Canada Wank (YACW)

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Dathi

I know you used 7th December partly as a joke but think it's going to be all too accurate in terms of how angry the various victims are going to be. Also attacking all their neighbours is going to really stretch the US. This could be quite a long war but its going to be bloody and costly, especially for the US. They have big and elaborate plans but I suspect its not only in Florida that things are going to come apart.
Actually I picked the December 15 attack date as about the earliest the US could attack while having water travel impeded. So they have the most time available to make progress.

Then I dated the ultimata to 1 December. Then figured, what the heck, since they obviously are trying to do a pro forma official DoW before anyone can respond, let's make it ONE week. Which made it the 8th. Then, and only then did 'December 7' leap out and demand to appear in the TL:)
 
I think the big question in the short term is how much have the US learnt from the previous conflict about logistics. They have much better communications and supply lines but an advance by ~100k men in mid-winter is going to need some very good planning and a lot of luck or things could get very bad for the forces involved.


With Mexico's stance - 'we're not at war with you, honest gov' have they made any statement about the central American state - forget exactly what it was called? If they have made commitments not to attack that and show signs of keeping them then Britain might find it useful to keep up a state of phoney war, at least for the moment.
Ummm... The US/Mexican forces are as numerous as the ENTIRE population of Tejas. Even if Mexico says they are planning letting the US do all the heavy lifting, they are, at absolute minimum going to free up US troops for use elsewhere. In practice, they are going to get sucked in to the fighting (probably). Given that, the Brits don't see they have a choice, really. Most of the British reaction there will be cutting sea-borne supply lines, etc. Besides, Britain and Tejas have a treaty. Britain has to declare war on Mexico once Mexico invades Tejas. They don't have to DO much, given their other commitments, but they really want to keep those troops as far from Louisiana as long as possible.

Central America is (so far) UPCA United Provinces of Central America. And they are not going to declare war on Mexico (yet), nor vice versa.

On that matter wasn't the Texan ruler a member of the Bavarian dynasty. That might be useful for some support for him. I would also expect that, unless Texas gets conquered pretty quickly, which I suspect it won't, Britain and the rest of the alliance will come to its support sooner or later.

Umm.... Ah... Let's see. Ja, that's it, I was only talking about BRITAIN's search for allies, I didn't forget my own TL. Gee, how stupid would that be...:(:p Umm.. You DO believe me don't you?

Thanks. I'd not included that in my plans, which was really doofus. Of course, even Tejas didn't expect the invasion, so they weren't looking for troops.
 
I think the big question in the short term is how much have the US learnt from the previous conflict about logistics. They have much better communications and supply lines but an advance by ~100k men in mid-winter is going to need some very good planning and a lot of luck or things could get very bad for the forces involved.
Apparently I forgot to address this yesterday.

The US has not only learned very well from the last war, they have even figured out SOME of the implications of the technologies that will feed into this war. (Which is better than many military establishments:))

As for 'forward supply', they have figured out the expected rate of consumption of most goods for the entire period until the rivers melt again, and have at least 80% in place. The only reason it's not 100%+ is that they expect to be able to use British/Canadian stores (for instance, the wing of the army that's occupying eastern Illinois is requisitioning food from the locals, so they don't need food supply from US Quartermasters. Similarly, the various border forts on the British side are well stocked and taking a few of them will help.

THings they CAN'T take from the British (caps for US guns, Maceroni rockets, e.g.) they have stockpiled to OVER 100% of expected supply.

Actually, the US military is making all the right moves, given what they know, and given the political imperatives of attempting a multi-front war (against the world's largest empire - although, to be fair, it's an empire that has to cross oceans to defend, which is tough).

OTOH, "given what they know" is an important phrase. The US never really participated in the Napoleonic mechanized meat grinder, so even their senior officers don't have a gut feel for what it entails, and this war is going to involve industrial warfare - not on the scale of OTL's ACW, but closer to that than OTL ever saw in this time period.

In particular, NEITHER side comprehends the level of ammunition consumption that will be involved.


Edit: given this is an extended winter campaign using horses, and that the US has stockpiled the supplies it needs, you don't want to even try to imagine the mountains of hay and cities of oat-granaries...
 
I see, Daði, but I think that there are going to be areas of logistics where the US is either:

*Overconfident
*Underprepared/under-estimated
*Did not take into account/Did not do the research - this latter point is even more so in the case of *New England

In other words, despite the near-perfect logistics, there's probably some flaw in their thinking that could be easily exploited.
 
Allied Response

Allied Response



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Spain[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Spain is absolutely shocked by the American declaration of war and attack on East Florida. They were absolutely sure the US would tackle the British first – or only. Some ministers had warned that West Florida was in some danger, and had convinced the regent Don Carlos to upgrade the defences at Pensacola and Mobile. He was willing to do that much – but partly because of his suspicions of British designs on those towns. What no one seriously expected was the full fledged invasion of East Florida. West Florida, the US had some claim on, however tenuous, as it was their contention that it was included in the Louisiana Purchase, but East Florida was never anything the US had claimed. Desired, yes. Claimed, no.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Spain immediately suspends all commercial traffic with the US (especially in militarily sensitive items like gunpowder and mercury), and sends messengers to Portugal and Britain asking for cooperation, if not alliance, and for possible assistance in shipping her forces to America. (Britain cheerfully agrees to buy the mercury that the US had ordered and will now not receive.)[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Over the next few months, Spain signs a treaty of friendship with Britain and Portugal (not an alliance, per se, - basically a non-aggression pact for the next 5 years or duration of the war), and makes arrangements to use British and Portuguese shipping to help move her army. As the army wasn't ready to move, it takes time get the full force ready to go. But, by the end of June 10k men have been shipped to Florida.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Portugal[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The first 2 regiments ship out within a week of hearing that war was declared, headed for Halifax. By the end of March all 5k are in Canada.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The reduced tensions with Spain mean that another 2k can be freed up, and shipped out by June. In the same timeframe, 2k colonial troops are raised and shipped to Louisiana.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif](Although Spain is a co-belligerent, rather than an ally, she does agree to a swap whereby some tropic-adapted troops (e.g. Portuguese African colonial troops and/or British black Caribbean troops) might be swapped for European Spanish troops – so e.g. a unit of Spaniards fight in Tejas, while a unit of black troops fights in Florida.)[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Britain (military)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Britain is perturbed at how early war was declared. They had been expecting another couple of months, at least, and all their preparations were geared to that schedule. Still, preparations are in train for significant troop movements, it's just a matter of speeding things up. Within a week, the first regiments are boarding ships and sailing for Boston. They HOPE New England will agree to shipping all the troops by rail. If they don't the troops can be unloaded in Halifax and march west. The original plans, of course, were to land them in Montreal, but it will be frozen over by the time the troops get there. By the time the troops arrive in Halifax, arrangements have been made with New England to allow the free transport of allied troops north to Montreal. So British and Portuguese troops will both travel that route. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Much of the Royal Navy ups anchor and sets sail for Halifax, preparing for war and for the blockade of the US coast. Both the Atlantic coast and the Gulf coast. Once it's realized that Mexico is in the war, the Gulf task force is reinforced and interdicts traffic along the Mexican coast as well. The Portuguese and New Englander navies are a major help here, and the Spanish a minor one. Token deployments by the Brazilians and the Texians (their entire navy of two ships) add to the force. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Britain (diplomatic/undercover)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The accumulated obsolete muskets are now funnelled to partisans inside the US boundaries, both through Spanish territory, across the Mississippi and up and down the entire seaboard. Some are distributed to hastily raised black militia units within Louisiana.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Given that Mexico has declared war (on Tejas, at least), arms are also smuggled into Nuevo Leon and Tamauplipas (the abortive 'Rio Grande Republic' ) and Yucatan (which is still in rebellion against Mexico). UPCA is encouraged to fortify their northern border, but to stay neutral for now.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]British (armaments)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The British have been supplying percussion cap rifles to their Marines for a couple of years now[1]. The Marines have greater need of a weapon that is resistant to wet (rain/spray). So, the British have been experimenting with caps, it's just that they were a lower priority, and produced in fairly small quantities. Now, however, that the production of Norton rifles is in hand, they can start converting some of the production of them to caplocks. Actually, much of the production of the last year or so has been of a model that is readily converted from flintlock to caplock. They also need to massively increase their cap production (which taking over the US mercury contracts makes possible). Wanting to increase production more than is feasible or safe for British producers by themselves, the Brits outsource some of the production to France and the Germanies, to increase the number of skilled workers (especially chemists) available. France is happy to the expansion of her industry paid for by Britain <g> - this is a commercial proposition, nothing like an alliance. In fact, France has every intent to take about half the increased production for her own military and use it in case of future conflict – which could easily be with Britain.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Canada/British North America[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]As in the War of 1812, military control for all British North America is centralized, and orchestrated from Canada. Nova Scotia and Louisiana WILL function as integral parts of the Canadian military machine. They can argue later about the future political ramifications, but their militias and military units will be directed from Winchester. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]10k decent militia are collected in the Maritimes (mostly Nova Scotia and New Brunswick), and half are immediately sent to Canada (via Boston). The threat of US invasion soon becomes an obvious phantom[2], and most of the rest are released to Canada by mid summer.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]New England[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]New England is very scared of the US. They see the 100k soldiers attacking the Protectorate, and are afraid that the US can come up with a similar force against them. This may not be an entirely reasonable fear, but it is very real. At the moment, the New Englander militias are all focussed on the NE/US border, and they aren't willing to send troops into Canada. Over time this may change. Where the New Englanders are a huge help, is navally. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Tejas[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Tejas screams bloody murder, and demands that Britain honour their treaty, and defend Tejas NOW. Britain basically says “Sure, we'll help you get your country back once we've dealt with the US, but we're kind of busy right now, don't jog our elbow.” Then word comes down from Winchester. If the Texian military will put itself under British command, and be an organic part of the Canadian army, well, something CAN be done, now. No demands are yet made that the Duke swear fealty to Sophia and Peter or that Tejas join Canada, but as with Nova Scotia and Louisiana, the future is left 'to be negotiated'. Obviously, there are strong limits on just WHAT can be done, as the US-Mexican force has about as many soldiers as the entire population of Tejas. They are clearly meaning to do more than just take Tejas back, and anything that the Brits/Canadians can do to slow the advance on Louisiana is a good thing.[/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1 The supplying of percussion caps to the Marines first is OTL, and in this time frame. With a muzzle-loading rifle, the percussion caps are less of an advantage than with breech loaders, but it's still an advantage. Most of the guns used in the US Civil War were caplock muzzle-loader rifles.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]2 basically the Duke of Wellington's (?) old line “I don't say they can not come, I will say they can not come by sea”.[/FONT]
 
Sounds good so far, Daði - though in the case of New England, the regular military would've probably become alert at the first news of attack and start getting ready for a potential invasion (which should be helped if they've already made war preparations beforehand).
 
Addenda to the “Allied Response”

My son wanted to use the computer earlier, so I rushed the post. Here's a handful of things I forgot to add.

Addenda to the “Allied Response”


  1. [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The New England militia are the predominant military force in the Republic. There is a national army, but it is mostly supply and command. The core of their militias, however, are exceedingly well trained. Up to what most countries would consider 'regular army' standards.[/FONT]
  2. [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Chile: They sent some transports to Hawaii, arriving in early December, allowing some of the East India transports to return to the subcontinent for another load of troops. Similarly, they sent a ship of the Line north to the west coast of the UPCA to arrive in time for the expected start of hostilities – in March, and were quite surprised to find the war was well under way. The ship sailed shortly before word reached the Chilean government that war was declared.[/FONT]
  3. [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]EIC forces. They reached Hawaii in early December (some earlier, depending on the weather en route). There they were met by the Chilean transports. Most of the troops continued on to the UPCA, arriving in early January, and are astounded that war has broken out. They are kept briefly in the UPCA until it is obvious that Mexico isn't attacking on that border, and then they are shipped to Louisiana, arriving late January. One ship went north to Oregon, instead of the UPCA, with a company of Irish EIC troops who were having problem with the tropical heat.[/FONT]
  4. [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]A few ships of the EIC force had to stay for a while in Hawaii to mend damages. However, the cavalry troops really needed some extra time to recover, too, so it worked out well. Both are ready to travel some time in January. [/FONT]
  5. [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]By the time the cavalry is ready to go, word has arrived concerning the war. Particularly Mexico's part in it. As the Hawaiian volunteer regiment is now ready, too, It is decided that the Bengal lancers and half the Hawaiians will go to California. The Sikh lancers and the other half of the Hawaiians will travel through the UPCA – ultimately to Tejas, but they don't know that until they get to the UPCA[/FONT]
  6. [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The interoceanic railroad has been completed, so transfer from the Pacific to the Atlantic is relatively easy, relatively quick, and few troops come down with tropical diseases.[/FONT]
 
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The New England militia are the predominant military force in the Republic. There is a national army, but it is mostly supply and command. The core of their militias, however, are exceedingly well trained. Up to what most countries would consider 'regular army' standards.[/FONT]

After this war, that situation is probably going to change. Once they realize that militia probably can't handle everything without coördination, that's probably when the national army has to take action.
 
Well, pretty much Henry Clay's rhetoric is spinning out of his control - hence we have militia in some conflict zones (including a stalemate along the NY/CT border). I don't know what Dathi has in store, but yeah - no one's amused at this point. Particularly since this is not going to be a long war by any stretch of the imagination.

I was thinking given the size of the forces that the US have organised and the planning they have put in that unless either things go totally pear-shaped in the north, or public support for the war totally collapses, which could happen after a big defeat, this could be pretty lengthy. Especially if the US have some dramatic early successes, both meaning the British [including here their allies for simplicity] are on the back-foot and have ground to make up and public opinion in the US are buoyed up by the early victories. Especially since while its raised a lot the US could probably raise a lot more forces while the support is there.

Backed up by anger at the defeat, racial contempt for a lot of their neighbours, land hunger and a lot of heated rhetoric there seems to be quite a head of steam there at the moment. Unless it totally explodes in their faces I could the war lasting at least a couple of years simply because of the size in terms of territory, manpower and economy of both sides. Can't see Britain being willing to compromise either, even if the US drops its demands considerably.

Not saying its going to end up with the occupation of much of the US or a decade long war, although not totally impossible. However doubt if it will be over by Christmas 44 - definitely not be Christmas 43.;)

Seriously, I doubt it, probably because the thinking in Washington is that nothing has changed (much), when the reality is that a lot has changed - for example, New England has now developed its own culture and national identity separate from the US, so they wouldn't look too kindly on any American attempt to conquer it. Not to mention that the New England economy has most likely developed to such a degree where essentially the US is pretty much left out of the picture and thus New England's economy is essentially independent of the American economy. Hence the logistics operations in New England are going to be different. Thus, any American attempt to take over New England is going to run into massive logistical problems, in addition to massive hostility.

Agree on NE but I was talking about the Indian protectorate, where the US are making their main push. Can't see them having too many logistical disasters in NE with their economic heartland being pretty much alongside, even with the massive expansion of the armed forces. However, as they advance away from the Ohio, in mid-winter, some nasty things could happen on the supply side.

I think he is.

Thanks. Thought I could remember that but too many TLs.

Steve
 
Ummm... The US/Mexican forces are as numerous as the ENTIRE population of Tejas. Even if Mexico says they are planning letting the US do all the heavy lifting, they are, at absolute minimum going to free up US troops for use elsewhere. In practice, they are going to get sucked in to the fighting (probably). Given that, the Brits don't see they have a choice, really. Most of the British reaction there will be cutting sea-borne supply lines, etc. Besides, Britain and Tejas have a treaty. Britain has to declare war on Mexico once Mexico invades Tejas. They don't have to DO much, given their other commitments, but they really want to keep those troops as far from Louisiana as long as possible.

Ouch! I kind of thought that Tejas would have had more people by now. That is going to be awkward. However it is fairly big and operating from Mexico I don't know what the logistics are going to be like.

Just thought. How strategic is the position of the Alamo? Was it totally chance that the Texans OTL made their stand there or was the Mexican line of advance largely dictated by the terrain? Wonder how news will spread of the gallant, if ultimately unsuccessful,:( defence of the old mission against the advancing American hordes.;)

I must admit this rather puzzles me even more than the attack on Spain. Even before 1812 Tejas was Spanish/Mexican territory and its now largely settled by Catholics from Europe? Also Mexico is supplying the base and a lot of the forces. Is there some deal to have it go to Mexico or does the US expect to get it as well. If the latter what the hell is Mexico getting involved in this bloodbath for?


Central America is (so far) UPCA United Provinces of Central America. And they are not going to declare war on Mexico (yet), nor vice versa.

I was thinking that, although Tejas guards the eastern flank of Louisiana the UPCA is probably economically more important to Britain because of the trade across the isthmus. Also its an area that OTL Mexico claimed and tried to control and is nearer to the Mexican heartlands. Hence I would have thought their attention would have been more directed southwards - although that less in US interests - and Britain would have been concerned about this. Hence I could see some concern on both sides, Britain that an attack might come here as well and Mexico that if it wants a limited war it needs to reassure Britain that it won't attack here. - Although having read the other threads on this page as you point out Britain has an alliance with Tejas so war will certainly follow. In which case is it in the interest of either side for a southern front.

Something could still happen by accident. A local commander exceeds his authority or British troops sent to the region to guard against an attack - or possibly in transit to elsewhere prompt Mexico to think an attacks coming, or vice-versa.

Umm.... Ah... Let's see. Ja, that's it, I was only talking about BRITAIN's search for allies, I didn't forget my own TL. Gee, how stupid would that be...:(:p Umm.. You DO believe me don't you?

Thanks. I'd not included that in my plans, which was really doofus. Of course, even Tejas didn't expect the invasion, so they weren't looking for troops.

Given the scope of the TL your bound to miss something or probably have a fair number of things that people will float and you think 'Oh I should include that'.:)

As you say Tejas wasn't expecting to be attacked. However now they will definitely be doing so. One other factor here, as an independent state, is what trade links they might have with other powers.

Be interesting if Clay extreme stance on US interest leads to Germanic intervention in N America.;)

Steve
 
Dathi

Right, this sounds like its going to be a long bloodbath then. Probably with a brief pause a few months in as both sides realise they have nothing to fight with until their economies gear up for something approaching total war.

Taking from captured stocks and the locals can save a lot on the logistics burden provided it works. If things come adrift or especially the defenders realise the US are relying to some degree on this things can get nasty. Would expect things to be patchy here. Some areas the US will surprised the defenders, gain supplies and make quick advances. Elsewhere they will get bogged down by conditions and or dogged defence and troops will start feeling very cold and hungry.

If the Americans are seizing food from the locals in mid-winter the latter are going to suffer very badly, even without probably a lot of racial contempt. On the plus side for the allies the US supply lines are going to tie up a lot of resources guarding them as defenders and angry/desperate locals seek to prevent supplies reaching the front.

I was thinking mainly of food and the like in a winter campaign in fairly northern, continental latitudes. May not be an invasion of Russia but not far off. Also the high command in Washington may have all the figures on stockpiles but will all the local quartermasters have the necessary experience to avoid problems. Especially when weather and defenders intervene.

The other problem of course with those mountains of grain and oats supplies is that their no good at the depots and moving them to the front in a timely manner is going to be a big tasks. Especially if conditions or defenders mean the number of horses start to decline. Much of this will increasingly be consumed by the logistics corps as they seek to move the other supplies to the front.

As you say both sides will run short of ammunition very quickly and think there will be a lot of initiative shown.

Steve

Apparently I forgot to address this yesterday.

The US has not only learned very well from the last war, they have even figured out SOME of the implications of the technologies that will feed into this war. (Which is better than many military establishments:))

As for 'forward supply', they have figured out the expected rate of consumption of most goods for the entire period until the rivers melt again, and have at least 80% in place. The only reason it's not 100%+ is that they expect to be able to use British/Canadian stores (for instance, the wing of the army that's occupying eastern Illinois is requisitioning food from the locals, so they don't need food supply from US Quartermasters. Similarly, the various border forts on the British side are well stocked and taking a few of them will help.

THings they CAN'T take from the British (caps for US guns, Maceroni rockets, e.g.) they have stockpiled to OVER 100% of expected supply.

Actually, the US military is making all the right moves, given what they know, and given the political imperatives of attempting a multi-front war (against the world's largest empire - although, to be fair, it's an empire that has to cross oceans to defend, which is tough).

OTOH, "given what they know" is an important phrase. The US never really participated in the Napoleonic mechanized meat grinder, so even their senior officers don't have a gut feel for what it entails, and this war is going to involve industrial warfare - not on the scale of OTL's ACW, but closer to that than OTL ever saw in this time period.

In particular, NEITHER side comprehends the level of ammunition consumption that will be involved.


Edit: given this is an extended winter campaign using horses, and that the US has stockpiled the supplies it needs, you don't want to even try to imagine the mountains of hay and cities of oat-granaries...
 
Dathi

Notes on allied reaction posts.

a) The note about the Spanish army arriving in June does tell us that Florida is still fighting then, which I strongly suspect is not what the US were planning. Going to be interesting how the regular Spanish forces interact with the local Indians and blacks who have probably provided a lot of the defence in the meantime.

b) Good point about British forces arriving at Boston and going overland. That greatly reduces the impact on Canada of the winter closing the St Lawrence. It also makes really arsine the US not doing anything they could to keep NE neutral. Still going to be very difficult getting forces/supplies to the front but a lot easier.

c) One big impact of the allied blockage will be in cutting down on coastal traffic, which will hurt the economies of the US and Mexico. Also once there's the threat of allied landings, let alone if a few raids can be mounted you will start hearing people complaining about every soldier that leaves their state undefended to go to the front.

d) I think you may be being a bit opportunistic about the willingness of the Spanish and Tejas forces to submit to a unified command. Could see political opposition in the former case. Also I could see the Tejans questioning the point as even if there are rapid and reliable communications between them and Wincester [which I rather doubt] whether someone at the latter location is the best positioned to direct the defence of their homeland. Especially if at any point say Tejan forces are asked/ordered to march east to fight Americans in Louisiana. I think its a good idea to try and that some of the rationalisation of forces - Spanish to Tejas, other troops more suited to the climate to Florida. However may be something that won't actually work. Also going to be a hell of a task skilfully co-ordinating all those multi-lingual forces.:eek:

e) I love the idea of the Bengal Lancers working with Hawallian troops in California. :D Given how unpopular the central government often was in outlying regions they might not even have much fighting to do. [Presuming Mexico is as poorly governed and centralised as OTL].

Steve
 
d) I think you may be being a bit opportunistic about the willingness of the Spanish and Tejas forces to submit to a unified command. Could see political opposition in the former case. Also I could see the Tejans questioning the point as even if there are rapid and reliable communications between them and Wincester [which I rather doubt] whether someone at the latter location is the best positioned to direct the defence of their homeland. Especially if at any point say Tejan forces are asked/ordered to march east to fight Americans in Louisiana. I think its a good idea to try and that some of the rationalisation of forces - Spanish to Tejas, other troops more suited to the climate to Florida. However may be something that won't actually work. Also going to be a hell of a task skilfully co-ordinating all those multi-lingual forces.:eek:

Spain is NOT under unified command. They are talking about putting a number of units under British command in exchange for equivalent British troops under Spanish control. No shared command, just swapped units. Continental Spanish troops just aren't going to do well in Florida swamps.

Tejas doesn't have a lot of choice, really. The US/Mexican force is as large as their entire population, their backs are to the wall.

Tactical command will not be organized from Winchester. Hmmm... Need to clarify that. The point is that unified command of all Allied forces in each theatre, with strategic direction from Winchester, without having to worry about checking with political figures.


As for multi-lingualism. Yes, it's a problem, but it's going to be manageable. Portuguese or Spanish regiments won't be broken up, and finding a small handful of bilingual speakers (Peninsular War vets, if nothing else, or wine merchants) won't be a problem. For that matter, there are thousands of Spanish speakers in Louisiana (outnumbered by French and English, but still common). The Canadian army has had to deal with this for its entire history (French, English, Native, other native...), so keeping multiple lines of communication available (so nothing hinges on a single translator who could get shot) is second nature to their planning. Louisiana has had to deal with some of the same, too.
 
a) The note about the Spanish army arriving in June does tell us that Florida is still fighting then, which I strongly suspect is not what the US were planning. Going to be interesting how the regular Spanish forces interact with the local Indians and blacks who have probably provided a lot of the defence in the meantime.
Ummm... WEST Florida is firmly in Spanish hands at that point - the US didn't try very hard against Pensacola, and only feinted at Mobile. Their basic plan is that West Florida will be untenable if they hold East Florida and Louisiana. BUT that means that e.g. Pensacola is available as a base for attacking back into East Florida. OTOH, the Spanish 10k troops arriving will garrison West Florida handily, but may not be enough to take East Florida back. Not sure what's happening there, yet. I HAD assumed the US was going to have a walkover there, but Spain may yet give them a fight for their money...

The other thing, of course, is as someone pointed out, Spain may keep some of those reinforcements to beef up defences at Puerto Rico and Cuba. OTOH, they might not, as US naval might is small - and shrinking fast against the combined navies of Britain, New England and Portugal.

b) Good point about British forces arriving at Boston and going overland. That greatly reduces the impact on Canada of the winter closing the St Lawrence. It also makes really arsine the US not doing anything they could to keep NE neutral. Still going to be very difficult getting forces/supplies to the front but a lot easier.
Well, they were allies, anyway, so no matter HOW nice the US treated New England, the latter would surely have eventually come in on Britain's side. However, the British use of an all year port to land armies IS a hole in the US 'attack in winter when British/Canadian troops can't move' plan.

c) One big impact of the allied blockage will be in cutting down on coastal traffic, which will hurt the economies of the US and Mexico. Also once there's the threat of allied landings, let alone if a few raids can be mounted you will start hearing people complaining about every soldier that leaves their state undefended to go to the front.
Oh ya. Indeed. Very much so. Basically by the end of the year, every US city on the Atlantic will have been shelled. There is a(n obvious) tech revolution coming that the US didn't foresee.


e) I love the idea of the Bengal Lancers working with Hawallian troops in California. :D Given how unpopular the central government often was in outlying regions they might not even have much fighting to do. [Presuming Mexico is as poorly governed and centralised as OTL].

Steve
Umm... There were only some 7-8k total whites in California (counting women and children). The US took it OTL with army units on the order of 60 and 160 men....

I knew the populations of Texas and California were small. I hadn't known until I started looking things up, just HOW small. I'd already sent 10k Americans to Mexico before I found out that was 1/4 the entire population of Tejas at the time!:)

A regiment and a half (about 1000 trained armed soldiers) will have NO trouble taking and holding California. And if the British control the seas, Mexico will have the most horribly tough time trying to take it back.

As a result of this war, Hindu, Moslem and Sikh communities (small at first) take hold in *Canada much earlier. This will test Canada's religious tolerance a lot, as Canada is really just getting a firm grip on letting any variety of Christian worship as they wish. Still, that tolerance has been successfully instilled (not that there aren't rabid anti-X pockets still for lots of values of X), and it's a basis for future advances.
 
Oh ya. Indeed. Very much so. Basically by the end of the year, every US city on the Atlantic will have been shelled. There is a(n obvious) tech revolution coming that the US didn't foresee.

Its a bit early fur turret ships, but Steam-powered Broadside vessels by any chance? And also, there is a PM coming in for you.
 
PPS Allied Response

7) [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The moment the US/Mexican forces cross the Tejas border, Duke Charles appeals to his brother, King Ludwig I of Bavaria, who organizes 2.5k troops to send to Tejas. They arrive in May. [/FONT]
 
Its a bit early fur turret ships, but Steam-powered Broadside vessels by any chance? And also, there is a PM coming in for you.

trekchu

Could be that or could be the early shells of the period. Made the old wooden walls pretty obsolete so what they would do against old fortifications or built-up areas. Especially since their more likely to start fires. Could see a lot of coastal areas suffering badly if the British wish. [Think about port areas for instance, with all those warehouses packed with goods:eek:].

This presumes that the US doesn't have extensive and well manned defensive fortifications along its coast. Given that even in TTL it has a long coast and such defences are expensive, in terms of money, equipment and trained artillerymen I suspect that apart from possibly a few key points the US won't have a lot. Since its putting so much into the ground war. [Also that the RN has solutions to the USN's Demologos ships but expect that to occur].

Actually, having searched back through the thread for details on those ships I see that Dathi has already mentioned the Paixhan guns so unless there's another breakthrough related it's unlikely to be that, unless talking more in their application for shore bombardment.

Might be that with armour, rifling, steam engines and general developments in metallurgy you can see the sort of floating batteries that Britain and France developed in the Crimean campaign occurring earlier. With steam power and screws they wouldn't need to rely on the wind, or vulnerable riggings and could get in close. Given the expected British lead in naval artillery it wouldn't matter too much then if the US did have modern fortifications.

I was thinking more of blockage and occasional raids to disrupt and cause concern/distraction. However if Britain is angry enough to go for widespread shore bombardment then things would get very bad for the US coastal settlements. One advantage of controlling the seas is its a lot easier moving large and heavy guns and their ammunition, armour etc.

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif] [/FONT]Steve


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Spain is NOT under unified command. They are talking about putting a number of units under British command in exchange for equivalent British troops under Spanish control. No shared command, just swapped units. Continental Spanish troops just aren't going to do well in Florida swamps.

Tejas doesn't have a lot of choice, really. The US/Mexican force is as large as their entire population, their backs are to the wall.

Tactical command will not be organized from Winchester. Hmmm... Need to clarify that. The point is that unified command of all Allied forces in each theatre, with strategic direction from Winchester, without having to worry about checking with political figures.

Ah, thanks for clarifying. That is a lot more likely than the way I mis-read it.


As for multi-lingualism. Yes, it's a problem, but it's going to be manageable. Portuguese or Spanish regiments won't be broken up, and finding a small handful of bilingual speakers (Peninsular War vets, if nothing else, or wine merchants) won't be a problem. For that matter, there are thousands of Spanish speakers in Louisiana (outnumbered by French and English, but still common). The Canadian army has had to deal with this for its entire history (French, English, Native, other native...), so keeping multiple lines of communication available (so nothing hinges on a single translator who could get shot) is second nature to their planning. Louisiana has had to deal with some of the same, too.

True. Possibly more a case of different cultures, customs and operating procedures. There would have been some standardiasation of doctrine and equipment in most European armies by this time but such a mixed force would have problems. Not to mention in some cases at least explaining to the worried and fearful locals 'no, those are good foreigners on our side'.

However the experience and need for working together will help build up the tolerance and understanding you mentioned in your other post. On that didn't realise how small the 'white' population of Mexico was. By White do you mean the Mexicans as opposed to local native tribes? That seems so small its amazing Mexico was able to keep any hold over the place.

Thanks

Steve
 
Allied Response

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]2 basically the Duke of Wellington's (?) old line “I don't say they can not come, I will say they can not come by sea”.[/FONT]

Dathi

Sorry, missed this earlier. I think this was actually Lord Barham, 1st Lord of the Admiralty during the 1805 invasion scare. Just checked Wiki. It doesn't mention it there but pretty certain he made that quote.

Steve
 
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