Canada Wank (YACW)

[stevep]

More respect. I.e. not none, which is what blacks got. You notice I called the US view of Indians as "'primitives' and not white" which isn't TOO far from your 'savage'. Certainly, the effective (and somewhat more disciplined) role the Indians played iTTL's *War of 1812 is much more likely to incline a US soldier to treat them with some respect - militarily (not personally).

OTOH, the extended history of misbehaviour between whites (especially Americans) and the natives could lead to problems, too. So, you may have a point (although I think you slightly misinterpreted my view of American views here).

Dathi

Ah, sounds like we were on slightly different wavelengths, I was thinking you meant there wouldn't be any real racial hostility towards Indian civilians or guerillas. However sounds like you meant it wouldn't be as bad as against the blacks, which is a different thing. Sorry.

Steve

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Florida theatre, part 1 (December 1842-June 1843)

Florida theatre, part 1 (December 1842-June 1843)

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]As mentioned above, the US invaded (East) Florida from St. Augustine and Pinckney [OTL Jacksonville] with 30k troops (10k regular, 20k militia), and swept the defenders before them, seizing most of the peninsula by the end of January, or so. While the token thrusts at West Florida were held off.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Their supply situation from the US to Pinckney is great – there's a rail line (even if it is cut occasionally by British raiders). Further, the St. John's River and its tributaries give reasonable access to much of the eastern part of the peninsula. However, anywhere off the good water road is difficult to maintain. The initial movement can be supported by sea, and they set up bases all the way down the east coast to Biscayne [OTL's Miami], but once the Royal Navy gets into gear, and reinforcements arrive at the RN base in the Barbados, the various US forts have to be supplied by land, and small coastal craft, which makes them very isolated. Thus, instead of having, say 12 forts with 2.5k troops in each, you have, say 4 outlying forts with about 1k, 4 closer forts with 2k and then some much bigger forts at the heart. Remember, too, that you have large parties of men working on communications (mostly roads) between the various forts, which reduces the number available in each. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The Spanish had, very deliberately, not built up its positions in Florida much at all, as they didn't want to 'provoke' the US. (Remember, they believed that Clay's belligerency would be completely directed toward Britain – as it should have been.) There was some strengthening of fortifications in West Florida (e.g. Mobile and Pensacola), as the US had tried to take those areas in the War of 1812, and there was some fear they'd try again. Actually, Don Carlos was more worried about the British than the US there, but the end result was that West Florida did end up being strong enough to hold off (Pensacola) or defeat (Mobile) the US probes sent there. (And remember, that these were basically probes – if they had taken the cities, fine, if not Clay could say he tried.)[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Spain was shocked by the US attack on it. The US would have more than enough on its plate taking on the British Empire, and unnecessarily adding opponents was foolish, so foolish Don Carlos simply didn't believe the first reports. So, Spain wasted some time on diplomacy and trying to check facts before engaging in a major effort. (The fact that it takes a month or so for news to travel each way is an additional problem.)[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]So, it's the late January before the situation really sinks in at the Spanish court, and they start seriously preparing for war. On 24 January 1843, Spain takes action: 1) she declares war on the US, 2) the Regent sends messengers as fast as possible to Lisbon with instructions for the ambassador there to sign agreements with Portugal (and, later Britain and the League), 3) the army is ordered to prepare troops for shipment overseas, and 4) a massive recruitment drive for new troops is instituted and 5) instructions are sent to the Caribbean colonies (Puerto Rico, Cuba, Florida) to prepare for war and massively increase recruitment there. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Few army units are immediately ready for shipment overseas, and there hasn't been any groundwork for raising new troops. It takes until mid February (which is actually pretty fast) for the first few Spanish regiments to board ship heading to Cuba. Other regiments are readied for the move, and the quartermaster corps goes into overdrive, trying to figure out how to support what may be a major army across the width of an entire ocean. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Cuba has 8k troops resident[1], and when orders arrive in late February, 3k are packed up and shipped to Florida. That, of course, takes some time, but Pensacola gets 2k extra defenders and Mobile 1k by early March. The US besiegers of Pensacola try to hold out for a while longer, but give up by the end of the month.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Spanish troops.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The first (existing) troops set sail for Cuba in mid February. More are sent across as they can be readied for overseas deployment as as supplies and support can be prepared. It takes time to raise new troops and train them, so it is getting into June before the newly raised troops are trained and ready to ship overseas. By that point, League shipping (British and Portuguese, mostly) is also available to carry larger numbers of soldiers and supplies across the ocean than the Spanish could do on their own.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]By June, Spain has shipped enough troops overseas and raised enough local troops that she can move from the defensive to the offensive. 5K troops from Europe have landed in Florida[2], together with 5k troops from Cuba. Added to the 5k troops raised in West Florida, this force is able to take on the US in East Florida, as they can hit individual spots, and the US has to try to defend the entire peninsula. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Most of the European troops descend on Key Biscayne [3] and set up a force across bay from the US Ft. Biscayne [OTL Miami]. After building a fort there, and accumulating supplies, they attack the US fort on the mainland. That fort, isolated and low on supplies, falls on July 7. Meanwhile, troops move out from Pensacola, some overland, some sea-borne, and move into the west side of the Peninsula, the (mostly black and Indian) troops moving overland to OTL Tallahassee, and a mixed sea borne force landing in Spiritu Santo Bay (OTL Tampa Bay).[4] By the end of July, Spain is control of each of these locations, and is skirmishing with US forces. However, the US logistics to each are miserable, and there is not much they can really do to contest the Spanish hold. OTOH, the Spanish have to be careful what THEY do, so as they don't over-extend themselves. If THEY tried attacking overland to e.g. OTL's Orlando, they would be wiped out, as they advanced at the end of a long logistics trail into areas where the US held strongly and were close(r) to their base of supply. The US still out numbers the Spanish/Allied forces significantly (so far the US has about 30k while the Spanish have 15k in the theatre). But, on the periphery where the Spanish have attacked, they can concentrate locally superior force. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]One major advantage for the Spanish now is that their new bases can be used to supply the blacks and Seminoles already in Florida. They had received some support already (by the Brits if nothing else), but with active support bases, they can be far more effective.[5] Similarly, if there are safe bases for their families to retreat to, the locals will far more willing to take chances.[/FONT]






[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Fighting together, and the help that the League provides in terms of supplies and especially shipping thaws relations between Spain and the League states considerably, although they are still very much co-belligerents, not allies.[/FONT]






–
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1 OTL there was 7k at the start of the 10 Years War in 1868. Here, there has already been a slight increase, due to the increased tensions (again, with Britain as much as the US). [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]2 actually under 4k actually land in Florida. By now, negotiations with the Brits have progressed well enough that the two cavalry that came over in the first wave are sent to Tejas in exchange for a West Indies and an EIC regiment which land at Tampa Bay. However, since those troops are swapped, the number added to the Spanish force is the same. Note, too, that all of these European troops are pre-existing ones from before the war. While the newly raised troops are finally ready to ship, actually getting them on ships and then across the Atlantic will take a month or two. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]3 European Spanish troops are aimed initially at Key Biscayne because the ocean breeze is healthier for non-tropical (especially European white) troops. Obviously, they're not going be able to maintain that as a greater and greater proportion of the Spanish forces will be from Europe, but for now that's how the troops are allocated.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]4 note that none of Miami, Tallahassee, Tampa, or St. Petersburg had been founded yet, so none of them exist iTTL, at least by that name. There are US forts recently established in (or rather, near) each of those locations, but they all have bad supply connexions to the US and so are 'easy' to take. Tallahassee is a Seminole name for the area, so that stays. Miami is currently Ft. Biscayne, and the two forts on Spiritu Santo Bay are named for their colonels.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]5 one might have asked why didn't the Spanish wait until they had even more overwhelming force (like the newly raised troops that will be available in, say, two more months). Part of the answer is that they're ready to start now, why wait? And another part is that by grabbing footholds on the Florida peninsula, they a) make the locals far more effective, b) increase their standing with the locals (if the Seminoles and blacks were only getting supplies from Britain, it would heavily undermine Spain's ultimate control.), and c) by making the locals more effective it wears down the US force, so that when the Spanish do take on the US's main body in Florida, it will be a lot easier. [/FONT]

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Great Lakes theatre, part 3 (December 1842-July 1843)

Great Lakes theatre, part 3 (December 1842-July 1843)

Preparation

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Now that there is rail from Boston to Montreal, supplies can, and do, pour in from Britain. One thing is rails for the next season's construction, which are stockpiled – some rail and ties are even sledged out to building sites, so that all that will be needed come spring is the building of the road bed (which is bad enough). There is even some temporary rail construction on top of frozen ground (obviously that has to be relaid in the spring, but right now they're desperate to increase logistics capacity. Other work that can be (and is) done in the winter is blasting some necessary cuts where the RR will go. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Similarly, the foundries at Chicago are, for the first time, not closed down all winter. An extra effort had been made to mine and stockpile ore at Chicago for use in the winter, and since there is now rail to the coal mines, that iron can be smelted over winter. It's still only 1/3 the effort that's possible during the shipping season, but it means that, come spring, there will be rail for faster/earlier building. New foundries and forges are also built, in preparation for the coming demand. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Trying to get armour and cannon to the shipyards on the Lakes is a real pain, but with rail most of the distance, it's at least possible. So the British manage to complete the Vulcan (at Kingston) in time. The Hephaestos (at Burlington) is ON a rail line, so is easily completed, and the Goibniu (at Chicago) is at the largest collection of foundries in Canada, so it, too, is ready any time the ice melts, too. However, the Svarog (at Detroit) is not ready – it needs to wait for break up to get the last of its arms and armour. However, a couple of smaller canal boats are converted in Montreal, as an afterthought. So, once the canal opens, they can be sent up to Kingston and help protect Lake Ontario (or the other Lakes, depending on need). Since they have to fit through the existing locks, they aren't very big, or well armed or armoured, but they are a lot better than nothing.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Meanwhile, the results of the battles on the Atlantic coast have demonstrated that timberclads just aren't up to dealing with modern warfare, so the Cicero in Oswego needs to be upgraded with iron plate like her sisters. Since the rivers are frozen and the US has no rail paralleling the canals, getting plate from Pittsburgh and the east coast is a herculean task. At least the cannon are already in place. Still, control of the Lakes is a necessity for the US campaign, and they manage to drag the required iron plate across winter roads. At least the ground is frozen and snow covered (enough), so it's easier than carrying similar loads on such roads would be in the summer. Again, minor armour is added to the steam frigates abuilding at Erie and Whitehall.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Come break up, the battles commence.[/FONT]


Lake Champlain

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The New England's Hephaestus is on the open lake, which melts before the rivers do. So she is able to launch, and get a little working up done before the US's lightly armoured steam frigate is able to break free of the ice and make it onto the lake. The battle there is short. A lightly armed steam frigate is no match for a full up iron clad – and the Hephaestus is able to be armed with the newer, bigger guns. By April 7, Lake Champlain is an Allied Lake, and even the US forts at Ticonderoga and Whitehall will suffer serious damage from the shells of the Hephaestus.[/FONT]


Lake Ontario.

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The Vulcan is an ironclad – but not as big as the ocean going ones that so outmatched the Orator-class iron sheathed timber clads. The Vulcan and the Cicero go head to head and do perceptible damage to each other, but it's basically a draw for now. Both ships retire to their yards to repair the damage. While these ships are in the yards, the British unarmoured ships, including the St. Lawrence (a 1st rate from the previous war), patrol the lake, keeping it free for British shipping. In particular, the 2 armed mini-ironclads come up from Montreal, and new heavier cannon come up to uparm the Vulcan. The next encounter is a rout. The Cicero is heavily damaged again, and flees back to Oswego. While she does make another sortie later in the summer, she is cut off from her base by heroic, sacrificial efforts by the St. Lawrence and the Princess Charlotte (armed with bigger, longer ranged guns, but unarmoured) until the Vulcan comes up and sinks her (July 2). Net result is 2 British (obsolete wooden) ships sunk to one US ship – but the British now have control of the lake, and the US doesn't, so it's a clear British win.[/FONT]


Lake Erie.

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The new steam frigate launches from Erie and controls the lake, preventing British resupply for a couple of weeks. The Svarog at Detroit is not finished, and can't be completed with eastern supplies. Fortunately, plate can be shipped in via the trans-Michigan rail once southern Lake Michigan melts, but by the time she's ready for action, the northern parts of Michigan and Huron have thawed, and the Gobniu has made it around from Chicago. Two ironclads against one lightly armoured frigate is no contest. By April 15, the only warships on the upper lakes are British.[/FONT]


Consequences

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Once the British have full control of the lakes, they not only can use the lakes for their own shipping and deny them to the US, but also the ironclads can attack US shoreline cities. While there are batteries on the shore, the British ships can sit far enough out that cannon shot bounces off, and their return shells can wreak havoc. [/FONT]

 

[foresterab]

yay!!! updates.

With the Great lakes in British hands except for Quebec City it looks like the northern frontier is somewhat secure. Same with the Southwest after events along the mississippi.

One question though...how are the Canadian settlers going to take to having all the British East Indian troops show up? Major cultural differences and language barriers could lead to some problems.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

yay!!! updates.

With the Great lakes in British hands except for Quebec City it looks like the northern frontier is somewhat secure. Same with the Southwest after events along the mississippi.

One question though...how are the Canadian settlers going to take to having all the British East Indian troops show up? Major cultural differences and language barriers could lead to some problems.

"except for Quebec City" ??? Quebec is in British hands.

The US still has massively more men than the Brits, so, for now, the militia and general population is going 'Thank God, more soldiers'. Now, AFTERWARDS, when some of these guys want to muster out and settle down, there will be come conflict, IMO.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Chronology of the war so far

not a real update, but ...
This TL was on hiatus for a while, so here's a brief chronology of some of the events from the start of the war

Chronology of the war so far:
December 7 - US ultimata
December 15 - US attack on all fronts
December 18 - Allied ironclads give Allies naval superiority Eastern Seaboard. (US warships essentially confined to port. Coastal shipping not yet stopped).
January 1 - battle of East Baton Rouge (east bank, near Baton Rouge)
- Charlotte's coronation as Queen of Ireland
January 3 - battle of West Baton Rouge (west bank, near Baton Rouge)
January 18 - attack out of Tejas (Sabine/Orange)
January 20 - British relieve Ft. Tecumseh
January 24 - Spain declares war on US, starts preparing for war
January 'end' - bulk of EIC troops arrive Louisiana
- 'Illinois' 'pacified'
- siege of Ft. Francis 'well under way'

February 1 - Charlotte's coronation as Empress
- Sophia & Peter's coronation as monarchs of Canada
February early - devastation of the Norfolk naval yard.
February mid - first Spanish regiments sail for Cuba
March beginning - raid on Charleston
- second West Indies regiment arrives
March 17 - William and Antonia' first child Patricia born in Montreal
April 2 - Ft. Francis falls.
April 15 - British effective control of Great Lakes
May - 2.5 Bavarian troops arrive to defend Tejas.
July 2 - Cicero sunk and British control of the Great Lakes completed. (for the cost of the 1st rate St. Lawrence and the frigate Princess Charlotte)
July 7 - Ft. Biscayne (US fort at Miami) falls
July end - Spanish hold Tallahassee, Tampa Bay, Miami [OTL names]

 

[KingByng]

The war seems to have taken a turn for the better. How soon will the US realize the futility of fighting the world and s/u/r/r/e/n/d/e/r sign an amistice?

Unrelated: AH.com needs a strikethrough font.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

The war seems to have taken a turn for the better. How soon will the US realize the futility of fighting the world and s/u/r/r/e/n/d/e/r sign an amistice?

Unrelated: AH.com needs a strikethrough font.

As of late spring, at least, the US holds massive swatches of British/Canadian and Spanish land in the Protectorate and in East Florida, and have only lost a tiny sliver in upstate New York. While their effort is not going nearly as well has initially hoped, the US is still 'winning', and Clay, in particular, has a LOT of political capital invested in this. They also have a population MUCH larger than British North America, and almost half the size of Britain's. While, obviously the British will end up 'winning', and Canada be a MUCH larger nation than OTL, even I am not sure precisely how the war will end. I suspect the US defeat will end up being at least as much economic, social and in morale as military.

If Clay had been able to pull this off the year before, when the rail lines in Canada were much spottier, when telegraph was only starting, screw ships were a year more immature, and Norton rifles were in the hands of far fewer troops, then he would have been much, MUCH better off, and would surely have ended up with a goodly chunk of the protectorate back, and quite possibly Louisiana.

In fact without ASB (armoured steam boat) help, he would surely have had Louisiana even at this late date.

By now, he's really regretting that he hadn't been able to pull this off the previous year, but there was too much preparation necessary.

But... He still seriously believes he can win this war, even if it's not going to be quite as big a win as he had hoped.

As for the British/Canadian side, they're (ATM) just glad they haven't LOST already, and are just starting to think about 'winning', and how to go about that.

Now that you mention it, I should do a diplomatic/political post.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Politics and Diplomacy, part 1 – spring '43

Politics and Diplomacy, part 1 – spring '43

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]As of spring 1843, the US is 'winning' the war, with a large chunk of the Protectorate and all of East Florida occupied. True, pre-war expectation was for much bigger gains, the two invasions of Louisiana being much the biggest disappointment, but the US has the definite upper hand, at the moment. That being the case, Clay calls in the various ambassadors of Britain, New England, and Spain, and proposes peace based on current gains.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]He points out, to the British and Spanish, that they have to support any forces across the width of the ocean, while his can march to the front, that the US doesn't have commitments around the world tying down her forces, and that, since the US is going to win anyway, why not save everybody time and effort, and negotiate a settlement now? [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]To the Spanish, he points out that the great majority population of Florida (East and West) speaks English (when they speak any European language), so it's hardly 'Spanish' any more. The US is in possession of East Florida, for which they'd pay a token indemnity. And West Florida, while not occupied, is just going to be a real pain for Spain, so why not sell it now for a substantial sum?[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif](Note that the only troops Spain has landed in Florida at this moment are 3k from Cuba, which bolstered the defences of Pensacola and Mobile.)[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]To Britain, Clay proposes the US keep the southern half of the Protectorate, and proposes buying Missouri (say) for a substantial sum. And of course, he wants that thin strip of upstate NY back.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]To the New Englanders, he says basically 'this isn't your war, why don't you pull out, and we can work on trade concessions you might like'.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Since the Spanish haven't begun to fight yet, they're really not interested. They know that ramping up their forces is going take some time and be expensive, but they are prepared to put a lot more effort into the war than the US suspects, and want to at least TRY taking back Florida, first. Spanish honour is at stake here. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The US has invaded British soil, and you don't DO that to 'the Greatest Empire on Earth' and get away with it. Even if London was interested in signing away Canadian land, the Canadians of all descriptions are in a boiling rage, and any concessions now would seriously damage relations between Canada and the home isles. So that's a non-starter. Besides, as with Spain, Britain has only just begun serious mobilization and its diplomatic efforts for more allies are only starting to bear fruit. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]New Englanders have less at stake – but the US DID attack them (even if it was a pro forma sort of probe), and they're not going to abandon the alliance that keeps them safe. If they bailed on on the Brits, then next time it would be the US against them alone, they're afraid, and the Brits wouldn't step in. So, better to look to the future.[/FONT]




[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]While Clay has little expectation that all the ambassadors would agree to a peace at this point, he did hope that he could come to terms with at least one power. In any case, he has started negotiations, which makes him look less like a war-monger (or so he hopes), and it may lay the groundwork for future peace. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]One thing Clay doesn't realize, although some of his generals are starting to, is the flip side of his arguments to the ambassadors. While it is true that Spain and Britain have worldwide commitments tying down their forces, they also have worldwide resources they can pull from, given time. And while supporting troops across an ocean is a nasty problem, and his troops can walk to the theatre, conversely supplies are much more easily transported across water than across land. As for New England, it wouldn't have been their fight – if the US hadn't made it so. If the US had simply left New England alone, there would be a lot less support there for the war. Of course, since New England and British ships were in Long Island Sound, and the British would be basing out of New England ports, leaving them alone was … probably not going to happen.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Another thing he doesn't realise is that his terms are offensive to all his opponents, and only INCREASE the will to fight (for the short term at least). (A political cartoon that appears in British papers at time shows an Uncle Sam, holding a battered, dishevelled and bound girl labelled 'Florida' saying to her father 'Spain' : “Sir, I'd like to buy your daughter, but at a reduced price, since she isn't a virgin any more.” This becomes a widespread view among the allies of the Florida offer.)[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Clay really believes the US is still going to win this war, even if the final gains are quite as much as current holdings; and both are desperately below pre-war expectations. He's really kicking himself now that he didn't go to war the previous winter, but so much had to be prepared, they weren't ready. OTOH, the extra year allowed the Canadian rail lines to almost connect, which really helped the British effort, and telegraphs help too, again, even if THEY aren't all in place either. The force multiplying effect both those systems have for the Canadian theatre was simply not foreseen by Clay or most of the US military. Nor did anyone foresee the ironclads (especially the ones on the Mississippi – which were what caused the US invasion of Louisiana to fail). Clay figures that he'll end up with a reasonable chunk of the Protectorate and East Florida. More if he's lucky, or if countries are willing to sell at the end of a longer war.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Note that, even if the US had wanted peace, negotiations would have to cross the Atlantic a couple of times, and by then, who knows what the war situation would be like.[/FONT]

 

[Dan1988]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif] (A political cartoon that appears in British papers at time shows an Uncle Sam, holding a battered, dishevelled and bound girl labelled 'Florida' saying to her father 'Spain' : “Sir, I'd like to buy your daughter, but at a reduced price, since she isn't a virgin any more.” This becomes a widespread view among the allies of the Florida offer.)[/FONT]

That is sure one interesting cartoon.

Anyways, interesting update. On the New England front, I'm sure that it would want the military to make a huge dent into American territory, i.e. getting as much of Long Island as possible, and mention of "this isn't your war" would just make one drive up a wall. After all, techincally it IS New England's war (since at this point, due to the separate development of New England as an independent, no one would want to go back to being part of the US), and I'm sure New Englanders would be wary at whatever "trade concessions" the Americans might offer - i.e., re-annexation. By now, I'm sure that New England is probably going on the offensive at this point so as to keep the Americans as far away from the border as possible.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Atlantic Theatre, part 4 – New York area, spring/summer 1843

Dan, this one's just for you.




Atlantic Theatre, part 4 – New York area, spring/summer 1843

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]By April, the first shallow draft riverboat-like armoured vessels are launched. The first of these are screw propelled, but later versions have an armoured paddlewheel in the middle – like the Mississippi armoured riverboats. It turns out that at this stage of technology, paddlewheels do better in really shallow water. These boats are obviously lighter, and less well armed and armoured than the full up ironclads, but on the other hand they can get up the shallow back channels of New York, and shell Richmond (Staten Island) and Manhattan and the Bronx from the rear, where there aren't any shore batteries. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Even before the start of the war, the 5 cities that OTL would become New York were rather smaller iTTL than iOTL. New York City was built on trade, both internal and external. ITTL, the trade along the coast is not quite as great as iOTL (cotton from the Gulf is not transshipped there, but most other trade still exists, although even there there isn't quite as much, due to the weaker economic condition of TTL's US). However, international trade is much less than iOTL due to reasons discussed above; and even trade from the interior (along the Erie Canal) isn't as great, as the St. Lawrence CanalSystem has siphoned off some of that business. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Still, Manhattan is the largest single city in the US, and the other 4 cities are significant. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Once the war starts, and the Allies start bombarding the coastal cities like these 5, thousands of civilians flee. Others stay, but the bombardment causes destruction, not only from the shells themselves, but also from fires. Rubble from earlier shelling a) provides fuel for fires and b) impedes fire fighting, so multiple city blocks are gutted on several occasions. This, too, encourages people to leave.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Because the Allies control the strait between Long Island and the mainland, it quickly becomes difficult for the US to properly supply their forces there. Certainly, men and ammunition can cross at night – and often succeed in crossing, but it is difficult and before long it is deemed not worth the effort to maintain a major presence there. Not only is supply difficult, but with the war going badly on all the other fronts, leaving thousands of men sitting doing nothing – and that very expensively – seems a waste resources. Moreover, the main military base on Long Island was the Brooklyn naval yards, which have been almost totally destroyed by April and May of '43. So gradually, the US pulls out some of their military units there, and even the remaining units are undermanned and somewhat low in morale as soldiers who get sick or wounded are evacuated and not replaced.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The Allies send delegations to talk to the mayors of Brooklyn and Queens. If they agreed to be 'neutral' (which would involve ALL US soldiers leaving), the Allies would stop smashing their cities. The mayor of Brooklyn refuses flat out, while the mayor of Queens is tempted. However, the latter is overruled by the military commander on the island, by the State governor and by the Federal government. So Brooklyn and Queens fight on. Well, it's not really so much fighting as hunkering down and enduring punishment.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Come June, however, once all the crops are planted and the part-time militia are available, New England assembles and lands 40k militia troops from both sides of Long Island. They quickly cross the island and start building defences at the Nassau/Suffolk county line. Once they finish digging in, forces sweep across Suffolk county (the rural portion of Long Island), disarming the locals, stamping out any resistance, and announcing that this area now belongs again to New England.[1] While the troops are outnumbered by the locals (OTL Suffolk county held 32.5k in 1840, and that's about right for TTL, too as fewer people fled the rural areas, whereas only half the troops, some 20k are involved in the sweep)[2], most of the locals aren't armed men of fighting age – in fact many of the men of military age had been conscripted already and were elsewhere. Again, there are more people than that in Brooklyn and Queens, but again the number of soldiers is lower than what the New Englanders can have manning the defences, and by the time the US gets its act together and might assault it, the incipient defences provide enough cover that they can't succeed in breaking them. They try, of course, but the New Englanders still have most of their 40k in the line (building it – the sweep hadn't started yet), and an assault by US forces (including such military age civilian men that they can conscript), fails miserably as they are attacking against a superior force, in a defensive position (although not yet as dug in as it will be later), and attacking a much better armed foe. Ammunition for the US forces is limited to a single load out per soldier (say 30 rounds or so), and the civilians are armed with goodness knows what. Whereas the New England militia are all armed with modern Norton rifles, and all the ammo they can use.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Everyone is taken by surprise – the British just as much as the Americans. The British command is furious – those militia could have been far better used in Indiana, or elsewhere. However, the New Englanders reply that their militia troops can't be used outside the country[3], and that if the Brits really want to get huffy, the New Englanders can pack up their navy and return home. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The loss of Long Island is a HUGE blow for Clay and the US war effort. Not in any purely military sense, but in terms of morale. This is the first actual loss of US territory (except for the tiny sliver on the Quebec border, which was only taken because it was essentially uninhabited in the first place). [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Initially, the US response (particularly in New York State) is fury. They want the island back, and recruitment jumps massively. However, the situation on the island is a stalemate. The US really can't get many more troops across the channel and support them, and what's worse is that the cities of Queens and Brooklyn are fed by the farms on the rest of Long Island, and most of that is now cut off. While much of Nassau county is still semi-rural, and the population in the cities aren't going starve immediately, they ARE going to go hungry. And that's before winter sets in.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]On the other hand, the New Englanders can't do much more than what they've done. Sure, they landed 40k troops – but that's all they can pull together for this operation. If THEY wanted to take the rest of the island, it would take a LOT more troops than that. Sure, 20k behind a (constantly improving) defensive line can hold off anything the US can throw at them, but equally, as the US builds their one facing works, the New Englanders don't have the force to assault that. Or if they did, then what. Taking the cities, street by street? When the locals hate them and know all the hiding places? Hardly.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Besides which, the 'waste' of Allied effort this action represents means that New England ends up having to provide more troops outside the country than they had planned, to make up for the damage to the Alliance their unilateral action caused. [4][/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]So several New England militia regiments move out to help garrison Halifax, for instance, freeing Maritime troops for use elsewhere, and other regiments take part in joint action on Lake Champlain.[5][/FONT]












–
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1 this is approximately where Connecticut had claimed as a border before 1664.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]2 OTL, Queens had 30k about half each in what's now Queens and Nassau Counties, Suffolk county – the rural part of the island had 32.5k, Brooklyn had 47.6k whereas Manhattan had 313k. ITTL, Suffolk is about the same, Queens has 23k, Brooklyn 38k, Manhattan ~250k.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]3 this is partly, but not entirely true. New England militia still has much of the mindset of many state militias from the previous war – that no one can force them to serve 'in foreign lands'. Many militia units then refused to cross into Canada. Some refused to go further than the next state, even. These New England militias have improved to the point where they're willing to go anywhere within New England, but service outside is strictly voluntary. This means that staffing garrisons in Plattsburgh or Halifax, say, where rotation home is possible can be done, which frees up the Canadian/Maritimer/British troops that would otherwise be necessary, that actively serving in e.g. Indiana gets very, very few volunteers. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The invasion of Long Island is justified as 'recovering New England' territory. This is a bit of a stretch, as it had been part of New York since 1664[6]. More realistically, that it WILL be New England territory after the invasion, which e.g. Indiana won't be, any way, any how. [/FONT]




[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]4 Britain and Canada press New England over the issue during the war (which has little effect), and after, as troops that are restricted to New England are not much use to the alliance, in general. New England, once again points to her navy and says 'what's this, chopped liver?' (well, not in those words). Still, the upshot in the near term is a handful of regiments are shaken loose for use 'next door', while in the longer run New England massively increases her Marine force, to serve in place of a national army (which will be able to used overseas), but keeps her militia largely as it is, although with some better national command and supply mechanisms. (So, effectively the Army of New England is not only junior to the navy, but PART of it!) [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]5 this should be covered later.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]6 see the map Dan1998 posted on page 42 of this thread.[/FONT]

 

[Dan1988]

And I'm lovin' it. Though, since as you mentioned the '5 Boroughs' were fed by farms on Long Island anyway, I would think that despite Suffolk Country being under New England control (or, more properly, the control of the State of Connecticut - the state making the claims in the first place), the farms would be allowed to export some stuff, so long as it's not for military use, thereby not disrupting any trade patterns. This is because, as you mentioned, New England's armed forces are undermanned for the job, so the export of agriculture to the Manhattan/Brooklyn/Queens area would be allowed to continue, in addition to farming for subsistence and some export to "Mainland" New England.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

I was assuming, possibly incorrectly, that Manhattan and the Bronx would have been fed from the mainland, and Richmond=Staten Island from New Jersey.

It would only have been Brooklyn and Queens that would have been fed from the rest of Long Island, I think. And even then, I'll bet that some of the prewar food production went to the major cities of New England.

The New Englanders, and the Allies once they get their minds around the idea of having Long Island, are going to want the cities on the island to be hungry, as it increases the pressure for them to deal/go neutral/whatever. And reduces the ability of the US to threaten Allied control of the rest of the island.

As for the farms on New England held Long Island, they don't need to sell to the US to survive - they can sell to the Allies. With so much of Canada's agriculture disrupted, the Brits are going to want to buy as much agricultural produce as possible. The locals are going to be paid in hard currency (not the US dollar which will be tanking again), and have good markets. This will end up easing the transition to their new country.

So, most assuredly, there is NOT going to be trade across the new national border.

 

[trekchu]

Just for clarification for an Euro who isn't very sharp on US Geography: The NE/US Border will run right across long Island?

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Just for clarification for an Euro who isn't very sharp on US Geography: The NE/US Border will run right across long Island?

Right. Sorry. Yes. If you look at a map, it's about where the Connecticut/NY border continued south would be.

Alternately, it's about the edge of modern day New York City. The US will keep the tip that has 2 boroughs of OTL's NYC, the rest of the island goes to New England.

Or at least that's the plan at the moment. The US will, of course, try to change that, at the negotiating table, if they don't succeed militarily.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Florida theatre, part 2 : August-October 1843

Florida theatre, part 2 : August-October 1843

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]By August, Spain has 50k troops either landed in Florida, or ready to do so. Of these, 4k are cavalry which are shipped to the Tejas theatre, in exchange for 4k British and Allied troops (2 regiments each of British West Indian, EIC and Portuguese African troops). Florida is mostly horrible terrain for cavalry, the cavalry are all European whites (and so are happy to be away from the disease infested swamps), and the replacement troops are all tropical. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Advancing from their bases at Tallahassee, Tampa Bay and Biscayne [OTL Miami, remember], the Spanish push back the Americans.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Meanwhile, supported by the Spanish Navy and the RN, a raid is made up the Satilla River [far southern Georgia], and British ironclads duel with the forts there while enough soldiers are landed to take out the railway bridge, and begin ripping up track. They actually land some railway flat cars to carry supplies, and a force proceeds down the track towards the St. Mary's River [OTL Georgia/Florida border], ripping up the rail behind them. An iron clad stays nearby to keep any significant rebuilding from happening at the moment. However, once the forts are neutralized and the rail wreckers are out of sight, the bulk of the troops re-embark and head south.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Now that the supply line to the rest of the US is cut, the next step is a similar operation which enters the St. Mary's River , and the bridge and forts there are taken. This time, however, instead of razing the forts and destroying the bridge, the Spanish land about half their total force here and build strong forts to protect themselves from attacks from the north (eventually) or from the south (coming up from the main US army base in Pinckney [OTL Jacksonville] on those rails). [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The US was taken completely by surprise, as they had only expected the attacks to come in from the periphery, mostly overland, and the initial pushes of this campaign just confirmed that thought. Moreover, they didn't believe the Spanish could or would come up with that many troops. So many of the US troops that HAD been in Pinckney were rushed west and south to fight what was believed to be the main attack. This meant that there simply weren't enough available troops to rush north and stop the landing, and by the time the US can organize its forces, the Spanish are ensconced on the St. Mary's, and have enough men, supplies, fortifications, cannon and ammunition to make a US attack suicidal.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Once the rail wreckers reach the St. Mary's, they join the rest of the force, which is more than 20k strong[1]. The Spanish build forts on both sides of the St. Mary's, and leave the bridge standing. However they have both rigged to blow if (or when) the US manages to get a sufficiently large army to the north bank of the river.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The cutting of the rail at Satilla gave the Spanish the breathing room to prepare their positions on the St. Mary's. And that position stopped cold the US resupply to their forces in Florida. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Thus the US forces are cut off from any help or resupply, and they are surrounded by a tightening noose of approaching armies. The total US force in the territory was amply sufficient to defeat any individual prong of the Spanish overland attack, but the Spanish forces refused to cooperate. Any point where the US gathered a strong force for a counter-offensive, the Spanish just retreated. But anywhere the US forces were weak (possibly to allow said offensive), the Spanish would win. Moreover, the local blacks and Seminoles conducted guerilla warfare, attriting armies on the march (if they were small enough), cutting supply lines and taking out isolated posts and sentries. So, slowly, the US was forced to withdraw to the northeast coast (Pinckney and St. Augustine) where they had their main bases. But the less ground the US forces hold, the fewer farms to support them, and with the cut off of the seas (since early in the campaign) and the rail line (just recently), the US supply situation gets worse and worse. Even before the major Spanish attack when they controlled almost al of Florida, a significant portion of the US food was brought in by rail. Now they face hunger or even starvation (in addition to running out of ammunition). [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]General Charles, in command of the US forces, realizes that his situation is untenable. His first efforts, to break the closing noose, fail as mentioned above, as every time he tries to land a heavy blow the Spanish back off and refuse battle. He can't do anything about control of the sea. So his choices boil down to : either attack the Spanish force on the St. Mary's, thus re-establishing connexion with the US, or surrender. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]So Charles pulls in troops from many of the surrounding forts, organizes what supplies he has left, and marches north along the rail line from Pinckey. He has just under 20k men with him (he still needs to hold the two cities and some of the perimeter forts – and many of his men are down with tropical illnesses and can't march, besides some of his troops have already been killed/taken prisoner). [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]He also sneaks messengers north around the Spanish positions and asks for an attack from the north, to take the Spaniards in a pincer. What he hasn't realized is how thorough the Spanish destruction of the rail between those two rivers was, and how difficult it is going to be for the US to effectively respond. Still, the Georgia militia manages to get a force (about 5k strong) across and marches towards the St. Mary's, preceded and protected by cavalry units.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Charles and his army arrive near St.Mary's and start to dig in. They expect Georgian assistance any day now, and so they don't attack, but rather prepare defences. The Georgians arrive 4 days later, but they number only about 5k, which was rather less than General Charles had hoped for. The US forces make a coordinated attack, but although they outnumber the Spanish (who only have 20k effectives, as 5k of their men are down sick), they don't outnumber them by much, and the Spanish are behind defences, are well fed and are well-armed. The Spanish also have control over the river, so Charles can't get his men across in any significant numbers, either to attack the weaker fort on the north bank or to escape back to the US. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]On the other hand, the Spanish ARE outnumbered, and can't sortie and counter-attack very well. It's a bit of a stalemate, so the US forces dig in and try besieging the Spanish. Unfortunately for them, the Spanish can be resupplied by river, and the US forces have rather more difficulty with supplies. The RN raids the Satilla River again, so the new bridge is destroyed, too, and destroys some of the supplies meant for the Georgia militia. They, however, even if a bit hungry and slightly low on ammunition, are OK. General Charles' forces, however, have no resupply aside from what was stored in Pinckney when the rail was cut, and food is running low, and ammunition even lower.[2][/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Besides, the removal of the vast majority of effectives from the Pinckney area means that the Spanish attacking overland (who can be resupplied by sea south of St. Augustine, now that the US perimeter has shrunk that much), means that some of the perimeter forts start falling.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]To add insult to injury, the RN brings a couple of ironclads up the St.John's River to shell Pinckney.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Since General Charles can't seem to win any (significant) engagement, since he's running out of supplies, and since he can't even protect his own people, he finally decides he has to surrender. It really grates on him, because he hasn't LOST any significant engagement, really, either, but he's not going to win this one, and better to protect his men, and especially the civilians he's supposed to be protecting.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]So General Charles surrenders to the Spanish on October 28. [/FONT]


–
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1 While the US has some 35k troops in Florida (5k up from the original invasion force), well over half of them are scattered across Florida in various small forts. While, if they were all pulled back they might have taken the Spanish position on the St. Mary's (especially before the Spanish managed much in the way of fortifications), that would have abandoned the entire territory to the Spanish forces attacking overland (not to mention the Seminoles and local blacks). [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]2 Even before the rail link was cut, the US forces were low on ammunition because of general supply constraints for the whole country.[/FONT]

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Indiana theatre, part 5 : Fort Francis and vicinity, April 1843

Indiana theatre, part 5 : Fort Francis and vicinity, April 1843



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]After the fall of Ft. Francis on April 2, the US forces salvage what supplies they can from the wreck of the fort. All the gunpowder went up in the explosion, but many of the guns themselves, both rifles and cannon, are mostly usable (possibly with some repair work). Cannon balls for the cannon are fine, but the pre-made shells went up with the gunpowder. Similarly, such individual rounds for the rifles had been pre-prepared were mostly destroyed, but the raw supply of lead for bullets, and the moulds for casting them mostly survived. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]As for food, the canned goods left in the fort mostly survived, although many were scorched or soaked by the firefighting efforts after, so the labels came off and it wasn't possible to tell what was actually inside the tins. Some of the tins had their seams give, and leaked some of their contents before being salvaged. Of the bulk, dry food, some was fine, some was scorched, or had their containers (barrels or sacks) disrupted by the explosions. But where there were piles of supplies, often it was only the top or nearest layer that was damaged. OTOH, the fort had been massively over crowded from day one, and many of the supplies had already been consumed – so the bonanza that the US Army had expected wasn't as rich as they had hoped. Moreover, they now had to support all the prisoners from the fort. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The US quartermasters grabbed all the canned goods for use of their Army – the idea of e.g. peaches IN THE SPRING, especially when they'd been living on largely cornmeal and salt meat, was too good to pass up. Of course, not all the cans were peaches, by a long shot, and so it was always a bit of a mystery come meal time what would be served.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The quartermasters also grabbed much of the wheat flour and some of the oats, to help vary the diet of the US soldiers, plus of course the cured meat, leaving the prisoners with some of the scorched and otherwise mildly damaged goods, and exchanging some cornmeal (which the Canadians weren't fond of, but too bad) for the wheat flour. The rye flour and dried peas were also left for the prisoners, as the US soldiers weren't as interested in those.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The seized foodstuffs were parcelled out to the local US military. Since they were heavy, they only went to the local commissary in Vincennes, and to the posts up and down the rail line that the US controlled – particularly to the sieges of Ft. Liverpool and Ft. Brock. There, the besieging armies revelled in the variety of new foods, so very different from the cornmeal and salt pork they'd mostly been eating. Canned fruit, in the spring was, in particular, a wildly desired delicacy. The canned goods tasted a bit funny[1], but they were a change. So they were served out to the entire force. Unfortunately, over the next day or two, soldiers started coming down with various symptoms. Some got wild diarrhoea and vomiting, others suffered from double vision and paralysis, while others showed no symptoms at all. In all, some 10% of the forces who ate from the bad tins died or had to be invalided out of the army. And in the meantime, about a quarter of the besiegers were sick enough to temporarily not be able to fight. Many other soldiers had to care for the sick, and morale took a beating. There were suspicions that the British poisoned the supplies, but an investigation quickly ruled that out.[2][/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The soldiers inside the forts could tell that something was wrong in the US lines, and made sorties. The group at Ft. Brock [near OTL's Centralia Illinois], being smaller and isolated, didn't dare take many chances, and were only able to do minor damage to the the siege. However, the group at Ft. Liverpool was larger, and were in intermittent contact with the outside forces[3]. So they risked a major attack while the US forces were distracted, and managed to set fire to the shields protecting the sapping lines AND to some of the supplies in the rear. When one of the US ammunition magazines went up, they were well satisfied. (One of. The US had their ammunition spread out into 3 magazines, partly in case of raids, but more in case of accidental explosions.) The sortie also distributed mines (and even more packages that LOOKED like mines) into the sapping trenches, so that all those had to be carefully defused before the sapping work could continue.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]So, the result was the siege of Ft. Brock was hardly delayed beyond the time necessary for the recovery (and replacement) of the poisoned soldiers; while the siege of Ft. Liverpool was set back rather more than that. The loss of supplies (especially gunpowder) at Ft. Liverpool was a particular problem, because the US is running low across the board.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The situation with the US forces at and around Ft. Francis was even more dire, in some ways. Firstly, there were the men physically killed or injured when the forts ammunition magazine blew up, there were more men there. Secondly, many of the soldiers who climbed over the walls of the fort, even if they escaped before the fort blew, got horribly infected wounds. You see, the latrines of the fort were never meant to handle as many people as were in the fort, so sewage was dumped over the walls. Since the attackers had to climb sewage slimy walls, even what should have been trivial scratches were quite likely to go bad. And thirdly, the base, being the major siege AND the main base for the whole front, was much larger than either of the sieges. Even if they had slightly lower casualty RATES (better care let a higher percentage survive food poisoning), the absolute numbers were higher. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The US invasion force is rather down in strength. In the previous months they'd lost about 5k men (to disease and fighting) in the sieges and about 2k along the Maumee (mostly disease), and now they've lost another 1k in the explosion and 7k or so now (including some militia at Vincennes). So the active siege force is down from ~50k to ~40k now. (About 4k of the 7k gradual losses were replaced, so they're not 15k down).[4] Still, they can take most of the survivors of the Ft. Francis assault and redistribute them at Ft. Liverpool and Ft. Brock. With the need to guard the PoWs and the lines out to both forts and garrison the remains of Ft. Francis, they can't quite put a full 20k in front of each of the two remaining forts, and they certainly can't try to take the fight on to Indianapolis, as they had once hoped. Fort Liverpool, being the larger target gets 25k (the number that besieged Ft. Francis), and Ft. Brock gets about 12-13k. [/FONT]




–
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1 note that this is still in the early days of the canning industry. Early efforts had mostly worked with smaller cans, but to be 'efficient', about half the canned goods supplied to the forts was in larger sizes – 1-5 gallons. However, it turns out that the largest practical size for tinned goods is the #10 size of modern markets, very roughly 2/3 of an Imperial gallon, ¾ of a US gallon or 3L. Above that size, you either heat it so much the flavour goes off, or you don't sufficiently sterilize the contents, leading to risk of botulism or other food poisoning. This was not discovered iTTL yet, since, as I said, most of the canning/tinning efforts had used smaller sizes, where this wasn't a problem. The other problem with these tins is that they hadn't figured out the lead solder problem yet. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]iOTL, the first major problem with tinned goods was that the tin plated sheets that were rolled up to form a tin can were soldered together. Usual solders contain lead, and it's way too easy for the lead to seep into the food. If you eat a diet heavy on tinned goods, you end up with lead poisoning. OTL the last and lost Franklin expedition to the Arctic suffered from this. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin's_lost_expedition] The lead poisoning may have affected some of their decisions to abandon the ships, for instance, and where to go thereafter. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]However, the lead problem is more chronic, and the defenders were not as heavily dependant on tinned goods as Franklin's expedition was iOTL. Nor were they consuming them for as long a period of time. The defenders, and the US consumers of these goods, are going to have mild lead poisoning, but the veterans' syndrome won't be tracked down until after the war. [/FONT]




[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]2 OK, you ask, why didn't the defenders notice the problem? And if they did, why didn't they warn the US? The defenders did notice that food in the larger containers 'tasted funny'. Since they had other food, and, in particular, had tinned goods in smaller tins that DIDN'T taste funny, they ate those first. (Actually one group that ate one of the larger cans got food poisoning, and with vomiting and diarrhoea, but in close confines like the fort, that wasn't entirely unusual, and wasn't connected to the consumption of tinned food.) Standingpine did mention the odd taste to one of the American officers, but the news didn't get up the line. Moreover, peaches in the spring, even if they taste funny, still taste better than possibly rancid salt pork! So no one thinks it a problem until the US soldiers start getting sick. At which point, the fact that Standingpine HAD mentioned the problem comes up, so there isn't any question of the Brits having deliberately poisoned the food, or anything. [/FONT]




[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]3 they know, for instance, that Ft. Tecumseh and Indianapolis have been relieved. While they're aware that that's the high-water mark for the British spring counter-offensive, they have every hope that they, too, can be relieved if they can just hold out long enough for the full force of the British Empire to be gathered. So they REALLY have incentive to slow down and reverse the US siege. Whereas the guys at Ft. Brock HOPE to be relieved, but don't really believe it can happen in time.[/FONT]




[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]4 There are some losses on the *Illinois occupation force, due to disease, injury and guerilla attacks, but they're not being replaced at the moment.

------
retcon: the 1k from the 'explosion' now counts the all victims of the taking of the fort, including those with infected wounds, those who broke a leg in the rush in and out, etc.
[/FONT]

 

[stevep]

Dathi

Just caught up after my holiday. Good to see this active again.

Sound's like Clay's basically got the position of the monkey who grabbed the nut in the bottle and finds he can't remove his fist. He can't afford politically to give up on the war but is gradually going to come to realise he can't win it. Even so this is taking time and being bloody costly, in men and money, for all concerned. Can't see the various allies making peace at anything less than the pre-war position and New England, is obviously intent on making gains. Not sure Spain or Britain/Canada would benefit from, or probably even look for significant territorial gain but they will want their land back and to punish the US and increase their security against a later attack. As such the war could last some time yet and the US, facing a significant economic/technological disadvantage is likely to suffer disproportionately with military/related casualties. At the same time just about anything within range of any water source, which will be much of their population and economy, is likely to get increasingly pounded into rubble. This is going to set them back quite a while I suspect.

How is Manhattan/New Tork being fed? Its got a substantial urban population. While food can be carted in from neighbouring farms or boated down the Hudson its not just lost any food from Long Island. Stuff from fishing and coastal trade will also be lost with the tightening blockade. Also while river and rail links make bringing food in possible the level of conscription probably mean total agricultural output has dropped and those same transport links will see heavy demands for moving men, munitions, supplies for the troops, items for the military industries etc. As such there is probably a significant inflation in food prices in urban areas and at least some hunger for the poorer elements.

I could see the most likely trigger for the ending of the conflict being less allied troops marching through the big US cities, or even defeats of all the US armies and more unrest, possibly rioting in the US itself as weariness becomes anger.

Do you think things might be going a bit too badly for the US. The explosion at the fort causing a lot of losses, including supplies, then food poisoning from what's left. Coupled with just about everything going wrong just about everywhere. The US is seriously outclassed with the much greater resources available to the empire and its allies but it does seem to be distinctly short of luck. While I don't think there's been much incompetence in the allied forces at the moment, which is bound to appear to see degree in forces that haven't seen serious fighting for some time.

Anyway, a very good TL. Looking forward to seeing more.

Steve

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

How is Manhattan/New Tork being fed? Its got a substantial urban population. While food can be carted in from neighbouring farms or boated down the Hudson its not just lost any food from Long Island. Stuff from fishing and coastal trade will also be lost with the tightening blockade. Also while river and rail links make bringing food in possible the level of conscription probably mean total agricultural output has dropped and those same transport links will see heavy demands for moving men, munitions, supplies for the troops, items for the military industries etc. As such there is probably a significant inflation in food prices in urban areas and at least some hunger for the poorer elements.

You can barge just about any amount down the Hudson. I'd suspect that that's where a good half of Manhattan's food came from. I don't suppose that VERY much of Manhattan's food came from Long Island. If anyone else has data, I'd love to know.

I could see the most likely trigger for the ending of the conflict being less allied troops marching through the big US cities, or even defeats of all the US armies and more unrest, possibly rioting in the US itself as weariness becomes anger.

Ja, I think that's likely possible. Unless the war REALLY drags out, the US is going to be able to field at least as many soldiers, I think, as Britain, although the fall's loss of the FLorida force will hurt badly.

My GUESS (I still haven't worked everything out yet), is that at ceasefire, the US will hold a chunk of OTL's Illinois, but will be exhausted, and not be able to get Long Island back. Spain will (likely) hold all of Florida, including 'Pinckney' that's been American for a generation. Spain's going to end up having far more leverage than Britain will, I think.

Do you think things might be going a bit too badly for the US. The explosion at the fort causing a lot of losses, including supplies, then food poisoning from what's left. Coupled with just about everything going wrong just about everywhere. The US is seriously outclassed with the much greater resources available to the empire and its allies but it does seem to be distinctly short of luck. While I don't think there's been much incompetence in the allied forces at the moment, which is bound to appear to see degree in forces that haven't seen serious fighting for some time.

Anyway, a very good TL. Looking forward to seeing more.

Steve

Hmm... Let me think about that.
I had planned for the forts to stocked with 5 gallon tins of canned goods ages ago. I just learned, during my hiatus, and from another board, the problem with large tins. If I didn't see it, the locals probably won't either. But when I realized what the consequences would be, I ran with it.

You may have a point about the numbers made sick/killed. My reasoning was that many of the tins are opened in a major celebration of the victory, and that each soldier would have something out of multiple tins. Not all the tins will be bad, and so some would come down with botulism (paralysis) and others other kinds of food poisoning. I've actually got 75% (of those partaking) escaping ANY serious problem, which seemed like it might actually be generous.

Botulin is really nasty stuff, and AFAIK doesn't always make food taste spoiled. In fact, the stuff that was heated through (i.e. overcooked for most of the volume) may possibly taste more 'off' than some of the 'bad' stuff.

1k men inside the fort when it blew is excessive. Even if people outside the fort got hit by flying debris, it's kind of high. I should probably also have more of the PoWs hit by flying debris, too. Note that any kids that were inside the fort are probably going to have developmental difficulties with that lead poisoning, even if the adults can more or less shrug it off.

I also suspect that I'm going to have to have the defenders of Ft. Brock start eating their large cans and having the same problems the US forces had, which will help the US besiegers. Not quite sure how to handle that.


Hmmm... I do need to have a doofus Allied general foul up, now, don't I

 

[Ming777]

Nahh.....remmeber the title of the tread. As long as it's within reasonable limits, it should be fine to keep messing up the Americans.