TL-191: Filling the Gaps

TL 191 Filling the Gaps

For those of you who have read Jo Waltons Farthing series you know its mentioned in passing that the US and UK fought a war in the 1950s. It would also seem that the UK won leaving the US a third rate power as of 1960. So sepecualte. What could this war or a similar war have been over given the ATL where the Nazis won WW2 and the UK is a junior partner? Where and how was it fought? How was it concluded ?
 
For those of you who have read Jo Waltons Farthing series you know its mentioned in passing that the US and UK fought a war in the 1950s. It would also seem that the UK won leaving the US a third rate power as of 1960. So sepecualte. What could this war or a similar war have been over given the ATL where the Nazis won WW2 and the UK is a junior partner? Where and how was it fought? How was it concluded ?


Since your the New Guy. Let me say welcome to the board :). I'll let you know about this: What you just did is called Thread Jacking or sometimes referred to as Trolling: i.e. The intentional diverting of a thread. If you wanna talk about this series then start a new thread :).
 
Robert Taft, 1889-1943

The grandson of a Cabinet member and son of a Congressman, Robert Taft seemed destined for a career in politics. William Howard Taft was first elected to the House from a Cincinnati district when Robert was seven years old. The younger Taft was conscripted in 1907 and served in Third Army; when he was discharged he attended Yale. He deferred law school to spend a year in Philadelphia working as his father's aide, as the elder Taft had risen to Chairman of the Transportation Committee (where he became known for steering funds towards Cincinnati's state-of-the-art subway system). Robert Taft was still in Philadelphia when the Great War began.

He re-enlisted, and due to his father's influence, his previous service, and his college degree he was commissioned as a Second Lieutenant and re-assigned to Third Army, where he participated in the crossing of the Ohio near his home town. By the time his younger brother Charles was drafted in 1915, he had risen to company command, and the younger man was assigned to him. Charles too rose steadily in the ranks, attaining the rank of sergeant by early 1917. To avoid the appearance of favoritism, Charles participated in the same dangerous and undesirable duties as the other squad leaders, and March he was chosen by his brother to lead a raid on a stretch of trench east of Cooksville, Tennessee. The raid itself was successful, but Charles was shot in the back when several previously-unknown machine guns opened up on them during their return to their own lines. Hearing his brother's cries for help, Captain Robert Taft had to be held down by three of his own men lest he attempt a suicidal rescue mission. By the time the fire died down enough for the Red Cross volunteers to reach him, Charles was dead.

Although he would rarely speak pf his brother in later years, those few who became close to Robert Taft knew that his memory was always present. His battalion commander had him rotated to a rear area, and by the time he was due to go back into front-line duty, the war had ended. Taft began his long-postponed studies at Harvard; it was during this time that the Socialists swept the House, crushing his father's dream of becoming the Speaker.

Bob Taft, even more conservative than William (brother Charles had been the family liberal), was enraged at the demoralized Democratic minority's feeble opposition to President Sinclair's program, and depressed that he could do little from his Cincinnati law office. He ran for Congress in 1924 when his father retired, but was defeated in a Socialist landslide. Written off by many, the indomitable Taft fought for the nomination again in 1926, and this time took his father's seat. He quickly became a leader in the Democratic caucus, and when his party chose a nominee for the first ever popular Senate election in the Collapse year of 1932, Taft was their first choice and a landslide victor.

Taft was a loyal foot-soldier for Hoover in the Senate, backing him down the line on budget-balancing economic program, but he frequently broke with Hoover on the military and foreign-policy. He consistently promoted a hard line against the Confederacy and supported raising the military budget, even to the point of raising taxes to cover the expense. (In this area, he found an unlikely ally in the Hoover's Secretary of War, the Socialist Franklin Roosevelt.) Taft won a tenuous victory in 1938, despite Al Smith's victory in Ohio two years before. He was no less opposed to the domestic policies of President Smith than he had been to those of Sinclair and Blackford, but Taft saved most of his ammunition for foreign-policy. He regarded the normalization of Utah a reward of treason, and he believed the Richmond Agreement to be the greatest mistake any American president had ever made. Taft's fiery opposition led him to the Democratic nomination in 1940; he campaigned almost exclusively against the Richmond Agreement, while President Smith ran on a platform of future peace and prosperity. Taft was narrowly defeated, trailing Smith by less than a hundred thousand votes.

(A myth arose that Smith won only because the usually Democratic states of Houston and Kentucky went Socialist, in order to assure that the plebiscites would go forward. In reality, the late-reporting Western states provided just enough votes to put Smith over the top even without Houston and Kentucky. That the Freedom Party encouraged its followers to vote for Smith in 1940 cannot be denied.)

Taft returned to the Senate in 1941, and was in Philadelphia when his home state was overrun by the Army of Kentucky in Operation Blackbeard. He was elected to the Joint Committee on the Conduct of the War, as one of the two Democratic Senators (the other being Harry Truman of Missouri). In 1942, Congress voted to retain any Representative or Senator from an area occupied by the Confederacy, relieving him of the burden to prepare for his 1944 campaign. As the ranking minority member on the Joint Committee, he strongly protested President La Follette's policy towards the Mormon rebels, and investigated incompetence and corruption in the military. He often made common cause with Flora Blackford, a hawkish Socialist from New York.

Taft's views on the Mormon problem proved prescient - he was killed in Philadelphia in 1943 by one of the first Mormon people bombers. It is believed that he was specifically targeted, though this has never been proven. A memorial of Al Smith and Robert Taft, political enemies joined in death by martyrdom, was unveiled in Philadelphia in 1948.
 
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Kingdom of Italy

Although a founding member of the Quadruple Alliance, Italy became the rare country to remain neutral in both Great Wars. Austria had always been a key opponent of Italian unification, and the "Italy irredenta" of Trentino and Istria were an emotional issue in Italian politics. Thus, though Italy valued Germany's support, the alliance with the Habsburg Empire was always an uneasy partnership.

Like Germany, a young country itself, Italy craved a colonial empire, and to that end it invaded Ethiopia in the 1880s. Defeated by the Russian-backed Ethiopians despite British support, Italy was deeply embarrassed and nearly discredited as a member of the Alliance, which now included the United States. The government fell in the wake of the disaster, and Giovanni Giolitti took office as Prime Minister, a post he would hold for the most of the next three decades. He sent troops into the Ottoman Empire's North African provinces in 1911; the conquered lands were merged into the colony of Libya.

Although a smashing success and a redemption for Ethiopia, the Italo-Turkish War did much to sunder Italy's remaining bonds to the rest of the Alliance. Germany was courting Turkey in order to complete the Berlin-Baghdad Railway, and wished to use the Ottomans against Russia in case of a European war. None of this halted or even slowed Italian adventurism, and just prior to the Great War it pursued designs against the Kingdom of Greece. A leftist general strike in May 1914 briefly occupied the attention of Europe before they turned to the more amusing Anglo-German regatta in Kiel.

Surprising few, Italy refused to honor its commitment to the Alliance, claiming that it was for defensive purposes only and that Austria-Hungary had provoked a war with Serbia. Prime Minister Antonio Salandra actually favored entering the war on the Entente side, but Giolitti, a still-powerful figure, and a majority of the legislature favored neutrality. Salandra bided his time and waited for an opportunity to declare war, and entered into secret negotiations in early 1915. But a copy of the draft agreement was intercepted by the United States Embassy in Rome, which promptly passed it on to Giolitti. When he published it in March 1915, the resulting firestorm made the Red Week of 1914 look like schoolyard fight. The antiwar Socialists declared a general strike, and deputies of all stripes voted to condemn the secret treaty. Salandra resigned, and was replaced by Giolitti.

Italy grew rich off trading with both sides, and when the Brusilov Offensive nearly broke Austria's back in mid-1916, Giolitti cannily offered to purchase the Italian-speaking Austrian provinces (an offer the Germans heartily supported, having grown tired of coming to their ally's rescue). It was rejected, but nonetheless the Italians emerged from the war having lost less and gained more than any power save Japan.

The nationalist right seethed at the lost opportunity to redeem Trentino, and Gabrielle D'Annunzio of the right and Benito Mussolini (a former Socialist) of the far-right campaigned against this "treason" in the 1918 elections, though their enraged accusations fell on deaf ears; Mussolini, leader of his own "Fascist" party, failed to even secure a seat. (His famous pledge to make the trains run on time was met laughter inside and outside the slow rhythms of Italy.) Mussolini made a niche for himself using his black-shirted Fascist faithful (similar to the later Silver Shirts in Britain and the Freedom Party stalwarts in the Confederacy) as strikebreakers in the turbulent postwar years, but his success at this endeavor caused him to grow overbold. After another defeat in the 1920 elections, d'Annunzio and Mussolini attempted to lead a "March on Rome" to overthrow Giolitti's government. D'Annunzio was murdered during the event, possibly on Mussolini's orders, and the demoralized Fascists put up a poor fight when Giolitti sent the Army to break them up. Mussolini was arrested, tried, and convicted, and spent five years in prison; upon his release, he found that his political base had evaporated.

Under the successive governments of the liberal Francesco Nitti and the socialist Ivanoe Bonomi, Italy prospered in the 1920s. In 1926, Bonomi negotiated the purchase of Tunisia from a cash-poor France, which struggled to pay its reparations to Germany. Bonomi was replaced by Nitti once more, who fell to the conservative former general Emilio de Bono, who governed throughout most of the 1930s. While Italy suffered just as much as any other nation during the Collapse, the lack of social disruption from the war and any large radicalized group prevented the country from falling into totalitarianism as did so many other countries. De Bono did organize an invasion of Ethiopia under Peitro Badoglio in 1936; its failure led almost directly to his fall from office.

De Bono was replaced by the young liberal Ferruccio Parri in 1938, who was in office when the Second Great War began. Citing the example of Giolitti theiry years before, he kept Italy neutral throughout the war, though an army stood ready to seize Trentino if an Alliance collapse ever appeared likely. Bordering both France and Austria-Hungary, Italy was once again able to fatten its coffers by supplying both sides. Ships flying the Italian flag were able to sail unmolested, for fear of provoking a declaration of war.

With Austria-hungary still facing nationalist uprisings, Germany rebuilding, and France under occupation, the Mediterranean has become a virtual Italian lake, and the country is believed to have designs on the Suez Canal in Ottoman Egypt. It is also known that they have begun a superbomb project, using talent from the French and British programs who escaped their defeated homes. Germany and the United States made a joint protest in 1946 under the terms of the Dewey Doctrine, but Italy made no response. (A German proposal to sell Trentino and Istria in exchange for an end to the bomb was nixed by Austria.) A workable weapon is expected before 1950.
 
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hm, Here's a Thought.

Turtledove never Really talked about How Hawaii became part of the Brit's Commonwealth, so what's the fate of the Following:

Sanford Dole
Lorrin Thurston
Queen Lili'uokalani
Robert William Wilcox
John Tyler Morgan

With Morgan I can imagine he's somewhat responsible for Longstreet's push for Sonora and Chihuahua.
He was an expansionist.
 
Multipartisanship in the US Cabinet

From 1885-1920, Democrats dominated Congress and the Powel House, and though an occasional Republican would find his way into one of the Executive Departments, Socialists were shut out of power nearly entirely.

This changed with Upton Sinclair's victory, of course, but in a gesture of conciliation (and in gratitude for Theodore Roosevelt's gracious exit) he promised that his cabinet would always contain at least one Democrat and one Republican. To that end, he appointed Henry C. Wallace, a Republican from Iowa, Secretary of Agriculture in 1921, and installed the Democrat Charles Evan Hughes at the Justice Department (the canny Sinclair may have inteded to sideline Hughes for 1924; if so, it worked. Wallace's son would later serve in a Socialist Administration as well, as a member of the Party himself).

Wallace died in 1923, and a Socialist replaced him. In 1925, Sinclair offered Republican James Watson of Indiana the State Department, which Eugene Debs was vacating, but Watson refused. The job went to Allan Benson, a Socialist from Wisconsin, and Republican Senator George Norris of Nebraska was given the Interior Department when it opened up in 1926 (Norris himself would later switch to the Socialists during the Hoover years, and chaired the Joint Committee on the Conduct of the War).

Blackford continued the tradition, retaining Norris for a few years and appointing moderate Democrat Tom Walsh of Montana as Secretary of Commerce and Industry. But it was cemented with the Hoover Administration; the first Democratic President since Theodore Roosevelt appointed TR's distant cousin Franklin as Secretary of War. He tried to move Michigan Senator Arthur Vandenberg, leader of the Republicans, into the spot first, but Vandenberg declined, and Hoover instead appointed Kansas Governor Alf Landon to Agriculture.

Socialist Al Smith broke slightly with tradition by appointing two Democrats: Henry Adams Jr. of Massachusetts as Secretary of the Navy, and California's Magnus Warren as Attorney General. Warren left early in 1941 to prepare to run for Governor of California, and was replaced by Robert Jackson, a Socialist from New York State. (He made up for the slight to the GOP by appointing their longtime leader, James Watson, to the Supreme Court, to the consternation of most of his party.) Smith died before making any more changes, and Charles La Follette did not appoint any Republicans or Democrats to the Cabinet (though several joined the new wartime agencies which sprung up).

Dewey has not appointed any Republicans either, surely a reflection the party's steadily waning influence. Socialist John Reed currently serves as Secretary of War, while another, Carl Sandburg, is Ambassador to the German Empire.
 
hm, Here's a Thought.

Turtledove never Really talked about How Hawaii became part of the Brit's Commonwealth, so what's the fate of the Following:

Sanford Dole
Lorrin Thurston
Queen Lili'uokalani
Robert William Wilcox
John Tyler Morgan

With Morgan I can imagine he's somewhat responsible for Longstreet's push for Sonora and Chihuahua.
He was an expansionist.

Working on the Hawaii situation, which is what my Pacific post morphed into. It's currently saved on another computer, though, so I just made up an excuse to stuff a bunch of names into a post.
 
What about Robert LaFollete, Margaret Sanger, Charles Lindbergh, William
Bankhead, Sam Rayburn, and how the confederates managed to get an atomic bomb before the US.
 
What about Robert LaFollete, Margaret Sanger, Charles Lindbergh, William
Bankhead, Sam Rayburn, and how the confederates managed to get an atomic bomb before the US.

I'm not even touching that one.

I imagine Robert La Follette as a Congressman, Governor, Senator who runs for President and loses - not far from his actual career. I'm positing that Charles W. La Follette of Wisconsin is a son he never had in OTL. '

To go along with conscription and rationing, I can imagine the Democrats being pro-natalist in TL-191. Margaret Sanger very likely ended up doing serious prison time at some point, before the laws were relaxed some in the 1920s and 1930s.
 
good updates. I believe Sam Rayburn was a southerner (IIRC). Charles LaFollette did exist and was Bob LaFollette's son he was a Wisconsin Gov. in the '30s
 
Sandwich Islands

The long history of warfare among the Polynesian tribes might have been expected to end with the unification of the Kingdom of Hawaii under Kamehameha in 1810, but strife continued as European powers set their eyes upon this would-be tropical paradise. In the decades between unification and the American Civil War, there were numerous skirmished with the French and British. In 1864, US Secretary of State William Seward negotiated a treaty of reciprocity with Kamehameha V, but it failed to pass the Senate by the requisite two-thirds vote. The next President, Horatio Seymour, was more concerned with disposing of the national debt run up during the war and pursuing a treaty of commerce with the Confederates, and American designs for the Sandwich Islands faded away.

A crisis erupted in 1873, when Kamehameha, lacking a male heir lay on his deathbed. He summoned his eldest daughter and offered her the crown, but she refused, and the throne remained vacant upon his death. The British, the only power on the scene (the US having lost interested and the French rocked by their defeat to Prussia) immediately swooped in and installed a favored relative of the king, David Kalakaua, on the throne, and helped royal forces suppress a republican rebellion. Kalakaua, in turn, signed a treaty of reciprocity that was quite favorable to British traders, who grew to monopolize power on the islands.

The US still recognized the Kingdom of Hawaii as sovereign, so it was not until that country was defeated in 1882 that they moved once more. With the US helpless to intervene, the increasingly assertive Kalakaua was forced to abdicate in favor of his sister, Liliuokalani. The queen proved ambitious herself, and rebelled against British rule in 1895, in the forlorn hope of attracting American support. She was defeated and exiled to French Polynesia, and the Kingdom of Hawaii was no more, replaced by the crown colony of the Sandwich Islands. Sanford Dole, an American citizen who had backed the British in overthrowing the queen, was made a British subject in recognition for role and appointed governor, at the head of a civil service that came to be staffed by both Englishmen and Islanders. A native rebellion led by Robert Wilcox (who had fought against Liliuokalani alongside the British) was suppressed in 1897, and Wilcox's death sentence was commuted to exile at the behest of Governor Dole. The Sandwich Islands remained peaceful for nearly twenty years.

As tensions with the Americans increased over the Nicaragua crisis, the British came to see the Sandwich Islands less as a commercial opportunity and more as a strategic bulwark. A large naval base was constructed at Pearl Harbor on Oahu to house a squadron of the Royal Navy, while a regiment of Royal Marines was kept on hand to supplement the local Honolulu Rifles. On a ceremonial tour in 1911, the new First Lord of the Admiralty, Winston Churchill, judged the position too weak (he had just completed an official visit with the United States Navy, and witnessed the success of the superfiring turrets on the new Maine-class battleship) and ordered one of the inventive schemes for which he was to become notorious. The result was Fort William Rufus, an artificial island completed in 1913, universally known as the "Concrete Battleship."

(Though officially named for an English king in medieval times, Churchill may have intended it as a gibe at President Aldrich's Secretary of State, William Rufus Day. In series of increasingly hostile private notes, Day and then President of the Board of Trade Churchill had dueled over Aldrich's protectionist policies. In one letter, Churchill asked "Do you intend to be a fortress unto yourself, shielding the fair shores of the New World from any commerce with the Old?" When Day published the correspondence following his retirement from politics, Churchill was rebuked by Prime Minister Asquith and laterally promoted to the Admiralty.)

In August 1914, three-fourths of the US Navy's Pacific Fleet launched an attack on the Sandwich Islands. Their timing was marvelous, as they struck the first blow less than twenty-four hours after the declaration of war had been received in London. The task force sailed around the northern end of the island chain and attacked Pearl Harbor from the west, avoiding those few Royal Navy ships that had put to sea. The battleships Dakota, New York, Rhode Island, and Delaware were able to suppress the coastal forts, and the British flotilla was forced to attempt a breakout through the narrow mouth of the harbor. Facing broadsides and only able to return fire with their forward turrets, the Royal Navy force was annihilated. A division of the Sixth Army and a brigade from the Third Marine Division landed and took the forts and base from the rear. (Another Marine brigade landed on the north shore of Oahu and captured the Dole Barracks, while two others invaded the islands of Hawaii and Maui.)

The Sandwich Islands were taken, but unusable as long as the Concrete Battleship blocked Pearl Harbor. The American warships could close and fire upon it, but the enormously thick concrete walls of the fort withstood all attempts to reduce the Battleship, while its twelve-inch guns wreaked havoc, sinking the John Paul Jones and several destroyers, as well as damaging the New York and the Delaware, putting the latter out of action for several months. The Concrete Battleship thus did more damage than the entire Sandwich Islands Squadron had managed in the main battle. Admiral George Dewey, the task force's commander, offered the garrison an honorable surrender and safe passage to Japanese and British waters, but this was refused. Finally, a Captain King of Admiral Dewey's staff hit upon a brilliant idea - realizing that the rear of the fort was uncovered, he had a mixed force of sailors and marines make a landing using a freighter, and pump the Battleship full of fuel oil. When the combat engineers' charges detonated, the fort went up in an explosion that would go unrivaled until the destruction of Petrograd thirty years later.

The Sandwich Islands belonged to the United States, even if the Islanders had not. Over nearly two decades, the native population grew used to the relatively light British hand, and many came to be proud at their status as one of the most important outposts of the British Empire. Although acts of violence and sabotage against US forces were relatively rare compared to Kentucky or Belgium, an elaborate espionage network soon grew into place. As the Englishmen who'd owned and managed the enormous rice and sugar plantations came under immediate suspicion, the most effective operatives tended to be Islanders. (The Japanese underclass which toiled on the plantations tended not to notice who owned the islands at any given moment.)

Thanks to their efforts, the Royal Navy knew within days how many ships had entered Pearl Harbor, and how many had left. One such spy was John Liholiho, a descendant of Kalakaua and son of a senior civil servant to the last British governor, Lorrin Thurston; after a tip from two American sailors, he was captured and executed in 1917, giving up the names of several compatriots and compromising the entire network in the process. The exception was the prostitute and businesswoman Maggie Stevenson, who passed on information from 1914 all the way to 1944, when she liquidated her many assets and fled the Sandwich Islands for parts unknown.

The US kept the islands after the war, and they were organized as an territory in 1923, though racial sentiment and military necessity cut short any debate over statehood. The Supreme Court repeatedly held that the Constitution did not apply there throughout the 1920s, decisions supported by both the Socialists and the Democrats. Still, the Islands were much freer than Canada, and no major uprising occurred over the next thirty years, even during the Pacific War with the Empire of Japan - the growing Japanese middle class remained loyal to the government under which they were leaving serfdom.

In contrast to 1932-1934, the Japanese Combined Fleet made an all-out effort to invade the Sandwich Islands in the Second Great War, but the Second Battle of Midway ended the threat. With the Utah War over as well and the US government determined not to allow another rebellion, Congress in 1945 authorized the exile of several thousand Mormons (military, commercial, and religious leaders) to the island of Molokai, the site of an old leper colony. The Mormons are strictly isolated on a peninsula protected by enormous sea cliffs, and the exiles are serving a lifetime sentence.

In 1946, the United States Congress narrowly defeated a bill to incorporate the territory, granting Constitutional protection to its residents.
 
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good updates. I believe Sam Rayburn was a southerner (IIRC). Charles LaFollette did exist and was Bob LaFollette's son he was a Wisconsin Gov. in the '30s

Robert La Follette had two sons, Bob Jr. and Philip. Philip was indeed a Wisconsin Governor, but their cousin Charles M. La Follette was an Indiana Congressman.
 
I'm gonna piggy back on Fenrir and GSM and say you handled the Sandwich Islands really well :)

On the subject of Charles W. La Follette, perhaps (assuming his father is OTL's Robert M. La Follette Sr.) perhaps, as Craigo has mentioned, a son presumably born after Philip...maybe even Robert's daughter Mary is instead born a boy in TTL...
 
I'm gonna piggy back on Fenrir and GSM and say you handled the Sandwich Islands really well :)

On the subject of Charles W. La Follette, perhaps (assuming his father is OTL's Robert M. La Follette Sr.) perhaps, as Craigo has mentioned, a son presumably born after Philip...maybe even Robert's daughter Mary is instead born a boy in TTL...

I would say HT screwed up the research or he implements his butterflies gradually.
 
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