Canada Wank (YACW)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Nahh.....remmeber the title of the tread. As long as it's within reasonable limits, it should be fine to keep messing up the Americans.
Ummm.... Except that I am trying to be reasonable. This is a 'wank' in terms of ultimate success, it's not supposed to be one in terms of continually rolling double sixes.

Sieges are expensive in terms of lives and the health of both the besiegers and the besieged. I will retcon the 1k lost in the explosion to be 1k lost due to all causes on that fatal day, or maybe even a bit down from there.

If you guys really think the bad tin casualties went way overboard, I can adjust that, too, but I THINK I could make a good case for even more casualties being plausible.
 
Just for clarification for an Euro who isn't very sharp on US Geography: The NE/US Border will run right across long Island?
Here's Dan's map from page 42 of the thread
If anything, I doubt that New England would be standing by on this - surely, they could be making preparations of their own along the border. If New England really wanted too, though, they could just as well revive some of the old claims from Connecticut approximating the old 1650 boundary, referring to:

ct1.png


The new claim is going to be approximately where the big black line on Long Island is, but a touch east of that. Probably near or just east of the first purple dot on the Island.
 
Great Lakes theatre, part 4: Summer-Fall 1843

I'd hoped that the next Indiana post would be further along. But here's something.



Great Lakes theatre, part 4: Summer-Fall 1843



Coastal 'supply'

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]As in the last war, once the British/Canadian forces have control of the Lakes, they make sweeps through the farmland near the lake, mostly looking for supplies. The local farmers can no longer ship their goods to US markets, so some are happy to sell. (Well, being American citizens, they may not be HAPPY to sell to the British, but many are happier to see their goods sold than requisitioned/*rotting.) Anyone who refuses to cooperate with the sweeps is likely to see their goods confiscated, and possibly their farm burned down, so why not cooperate? Young men of military age, those that are left, are rounded up on the sweeps, too, and taken as British prisoners. This is partly to deny the use of those men to the US forces, and partly to build up the supply of US civilians to exchange for the thousands of civilians (mostly in the Protectorate) that the US had rounded up in THEIR invasion.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Any farm that offers armed resistance IS destroyed, goods seized, buildings burned and all the survivors shipped off to prisoner-of-war camp. Farms that refuse to sell, but don't offer violence usually have goods requisitioned, for British scrip; while farms that cooperate get paid in coin. Note that Canadian farmers in Canada are mostly getting paid in paper money, there just isn't enough gold and silver coin to go around. But paying hard currency to the US farmers is just good sense. 1) it makes them much friendlier to the Allied forces 2) gold is gold. They are guaranteed to be able to spend it. Canadian notes? Not so much. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]This 'hearts and minds' campaign is deliberate, partly to increase the available food supply and pacify that part of the border, but also partly to ease tensions in the long run. The war will end some day, and there will be enough hard feelings, why created more when you don't have to.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The fact that some of the farmers have relatives across the water helps.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]On the other hand, the fact that this land is fairly thickly settled now, doesn't. While in the last war, this was the frontier, with only handfuls of farms, the opening of the St. Lawrence CanalSystem and the Erie Canal have allowed US farmers to make a reasonable living along the shores of Erie and Ontario, while the lack of available farmland in the west means that these farms are settled earlier and more thickly than OTL. On the third hand, the density of farms makes British supply a lot easier....[/FONT]


Cities/ports

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]As opposed to the (relatively) gentle treatment afforded farmers, who can be of use to the British/Canadian forces, the port cities on the Lakes offer nothing but a threat. At this point, there is no attempt to actually invade or take them by land, as it would be very expensive (more in terms of men and matériel than money). However, shelling the cities from the lake is quite doable, and helps stop any possible US use of those ports for war-like purposes.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Oswego and Erie, which have pretty good fortifications, are only attackable with the ironclads, and even then it's risky. However, a whole city is a much bigger target than an ironclad and a much softer one. While the British can't do more than silence a few guns in the actual batteries, they can do some significant damage to the port and the town. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]As for places like Buffalo, they're basically wide open. Any attempt to even start construction on a real fort is shelled into uselessness. The Canadians keep an sloop or small frigate stationed off Buffalo, to prevent any traffic from moving into or out of the Erie Canal.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Sackett's Harbor is an in between case, with minor defences. However, British/Canadian bombardment means that the US doesn't try to make a move north toward Montreal. (They hadn't originally been planning to, but with the checks elsewhere, they might have tried it. Removing Sackett's Harbor's utility as a base for such a move means they aren't going to try it in the future.)[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Smaller towns on the lakefront are treated individually. If they don't pose a military threat, the Canadians treat them like the local farms (trading for supplies if they 'see reason'). If they do, they're treated like Buffalo. [/FONT]
 
Help!

Does anyone have a clue what the population of northern Mexican states was like ~1840?

I have a ref that says that Tamaulipas/Santander was ~30k in 1800, and that's it.
 
Indiana theatre, part 6: February-March 1843

Indiana theatre, part 6: February-March 1843



Canadian push to relieve Tecumseh and Indianapolis.

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][0]With about 55k part time militia available[1], and slowly growing numbers of troops from across the ocean, the Canadian led forces were able to relieve Ft. Tecumseh by the end of February, as already mentioned, and continue on to relieve Indianapolis.[2] Having rail (which they rebuild/repair as needed as they go along) means that the Canadian supply situation is MUCH better than that of the US. Moreover, the number of men (temporarily) available meant that they could basically blow through the much smaller numbers of US troops besieging the two forts. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In the case of Ft. Tecumseh, the US forces had moved all their supplies right up to the siege, as there wasn't any point in not doing so – the lines of communication and supply back to the main US population centres were bad roads overland and there wasn't any point in leaving supplies at any kind of distance. Thus, once they were routed, they basically had to flee with what they could carry on their backs.[3] Thus most of the gunpowder, cannon, and other heavy equipment were simply abandoned. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The case of Indianapolis was rather different, for several reasons. Firstly, the besiegers at Ft. Tecumseh had very little warning of the avalanche about to fall on them, and believed little of what they did hear. They KNEW they had cut the rail line. They KNEW the difficulties they'd had supporting an attack overland. How could the Canadians do better? (Very few people properly appreciated just how effective rail was before the war. And the individual sections of track ripped up turned out to be relatively easy to replace.)[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Whereas the siege of Indianapolis was quite different. Indianapolis is on a navigable river, and the US had built a major supply dump/fort/logistics centre a bit south, and so their supplies that weren't need yet were left there. Also, the attack on Ft. Tecumseh's besiegers, while 'quick', wasn't instantaneous, and once it was over, the sick and injured defenders had to be evacuated, the captured US soldiers had to be dealt with, and defences repaired. So, while the advance on towards Indianapolis was relatively prompt, the besiegers there had fair warning. And, where the first group didn't believe the Canadians could carry out such an attack and thus dismissed the warnings, the huge success there made the later warnings entirely believable. If anything, the tendency was to panic rather than dismiss the warnings as unfounded rumours. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The US forces also took heed of the ineffectiveness of the initial rail-wrecking, and did a more thorough job between Tecumseh and Indianapolis. While this didn't stop the Canadian advance, it did slow it. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]All in all, the US forces at Indianapolis had much more time and ability to properly prepare for an eventual retreat. While they didn't give up without a shot fired, of course, they were able to conduct a fighting retreat back to their base, carrying their supplies and wounded. As such, they remained a force in being, and a threat to be defended against. The Canadians would have to keep up and enhance the garrison at Indianapolis if they wanted to keep it.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]So, in addition to building up the defences at Indianapolis, the Canadians started building a minor dockyard slightly up river, protected by the fort downstream. There they built riverboats, including some on the 'Armoured Steam Boat' model that had been so effective on the Mississippi, with engines and armour brought from the industrial bases in the east. (Only one was ready for break-up, as bringing heavy iron across the rail gaps was too hard, but others were ready to receive armour and engines.)[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In addition to that effort, the remaining soldiers continued on down the rail line towards Ft. Liverpool[4]. For some distance, it's almost a triumphal march, repairing rail as they go (although the rail here wasn't deliberately wrecked so much), and liberating the local villages. However, as they got closer to Liverpool, they encountered more and more US forces proceeding up the line from Liverpool. Now, the rail line actually AT Liverpool was within sight (and cannon shot) of the walls, so the US had to manhandle supplies and rail cars over land to get to 'safe' areas on the east side. But they did have a regional supply centre in front of Liverpool, and by slowing the siege could divert considerable forces east, at least temporarily. In addition to the US resistance, the short term Canadian militia was soon going to have to go home to plant their crops, so the advance stopped at the Eel River[5], and each side starts building a palisaded fort on their respective side of the river. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The US forces chortle at the Canadian overextension – and the Headquarters back in Winchester worry about it. But once the forts start going up, retreating would be seen as a sign of weakness. One reason the US is happy with this position is that the Eel River is navigable to a point some 20 miles or so south of this position, and they figure that will give them an alternate supply route and major advantage once break-up happens. The stated reason of the Canadian commander (beyond the unstated 'this is as far as we got') is that if they allowed the US to use that route uncontested, that would put Indianapolis and Liverpool both at risk. This is a slightly specious argument, as the US has better supply routes to both places without using the Eel. A slightly better argument, that he thought of after the fact, was that a position there could allow the British/Canadian forces to attack south along the Eel, once the offensive resumed.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]And now the short-term militia leave for home, leaving the Canadian gains to be garrisoned and held by much smaller permanent forces. Having to defend a enhanced Indianapolis position and hundreds of miles of rail, most of the increased supply of soldiers from Britain is eaten up just replacing the sick and injured and holding the gains made in the spring.[6] A few forces are freed up to support the defence of Liverpool and sent to St. Louis to help the beleaguered Missourians.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]While we have blithely talked of the brave Canadian forces repairing rail and advancing against the USan invaders, it was, of course, not that easy. Duke William (as he was known then), had an incredible amount of work to do to arrange for the food and supplies and men to be where they were needed, when they were needed in this campaign, even though he had to rush back to Montreal to be present at the birth of his first child, Princess Patricia. Due to heroic efforts on his part, the Canadian forces were well able to do their part.[7][/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]0 This text is taken from a history of the war meant for Canadian schools. It shows. See also footnote 7[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1 The temporary militia are 20k from Ontario, 15k from Quebec, 17k from Michigan, plus a handful extra raised from the Protectorate, so 55k troops available by early-mid January. The first batch of long term troops are the 20k from England that had previously been held back, plus 5k long-term militia from the Maritimes. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]2 TTL's Indianapolis is not the same as OTL's. It's a bit further north/west of OTL's. In particular, OTL's Indianapolis is centred on the West Fork of the White River, which iTTL is the border between the Protectorate and the US. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]3 Well, and decent numbers of sleighs/wagons, of course, but those were largely needed to carry food and personal ammunition for the flight. The author is guilty of sloppy oversimplification here. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]4 basically OTL's Terre Haute, on the site of Ft. Harrison of the last war.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]5 approximately at OTL's Greencastle[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]6 See footnote 1, above. The author here is only considering that first batch of long-term reinforcements, which were, indeed, almost entirely eaten up holding down gains. However, once the refugee situation settles down, sometime in February/March, there are now 10k long term 'Indians' - people from the Protectorate (mostly Indian but some white) who have been driven from their land by the US invasion, and have no place to go. Once women and children are safely settled, most of the men folk (and even some unencumbered women) volunteer to fight the hated invaders. These do allow more offensive operations. There's also 1k Portuguese show up in this timeframe, which is nice but is more effective for morale than further offensives. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]7 The author wants to be able to convey the importance of logistics to a school aged audience. He found it easiest to personify the effort in Duke William, who admittedly was instrumental in organizing the effort, but obviously, there were hundreds of men (and increasingly women), in the quartermaster's department making sure that everything got where it was needed, when it was needed. Note that while his being in Montreal for the birth of his first child makes a great story, he was mostly there to arrange things with Montreal merchants and New England and British suppliers shipping through the hub of Montreal. Certainly, he arranged that trip so as to be there when his daughter was expected to be born, but he didn't make a wild trip in haste for that reason only, as so many romantic retellings of the story would have it - he would not have abandoned his duties for personal pleasures.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Patricia was born 17 March, and named after the saint. (On a foreshadowing note, she will eventually become the honorary colonel of an infantry regiment – PPCLI, anyone? Although this version will be based out of Montreal, not Alberta.)[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]These supply concerns really, REALLY highlight the usefulness of rail, and this will have implications.[/FONT]
 
Dathi

Interesting developments. Might be a case that this limited advance makes the US push more forces into this region, to preserve what few gains they have made? It's also probably the region [other than New England] that they can most easily supply and support. Only other option, which they might try is a push via L Champlain towards Montreal to cut the Canadian line at source. [Although that of course means advancing into the strongest centre of British/Canadian power].

Interesting that women are so prominent in the military and support roles. Makes it really a nation at war to a degree that, apart from the unsuitable example of Revolutionary France, we don't really see until WWI OTL.

Steve
 
Dathi

Interesting developments. Might be a case that this limited advance makes the US push more forces into this region, to preserve what few gains they have made? It's also probably the region [other than New England] that they can most easily supply and support. Only other option, which they might try is a push via L Champlain towards Montreal to cut the Canadian line at source. [Although that of course means advancing into the strongest centre of British/Canadian power].

Interesting that women are so prominent in the military and support roles. Makes it really a nation at war to a degree that, apart from the unsuitable example of Revolutionary France, we don't really see until WWI OTL.

Steve

They can't go up Lake Champlain, it's an Alied lake. And I think I pointed out that Sackett's Harbor is too vulnerable to be used as a base (short of total desperation).

Edit: Ya, the US pretty much HAS to try to reinforce in Indiana. While, as of Spring/early summer they're still in a position of total superiority in East Florida, we've already seen the (out of order) post where that changes...

As for women, I'm thinking that this is very like WWII - with so many men folk serving, women are starting to fill in. Now... this war is going to be MUCH shorter than WWII, on the one hand, but on the other, the demand for men to serve is greater than was experienced in North America in the 20th century.

Women are not actually fighting (except the refugees, basically, and militia being overrun, which does include the forts, now that I think about it, so it is a sizable number). What I'm really thinking is that women are starting to fill in e.g. in clerical roles. It wasn't that long ago, OTL, when "secretary" meant a man, and by the '60s and '70s it had completely reversed.

So, some of that will happen iTTL, but not a whole lot.

My Grandma was part of the largest cohort of women in Medicine at the University of Manitoba (~1920?) until the '60s, so you saw some 'women's lib' effects from both WWI and WWII.

It may just be a flash in the pan. I'm not planning any more wars on home soil for a while:), but it would be nice if there could be some women's rights develop.

Actually, there will be some. Deaconesses and (FNS) Nurses, while 'pink-collar ghettoed', are respected professionals by now, and some of them have families.
 
YALP – Yet Another Logistics Post : 1843

YALP – Yet Another Logistics Post : 1843



Ammunition: Britain

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]By late March, the first saltpetre shipments from South America have arrived in Louisiana, and Louisiana starts a series of powdermills to process it. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]When word of the war, and the Louisiana order, hit South America, an obvious opportunity presented itself. Firstly, a couple of small merchants with available stocks set sail immediately, hoping to get to Nicaragua first (and thus be able to sell what stocks they had before the 'official' supply arrived). Other merchants, cut out of the 'official order', decide to mine and ship some of their own on spec. Sure, Louisiana won't buy it, but the Mexicans are in this war, as are the US, and so they might be able to sell as much to them as the Louisianans were buying. Since multiple merchants have the same idea, and try to do this in secrecy, there ends up being much more saltpetre shipped north than there should have been markets for. Imagine the surprise of a laggard ship who arrives at Tehuantepec or Acapulco, which forced south to Nicaragua – and still ends up selling his entire cargo, at a premium price.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]By the time those first loads appear, Britain realizes she needs all the saltpetre she can get. The first load goes to Louisiana, as they ordered it, but further loads are shipped to Cuba (for the Spanish), to Halifax and to New England – as well as to Louisiana. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Moreover, Britain had expected to go to war in the spring and already had supplies enough (they thought) for a full army in the pipeline. Of course, the anticipated 'full army' is less than half the size of the number of men they eventually get in uniform (counting all the Canadian militia units, especially), and the rate of ammunition usage in actual warfare is about twice what was expected, so supplies for the armies in Canada are tight, very tight. Britain tries 'borrowing' gunpowder from other European nations (i.e. buying it at inflated prices, and promising to replace the supplies at a later date), which nets them some extra supply.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Emergency orders are sent, especially to India, but the initial order (sent at New Year's) doesn't result in supplies reaching Britain until fall, and those orders were too small anyway.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The Central America/South America loop is much shorter, but it's not until July or so that the 'we'll buy every scrap you can ship' message really starts easing the supplies for the Allies. Together with the increased Indian supply starting to arrive in August or so, the British supply constraints ease from VERY tight to merely tight.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]If major supplies of gunpowder had not been prepositioned in the border forts of the Protectorate, the Canadian supply situation in the early months of the war would have been pretty desperate. As it is, the reserves have mostly been used up by early summer, and everyone breathes slightly more easily when new powder starts trickling in (from the too small British orders, and from Louisiana). [/FONT]




Ammunition: US

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]However, the United States is in a horrible position. They had pre-positioned enough supplies for all their offensives to succeed, so they thought, but where the British underestimated ammunition consumption by a factor of 2, the US underestimated it by a factor of 3 or more. Domestic production was up massively over pre-war amounts (mining bat caves), but it basically had only been developed to a level to support one active theatre and minor counterinsurgency in a couple of others. And, again, that was assuming a much lower consumption rate than actually occurred. Moreover, the odd sortie from e.g. Fort Liverpool to hit US supply dumps (only once SO effective, but several times managed to destroy some supplies), and the constant ambushing of US supply lines in Florida and the Protectorate, meant that even more was needed – where essentially none was available. And, of course, there were all those coastal batteries needed along the Atlantic, plus smaller versions on the Mississippi and Great Lakes.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The first thing that got hit was civilian supply. All gunpowder and saltpetre was requisitioned for military use. (Which, of course, went over like a lead balloon in the West and South.) Secondly, all live-fire training and even shooting practice was stopped, as the supplies were too vital. (Not that the US had gone in for regular live-fire training, even before.) This was especially problematic for the coastal batteries, as the massive expansion meant that few of the gunners had fired a gun (or at least THAT gun), until they actually try to fire in live action, which results in almost ineffectual performance, and minimal damage to the Allied raiders. One US battery commander did decide his men needed practice, but then a British raid came and his battery was out of ammo, and thus it was TOTALLY ineffective, not just mostly. He was court-martialed and made a thorough example of and no one dared repeat his 'error'. Fourthly, production of rapid fire breech-loaders (Hall rifles) is stopped, as the US can't afford the ammunition usage their superior rate of fire produces. (Note that the thousands in the field are not recalled.) Similarly, Maceroni rocket production is slowed, as being simply unaffordable – for a given amount of damage to the target, a cannon uses rather less gunpowder. And fifthly, production at the various bat caves and saltpetre refineries is stepped up, and by fall they will have doubled production over what it was at the beginning of the war, but that is still horribly inadequate.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The only force that is anything like adequately supplied is the currently operating siege – first at Ft. Francis until the beginning of April, then Liverpool. The minor sieges get starved of gunpowder just like all the other theatres. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The ceasing of production of new Hall Rifles, means that the horrendous problems trying to produce percussion caps for them is lessened. Thus the US lack of access to (much) mercury is a smaller problem, and experiments with silver fulminate are terminated.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The US is also desperately short of lead for bullets, which doesn't help. Production at the few mines in US territory is stepped up (this usually actually means silver mines are being mined for their lead content!), and a great patriotic appeal is made to the civilian population to volunteer lead and pewter objects that can be melted down for 'our boys in blue'.[1][/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Cannon balls and cannon, being iron are constrained by TTL's much smaller iron industry, but every existing cannon can be supplied with balls, it's that there aren't as many new cannon as would be liked. [/FONT]


Ammunition:Mexico

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Of the various combatants, Mexico actually has the smallest problems with ammunition supply. Not because they have good supply, but because much of their army is stuck in San Antonio, and not fighting anyone. The most active force is in the northern states where resistance is quickly building to the forced requisitions of supplies.[/FONT]


Rail

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The incredible logistics advantage that rail provided was partly appreciated before the war, but was driven home very clearly during the Canadian counter-offensive campaign in late winter. This would have been simply impossible without the rail connexion to the existing forts – and without the almost completed rail connexion to the Atlantic.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]As a result, the filling in of gaps between Montreal and Detroit becomes the top priority of the British/Canadian effort once the ground thaws. By the beginning of June, Montreal (and thus Boston) were connected to Detroit (and Lake Michigan, although connexions to Chicago, and points south, such as Prophetstown, Liverpool and St. Louis would have to wait).[/FONT]


Food Supplies:Britain

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Food for the army is holding out reasonably well. The flood of refugees put a bit of strain on supply, but Ontario (and to some extent Michigan) are becoming the Breadbasket of the Empire, and it's mostly a matter of getting it from where it's stored to where it's needed. Of course, food eaten by refugees won't be available in Britain, so significant grain purchases are made from Poland, Prussia and Russia.[/FONT]


Food Supplies:US

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The supply of food is just fine. By late summer, farmers are starting to be wary about taking bank-notes for their produce, and prices start going up. But they don't have much choice, as where else would they sell it? It's not like anyone is going to buy their produce for coin. (Well, except on the shores of Lakes Erie and Ontario <g>). [/FONT]


Food Supplies:Mexico

This is where the problem lies. There is 'lots' of food in Mexico, but supporting the army in San Antonio is very, very difficult. Food has to be transported across hundreds of miles of trail, and the logistic tail is awful. If they tried sourcing the food from central Mexico, it would be absolutely impossible, so food is taken from the three border states Nuevo Leon, Coahuila and Santander (modern Tamaulipas). Initially, most of the local farmers and ranchers were happy to sell, especially to the patriotic war effort. But when the war turns sour quickly, and the San Antonio occupation is basically a running sore, well, the patriotic rush fades quickly. Besides, the army quickly runs out of coin with which to pay for supplies, and starts paying in paper money, then scrip or IOUs, if the farmers are lucky. This turns the population strongly against the army's supply corps, and people start refusing to sell. The army needs the supplies, so more army units are brought into the area, which means they need yet more food, and relations spiral out of control.
These three states were already very unhappy with the central government of Santa Anna for the revocation of the federal constitution. In fact, there had recently been an abortive 'Rio Grande Republic' consisting of these three states, which was put down by the central authorities. It doesn't take long for people to start flocking to the banners of the new Republic, again[2]. And Britain has been quietly landing arms (mostly obsolete muskets) and ammunition since the Mexican army crossed the Nueces. Now, those arms are being taken up and used.



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1 compare the OTL WWII campaigns for fats and aluminium and ….[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]2 actually, the previous rebellion wasn't terribly widespread, and so 'again' is a bit much here, as there wasn't any 'flocking' the first time 'round. Now, however, people are thinking 'We should have listened to these guys then, and then we wouldn't have to put up with this c**p now.'[/FONT]
 
So, Mexico is facing internal revolt yet again. Will any other areas disillusioned with Santa Anna revolt too? (Yucatan did OTL around this time)
 
Hi, I've read this thread, and I'd like to add my voice to the chorus of praise. I've learnt a lot about many things by reading it.
Don't think I can add much to the technical detail, but on a related subject:

YALP – Yet Another Logistics Post : 1843

Food Supplies:Britain

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Food for the army is holding out reasonably well. The flood of refugees put a bit of strain on supply, but Ontario (and to some extent Michigan) are becoming the Breadbasket of the Empire, and it's mostly a matter of getting it from where it's stored to where it's needed. Of course, food eaten by refugees won't be available in Britain, so significant grain purchases are made from Poland, Prussia and Russia.[/FONT]

Sorry if this is getting ahead, but it would be really great if the Irish potato famine coming up in a couple of years could be mitigated in some way. I don't think that there is an easy way to avoid some misery, but extra wheat (or even portato) imports from N. America would help, and maybe cheap passage and land grants for emigrants?

Keep up the good work:)
 
Actually Roisterer, I suspect that Dathi has already butterflied the Famine - if not the Blight. The problem that led to the Famine was'nt so much a lack of food as Govt policy. As an Irishman once put it to me "God caused the blight. The Englich caused the Famine."
Even in the worst days of the Famine, beef, wheat and butter were being exported to Britain; indeed they put armed troops on them to prevent the people robbing them. The problem was that the govt refused to intervene and provide either food or work programmes as it would "distort the market". The reason for the difficulties was seen as the natural laziness of the Papist peasants.
One economist of the time stated in an Article in "The Times" that "a million dead Irish would not be ehough to make the others work."
Interestingly, when the Blight hit (Presbyterian) Western Scotland, apparentlyy it was alright to distort the market as the Govt launched a whole slew of programmes creating work for people to buy food.
Given the lesser anti-Catholicism Dathi has created here, I suspect the Govt will be more pro-active.
 
Interestingly, when the Blight hit (Presbyterian) Western Scotland, apparentlyy it was alright to distort the market as the Govt launched a whole slew of programmes creating work for people to buy food.
Given the lesser anti-Catholicism Dathi has created here, I suspect the Govt will be more pro-active.

It wasn't anti-Catholicism, as much as at the start of the famine the British government was really very small, it simply didn't have the capacity to intervene effectively, even if it wanted to. It also, as you say, believed that the market would stort the rpobelm out naturally. By the time it became clear that it wouldn't and givernment assistance programmes became active, it was already too late.
 
So, Mexico is facing internal revolt yet again. Will any other areas disillusioned with Santa Anna revolt too? (Yucatan did OTL around this time)
Yucatan is revolting now, I THINK I've mentioned arms being smuggled in.

What I haven't decided is whether the Yucatan revolt will be successful. Part of Yucatan's problem is that neither the indios nor the whites really wanted to be part of Mexico, but that each wanted to be free to be in charge. As I understand it. So, a Yucatan revolt here is likely a 3-way fight, which doesn't help its chance of success, I don't suppose.

There are probably federalist revolts in the interior of Mexico, again, as well, but since they can't be supplied arms from Allied ships, I don't think they'll be any more successful than last time. I don't know that much about Mexico, so I'm probably going to skip all that.
 
As for the Irish famine, British policy iTTL is for increased trade, but not the ideological 'hands-off' that happened iOTL. Moreover, you have increased or earlier (private) social support groups. The deaconesses aren't the Salvation Army - but they're a lot closer than anything that actually existed at the time.

Ireland is going to be in for a world of hurt, that's pretty much unavoidable, but less than OTL.
 
It wasn't anti-Catholicism, as much as at the start of the famine the British government was really very small, it simply didn't have the capacity to intervene effectively, even if it wanted to. It also, as you say, believed that the market would stort the rpobelm out naturally. By the time it became clear that it wouldn't and givernment assistance programmes became active, it was already too late.

Alratan

I would say more with Dathi that it was the development of the laisse-faire viewpoint that did the damage. While the government was a lot smaller than modern ones Britain at the time had a long and often successful policy of intervention to meet aims and/or resolve crisis.

I believe the 1st year of the famine the Peel government was in power and a relatively small purchase of millet I think it was and promising to release that to the market if prices got too high helped keep them low. Which suggests that while the situation was worse much later on, that hoarding and market fixing also played a part.

While there was still some mistrust in and in parts no doubt hostility to Catholism I don't think that was significant. The selling of food exported from Ireland was I believe largely produced by Catholic farmers and the government policy once the Liberals came in was that they shouldn't interfere and definitely shouldn't force prices down which was seen as bad for the farmers.

I would agree that the problem is likely to be less serious this time around. Both because there is less religious tension and more so that the government is more committed to resolving problems. It will still be serious because the position in much of Ireland is deeply unstable environmentally. Any problem affecting product will quickly become serious. However there will probably be more support for emigration to ease problems. [Not to mention, if the current war lasts long enough and given the traditional high presence of Irish in the British army, taking the queen's shilling could become even more commonplace].

Steve
 
Top
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top