globe into Spanish and Portuguese zones. Ideally the diveregence should be after 1753 – the later the better, as far as I’m concerned.

Have at it, folks!

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From: Hasta la Vista
Time: 24 December, 9:42 PM

What are the borders of North America?

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From: Patrician
Time: 24 December, 9:44 PM

What about Greenland?

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From: The Last Gunfighter
Time: 24 December, 9:54 PM

@ Hasta La Vista and Patrician

Good call, folks!

For these purposes, North America includes all of the mainland of the continent from the Arctic to as far south as, well, I’d prefer it to stretch as far as the Isthmus of Panama. I suppose a lesser challenge would be to have North America defined as ending somewhere no further north than the Isthmus of Tehuantepec.

I don’t care what happens to Greenland or the Caribbean islands. They can be part of either of the dual states, still colonies or dependencies of European powers, or even independent micro-nations. It doesn’t matter. (Althgouh I’d love to hear how Greenland could be part of the Spanish great power!)

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From: Christo Columbo
Time: 24 December, 10:12 PM

@ TLG
Is this novella going to be part of a series? It'd be great to see this setting as part of a broader literary universe like R.R. Floyd's "Hammer of Gold" novels - both series, and the follow-ons. I loooove those books. Favourite moment: when the Atjuntja armies bring Shah Jahan himself for appeasement at the House of Pain. Allohistory needs more writers like him!

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From: Patrician
Time: 24 December, 10:17 PM

Erm, Floyd is a woman. Ruth Roxanne, I believe her initials stand for.

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From: Christo Columbo
Time: 24 December, 10:22 PM

Patrician, are you serious? That doesn't get mentioned in the "about the author" section.

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From: The Last Gunfighter
Time: 24 December, 10:24 PM

@Columbine
Have to get the novella finished and sold first before I can think about a whole series.

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From: Patrician
Time: 24 December, 10:27 PM

Deadly serious. She just uses her initials since male readers are less likely to buy from authors with female first names.

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From: The Last Gunfighter
Time: 25 December, 7:06 AM

Come on, doesn’t anyone have any ideas?

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From: Hats
Time: 25 December, 7:21AM

In two words: im-possible.

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From: Kumgatu the Bold
Time: 25 December, 7:26 AM

Originally written by The Last Gunfighter:
> The basic sceanrio is that North America must be wholly divided into two great
> powers: an Anglophone power in the north and east, and a Hispanophone power in
> the south and west.

Partner, not going to happen. Even as few as four sovereign nations in North America is major-implausible territory. Three is space-cuckoo land or wish-fulfillment, take your pick. Two is who rolled the dream grass [cannabis] into your klinsigar?

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From: Hasta la Vista
Time: 25 December, 7:28 AM

Whether North America is defined as ending in Tehuantepec or Panama won't really change things much. Holding that part together is reasonably straightforward. Its the western coast further north which you need to worry about.

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From: The Last Gunfighter
Time: 25 December, 7:41 PM

@ Hasta La Vista
So hwo woudl you keep that part of the Hispanophone great power?

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From: The Last Gunfighter
Time: 25 December, 7:46 AM

@ Hats and Boldie

Try to be more constructive, folks! This is a challange. It’s not meant to be easy, but help me find a way.

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From: Hats
Time: 25 December, 7:53AM

Originally written by The Last Gunfighter:
> Try to be more constructive, folks! This is a challange. It’s not meant to
> be easy, but help me find a way.

Partner, threads on two- or three- or even one-nation North America come up a lot. They get shot down just as quickly as they deserve. Look them up in the search engine; that’s what it’s there for.

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From: Kumgatu the Bold
Time: 25 December, 8:01 AM

Originally written by The Last Gunfighter:
> Try to be more constructive, folks! This is a challange. It’s not meant to
> be easy, but help me find a way.

Not my job to make the impossible happen, partner. You want to make it work, you find a way. Just don’t be surprised if you’re shot down in flames when you try.

*

From: The Last Gunfighter
Time: 25 December, 8:09 AM

@ Hats and Boldie

If you cant say something helpful, just stay out of this thread, hey?

*

From: Hats
Time: 25 December, 8:18 AM

TLG, since you’re clearly too illiterate to work out how to use the search engine, let me give you a quick-and-dirty summary of why it wouldn’t happen.

During colonial times, everyone wanted a piece of North America. No single European power could defeat all of the others without provoking a general European war. Everyone was too concerned with the balance of power to allow one nation to come out on top in Europe. That always applied to divisions of colonial territory after European wars, too. Colonial borders could get adjusted, and even the odd colony fully handed over, but not on the scale required to divide all North America in half.

And by the time independence came, separate identities were too well-established in North America for the nations to unite.

*

From: Kumgatu the Bold
Time: 25 December, 8:28 AM

Originally written by Hats:
> And by the time independence came, separate identities were too
> well-established in North America for the nations to unite.

Truth, Hats.

Just to add to that, even colonies by the one power would find it quite difficult to unite when they had been administered separately for so long. To pick the most obvious example, England had lots of colonies in North America, but they didn’t all join together.

Some did unite, of course, both before and after independence, and maybe a few more could in an allohistory. But only if they weren’t too far apart or too disparate in their culture and governance. For instance, can you imagine Alleghania and New England uniting even if Tigeria wasn’t in the way?

Of course, The Last Goober can’t seem to figure that out.

*

From: The Last Gunfighter
Time: 25 December, 8:29 AM

@ Hats

Just because your lingo is Hats doesn’t mean that you should talk through it!

This is allohistory, not fixed history. Just because something turned out one way in our history doesnt mean that ith as to work out the same way if the wheel of time was given another spin.

*

From: The Last Gunfighter
Time: 25 December, 8:36 AM

@ Boldie

Stop thinking so fixed-historically! Given who you picked your lingo from, I’d have thought you would be more courageous about thinking in new ways.

Don’t you think that if, say, Tigeria fell to the English early enough, that there would be more commonality among the northern and southern English colonies?

*

From: Guido the Guide
Time: 25 December, 8:48 AM

Be nice, everyone. This is Christmas. Save your fights for your family, not fellow AH.commers.

*

From: Kumgatu the Bold
Time: 25 December, 8:59 AM

Originally written by Guido the Guide:
> Be nice, everyone. This is Christmas.

I’m a Plirite, partner. I don’t care about Christmas.

If Goober is going to make stupid pronouncements or ask for space-cuckoo scenarios, I’m going to call him on it, regardless of which day it is.

*

From: Hats
Time: 25 December, 9:04 AM

Originally written by The Last Gunfighter:
> Just because your lingo is Hats doesn’t mean that you should talk through it!

In the spirit of the season, and given that a guide has already warned you about it, I’ll ignore this comment for now.

> This is allohistory, not fixed history. Just because something turned out
> one way in our history doesnt mean that ith as to work out the same way
> if the wheel of time was given another spin.

Allohistory does not mean anything goes. It means picking an event which might have gone differently, and then extrapolating what might plausibly have happened from there. Some things may have changed if history had gone differently, but you can’t just ignore the causes of why particular historical events or trends happened.

There’s nothing wrong with the principle of picking an outcome you want and see if there’s a plausible way for it to happen. But you’re ignoring that there are reasons why North America ended up as we know it today. Flapping your arms won’t change that.

Go back far enough, and you might be able to create a two-power NA scenario, but 1753 is far too late. 1529 is too late. Even 1492 is probably too late, although you might be able to make a case for a post-Columbus scenario where things change. (Maybe, just maybe, if John Cabot survives for longer and is much more successful.)

*

From: Guido the Guide
Time: 25 December, 9:05 AM

Kumgatu, just cool it. Speak civilly of other members. Take the argument to individual messages, if you really must, but even then, remember that good conduct is still in effect. I don’t want the Admin to come back tomorrow and have to start evicting people for things they wrote on Christmas day, of all days.

*

From: Kumgatu the Bold
Time: 25 December, 9:17 AM

Originally written by Guido the Guide:
> I don’t want the Admin to come back tomorrow and have to
> start evicting people for things they wrote on Christmas day,
> of all days.

Partner, how many times? I’m a Plirite. I’m not a Christian. I DON’T CARE ABOUT CHRISTMAS.

You worshippers of a dead god can believe what you want, but don’t try to impose it on me or the world.

Originally written by The Last Gunfighter:
> Stop thinking so fixed-historically! Given who you picked your
> lingo from, I’d have thought you would be more courageous about
> thinking in new ways.

Stop being such a patronising piece of donkey’s vomit.

> Don’t you think that if, say, Tigeria fell to the English early enough,
> that there would be more commonality among the northern and
> southern English colonies?

A few more things in common, maybe, but not enough to matter. It was hard enough getting Virginia and Cavendia to unite. Wine, hemp and tobacco growing free farmers didn’t get on that well with rice and tea growing, slave-owning planters. How well do you think it’s going to work if you throw in whatever mercantilists you have in ex-Tigeria and puritans in New England?

*

From: Emerald
Time: 25 December, 9:26 AM

Originally written by Kumgatu the Bold:
> You worshippers of a dead god can believe what you want, but
> don’t try to impose it on me or the world.

So you want balance instead of Christmas peace? Just don’t give us the harmony which comes through self-detonation.

*

From: Kumgatu the Bold
Time: 25 December, 9:32 AM

Fuck you, Emerald. Fuck you with a 200-metre redwood up the arse.

The worst part of it is, you can’t even be creative with your baiting. You could at least have come up with something smarter like “partner, you have a really explosive personality”.

Instead, it was just a boring insult. The only thing you left out was calling me a black-heart or nigger or something equally puerile. It’s as bad as if I called you a ritual cannibal, which I won’t, because it would be predictable.

*

From: Guido the Guide
Time: 25 December, 9:47 AM

@ Emerald, that was disgraceful. I’ve deleted your second message, since it was even worse. Consider yourself locked for a week. It would be longer, but that’s the maximum I have the authority for. Whenever the Admin checks back in, I’m sure he’ll evict you permanently.

@ Kumgatu, what Emerald wrote was reprehensible, but you were steaming even before that. You’re locked for seventy-two hours to give you a chance to calm down.

@ TLG, you’re still pretty new around here, so I’ll settle for a warning in your case: be more civil to people. This isn’t a playground, and you’re not Mighty Mouse.

As for the rest of you, anyone who tries to keep any baiting going will get the same punishment as Emerald. Anyone else who tries to derail the thread some other way will be summarily locked for twenty-four hours.

*

From: Jason Markham
Time: 25 December, 10:51 AM

Originally written by The Last Gunfighter:
> The basic sceanrio is that North America must be wholly divided into two great
> powers: an Anglophone power in the north and east, and a Hispanophone power in
> the south and west.

Very difficult one, TLG. Maybe not space-cuckoo difficult as some have suggested upthread, but still a very hard thing to pull off.

You’d certainly need an early divergence. 1753 is right out. I think that you’d need to have New Amsterdam fall to the English before it gets properly established. I’m not up on the military and naval history enough to work out the latest date when that would be possible, but once the whole New Netherlands are in place, it’s too late. Even if they fall to the English later, there’s still too much of a sense of separation among England’s disparate colonies.

*

From: The Profound Wanderer
Time: 25 December, 11:11 AM

Maybe have New Amsterdam fall to someone else first. Sweden maybe, or France? Having one set of foreign overlords might mean that the people there have a weakened sense of identity, then if the English take over later, its less of an issue.

*

From: The Last Gunfighter
Time: 25 December, 11:21 AM

@ PWanda

Yeah, that mihgt work. Doesn’t help that much with the Spanish half, though. Can you think of a divergence which would help with that?

*

From: Neville Maximum
Time: 25 December, 11:24 AM

Keeping California part of the Spanish great power is going to be a bitch!

*

From: Cuchulainn
Time: 25 December, 11:32 AM

You've set yourself quite a task here, TLG. I'm afraid I do not see any way to help with the scenario as a whole, but I recommend that you read everything that Stayman has written on the history of Virginia and Alleghania to give yourself some idea of the requirements for unification.

*

From: Patrician
Time: 25 December, 11:39 AM

Keeping the French out of North America entirely is going to be hard. New France is easy enough to have them lose pretty much any time, even Canada, but Louisiana is a ’hole other story.

*

From: The Profound Wanderer
Time: 25 December, 11:55 AM

Originally written by Patrician:
> Keeping the French out of North America entirely is going to be hard.
> New France is easy enough to have them lose pretty much any time, even
> Canada, but Louisiana is a ’hole other story.

There can still be significant numbers of French speakers, remember. Just a 10% minority of the whole population. If you can hold the rest of North America east of the Rockies into one nation – I know, I know, but finding a divergence for that is the challenge – then Louisiana won’t be that big a proportion of the people.

It would have to fall to the English eventually, or even the new sovereign nation after it wins independence.

*

From: Alex 1001
Time: 25 December, 12:03 PM

Originally written by The Profound Wanderer:
> It would have to fall to the English eventually, or even the new
> independent nation after it wins independence.

Or after the English grant them independence.

*

From: The Profound Wanderer
Time: 25 December, 12:09 PM

Originally written by Alex 1001:
> Or after they win independence.

Yeah, I suppose. Given what’s already happened in this thread, though, I don’t want to derail things by getting into the ever-contentious arguments about whether independence was better granted by the pen or the gun barrel.

From a macro-level it’s pretty much irrelevant anyway. You have go figure out how to make the English colonies the only ones north of the Spanish great power. Once you’ve worked that out, the details of how independence is achieved will be relatively minor.

*

From: Lopidya
Time: 25 December, 12:14 PM

Everyone’s forgetting about the Spanish half of the challenge. How to create a super-Mexico or preserved New Spain which stretches from Alaska to Panama? That’s a major undertaking in itself, never mind combining the anglophone half of the continent too!

*

From: The Profound Wanderer
Time: 25 December, 12:21 PM

Originally written by Lopidya:
> Everyone’s forgetting about the Spanish half of the challenge. How to
> create a super-Mexico or preserved New Spain which stretches from
> Alaska to Panama?

Personally, I’d see the English-speaking half as the greater challenge. Find a divergence which can accomplish that, and the Spanish unification might follow from that – if only as a response to the threat posed by this English great power.

*

From: Neville Maximum
Time: 25 December, 12:28 PM

No-one’s answered how any Super-Mexico is going to hold onto California as a single country!

*

From: Hats
Time: 25 December, 12:41 PM

Originally written by Neville Maximum:
> No-one’s answered how any Super-Mexico is going to hold onto
> California as a single country!

Oh, please. No Californian Migration scenarios are commonplace around here. Learn how to use the search engine.

*

From: Neville Maximum
Time: 25 December, 12:45 PM

@ Hats

California is a problem coming and going, partner. If there’s no migration, then there’s not enough people to make it worth Spain’s trouble to hold onto it, either!

*

From: The Last Gunfighter
Time: 25 December, 12:52 PM

@ Hats and Maxxie

Actually, for the scenario I have in mnd, I’d prefer it if California does have a large population.

*

From: Neville Maximum
Time: 25 December, 12:59 PM

Then you’re stuck, partner. If California has the migration, then it won’t be part of any super-Mexico. If California doesn’t have the migration, then how can it have so many people?

*

From: AlyssaBabe
Time: 25 December, 1:01 PM

Originally written by Neville Maximum:
> If California doesn’t have the migration, then how can it have so
> many people?

Cali-fornication...

*

From: Tin Man
Time: 25 December, 1:06 PM

Gunfighter, do you have a map of the borders you have in mind?

*

From: Patrician
Time: 25 December, 1:10 PM

So, would a fall of Tigeria – when still the New Netherlands – to Sweden or France be possible?

*

From: Special Jimmy
Time: 25 December, 1:14 PM

@ Patrician
Not bloody likely. Sweden had too much else to worry about in Europe during the seventeenth century to pick a fight over Tigeria. France didn’t have the navy to hold it until it was too well-established to be conquered and bargained away at the diplomatic table.

*

From: Patrician
Time: 25 December, 1:19 PM

So it’s down to England conquering it directly, if anyone does?

*

From: Special Jimmy
Time: 25 December, 1:21 PM

@ Patrician
Hard to see who else could do it. Spain couldn’t even beat the Dutch in the Netherlands, not like they’re going to bother taking New Amsterdam.

*

From: Hats
Time: 25 December, 1:26 PM

Originally written by Neville Maximum:
> California is a problem coming and going, partner. If there’s
> no migration, then there’s not enough people to make it worth
> Spain’s trouble to hold onto it, either!

That’s oversimplifying to the point of absurdity. It would be worth less, not worthless. A near-empty California give less motivation to keep it, but it’s easier to hold with fewer rebellious locals around, too.

This has come up before. Many times. Check out Red Dawn’s excellent “When We Were Young” timeline, which is based on a variant of the No California Migration premise, or Orb’s seminal “Night and Steel” timeline, which has a near-empty California as a flow-on.

Or, failing that, use the search engine to find the dozens of discussion threads on this topic. You’re not discussing anything new here.

*

From: Patrician
Time: 25 December, 1:28 PM

So basically we need a specific divergence which gives the English early control of Tigeria.

*

From: The Last Gunfighter
Time: 25 December, 1:36 PM

Everyone, this thread is drifting. Does anyon have any ideas for how to solve both halfs of the challenge?

*

From: The Last Gunfighter
Time: 25 December, 1:38 PM

@Tin Man
No, don't have a map. Would you mind drawing one based on what I've described?

*

From: Hats
Time: 25 December, 1:41 PM

Originally written by The Last Gunfighter:
> Everyone, this thread is drifting. Does anyon have any ideas for
> how to solve both halfs of the challenge?

No, because it can’t be done, as you’ve already been told. We’ve moved on to discussing whether one half or the other of your challenge can be accomplished. That might be possible, and more interesting to boot.

*

From: The Last Gunfighter
Time: 25 December, 1:47 PM

@ Hats
Stop being a spoilsport. If you can’t think of a way to make it work, don’t disencourage everyone else from trying.

*

From: Patrician
Time: 25 December, 1:49 PM

TLG, stop being a jackanape. If you’re so precious about your scenario, tell us exactly what you have in mind and we’ll see if we can help.

*

From: Hats
Time: 25 December, 1:54 PM

Wow, TLG, you are a piece of work. Since Guido has already had to drop a warning over conduct in this thread, I won’t say anything else except welcome to my eyes shut list. Population: you.

*

From: The Last Gunfighter
Time: 25 December, 1:56 PM

@ Patrician
Dont want to give too much away, but it’s mostly set in Africa.

*

From: Patrician
Time: 25 December, 1:59 PM

If that’s the best you can do, goodbye. I have better things to do on Christmas than help someone who refuses to be helped.

*

From: Neville Maximum
Time: 25 December, 2:16 PM

Those timelines are much too long. You can’t expect me to read all of them!

*

From: Pierre Dubois
Time: 25 December, 2:53 PM

Much as it pains me to agree with Hats about anything, he’s right in this case. TLG, you might as well be farting into the wind.

*

From: The Last Gunfighter
Time: 25 December, 3:48 PM

Is there anyone left who actually feels up to meeting an AH challange?

*

From: Tuar'e'mont Tua'ru'il
Time: 25 December, 4:02 PM

Love to read a scenario based on this, but don't know enough about it to suggest how you could achieve it.

*

From: Lopidya
Time: 25 December, 4:14 PM

Does it matter for your scenario if there’s still Plirites in North America?

*

From: The Last Gunfighter
Time: 25 December, 4:33 PM

@ Lopidya
It would be fine if there’s still religious Plirite influence. Mkes no difference for my scenario. The only things I nede are that there are only two states, and that linguistically they must be Anglophone and Hispanophone. But the later the divergence the better, since it could flow-on to what I have in mind elsewhere in the world.

*

From: HistoryMinor
Time: 25 December, 6:11 PM

You’re all going about this challenge wrong. A later divergence date is perfectly plausible, if you think about the essential requirements.

The original poster wants a dual state North America where English and Spanish are the dominant languages today. Not in 1900. Not in 1800. Today.

That’s plenty of time for linguistic change, and for military conquest, too.

Why couldn’t two military great powers emerge in North America, even after independence? Wars are complex things. Given the right circumstances, I could easily see a post-independence state conquering most of its neighbours. And holding them, too. Sure, they might be unhappy subjects, but subjects they could remain.

New England has the potential on the eastern seaboard, I think, and Mexico in the south. Not easy, of course, but not impossible either. (Not even im-possible.)

If conquest can be achieved in the right timeframe, then linguistic change would follow. Consider: languages, even well-established languages, can decline over time. Particularly in the era of modern communications.

If New England launches a successful program of military expansion, say sometime after 1870 when its industrial advantage will really be at its height, then it might take over much of North America.

If New England can hold its conquests, then English will be a clear majority language over the whole eastern half of the continent. Of course, there will be significant linguistic minorities, but they will be as islands in an English sea. Most official communications will be in English; so will most education, especially higher education.

Given that sort of linguistic pressure, I’d expect substantial declines in the proportion of minority language speakers. Sure, French or Dutch will never disappear entirely, but they will gradually attrite speakers, particularly in smaller communities. Before too long, the majority of their speakers will be bilingual; in a few generations, many of them will speak English as their first language.

*

From: Broken Drum
Time: 25 December, 6:38 PM

Originally written by HistoryMinor:
> If New England launches a successful program of military
> expansion, say sometime after 1870 when its industrial advantage
> will really be at its height, then it might take over much of North
> America.

That’s some impressive space-cuckoos you have singing there, partner. New England launching a continent-wide military expansion program after 1870? Using what, genetically enhanced super dolphins?

Sure, they’ve got more population and manufacturing capacity than any other individual nation in North America, but not all of them together. New England might get away with conquest once, maybe even twice. But don’t you think that after that, the rest of the continent would form a defensive alliance to stop them? Especially if New England is annexing whole nations.

And don’t even get me started on the possibility of foreign intervention from Europe, Argentina, or Brazil.

*

From: HistoryMinor
Time: 25 December, 6:48 PM

@ Broken Drum
Guess it’s easier to bitch than to create, hey?

I didn’t say it was likely. Just that it was possible. Mistrust can stop nations allying together; foreign wars can keep the European and South American powers busy elsewhere. Don’t write off a whole scenario as impossible just because there’s circumstances where it might not happen.

*

From: The Last Gunfighter
Time: 25 December, 6:54 PM

@ HistoryMinor
Lov you’re style, man! Can you develop that scenario a bit more?

*

From: Broken Drum
Time: 25 December, 7:14 PM

Originally written by HistoryMinor:

> I didn’t say it was likely. Just that it was possible. Mistrust can stop
> nations allying together; foreign wars can keep the European and South
> American powers busy elsewhere. Don’t write off a whole scenario as
> impossible just because there’s circumstances where it might not happen.

There’s mistrust, and there’s bloody insanity.

Mistrust is: Alleghania and Louisiana stand aside while New England invades Tigeria over some trumped-up pretext.

Bloody insanity is: Alleghania, Louisiana, California, Mexico, and everyone else in North America don’t notice when New England cunningly invades and annexes them one by one, and they just stand around smoking kunduri and do nothing about it, because, well, they think that New England’s armies have flashy uniforms or something.

Spot the difference?

*

From: HistoryMinor
Time: 25 December, 7:16 PM

@ The Last Gunfighter:
Glad you like my suggestions, but I can’t help noticing that this is about the fifth thread you’ve started where you ask other people to come up with ideas for you, but you’re never willing to put any time or thought into developing them yourself. I think that this time you should flesh things out on your own.

*

From: Sword of Allah
Time: 25 December, 7:21 PM

Originally written by Broken Drum:
> Bloody insanity is: Alleghania, Louisiana, California, Mexico, and everyone
> else in North America don’t notice when New England cunningly invades and
> annexes them one by one, and they just stand around smoking kunduri and
> do nothing about it, because, well, they think that New England’s armies
> have flashy uniforms or something.

If Alleghania, Louisiana, and the rest are involved in a lengthy war; they might not be able to do something about it when New England starts the attack. And they probably won't be a very good shape to do much after they stop fighting each other. After all, there is historical precedence for that (multiple occasions, for that matter). War-weary Persia and Byzantium getting largely swallowed by the Caliphate, for one.

*

From: HistoryMinor
Time: 25 December, 7:23 PM

@ Broken Drum

There’s constructive criticism, and there’s unhelpful pedantic nitpicking.

Constructive criticism is: pointing out the problems with someone else’s allohistorical scenario and suggesting alternatives to make it work.

Unhelpful pedantic nitpicking is: carping and quibbling and refusing to change your position or keep an open mind, and never actually coming up with any scenarios or ideas of your own.

Spot the difference?

*

From: Dozy
Time: 25 December, 7:31 PM

I think that the best time to create an English-speaking great power in North America is in later colonial times. Maybe do something to muck about with the Nine Years War. You’d have to change the alliance structure or diplomatic priorities a fair bit – maybe have Sweden intervene, for instance – but it might be possible for England to make some major colonial acquisitions as a result of that war (or a close allohistorical analogue).

That wouldn’t be enough in itself to create a single English nation in North America, but it would be a good start.

*

From: Mark Antony the Guide
Time: 25 December, 7:39 PM

Right. There’s far too much hostility in this thread. I’m closing it now before things get even worse. The Admin can sort out any necessary punishments in the morning.

Compliments of the season to everyone who celebrates it, and good luck to everyone else.

* * *

[1] This refers to the Red River which forms the OTL Texas-Oklahoma state border, not one of the at least six other Red Rivers in OTL USA or Canada.

* * *

Thoughts?