Canada Wank (YACW)
- Thread starter Dathi THorfinnsson
- Start date
- Status
Dathi
Sorry to hear about you're health problems, especially since it sounds like their been worse recently.
Good to hear from you at all as beginning to wonder what had happened. Very good to hear the TL will be back but take it steady. You're well-being is far more important and especially now we know it will be reviving I don't think anyone will be worried about waiting a bit longer. [Will also need to read up on the TL myself to remind me what the hell was going on].
Good look at hope to hear from you soon.
Steve
Sorry to hear about you're health problems, especially since it sounds like their been worse recently.
Good to hear from you at all as beginning to wonder what had happened. Very good to hear the TL will be back but take it steady. You're well-being is far more important and especially now we know it will be reviving I don't think anyone will be worried about waiting a bit longer. [Will also need to read up on the TL myself to remind me what the hell was going on
]. Good look at hope to hear from you soon.
Steve
Dathi
Sorry to hear about you're health problems, especially since it sounds like their been worse recently.
Good to hear from you at all as beginning to wonder what had happened. Very good to hear the TL will be back but take it steady. You're well-being is far more important and especially now we know it will be reviving I don't think anyone will be worried about waiting a bit longer. [Will also need to read up on the TL myself to remind me what the hell was going on
Good look at hope to hear from you soon.
Steve
I agree - hope things get better soon, Daði. In the meantime - is it possible that I might do a spinoff of this?
To try and appease Britannia, the Maple Leaf and the AH gods in General and speed the healing of the Author, I made a slightly edited version of the ULTRA Canada Map of waaaay back in 1280x1024 JPEG meant as a wallpaper!
Obviously the legend has been moved Southern Mexico/Central America removed.
http://imageshack.us
Obviously the legend has been moved Southern Mexico/Central America removed.
http://imageshack.us
Hey, stay healthy. It won't kill us to wait. (It'll just feel like it.
) Count me waiting eagerly.Question about the above map: shouldn't it be something other than Oregon Terriory? New Caledonia, say?
Last edited:
Mississippi theatre, part 3 : January 1843
Next installment. Gah... this took forever to write. Sorry.
Mississippi theatre, part 3 : January 1843
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The morning after the main battle, the British look around and see what a disaster they have. They have on hand 11k troops who are still effective, and they need many more than that. The first priority has to be to deal with the battle ground on the west bank of the river. There are 4k surrendered troops, and 6k American wounded. Those almost outnumber the effective British troops on hand. Sure, they're 'surrendered', but what if they decide to 'unsurrender'? Moreover, there are still the 3k US troops dug into Baton Rouge (the 'invalid camp'), the 4k who fled the battlefield (mostly northwards), the 'wounded/sick' camp up by Rojo, and thousands of US soldiers in penny-packets up the river stranded in various places.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Moreover, trying to give proper care to the thousands of seriously wounded on this battlefield is a huge problem. There are some 6k US wounded and 2k+ British.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The dead are slightly less of a problem. While digging any kind of graves for thousands of bodies quickly is a major task, it is a task the the PoWs can legitimately be put to – and they don't mind so much, as most of the dead are their own. While the captured PoWs are depressed because they're captured and their attack failed, they do get some solace from the following facts: 1) they are finally being fed (their food had pretty much run out before the attack), 2) their wounded were being treated better than they could have done (medical supplies were a lower priority in the hellish trip south than food and ammunition were), and 3) their dead were being buried respectfully.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]General Quincy made several arrangements on the morning of the 4th. He sent a small party under flag of truce to the US force dug into Baton Rouge, and made them a proposition; he sent messages both south (to New Orleans) north (to Winchester) screaming for help, both for more troops, and for instructions on how to deal with such a massive number of prisoners; he sent a message north under white flag to Memphis warning them of the outcome and asking that prisoner exchange negotiations be considered. He also started to deal with the military mop up operation.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]However, his current force of 11k is woefully inadequate to deal with the various calls on his forces. He could cheerfully use all 11k to retake Baton Rouge, to deal with the battlefield mess, to deal with the invalid camp or to sweep the banks of the Mississippi for stragglers. Unfortunately, he doesn't HAVE 4 forces that size, he has one.[/FONT]
Baton Rouge
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The proposition for the US forces in Baton Rouge was basically a ceasefire for several days, with no fighting to be resumed until the truce was called off by one side or the other. In the meantime, Quincy expects the US forces to treat the civilians in Baton Rouge with honour and the soldiers are to maintain discipline. The battle on the western bank was an overwhelming British victory, and the US forces were in a pretty hopeless position there. OTOH, dealing with the aftermath of the battle meant that taking them out now would be expensive, and do serious damage to the town. And, again, they might reasonably not believe the scale of the British victory. He offers a small party of US officers to come across and visit the battlefield to see for themselves. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]On the American side, they are running low on ammunition, especially for their Hall Rifles, they're currently safe, they can't take on the rest of Louisiana all by themselves, so waiting for the situation to jell makes a lot of sense. They can't actively accomplish anything now. And in the meantime, they are of some military use to the US, simply by tieing down some of Quincy's forces. So they're prepared to wait. On the other hand, if the US should win (probably by the attack through Tejas, but possibly by another attack south), then they can still be on the winning side. And even if they should have to eventually surrender, they're a big enough force they should be able to negotiate reasonable terms. So, these soldiers are in no hurry to surrender for now.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Actually, Quincy's first offer, which he thought was entirely reasonable, was for the Baton Rouge force to surrender their arms and be transported north out of British territory. However, Brigadier Albert Green [1] the commanding officer felt that staying a thorn in the British side in town and waiting reinforcements was more appropriate. Once that offer was refused, Quincy considered retaking Baton Rouge before dealing with the 'invalid' camp, but decided that the Baton Rouge force was 'safe' for the moment, and stable for now, the only task at hand where he could say that.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Unstated, but understood by both sides is that this time gives the US forces there the opportunity to dig in and make a military assault very expensive. [/FONT]
Southern help
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The appeal for help south to New Orleans was ineffectual. While the message travelled fairly quickly, being able to go downstream on the river, the governor had his hands full and could spare no men and little consideration for the northern defence force. He still had to deal with the attack out of Tejas, which was yet to come, and deal with unrest in New Orleans and the south. While the US plans of uprisings came to nought, he couldn't really trust the American community and had to keep a close watch on them. Moreover, he was rather annoyed at being subordinated to overall command in a single North American theatre – so his response was essentially 'ask Winchester for help, I have none to spare'. In fact, the governor strongly hints that Quincy should be supplying HIM with troops, at least until the promised reinforcements arrived.[/FONT]
Northern help
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The appeal for help north to Missouri and Winchester is also ineffectual for the moment, although will bear fruit later. Missouri is swamped with their own problems, and the communication lags are such that Winchester simply can't reply before the end of the month. Then, too, the Indiana theatre is taking precedence, and logistics are awful. Once reinforcements arrive, well, we'll see then. [/FONT]
Military mop up on the West Bank near Baton Rouge
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Quincy organized several small operations with relatively small numbers of men. The largest group was a handful of regiments to head north, to block off the retreat of the fleeing US soldiers. A smaller group (just some scouts) was sent to check out the 'invalid' camp near the Rojo. He also formally organizes a brown-water naval patrol of the Mississippi to keep the US from trying to reinforce or resupply or reorganize their forces. The bulk of his men are still tied down at the site of the battle, caring for the wounded (from both sides) and guarding prisoners.[/FONT]
blocking force
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]While some 4k Americans had fled (mostly back north), they fled as individuals and small bands, and Quincy figured (correctly, as it later turned out), that 2-3k disciplined soldiers across their retreat path could deal with most of them and get them to surrender. The biggest problem was moving them south under guard, without draining the blocking force too much. Over the next week or so, this force rounds up some 2.5k of the 4 retreating soldiers, some 500 made it to the 'invalid' camp and a thousand were unaccounted for.[2][/FONT]
Riverine patrols
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]As long as the Brits have total control over the lower Mississippi, the thousands of lost and separated US forces can be dealt with in detail. If the 'invalid camp' and Baton Rouge get no reinforcements nor resupply, they can not become a serious threat. (Well, not a serious military threat. They could be a serious brigand threat if they dispersed.) Similarly, there are some 10k troops who disappeared from the US force as it came down the river. At this point, no one knows how many of them were killed (in battle or drowned), and how many made it to one shore or the other. The British suspect that those men are mostly alive and could be a major threat if they were allowed to regroup and join an effective US force (whether it be the 'invalid camp' at the Rojo, the smaller group at Baton Rouge, or even enough of them banded together to be a threat.) If they are denied use of the river, they are much less of a threat.[/FONT]
Rojo/invalid camp
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The 'invalid camp', augmented by stragglers who landed north of the Rojo and made it across, or were otherwise separated from the main force, is Quincy's biggest worry at the moment. It has the largest grouping of US soldiers who haven't surrendered, approximately 5k[3]. While it is true that the group in Baton Rouge is likely a more effective force militarily, that group is in a stable situation, whereas the 'invalid' group up by the Rojo/Red is much more volatile. Moreover, he has little idea of what their capabilities are, and how well they are supplied, so if he doesn't deal with them on his timetable, they may make another lunge south to Baton Rouge, or turn bandit, or most anything.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]As it happens, most of them had been too injured or sick to make the march south, and most of those are still not in any shape to fight. Moreover, many of the stragglers who joined them later were rather dispirited, and thus not eager to fight. In addition, many of the previously healthy soldiers came down with dysentery or other illnesses. The morale of this group was low to start with and dropped further as time progressed without news of the invasion force. Worse, once news did come with the few scattered remnants who ran away from the west bank battle and who managed to elude the blocking force. The tales they tell of that battle are truly gruesome tales, and massively exaggerate the British strength. So, when Quincy started to move against their position, a couple of weeks later, landing more and more soldiers to their south, the General commanding, Thomas A Smith[4], was willing to surrender and have his wounded properly cared for. Not only was he worried about his sick, but he knew he didn't have full control of his troops, so if he HAD ordered an attack or move in some direction, he might not have been obeyed.[/FONT]
Discussions with Memphis
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Messages are carried up river on boat to Memphis where fast couriers can carry messages to Louisville, at which point the optical semaphore net can carry the news east.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The news of the disaster causes consternation in Washington when it arrives in mid-January. The 3 pronged plan (2 invasions and an insurrection at the same time) was supposed to have been a 'cunning plan that cannot fail', but so far one wheel has come off (2 wheels actually, but they haven't found out that the insurrection failed yet). They still hold hope that the Tejas hook of the 1-2 punch will knock out the British in Louisiana, but in the mean time, any soldiers that manage to make their way back are placed in defence.… As word of the failed (prevented, actually) insurrection and the failure of the invasion from Tejas arrive by the end of the month, worries mount. Note that the original US plan was to make a sharp attack and take Louisiana with a concentrated blow. If this succeeded, which they thought was guaranteed, then the US would have a friendly neighbour to the west (Mexico in charge of Texas), their hostile frontier would have been massively diminished, and most of the invasion troops could then be used in Florida or Canada. Now, however, they've just lost a significant chunk of their best trained military, and they are suddenly faced with defending the entire length of the Mississippi from the Red River to the Ohio. Moreover, the British have overwhelming superiority on the Mississippi now, so that that major supply route is closed to the US even for e.g. moving supplies between cities on the American side. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Quincy starts trying to negotiate prisoner exchanges (preferably under parole), but most of the prisoner exchange will have to wait for a general agreement and a more settled outcome for the war. Or at least higher level negotiations between e.g. Winchester (or London) and Washington. In the meantime, however, triages the wounded US soldiers and transports to Memphis all the the sickest prisoners, the amputees, and basically anyone that he figures won't be able to fight for at least a year. Since they won't be able to get back in the fight, he feels it safe, and he has been having some problems supplying his own men. While he can bill this as a 'humanitarian gesture', 'returning poor wounded soldiers home', it also decreases his supply problems and increases the US's. [/FONT]
–
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1 ATL character, born after the PoD[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]2 to this day, it's not clear just what happened to all these men. A few turned themselves in later or were caught and a few made it across the Mississippi back to the US eventually. The best guesses of modern scholars is that many died in the swamps while others submerged themselves into the civilian population, often changing their names and inventing a new past for themselves. However, how many died in the swamps (either from their wounds, from natural hazards (e.g. drowning), or killed by local militia) and how many settled (in Louisiana, Arkansas, Tejas or back in the US) is very much debated, let alone what percentage died of which cause or settled where. The large numbers of refugees fleeing in various directions probably provided cover to many who wished to hide their past.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]3 [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]invalid camp calculations. 3k 'lost', too sick/injured to move south. 1k from north of the Rojo. 1k stragglers (500 from further up (or down) the Mississippi, 500 the retreaters from the west bank battle). Total 5k.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]4 Thomas A Smith is a War of 1812 general (ATL and OTL). OTL, he died in 1844. Here his health is such that, combined with injuries suffered during the battle on the river and landing, he is in no position to take part in a strenuous slog through mud south. Thus he is left in charge of camp. [/FONT][/FONT]
Next installment. Gah... this took forever to write. Sorry.
Mississippi theatre, part 3 : January 1843
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The morning after the main battle, the British look around and see what a disaster they have. They have on hand 11k troops who are still effective, and they need many more than that. The first priority has to be to deal with the battle ground on the west bank of the river. There are 4k surrendered troops, and 6k American wounded. Those almost outnumber the effective British troops on hand. Sure, they're 'surrendered', but what if they decide to 'unsurrender'? Moreover, there are still the 3k US troops dug into Baton Rouge (the 'invalid camp'), the 4k who fled the battlefield (mostly northwards), the 'wounded/sick' camp up by Rojo, and thousands of US soldiers in penny-packets up the river stranded in various places.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Moreover, trying to give proper care to the thousands of seriously wounded on this battlefield is a huge problem. There are some 6k US wounded and 2k+ British.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The dead are slightly less of a problem. While digging any kind of graves for thousands of bodies quickly is a major task, it is a task the the PoWs can legitimately be put to – and they don't mind so much, as most of the dead are their own. While the captured PoWs are depressed because they're captured and their attack failed, they do get some solace from the following facts: 1) they are finally being fed (their food had pretty much run out before the attack), 2) their wounded were being treated better than they could have done (medical supplies were a lower priority in the hellish trip south than food and ammunition were), and 3) their dead were being buried respectfully.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]General Quincy made several arrangements on the morning of the 4th. He sent a small party under flag of truce to the US force dug into Baton Rouge, and made them a proposition; he sent messages both south (to New Orleans) north (to Winchester) screaming for help, both for more troops, and for instructions on how to deal with such a massive number of prisoners; he sent a message north under white flag to Memphis warning them of the outcome and asking that prisoner exchange negotiations be considered. He also started to deal with the military mop up operation.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]However, his current force of 11k is woefully inadequate to deal with the various calls on his forces. He could cheerfully use all 11k to retake Baton Rouge, to deal with the battlefield mess, to deal with the invalid camp or to sweep the banks of the Mississippi for stragglers. Unfortunately, he doesn't HAVE 4 forces that size, he has one.[/FONT]
Baton Rouge
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The proposition for the US forces in Baton Rouge was basically a ceasefire for several days, with no fighting to be resumed until the truce was called off by one side or the other. In the meantime, Quincy expects the US forces to treat the civilians in Baton Rouge with honour and the soldiers are to maintain discipline. The battle on the western bank was an overwhelming British victory, and the US forces were in a pretty hopeless position there. OTOH, dealing with the aftermath of the battle meant that taking them out now would be expensive, and do serious damage to the town. And, again, they might reasonably not believe the scale of the British victory. He offers a small party of US officers to come across and visit the battlefield to see for themselves. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]On the American side, they are running low on ammunition, especially for their Hall Rifles, they're currently safe, they can't take on the rest of Louisiana all by themselves, so waiting for the situation to jell makes a lot of sense. They can't actively accomplish anything now. And in the meantime, they are of some military use to the US, simply by tieing down some of Quincy's forces. So they're prepared to wait. On the other hand, if the US should win (probably by the attack through Tejas, but possibly by another attack south), then they can still be on the winning side. And even if they should have to eventually surrender, they're a big enough force they should be able to negotiate reasonable terms. So, these soldiers are in no hurry to surrender for now.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Actually, Quincy's first offer, which he thought was entirely reasonable, was for the Baton Rouge force to surrender their arms and be transported north out of British territory. However, Brigadier Albert Green [1] the commanding officer felt that staying a thorn in the British side in town and waiting reinforcements was more appropriate. Once that offer was refused, Quincy considered retaking Baton Rouge before dealing with the 'invalid' camp, but decided that the Baton Rouge force was 'safe' for the moment, and stable for now, the only task at hand where he could say that.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Unstated, but understood by both sides is that this time gives the US forces there the opportunity to dig in and make a military assault very expensive. [/FONT]
Southern help
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The appeal for help south to New Orleans was ineffectual. While the message travelled fairly quickly, being able to go downstream on the river, the governor had his hands full and could spare no men and little consideration for the northern defence force. He still had to deal with the attack out of Tejas, which was yet to come, and deal with unrest in New Orleans and the south. While the US plans of uprisings came to nought, he couldn't really trust the American community and had to keep a close watch on them. Moreover, he was rather annoyed at being subordinated to overall command in a single North American theatre – so his response was essentially 'ask Winchester for help, I have none to spare'. In fact, the governor strongly hints that Quincy should be supplying HIM with troops, at least until the promised reinforcements arrived.[/FONT]
Northern help
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The appeal for help north to Missouri and Winchester is also ineffectual for the moment, although will bear fruit later. Missouri is swamped with their own problems, and the communication lags are such that Winchester simply can't reply before the end of the month. Then, too, the Indiana theatre is taking precedence, and logistics are awful. Once reinforcements arrive, well, we'll see then. [/FONT]
Military mop up on the West Bank near Baton Rouge
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Quincy organized several small operations with relatively small numbers of men. The largest group was a handful of regiments to head north, to block off the retreat of the fleeing US soldiers. A smaller group (just some scouts) was sent to check out the 'invalid' camp near the Rojo. He also formally organizes a brown-water naval patrol of the Mississippi to keep the US from trying to reinforce or resupply or reorganize their forces. The bulk of his men are still tied down at the site of the battle, caring for the wounded (from both sides) and guarding prisoners.[/FONT]
blocking force
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]While some 4k Americans had fled (mostly back north), they fled as individuals and small bands, and Quincy figured (correctly, as it later turned out), that 2-3k disciplined soldiers across their retreat path could deal with most of them and get them to surrender. The biggest problem was moving them south under guard, without draining the blocking force too much. Over the next week or so, this force rounds up some 2.5k of the 4 retreating soldiers, some 500 made it to the 'invalid' camp and a thousand were unaccounted for.[2][/FONT]
Riverine patrols
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]As long as the Brits have total control over the lower Mississippi, the thousands of lost and separated US forces can be dealt with in detail. If the 'invalid camp' and Baton Rouge get no reinforcements nor resupply, they can not become a serious threat. (Well, not a serious military threat. They could be a serious brigand threat if they dispersed.) Similarly, there are some 10k troops who disappeared from the US force as it came down the river. At this point, no one knows how many of them were killed (in battle or drowned), and how many made it to one shore or the other. The British suspect that those men are mostly alive and could be a major threat if they were allowed to regroup and join an effective US force (whether it be the 'invalid camp' at the Rojo, the smaller group at Baton Rouge, or even enough of them banded together to be a threat.) If they are denied use of the river, they are much less of a threat.[/FONT]
Rojo/invalid camp
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The 'invalid camp', augmented by stragglers who landed north of the Rojo and made it across, or were otherwise separated from the main force, is Quincy's biggest worry at the moment. It has the largest grouping of US soldiers who haven't surrendered, approximately 5k[3]. While it is true that the group in Baton Rouge is likely a more effective force militarily, that group is in a stable situation, whereas the 'invalid' group up by the Rojo/Red is much more volatile. Moreover, he has little idea of what their capabilities are, and how well they are supplied, so if he doesn't deal with them on his timetable, they may make another lunge south to Baton Rouge, or turn bandit, or most anything.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]As it happens, most of them had been too injured or sick to make the march south, and most of those are still not in any shape to fight. Moreover, many of the stragglers who joined them later were rather dispirited, and thus not eager to fight. In addition, many of the previously healthy soldiers came down with dysentery or other illnesses. The morale of this group was low to start with and dropped further as time progressed without news of the invasion force. Worse, once news did come with the few scattered remnants who ran away from the west bank battle and who managed to elude the blocking force. The tales they tell of that battle are truly gruesome tales, and massively exaggerate the British strength. So, when Quincy started to move against their position, a couple of weeks later, landing more and more soldiers to their south, the General commanding, Thomas A Smith[4], was willing to surrender and have his wounded properly cared for. Not only was he worried about his sick, but he knew he didn't have full control of his troops, so if he HAD ordered an attack or move in some direction, he might not have been obeyed.[/FONT]
Discussions with Memphis
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Messages are carried up river on boat to Memphis where fast couriers can carry messages to Louisville, at which point the optical semaphore net can carry the news east.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The news of the disaster causes consternation in Washington when it arrives in mid-January. The 3 pronged plan (2 invasions and an insurrection at the same time) was supposed to have been a 'cunning plan that cannot fail', but so far one wheel has come off (2 wheels actually, but they haven't found out that the insurrection failed yet). They still hold hope that the Tejas hook of the 1-2 punch will knock out the British in Louisiana, but in the mean time, any soldiers that manage to make their way back are placed in defence.… As word of the failed (prevented, actually) insurrection and the failure of the invasion from Tejas arrive by the end of the month, worries mount. Note that the original US plan was to make a sharp attack and take Louisiana with a concentrated blow. If this succeeded, which they thought was guaranteed, then the US would have a friendly neighbour to the west (Mexico in charge of Texas), their hostile frontier would have been massively diminished, and most of the invasion troops could then be used in Florida or Canada. Now, however, they've just lost a significant chunk of their best trained military, and they are suddenly faced with defending the entire length of the Mississippi from the Red River to the Ohio. Moreover, the British have overwhelming superiority on the Mississippi now, so that that major supply route is closed to the US even for e.g. moving supplies between cities on the American side. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Quincy starts trying to negotiate prisoner exchanges (preferably under parole), but most of the prisoner exchange will have to wait for a general agreement and a more settled outcome for the war. Or at least higher level negotiations between e.g. Winchester (or London) and Washington. In the meantime, however, triages the wounded US soldiers and transports to Memphis all the the sickest prisoners, the amputees, and basically anyone that he figures won't be able to fight for at least a year. Since they won't be able to get back in the fight, he feels it safe, and he has been having some problems supplying his own men. While he can bill this as a 'humanitarian gesture', 'returning poor wounded soldiers home', it also decreases his supply problems and increases the US's. [/FONT]
–
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1 ATL character, born after the PoD[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]2 to this day, it's not clear just what happened to all these men. A few turned themselves in later or were caught and a few made it across the Mississippi back to the US eventually. The best guesses of modern scholars is that many died in the swamps while others submerged themselves into the civilian population, often changing their names and inventing a new past for themselves. However, how many died in the swamps (either from their wounds, from natural hazards (e.g. drowning), or killed by local militia) and how many settled (in Louisiana, Arkansas, Tejas or back in the US) is very much debated, let alone what percentage died of which cause or settled where. The large numbers of refugees fleeing in various directions probably provided cover to many who wished to hide their past.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]3 [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]invalid camp calculations. 3k 'lost', too sick/injured to move south. 1k from north of the Rojo. 1k stragglers (500 from further up (or down) the Mississippi, 500 the retreaters from the west bank battle). Total 5k.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]4 Thomas A Smith is a War of 1812 general (ATL and OTL). OTL, he died in 1844. Here his health is such that, combined with injuries suffered during the battle on the river and landing, he is in no position to take part in a strenuous slog through mud south. Thus he is left in charge of camp. [/FONT][/FONT]
Dathi
Good to see this back. Unfortunately I'm on holiday for a fortnight from this weekend. However a couple of quick thoughts.
It gives some idea how much of a battering the US has taken on the Mississippi front. Could be that returning the various wounded also has another bonus in that they will not only be able to tell in details how much of a disaster the campaign was but give an all too graphic example of what went wrong.
Also the fact the British are treating the prisoners better than they were while still under US command - albeit most of the problems in the latter were due to supply and logistics failures. Could give a sizeable proportion of the US future population with reason to feel markedly less hostile to Britain/Canada improving relations later on.
I need to read up the TL again to catch up on events but that will have to wait at least a couple of weeks. However sounds like the only area in which the US is making any progress is in Illinois and I think I remember they were starting to stall there.
Anyway, best wishes with the health and looking forward to seeing more updates. Keep well.
Steve
Good to see this back. Unfortunately I'm on holiday for a fortnight from this weekend.
However a couple of quick thoughts.It gives some idea how much of a battering the US has taken on the Mississippi front. Could be that returning the various wounded also has another bonus in that they will not only be able to tell in details how much of a disaster the campaign was but give an all too graphic example of what went wrong.
Also the fact the British are treating the prisoners better than they were while still under US command - albeit most of the problems in the latter were due to supply and logistics failures. Could give a sizeable proportion of the US future population with reason to feel markedly less hostile to Britain/Canada improving relations later on.
I need to read up the TL again to catch up on events but that will have to wait at least a couple of weeks. However sounds like the only area in which the US is making any progress is in Illinois and I think I remember they were starting to stall there.
Anyway, best wishes with the health and looking forward to seeing more updates. Keep well.
Steve
Glad to see it's back, Dathi. Like Steve, I'll have to reread this again (particularly for my own variant), but yeah - still looks like the US is having some problems of its own. Here they are, thinking that they can get New England and BNA, as well as Spanish Florida, and so far it's been a disaster on all counts. Makes one wonder if they should start playing "Nearer, My God, To Thee".
Like Steve, I'll have to reread this again (particularly for my own variant), but yeah - still looks like the US is having some problems of its own. Here they are, thinking that they can get New England and BNA, as well as Spanish Florida, and so far it's been a disaster on all counts. Makes one wonder if they should start playing "Nearer, My God, To Thee". Nice to see another post Dathi. Looks good, I look forward to seeing the end of the war.
The end of the war won't be for a bit yet. The US still thinks it can hold 'Illinois' and Florida, while the Brits (Illinois) and the Spanish (Florida) think they can reclaim them. It's going to be messy for a bit yet.Nice to see another post Dathi. Looks good, I look forward to seeing the end of the war.
Mississippi Theatre, part 4 – January-early February 1843
Mississippi Theatre, part 4 – January-early February 1843
Aftermaths of the battles.
Debriefing after the (east bank) battle of Baton Rouge.
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif](between Arthbutnot, who had commanded the losing British forces outside Baton Rouge on New Year's Day, and General Quincy, commander in charge of British forces in northern Louisiana.)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif](Arthbutnot's regiment is one of the ones tasked with blocking the northward movement of escaping troops. He takes the lesson to heart and performs, not brilliantly, but at least adequately, and eventually is re-instated as full colonel. Later on he serves in China and India and is eventually promoted to Brigadier.)[/FONT]
Atrocities
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]After the battle of West Baton Rouge, as the west bank battle became known, Quincy starts hearing stories of misbehaviour on the part US troops during their march south. Initially, he doesn't worry much about it, as some of it can be ascribed to marauding behaviour of armies on the march, and thus is an unpleasant, but unavoidable part of war. Still, he appoints a young lieutenant Robert Ford, to look into these allegations. Lt. Ford talks to some of the locals, and instances where specific US soldiers e.g. raped local women are noted for future judgement, if the guilty party can be found.[2] (Far too often, the description of the assailant is so very vague that it's impossible to find the culprit.) Cases where farms were looted, the amount seized is noted, and prepared for a post-war accounting with the US. However, when he is talking to locals, especially the local militia, a disturbing pattern starts to appear. Locals (both civilian and militia) tell of militia members being captured and tortured and executed, instead of being treated as PoWs. Since the fate of most captured soldiers is unknown, the fate of these few is an ominous sign.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Then, when the blocking force moves into position, they start finding a few corpses, some wearing militia armbands, with their arms tied, and shot in the back of the head. One was even wearing a full uniform. After a week or more, the bodies are in bad enough shape (between rotting and animal scavengers), that it's not possible to be definitive about their fate before death, but there does seem to have been torture in at least some cases.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The blocking force doesn't find many corpses – but it isn't looking for them, and there is a LOT of territory between Baton Rouge and the Rojo. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Still, when the surrender of the invalid camp is taken, Quincy makes sure that 'extra-military criminal behaviour' will be taken into account. Since General Smith thinks this just means rapists and the like, he agrees - with the proviso that an American officer be witness to any such judicial proceedings and that the results (e.g. transcripts of the trials) be forwarded to US authorities. While he would strongly prefer to discipline his own men, and tries to hold out for US jurisdiction or a joint court, he really doesn't have a leg to stand on, and gives in. He figures that the US observer will keep the Brits honest – and, in any case, his men have been stuck in one spot and haven't had a CHANCE to do most of the criminal offences soldiers might get up to. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Still, once the British take the Americans' surrender, and start inspecting the camp, they find a whole series of graves that turn out to hold militia corpses, and there are enough of them that it's quite definitive that some were tortured and that others were clearly executed.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]When Smith is taken to task about this, he can't believe it. OTOH, he was delirious with wound fever and otherwise out of commission for much of the intervening time, so he calls over Elijah Wood, his second in command (who had been brevetted to Brigadier rank), and the questioning proceeds. Wood insists flat out that no British militia were mistreated, and while a few did die, they were properly buried – and points to the militia burial sites. He even invites the British to interview the survivors, and they can tell how they were treated. This seems a bit confusing. Then Ford says, “Err... but the graves we found weren't that direction – they were over there.” Wood replies “There!? They weren't no militia, they was armed n****rs”. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]All the mistreated corpses had, in fact, been black; and almost all the well-treated survivors were white. However, the British army doesn't dare allow this. Too many of their troops in Louisiana are black, and most of their militia is. Justice (or at least some vague approximation of it) must be served (or at least be seen to be served), or the British could yet lose Louisiana. Several of the corpses were clearly wearing militia armbands still, and some were identifiable by other means. Moreover, once the investigation started in earnest, various personal items known to have belonged to local militia members were found on the persons of the US soldiers. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Ford takes his findings down river to Louisiana, and presents them to Quincy. After discussing it with his staff, he decides on 'justice', and orders the trials of the US soldiers involved. The trials could, in theory, have implicated most every US soldier, at least as an accessory to murder, but Quincy waters down the prosecution some. Firstly, HE isn't nearly as worried about these murders as he would be about similar mistreatment of 'real soldiers' [since, a) they're black, and b) militia], but on the other hand they ARE men under his command, and feels he has to be SEEN to at least attempt 'justice' for his men. Moreover, even if he were a rabid proponent of racial equality (which he isn't), he knows his men wouldn't stand for executing an entire camp of white men in cold blood.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]So, the trials go ahead. Brigadier Wood, a colonel, a major, 3 captains, 5 lieutenants, a round dozen noncoms, and a few privates were tried for murder, and executed. Several others were tried and let off for one reason or another. (The only privates convicted were those who could be shown to have engaged in torture.) Smith was excused trial on the grounds that he was not competent during the period mentioned, and due to his continuing extreme ill health. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Similar trials were then held for the prisoners of the Battle of West Baton Rouge, but almost all of them were acquitted, as the evidence for any individual culprit was hard to find. (Rumour had arrived that you could actually be tried for killing a n****r, which seemed unbelievable, but slowed the verbal evidence.) Still, a colonel, a captain and 5 lower ranks were successfully tried and executed.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The US officer in attendance was horrified, but had to admit that, if one accepted the ridiculous premise that killing a black man was 'murder', the verdicts could have been worse.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Accounts of the trials were copied out, and, as agreed, copies were sent to US authorities at Memphis, as well as north to Winchester and south to New Orleans. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Once the trials were over, Quincy again performed triage of the prisoners at the invalid camp, and sent the sickest and worst wounded back to Memphis, including General Smith (who unfortunately succumbed to his wounds 3 weeks later).[/FONT]
Baton Rouge proper
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]It's now early February, and Quincy has managed to deal with most of what he needs to deal with on the west bank. It's time to turn to deal with the US force holed up in Baton Rouge. By now, Quincy has a MUCH better hand to play compared to a month before, when negotiating with General Green. By now he has the US forces from the west bank (both big groups and most of the stragglers) dealt with; 4k new troops have arrived in New Orleans (mostly EIC troops from India, but also a West Indies Regiment), and more are coming. The attack out of Tejas has failed miserably, and the planned insurrection never happened. Nor is there any evidence that the US might send another force south to rescue Green and his men, especially since the British have pretty good control of the Mississippi. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Green basically has two options, he can try a banzai suicide campaign and destroy his men, hoping to inflict the maximum possible damage to the Brits; or he can try for the best terms possible. Since the wild attack would have been far more effective if done earlier, while Quincy was distracted and before the Brits received reinforcements, that really only leaves surrender, with the best terms that can be arranged.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]OTOH, Quincy still faces a significant foe, well dug into Baton Rouge. If he DID try to take them, he would not only lose many of his men (which he really can't afford – the Brits are still stretched pretty thin even with the reinforcements), but Baton Rouge would likely be destroyed. There's still a significant civilian population there at risk, too.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]So Green manages to hold out for pretty good terms. While he TRIES to get the British to let his whole unit return to the US, Quincy isn't THAT desperate. (That might have been a possibility earlier, when the whole situation was more fluid.) What he arranges is a surrender with honour, the regiments keep their flags[4], and the officers their side-arms. He even gets better terms for the trials – joint courts, for instance. As it turns out, this is not much of a problem. Due to the quick dash his men made for Baton Rouge, few militia caught up with them, and fewer captured. While no official militia attacks were arranged once the force was IN Baton Rouge. So the only prosecutions end up being for rape of black girls – (rape of white girls had already been punished by Green and his officers), and Quincy, again, allows strict enough standards of evidence that only 3 men end up getting convicted.[5][/FONT]
–
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1 It WASN'T 'done'. Especially since Arthbutnot has connexions, and Quincy knows it. However, Quincy knows that he has to fix his command, and fix it now, or there may not BE a British Louisiana. He rather suspects to be cashiered himself, once the war is over, or even calms down a bit. He is very pleasantly surprised, when, some months later, the King and Queen commend him and use him as a positive example.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]2 Note that the level of rape and pillage was actually rather less than might have been expected, and e.g. far less than the French army in Spain in the Peninsular War. Several of the rapes had actually already been punished by General Riley before battle. And most of the plundering involved US troops leaving scrip/IOUs for the food taken. Rather civilized behaviour for a desperate foraging army, and Quincy, being a practical man, is rather pleasantly surprised by this portion of the investigation. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]3 prosecutions at the invalid camp were easy. Ford's men just had to go through the camp asking about the killings, and many people would talk. Many considered the 'executions' of the blacks to be entirely justified, or certainly not worthy of much comment. When the perpetrators were actually executed (for killing a black man!?!?! WTF!?!?), there was widespread disbelief in the US ranks and at least one soldier whose testimony caused the execution of a popular officer committed suicide in shame. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Once rumours of the trials reach the PoWs near Baton Rouge (more from information leaked from Quincy's HQ than from up north), people get more cautious, and Ford's clerks get little evidence. Moreover, the standard of evidence had been set pretty high for the initial trials (as I said, Quincy wanted to make a statement more than to bring the maximum number to trial), so it was tougher to meet that threshold with (slightly) forewarned witnesses. Some of the evidence that IS collected is from soldiers who just simply can't believe that killing a black man could be that serious. Moreover, there were enough wounded who had by now already been returned to US custody, and enough dead, that stories could be invented to blame absent and unreachable 'perpetrators' (occasionally even accurately!).[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]4 due to the incredibly haphazard nature of the stranding of men on the east bank, what Green has is not any original regiments with their proper officers and flags, but rather a fairly random assortment of men that he has organized. One of the 'regimental flags' in his possession at this point actually belongs to a regiment that NONE of his men belong to, some how. Still....[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]5 not fair to the girls involved, since several girls were forced into concubinage – which Quincy considered 'not rape' as, violence wasn't used every time, so obviously the girls 'consented'. [/FONT]
Mississippi Theatre, part 4 – January-early February 1843
Aftermaths of the battles.
Debriefing after the (east bank) battle of Baton Rouge.
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif](between Arthbutnot, who had commanded the losing British forces outside Baton Rouge on New Year's Day, and General Quincy, commander in charge of British forces in northern Louisiana.)[/FONT]
- [FONT=Arial, sans-serif](sentry) Colonel Arthbutnot to see you, General.[/FONT]
- [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]General Arthbutnot reporting, sir![/FONT]
- [FONT=Arial, sans-serif](sigh) Come in, Lieutenant-Colonel[/FONT]
- [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Colonel, sir, of course, even if you choose not to use my brevet rank[/FONT]
- [FONT=Arial, sans-serif](raise eyebrows) Shall we make it Major? Or Captain?[/FONT]
- [FONT=Arial, sans-serif](outraged) I protest, sir. I purchased my commission from the Horse Guards in London, only they can take it away![/FONT]
- [FONT=Arial, sans-serif](quietly) Oh, really now? Perhaps you don't know that here the military is under the command of the Command-in-Chief (North America), …[/FONT]
- [FONT=Arial, sans-serif](sputters) but, but... You can't DO this, it's just NOT DONE![/FONT]
- [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Well it SHOULD be done. Look. You had the opportunity to defeat that force, and you threw it away. General Green and his men are now ensconced in Baton Rouge, and to get them out will likely involve destroying the town.[1][/FONT]
- [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]But... but.... You can't strip an officer of rank like that without a court-martial![/FONT]
- [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Perhaps... But, you do realize that any board empanelled for such a court-martial would be composed of officers who suffered as a result of your mismanagement? I think you might be better advised to take a simple reduction in rank and go on.[/FONT]
- [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Well, sir, then I will resign my commission! I am not putting up with such an affront![/FONT]
- [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Resignation not accepted. We're at war, and no-one is leaving until hostilities are over – or they are dead or invalided out – or discharged as incompetent. Desertion in war time is a hangable offence, as I am sure you recall.[/FONT]
- [FONT=Arial, sans-serif](bluster)[/FONT]
- [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Look. You would already be facing a court-martial for incompetence, but we are short on officers, and you did perform some good troop-handling, even if your tactical sense was abysmal.[/FONT]
- [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Errr... well, actually... umm... that was Major Smith who was responsible for the troop-handling. Sir.[/FONT]
- [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Miracle of miracles, he's learning! If you thought to use the talents of Major Smith, why not those of Captain Archambault?[/FONT]
- [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Errr... well... [/FONT]
- [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Look. I'll leave you with your regiment, and Major Archambault. Smith gets his own regiment, but you might want to pay more attention to advice from men who know what they're doing in the future.[/FONT]
- [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Errr. Yes, Sir.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif](Arthbutnot's regiment is one of the ones tasked with blocking the northward movement of escaping troops. He takes the lesson to heart and performs, not brilliantly, but at least adequately, and eventually is re-instated as full colonel. Later on he serves in China and India and is eventually promoted to Brigadier.)[/FONT]
Atrocities
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]After the battle of West Baton Rouge, as the west bank battle became known, Quincy starts hearing stories of misbehaviour on the part US troops during their march south. Initially, he doesn't worry much about it, as some of it can be ascribed to marauding behaviour of armies on the march, and thus is an unpleasant, but unavoidable part of war. Still, he appoints a young lieutenant Robert Ford, to look into these allegations. Lt. Ford talks to some of the locals, and instances where specific US soldiers e.g. raped local women are noted for future judgement, if the guilty party can be found.[2] (Far too often, the description of the assailant is so very vague that it's impossible to find the culprit.) Cases where farms were looted, the amount seized is noted, and prepared for a post-war accounting with the US. However, when he is talking to locals, especially the local militia, a disturbing pattern starts to appear. Locals (both civilian and militia) tell of militia members being captured and tortured and executed, instead of being treated as PoWs. Since the fate of most captured soldiers is unknown, the fate of these few is an ominous sign.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Then, when the blocking force moves into position, they start finding a few corpses, some wearing militia armbands, with their arms tied, and shot in the back of the head. One was even wearing a full uniform. After a week or more, the bodies are in bad enough shape (between rotting and animal scavengers), that it's not possible to be definitive about their fate before death, but there does seem to have been torture in at least some cases.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The blocking force doesn't find many corpses – but it isn't looking for them, and there is a LOT of territory between Baton Rouge and the Rojo. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Still, when the surrender of the invalid camp is taken, Quincy makes sure that 'extra-military criminal behaviour' will be taken into account. Since General Smith thinks this just means rapists and the like, he agrees - with the proviso that an American officer be witness to any such judicial proceedings and that the results (e.g. transcripts of the trials) be forwarded to US authorities. While he would strongly prefer to discipline his own men, and tries to hold out for US jurisdiction or a joint court, he really doesn't have a leg to stand on, and gives in. He figures that the US observer will keep the Brits honest – and, in any case, his men have been stuck in one spot and haven't had a CHANCE to do most of the criminal offences soldiers might get up to. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Still, once the British take the Americans' surrender, and start inspecting the camp, they find a whole series of graves that turn out to hold militia corpses, and there are enough of them that it's quite definitive that some were tortured and that others were clearly executed.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]When Smith is taken to task about this, he can't believe it. OTOH, he was delirious with wound fever and otherwise out of commission for much of the intervening time, so he calls over Elijah Wood, his second in command (who had been brevetted to Brigadier rank), and the questioning proceeds. Wood insists flat out that no British militia were mistreated, and while a few did die, they were properly buried – and points to the militia burial sites. He even invites the British to interview the survivors, and they can tell how they were treated. This seems a bit confusing. Then Ford says, “Err... but the graves we found weren't that direction – they were over there.” Wood replies “There!? They weren't no militia, they was armed n****rs”. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]All the mistreated corpses had, in fact, been black; and almost all the well-treated survivors were white. However, the British army doesn't dare allow this. Too many of their troops in Louisiana are black, and most of their militia is. Justice (or at least some vague approximation of it) must be served (or at least be seen to be served), or the British could yet lose Louisiana. Several of the corpses were clearly wearing militia armbands still, and some were identifiable by other means. Moreover, once the investigation started in earnest, various personal items known to have belonged to local militia members were found on the persons of the US soldiers. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Ford takes his findings down river to Louisiana, and presents them to Quincy. After discussing it with his staff, he decides on 'justice', and orders the trials of the US soldiers involved. The trials could, in theory, have implicated most every US soldier, at least as an accessory to murder, but Quincy waters down the prosecution some. Firstly, HE isn't nearly as worried about these murders as he would be about similar mistreatment of 'real soldiers' [since, a) they're black, and b) militia], but on the other hand they ARE men under his command, and feels he has to be SEEN to at least attempt 'justice' for his men. Moreover, even if he were a rabid proponent of racial equality (which he isn't), he knows his men wouldn't stand for executing an entire camp of white men in cold blood.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]So, the trials go ahead. Brigadier Wood, a colonel, a major, 3 captains, 5 lieutenants, a round dozen noncoms, and a few privates were tried for murder, and executed. Several others were tried and let off for one reason or another. (The only privates convicted were those who could be shown to have engaged in torture.) Smith was excused trial on the grounds that he was not competent during the period mentioned, and due to his continuing extreme ill health. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Similar trials were then held for the prisoners of the Battle of West Baton Rouge, but almost all of them were acquitted, as the evidence for any individual culprit was hard to find. (Rumour had arrived that you could actually be tried for killing a n****r, which seemed unbelievable, but slowed the verbal evidence.) Still, a colonel, a captain and 5 lower ranks were successfully tried and executed.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The US officer in attendance was horrified, but had to admit that, if one accepted the ridiculous premise that killing a black man was 'murder', the verdicts could have been worse.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Accounts of the trials were copied out, and, as agreed, copies were sent to US authorities at Memphis, as well as north to Winchester and south to New Orleans. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Once the trials were over, Quincy again performed triage of the prisoners at the invalid camp, and sent the sickest and worst wounded back to Memphis, including General Smith (who unfortunately succumbed to his wounds 3 weeks later).[/FONT]
Baton Rouge proper
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]It's now early February, and Quincy has managed to deal with most of what he needs to deal with on the west bank. It's time to turn to deal with the US force holed up in Baton Rouge. By now, Quincy has a MUCH better hand to play compared to a month before, when negotiating with General Green. By now he has the US forces from the west bank (both big groups and most of the stragglers) dealt with; 4k new troops have arrived in New Orleans (mostly EIC troops from India, but also a West Indies Regiment), and more are coming. The attack out of Tejas has failed miserably, and the planned insurrection never happened. Nor is there any evidence that the US might send another force south to rescue Green and his men, especially since the British have pretty good control of the Mississippi. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Green basically has two options, he can try a banzai suicide campaign and destroy his men, hoping to inflict the maximum possible damage to the Brits; or he can try for the best terms possible. Since the wild attack would have been far more effective if done earlier, while Quincy was distracted and before the Brits received reinforcements, that really only leaves surrender, with the best terms that can be arranged.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]OTOH, Quincy still faces a significant foe, well dug into Baton Rouge. If he DID try to take them, he would not only lose many of his men (which he really can't afford – the Brits are still stretched pretty thin even with the reinforcements), but Baton Rouge would likely be destroyed. There's still a significant civilian population there at risk, too.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]So Green manages to hold out for pretty good terms. While he TRIES to get the British to let his whole unit return to the US, Quincy isn't THAT desperate. (That might have been a possibility earlier, when the whole situation was more fluid.) What he arranges is a surrender with honour, the regiments keep their flags[4], and the officers their side-arms. He even gets better terms for the trials – joint courts, for instance. As it turns out, this is not much of a problem. Due to the quick dash his men made for Baton Rouge, few militia caught up with them, and fewer captured. While no official militia attacks were arranged once the force was IN Baton Rouge. So the only prosecutions end up being for rape of black girls – (rape of white girls had already been punished by Green and his officers), and Quincy, again, allows strict enough standards of evidence that only 3 men end up getting convicted.[5][/FONT]
–
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1 It WASN'T 'done'. Especially since Arthbutnot has connexions, and Quincy knows it. However, Quincy knows that he has to fix his command, and fix it now, or there may not BE a British Louisiana. He rather suspects to be cashiered himself, once the war is over, or even calms down a bit. He is very pleasantly surprised, when, some months later, the King and Queen commend him and use him as a positive example.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]2 Note that the level of rape and pillage was actually rather less than might have been expected, and e.g. far less than the French army in Spain in the Peninsular War. Several of the rapes had actually already been punished by General Riley before battle. And most of the plundering involved US troops leaving scrip/IOUs for the food taken. Rather civilized behaviour for a desperate foraging army, and Quincy, being a practical man, is rather pleasantly surprised by this portion of the investigation. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]3 prosecutions at the invalid camp were easy. Ford's men just had to go through the camp asking about the killings, and many people would talk. Many considered the 'executions' of the blacks to be entirely justified, or certainly not worthy of much comment. When the perpetrators were actually executed (for killing a black man!?!?! WTF!?!?), there was widespread disbelief in the US ranks and at least one soldier whose testimony caused the execution of a popular officer committed suicide in shame. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Once rumours of the trials reach the PoWs near Baton Rouge (more from information leaked from Quincy's HQ than from up north), people get more cautious, and Ford's clerks get little evidence. Moreover, the standard of evidence had been set pretty high for the initial trials (as I said, Quincy wanted to make a statement more than to bring the maximum number to trial), so it was tougher to meet that threshold with (slightly) forewarned witnesses. Some of the evidence that IS collected is from soldiers who just simply can't believe that killing a black man could be that serious. Moreover, there were enough wounded who had by now already been returned to US custody, and enough dead, that stories could be invented to blame absent and unreachable 'perpetrators' (occasionally even accurately!).[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]4 due to the incredibly haphazard nature of the stranding of men on the east bank, what Green has is not any original regiments with their proper officers and flags, but rather a fairly random assortment of men that he has organized. One of the 'regimental flags' in his possession at this point actually belongs to a regiment that NONE of his men belong to, some how. Still....[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]5 not fair to the girls involved, since several girls were forced into concubinage – which Quincy considered 'not rape' as, violence wasn't used every time, so obviously the girls 'consented'. [/FONT]
Interesting update, Dathi. Question - now that the atrocities have been found amongst the Americans, will this be mentioned in the press (American and/or British and/or Canadian and/or New England), or will the Government try to muzzle it so that way no one on the American side will know? After all, even back then, some of these atrocities are gravely serious.
Dathi
A good amount of mopping up. Quincy has secured his position and a good bit more stability and order for the region he's responsible for. That will help both the locals and enable trade and troop movement through the region.
The handling of racial abuse, while not up to modern western standards goes some way to both assure the black population they will receive some protection against such excesses and also sends a warning sign to the Americans. If it's in time it might save some lives in the northern front.
Steve
A good amount of mopping up. Quincy has secured his position and a good bit more stability and order for the region he's responsible for. That will help both the locals and enable trade and troop movement through the region.
The handling of racial abuse, while not up to modern western standards goes some way to both assure the black population they will receive some protection against such excesses and also sends a warning sign to the Americans. If it's in time it might save some lives in the northern front.
Steve
I think the British/Canadians are going to shout about the Americans executing/torturing PoWs, while the US minimizes that - and points out they were 'out of control n****rs pretending to be soldiers'.
What the US will trumpet is the British execution of THEIR soldiers on 'trumped up charges'.
Still, you're probably right that caution will go out to US forces to make sure they deal with uppity n****rs the right way - which means 'don't get caught'. One of the problems the 'invalid camp' soldiers had was conceiving of the idea that they could get in serious trouble. Many of them probably really did believe that the blacks were only pretending to be soldiers.
The US is now put on notice as to what standards the British expect for their PoWs, whatever race, and that will improve things some.
In the north, however, the insurgency is mostly Indian, not black, and Indians always had more respect than blacks - even if they were still 'primitives' and not white. Moreover, the *War of 1812 taught US forces to respect Indians on the battlefield - what they don't expect is competence in e.g. siege warfare.
The cautions may do more good in Florida, perhaps. We'll see.
Very true,. especially in terms of the Americans very likely not realising they were doing anything the British would find objectionable. [Although if any of the people tracking slaves who escaped to Louisiana were in the army they should have been able to warn them otherwise]. I think the idea expressed in the update, 'what them? They were' soldiers, the were just armed n*****s is probably very likely to be the case.
Are you sure about this? The Americans may respect the Indians as fighters but they still think of them as savages and the people on land they want. OTL massacres were all too common on both sides so, barring warnings spreading after what happened in Louisiana, there could still be problems.
Steve
More respect. I.e. not none, which is what blacks got. You notice I called the US view of Indians as "'primitives' and not white" which isn't TOO far from your 'savage'. Certainly, the effective (and somewhat more disciplined) role the Indians played iTTL's *War of 1812 is much more likely to incline a US soldier to treat them with some respect - militarily (not personally).
OTOH, the extended history of misbehaviour between whites (especially Americans) and the natives could lead to problems, too. So, you may have a point (although I think you slightly misinterpreted my view of American views here).
Mississippi Theatre, part 5 (February 1843 et seq.)
Mississippi Theatre, part 5 (February 1843 et seq.)
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]retcon: In part 2, change 'Colonel' Archambault to 'Captain'[/FONT]
Green's Baton Rouge force
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Part of the surrender deal was repatriation to the US for any soldiers willing to give parole not to take up arms against any Allied nation until such time a prisoner exchanges were negotiated. Quincy doesn't really want to have to guard and feed 3k healthy troops, and they have behaved in a manner that makes him believe he can trust their parole. Green's men get to return to the States instead of rotting in a prison camp somewhere. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Whether by accident or design, Green does get a concession from Quincy that wasn't intended. Since the phrasing of the parole was 'in arms against any Allied nation' (Quincy doesn't want them available for use against Spain, for instance), the phrasing doesn't cover internal rebellion (e.g. Indians or escaped blacks), and the availability of 3k real soldiers for this role frees up at least that many 2nd tier militia for the war effort.[/FONT]
Public Reaction
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The newspapers of both the US and the Allies have a field day, shouting out the 'intolerable behaviour' of the other side in the warfare on the Mississippi. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The British/Canadian press trumpet the fact that the Americans executed and tortured PoWs, hardly mentioning that the PoWs were black and mostly not in uniform (nor that the torture seemed to be rare); while the US minimizes their misbehaviour - and claims they weren't real soldiers, but rather 'out of control n****rs on a rampage, pretending to be soldiers'.
What the US will trumpet is the British execution of THEIR soldiers on 'trumped up charges', where the Allied press will talk of 'justified executions'. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Both nations' presses are interested in firing up enthusiasm for the war, and this is just one more source of fuel for the flames.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]On the other hand, while they don't come out and say it publicly, the military commands of each side understand that the other side isn't being totally unreasonable here. And the good treatment of the US wounded by the British, the release of the badly wounded US soldiers, and the release under parole of the Green's Baton Rouge force, all increase respect for the British forces with the US high command, even if those positive impressions never appear in a newspaper. Similarly, Quincy and the British/Canadian command realize that the US forces had serious problems seeing the black militia as 'real soldiers' or even real human beings – which makes their behaviour understandable, even if not justifiable.[1] [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]One consequence of the trials is that cautions go out to US forces. In the future, they need to deal with PoWs (even if they're uppity n****rs) the right way. (Basically, don't mistreat them – and if you do do it, get rid of the evidence: 'don't get caught'). One of the problems the 'invalid camp' soldiers had had was conceiving of the idea that they could get in serious trouble. Many of them probably really did believe that the blacks were only pretending to be soldiers.
The US is now put on notice as to what standards the British expect for their PoWs, whatever race, and that will improve things some.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Cautions the other way go out, too. British/Canadian forces work harder at outfitting even lower rank militia with uniforms, and insisting that anyone engaging in any 'militia activity' MUST wear proper identification (which often is a militia armband, at least until more full uniforms can be provided). Part of the discussion between the high commands in the next months is how to tell militia from e.g. bushwhackers, and some sort of 'uniform' (even if it's just the armbands) will end up being required.[2][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]However, the gloves stay off in the internal counter-insurgency campaigns. Internal rebels, be they black or red, are not covered by the conventions of warfare.[/FONT]
–
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1 It has to be admitted that some British officers have problems seeing 'colonials', 'French/Frogs', 'Spanish/Dagos', etc., as being as worthy as themselves, let alone the black militia. However, such private opinions, however common, have to be suppressed for the good of the defence of the province. If the British provinces weren't in a fight for their lives, there would have been a lot more latitude for those opinions.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]2 Compare the Geneva Convention (much later, and OTL, of course). Soldiers, to be treated as soldiers (and covered under the Convention) must be in uniform, or they can be executed as spies. Informal forces have to be a) in disciplined units and b) have some sort of ID. Something of the sort is going to be hammered out iTTL during this conflict, and then used as a basis for an international agreement. Actually, the OTL Convention was 1864, so this is only advancing it a couple of decades. [/FONT]
Mississippi Theatre, part 5 (February 1843 et seq.)
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]retcon: In part 2, change 'Colonel' Archambault to 'Captain'[/FONT]
Green's Baton Rouge force
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Part of the surrender deal was repatriation to the US for any soldiers willing to give parole not to take up arms against any Allied nation until such time a prisoner exchanges were negotiated. Quincy doesn't really want to have to guard and feed 3k healthy troops, and they have behaved in a manner that makes him believe he can trust their parole. Green's men get to return to the States instead of rotting in a prison camp somewhere. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Whether by accident or design, Green does get a concession from Quincy that wasn't intended. Since the phrasing of the parole was 'in arms against any Allied nation' (Quincy doesn't want them available for use against Spain, for instance), the phrasing doesn't cover internal rebellion (e.g. Indians or escaped blacks), and the availability of 3k real soldiers for this role frees up at least that many 2nd tier militia for the war effort.[/FONT]
Public Reaction
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The newspapers of both the US and the Allies have a field day, shouting out the 'intolerable behaviour' of the other side in the warfare on the Mississippi. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The British/Canadian press trumpet the fact that the Americans executed and tortured PoWs, hardly mentioning that the PoWs were black and mostly not in uniform (nor that the torture seemed to be rare); while the US minimizes their misbehaviour - and claims they weren't real soldiers, but rather 'out of control n****rs on a rampage, pretending to be soldiers'.
What the US will trumpet is the British execution of THEIR soldiers on 'trumped up charges', where the Allied press will talk of 'justified executions'. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Both nations' presses are interested in firing up enthusiasm for the war, and this is just one more source of fuel for the flames.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]On the other hand, while they don't come out and say it publicly, the military commands of each side understand that the other side isn't being totally unreasonable here. And the good treatment of the US wounded by the British, the release of the badly wounded US soldiers, and the release under parole of the Green's Baton Rouge force, all increase respect for the British forces with the US high command, even if those positive impressions never appear in a newspaper. Similarly, Quincy and the British/Canadian command realize that the US forces had serious problems seeing the black militia as 'real soldiers' or even real human beings – which makes their behaviour understandable, even if not justifiable.[1] [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]One consequence of the trials is that cautions go out to US forces. In the future, they need to deal with PoWs (even if they're uppity n****rs) the right way. (Basically, don't mistreat them – and if you do do it, get rid of the evidence: 'don't get caught'). One of the problems the 'invalid camp' soldiers had had was conceiving of the idea that they could get in serious trouble. Many of them probably really did believe that the blacks were only pretending to be soldiers.
The US is now put on notice as to what standards the British expect for their PoWs, whatever race, and that will improve things some.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Cautions the other way go out, too. British/Canadian forces work harder at outfitting even lower rank militia with uniforms, and insisting that anyone engaging in any 'militia activity' MUST wear proper identification (which often is a militia armband, at least until more full uniforms can be provided). Part of the discussion between the high commands in the next months is how to tell militia from e.g. bushwhackers, and some sort of 'uniform' (even if it's just the armbands) will end up being required.[2][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]However, the gloves stay off in the internal counter-insurgency campaigns. Internal rebels, be they black or red, are not covered by the conventions of warfare.[/FONT]
–
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1 It has to be admitted that some British officers have problems seeing 'colonials', 'French/Frogs', 'Spanish/Dagos', etc., as being as worthy as themselves, let alone the black militia. However, such private opinions, however common, have to be suppressed for the good of the defence of the province. If the British provinces weren't in a fight for their lives, there would have been a lot more latitude for those opinions.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]2 Compare the Geneva Convention (much later, and OTL, of course). Soldiers, to be treated as soldiers (and covered under the Convention) must be in uniform, or they can be executed as spies. Informal forces have to be a) in disciplined units and b) have some sort of ID. Something of the sort is going to be hammered out iTTL during this conflict, and then used as a basis for an international agreement. Actually, the OTL Convention was 1864, so this is only advancing it a couple of decades. [/FONT]
- Status