"Fight and be Right"
- Thread starter EdT
- Start date
Well of course it would depend on what the church has done. If it gets too close to the government (not a difficult thing to do with a state church) then it would come under attack. Clearly disestablishment wouldn't come under normal circumstances; it would certainly be plausible here under the 'provisional' stage though.
I might add that the Welsh church was disestablished in OTL so it's not exactly too far out.
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Hm. This is one of the reasons why I had King Alexander- seems to me that any monarch who oversaw the Unionist period would be irretrievably tainted by it, especially as I envisioned William V as not being massively pleasant. Hence the abdication, which seems a plausible step to take in cleaning house. Of course, for the Dominions having a new, untainted King is one thing. Actually having him living with you is rather another. I saw Smuts offering to take the Royal Family in out of sentiment, and because South Africa will be a lot more 'British' ITTL, but it'd be a very awkward situation for everyone to be in, and if Alexander has any sense (which I think he would) he would be aware that he's treading on eggshells.
From my conversations with Zyzzyva a fair while ago, it seems to me that one longer-term effect of the assassination of Queen Victoria and the War of the Dual Alliance will be to kickstart Bourassa's 'Canadianism', and that there will be a much stronger movement ITTL for Canada to be a neutral nation with friendly ties to, but not military or political links with, both the Empire and the USA. This is obviously going to come into its own when HMG gets a bit nastier in the 1920s, and it seems to me that Churchill is exactly the sort of person who would manage to infuriate an already semi-detached Ottawa into taking the deeply controversial decision to remain neutral during the Great War.
This also ties in with the whole 'not better or worse, just different' theme; ITTL come the 1930s, South Africa is the loyal Dominion and Canada the awkward one.
Well I for one certainly didn't! Bryan's rise is largely OTL afterall, just with the electoral advantage of him being up against a discredited Republican Party rather than a resurgent one.
With that said, there are certainly similarities. Excellent, if overly rehearsed and inflexible oratory, complete, perhaps slightly counter-productive self-confidence, an over-estimation of what he can actually achieve despite an initially friendly congress and a burst of popular support...
FWIW, my vision of the Bryan Presidency is one of excellent speeches, but surprisingly little real reform; he'll re-invigorate the Presidency TR style with the bully pulpit, but that won't neccesarily translate into legislation.
Wallis was Episcopalian, wasn't she? It was about the only thing not wrong with her...
I felt it might be a goer ITTL because of a couple of things; firstly, Lloyd George was keen, and made a lot of progress in that direction IOTL. As V-J points out, the Church of Wales was disestasblished in 1920, and the same effectively happened to the Church of Scotland the following year; the relevant Act of Parliament specifically denied the idea that The Kirk was ever established in the first place, which would have been news to most older worshippers. As an aside, the Church of Ireland had been disestablished since 1871.
Secondly, disestablishment makes political and symbolic sense in the context of what has gone before. Britain is a much more sectarian country ITTL, and a lot of the Left's support will be derived from the Catholic working class in places like Liverpool, Glasgow etc- the very places that will have brought down Churchill during the General Strike. In addition, I would be amazed if the C of E was not subject to political interference ITTL; it was OTL, with things like Joynson Hicks derailing the new Book of Common Prayer.
Bringing Lloyd George's propensity to do it, a general mood of reform and political calculation together, if the post-Unionist Government wanted to make a powerful statement that all citizens are equal, the era of sectarianism is at an end and so on, then disestablishment of all three Churches would be a powerfully symbolic way of doing this. Combine it with home rule all round, electoral and political reform (elected Lords too, probably) and there's a powerful break with the past.
Of course the county squires and whatever remains of the Unionist establishment are going to be appalled, but that's the point, isn't it?
Dear God, I've been away for a bit and on vacation, and when I come back I find all this! Excellent, excellent job Ed - you've had me from the beginning, but this last updates, and the Macmillan piece, simply blow my mind. I bow to your excellence sir.In case it may be of help, if there are any of the flags you want me to redo for you, change in tastes or something doesn't seem to fit anymore, shoot me a PM and I'll see what I can do.
Again, excellent work!
Disestablishment certainly seems logical, as mentioned the C of E is the exception not the rule with British state churches, I'm suprised its still in its position today TBH, strikes me as a logical move for some nonconformist (in more than one sense of the word) PM, Gladstone, L-G, hell even MacDonald had he ever managed a majority, to enact in OTL.
Also should have guessed from the flag, Canada going neutral during the Great War is excellent, Canada's awkward position in the Empire is never really used in TL, lovely stuff.
By the by, are OTL Windsors still stuck in Britain? Wheeled out for FWR kinemascopes - Colleague Saxe-Coburg-Gotha?
Also should have guessed from the flag, Canada going neutral during the Great War is excellent, Canada's awkward position in the Empire is never really used in TL, lovely stuff.
By the by, are OTL Windsors still stuck in Britain? Wheeled out for FWR kinemascopes - Colleague Saxe-Coburg-Gotha?
In case it may be of help, if there are any of the flags you want me to redo for you, change in tastes or something doesn't seem to fit anymore, shoot me a PM and I'll see what I can do.
Again, excellent work!
Thank you! Actually, I'm in the process of sorting out something in which I can put those fantastic Workers' Republics flags you did for me. So if I run into any problems, I'll let you know.
By the by, are OTL Windsors still stuck in Britain? Wheeled out for FWR kinemascopes - Colleague Saxe-Coburg-Gotha?
Some will be- while not technically a Windsor, for example, Colleague Battenhill is reasonably high-up in the Indian Workers' Republic- but the family of the Duke of York (OTL's George V) are safely abroad, having acted as somebody else's royal family for a few decades by the time of the revolution.
That can't be a coincidence! PCSwitaj may wish to consult his lawyers...
Vivisfugue
Banned
A world where antidisestablishmentarianism fails? This is indeed a disturbing universe.
This is indeed a disturbing universe.Nah, there are quite a few flag designs that I vaguely remember seeing on this forum. Wait...
Not to be entirely off-topic. Are those interviews parts of 'Where are they now?' segment or will it be a separate update?
This is a VERY unimportant thought but in the back of my head today, I thought given Germany's 'good guy' role in the Great War, a major (i.e. internationally influential) German film industry combined with France's dominance in airships and super-projects like the Sahara Railway, the movie archetype of the German mad scientist (evil or otherwise) may be replaced with a French one. Meanwhile the British aristocrat will probably superceed his Prussian counterpart on both sides of the Atlantic as your primary 'snob' villain.
......
KAISER GEORG I !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Please
...... KAISER GEORG I !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Please
Haha, that's kinda neat; anyway, no need to contact lawyers or anything, just a wonderful case of people seeing the same symbols (hammer) and coming up with something neat with them. Besides, I have all my working images in Paint, like what I sent you, so I could defend myself if need be haha. Although, to be honest, I do like my flag better
.Sounds good to me!
maverick
Banned
Damn, Europe itself seems to have produced a plethora of states, and the 1940 map isn't that specific about what countries are monarchies and which are republics, so it could be Serbia, Poland, Croatia-Slavonia, Bulgaria, Romania, Ukraine, one of the Baltic States, or by some weird succession crisis, even Bohemia, Hungary, Austria or Germany itself!
Then again, who knows...maybe the King did end up as King of New Zealand after all.
I Blame Communism
Banned
To narrow it down, I recall a passing reference to Hapsburg Poland, Hungary, and Ukraine (and Croatia?) somewhere, which would certainly make sense. I feel, then, that the Baltic states, being like Ukraine and Poland carved out of Russia in the war, have German monarchs. Serbia's got their own lot, or rather, several - and if he was king of Serbia, someone would have assasinated him by now, anyway.
I call Bulgaria, Greece, or perhaps Finland, if they got tired of their Romanov for some reason. Norway's theoretically possible, I suppose.
It's going to be Kurdistan or something, I know, and this will turn out to have been within an inch of happening IOTL.
The interviews are the "Where are they now" segment, pretty much- over the course of them, a lot of people get mentioned, albeit sometimes in a subtle way.
After the interviews, there will be something that focuses on the FWR- how it came to be, how it's organised, etc. Although not from the most unbiased source, obviously!
This is certainly plausible. Britain isn't going to have a massive film industry ITTL as the Unionists aren't overly keen on the medium, so there are going to be lots of British actors knocking around Babeslberg and Longwood (the main German and US studios respectively- of this, more later). I expect several will fall into the OTL Erich von Stroheim niche.
The other villainous role will almost certainly be the outwardly refined but actually unspeakably barbaric Russian Nobleman, knout and all.
As for the 'mad scientist', I'm not sure tbh. Metropolis played a big role in establishing the trope, and Germany will have an excellent scientific reputation ITTL as OTL. I suspect this is one palce where there might be a fair bit of convergence.
KAISER GEORG I !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Heh, not quite, but I'm going to avoid being drawn on this one...
Haha, that's kinda neat; anyway, no need to contact lawyers or anything, just a wonderful case of people seeing the same symbols (hammer) and coming up with something neat with them. Besides, I have all my working images in Paint, like what I sent you, so I could defend myself if need be haha. Although, to be honest, I do like my flag better
I probably should have put a
in there- but yes, I agree that the FWR flag is far better then that one. Anyhow, time for a smidgin of new content- a list of Prime Ministers, 1874-1938...
I Blame Communism
Banned
Alexander's regnal number warms the cockles of my heart.
That the Unionists aren't very keen on film is hardly surprising, of course, and it makes me think: Noel Coward, for one, was convinced that the British music-hall tradition was sent into decline by the disjoint of WW1 and the subsequent ascent of American-dominated cinema. With no WW1, and American and German cinema kept at bay by Unionist censors, it seems to me that the culture would be healthier come the revolution than it was in the mid-30s IOTL - when it was by no means dead.
So, I can't help wondering: what's a Syndicalist music-hall like?
That the Unionists aren't very keen on film is hardly surprising, of course, and it makes me think: Noel Coward, for one, was convinced that the British music-hall tradition was sent into decline by the disjoint of WW1 and the subsequent ascent of American-dominated cinema. With no WW1, and American and German cinema kept at bay by Unionist censors, it seems to me that the culture would be healthier come the revolution than it was in the mid-30s IOTL - when it was by no means dead.
So, I can't help wondering: what's a Syndicalist music-hall like?
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So Albert Victor only makes it to 51 ITTL? Such an early death seems odd. His father (OTL) was nearly 70 when he passed away and all his siblings lived well into their 60s. Furthermore, to the best of my knowledge, despite his premature death, Albert was not man of frail health.
What carried him off in the end?
What carried him off in the end?