Canada Wank (YACW)

[Dan1988]

Yes, that's the modern pronunciation. But, because the people in charge are classicists, they'd be using the older pronunciation. (Not the modern reconstructed version, of course, but British schoolboy Greek, for which I THINK I've got the pronunciation correct)

Well, sometimes the British schoolboy pronunciation was wrong. Me, I prefer the modern "Dhimotiki" pronunciation because it's natural.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Dathi

Whoo! That's an interesting development. As you say, over time Britain will find other members coming to match it in power but at a period when Britain's already the most powerful and developed nation in the world its got even more influence and economic power. Although if they feel obliged to support other members in periods of crisis it could become a burden

As you say that will make free trade very difficult to achieve as there are a lot of closely interlaced markets that would be lost. Must admit its difficult to see that many other nations be willing to give up their own economic independence as the British merchant fleet is just about unmatched at this point and the loss of tariffs and prestige would be significant.

But they also to get 'inside' (half-way inside) the British trade system. And, they get to protect themselves from other competition that ISN'T in the League.

They'd have to compete with the British merchant marine in any case, this lets them do it on a more even footing. As for Britain, it ties friendly nations closer, and it opens more markets to British shipping and goods.

However could see it happening with New England, both to get access to British markets and gain closer links politically with Britain and hence security against the US. Then things snowballing from there.

My thought precisely. New England got some preference as being 'almost British' and the Portuguese used the precedent to open the doors for them, etc.

In terms of other members what's the status of Hanover? If that's tied into a British dominated world trading network that could make thing very interesting if/when German unification starts. Also I'm wondering about the Dutch empire. Got a lot of trading potential at the time, probably looks at Britain as a potential protector and at least in earlier times was a very efficient mercantile trader. [After all the Navigation Acts were imposed to prevent the Dutch dominating British trade.]. Won't be as overpowering now and likely to lose ground for a while at least as industrialisation develops but could find membership very attractive.

Steve

Hannover is independent. It is ruled by a different King, by now. IIRC George IV died in 1830, and William took over in Hannover while Charlotte was crowned in Britain. THen WIlliam dies and Ern(e)st Augustus takes over in Hannover and tries to turn back liberal reforms.

Hannover is NOT part of the initial League.

The Netherlands run their own competing global merchant shipping, and don't want to be under the British umbrella (at the moment). I was thinking there were other reasons there, but it's been over a month since I looked closely at that. Need to look again.

 

[Dan1988]

But they also to get 'inside' (half-way inside) the British trade system. And, they get to protect themselves from other competition that ISN'T in the League.

They'd have to compete with the British merchant marine in any case, this lets them do it on a more even footing. As for Britain, it ties friendly nations closer, and it opens more markets to British shipping and goods.

Still, though, an interesting development to say the least, and at least New England would be somewhat insulated from the pressures of its neighbours to the west.

My thought precisely. New England got some preference as being 'almost British' and the Portuguese used the precedent to open the doors for them, etc.

As you yourself already noted. I'm still waiting, however, to see if you decide to have New England merge into the rest of British North America or not.

Hannover is independent. It is ruled by a different King, by now. IIRC George IV died in 1830, and William took over in Hannover while Charlotte was crowned in Britain. THen WIlliam dies and Ern(e)st Augustus takes over in Hannover and tries to turn back liberal reforms.

Hannover is NOT part of the initial League.

The Netherlands run their own competing global merchant shipping, and don't want to be under the British umbrella (at the moment). I was thinking there were other reasons there, but it's been over a month since I looked closely at that. Need to look again.

Ah, so like OTL, then.

 

[Archangel]

Interesting idea, the Neo-Delian league. Economic Cooperation along with fighting slavery and promoting liberalism.
In Portugal, this means that besides Absolutists getting less international (and financial support), they could count on Britain's opposition to any move to take power.
Incidentally, it also means that some liberal politician/Generals of OTL will have choose either to be regular politicians or regular Army officers and avoid the coups and counter-coups that plagued Portugal in the first half of the XIX century.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Interesting idea, the Neo-Delian league. Economic Cooperation along with fighting slavery and promoting liberalism.
In Portugal, this means that besides Absolutists getting less international (and financial support), they could count on Britain's opposition to any move to take power.
Incidentally, it also means that some liberal politician/Generals of OTL will have choose either to be regular politicians or regular Army officers and avoid the coups and counter-coups that plagued Portugal in the first half of the XIX century.

Part of my thought is that 'liberal' governments are going to support merchants, so that aspect of the charter will have merchants support; another is that liberals in Britain who are leery of giving up power want to support liberal causes, and could be swayed by those arguments (sort of like the proposed inclusion of environmental and/or workers' rights clauses in future US trade agreements).

Moreover, supporting stability in your trading partners is going to increase their long-term value as trading partners - so that makes sense for Britain, too. It's obviously in the interest of liberal parties of e.g. Portugal to maintain 'stability' as they are the party in power when 'stability' comes into play...

Personally, I think it all feeds back on itself, and the Charter as a whole is easier to swallow for the signatories than the individual items taken separately. Of course, it's my brain child, so I'm biased.

 

[Lusitania]

I was wondering about the imgration in both the British North American colonies and America.

From what I have read most people from the British Isles would choose the empires colonies, if so is Canada the favorite or does the other also receive their fair share.

Now for the other Europeans are they going to choose America or BNA. Which one is more receptive to them.

Since they do not come from a country that attacked them, are they welcome?

How welcome is BNA to the Eastern Europeans?

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

I was wondering about the imgration in both the British North American colonies and America.

From what I have read most people from the British Isles would choose the empires colonies, if so is Canada the favorite or does the other also receive their fair share.

Now for the other Europeans are they going to choose America or BNA. Which one is more receptive to them.

Since they do not come from a country that attacked them, are they welcome?

How welcome is BNA to the Eastern Europeans?

So far, most of the immigration is still coming from Britain, including Ireland. OTL most of the immigration went to the US (including many who came to Canada first). With the US largely closed, more end up in Canada, some stay home, and others end up in South Africa, Australia and e.g. Cono Sur of South America (Argentina,southern Brazil, Chile). Canada can't absorb EVERYBODY that OTL went to the US, and the other places are rather further from Europe (hence more expensive to get to), so total immigration numbers are down some.

Canada is going to take just about anyone, but is not going to be advertising in Eastern Europe yet. The first Eastern Europeans are likely to be Poles (unhappy with the state of their homeland, and backed by RC authorities who want to keep RC dominance in Canada), and people like Menonites from Russia, if and when things get bad for them. Mennonites (from Pennsylvania) had settled in Ontario by ~1800 (OTL and ATL), and would be a source of attraction for co-religionists in trouble.

Canada is at the moment (1830's, 1840's) one place in the world where religion freedom is more than a slogan - the US (aside, perhaps from Pennsylvania), has been backtracking on that freedom, and making RCs, in particular, very unwelcome. That will change eventually, but by then the US will have filled up its easy land. (The US will have more splinter religious groups than most places, much like OTL, but they will be some form of Protestant Christianity, and they speak English.)

Orthodox from Russia/Ukraine etc. will be reasonably welcome in Canada, but won't be solicited for a while. In the US, they'll be 'too foreign' for a while yet.

Does this answer your question?

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Portugal and Brazil

Portugal/Brazil



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]As OTL, the royal family flees to Brazil during the Napoleonic wars. When the wars are over, they delay somewhat in coming back, and a liberal uprising expels the British and creates a new Constitution (that of 1820). John VI (João VI) quickly returns with his first son and heir Francisco (born 1797), and accepts the new constitution. He left his second son Pedro (born 1800) behind in Brazil to rule as regent/viceroy there.[1][/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The reactionary forces opposed to the new constitution unite around the youngest prince Miguel, who advised by his older sister Maria Teresa (the only one of the children born pre-POD), and they rise in revolt against their father. João wins the fight and brother and sister are exiled to Austria. [2][/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Meanwhile, Pedro declares himself Emperor of Brazil in 1822. There is some considerable strife as to what Brazil's constitution should look like, but it ends up somewhat more liberal than OTL's. It still gives significant power to the Emperor, partly to balance the competing Brazilian and Portuguese parties in the country. Because there is no hope of re-uniting the crowns, friction between Pedro and Brazil on the one hand, and João, Francisco and Portugal on the other causes relations to be rather rockier than OTL and for the bad-feeling to last somewhat longer. However, the Portuguese branch does come to realize eventually that there's really nothing that they can do about it, and Pedro is family, so relations do heal and then warm up.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]When João dies in 1828 [about 2 years later than OTL], Francisco ascends the throne and negotiates a new constitution, with a few changes to appeal to the conservatives. Note that because Francisco came back with his father, and has been effectively co-ruler for the last few years, the transition is fairly smooth. While Miguel still returns (from Austrian exile) and tries to raise the flag of conservative revolt, Francisco is in a much stronger position, and Miguel and Maria Theresa are forced to flee back to Vienna. The revolt is known [as OTL] as the War of the Two Brothers, but here it is rather shorter, and the liberals are never displaced.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Several years later, when Don Carlos takes over as Regent in Spain (1833), he invites Miguel and Maria Theresa to a closer, friendlier exile in Spain, and gives support for Miguel's legitimacy as king. This, of course, adds to tensions between Portugal and Spain. And, secondarily between Britain (Francisco's ally) and Spain as well.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]However, Francisco is by then able to keep conservative discontent below the level of actual rebellion, having won so effectively the previous civil war.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Moreover, ties between Britain and Portugal, always warm, increase. Britain supported Francisco in his war with Miguel, and is glad to have a liberal, friendly régime on the continent. Maintaining this friendship and wanting to support liberal and friendly rule in Portugal, Britain negotiates favourable trade treaties with Portugal, similar to the ones already signed with New England. This eventually leads to the formation of the Neo-Delian League, already discussed.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Francisco has a son João in 1818, and a daughter Maria Antonia (called Antonia) in 1820. Due to the increased ties between Portugal and Britain, William, the Prince of Wales and Antonia are betrothed. They spend much time in each other's company as teenagers and actually fall in love, which is more than one can say for most royal marriages. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The wedding is intended to be in 1841 when he is 22 and she 21, but, as a result of long conversations with his fiancée, William converts to Catholicism. This creates a significant political crisis in Britain, as, of course, no Roman Catholic can inherit the throne – the PLAN was for Antonia to convert to Anglicanism. It also unhinges the carefully laid plans about which colonies would receive which royals as king/prince/duke/etc., and causes some of those negotiations to start again, delaying implementation long enough that the whole process is put on hold indefinitely because of the rising crisis with the United States (more on that later).[3][/FONT]


--
1 Most of this is as OTL, except for João's children. ITTL, the second child who dies early is a daughter, and the third child is a surviving son, Francisco Antonio Pio (called Francisco iTTL, where his OTL namesake was called Antonio Pio). João also brings his OLDEST son with him, leaving the second son as viceroy in Brazil.


2 as OTL. The same forces that led OTL's Miguel to be conservative and autocratic make iTTL's namesake the same.


3 This will lead to a King Leopold I of Britain eventually. Remember that the second son (now heir), is named “ [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Leopold Francis John”, and Francis and John are basically right out as regnal names. Sure, he COULD be another George or something, but the expectation would be that he'd choose one of his baptismal names. Note that his older brother, the one who should have been king, is LOADED with proper possible British regnal names...[/FONT]

 

[Lusitania]

Portugal/Brazil



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]As OTL, the royal family flees to Brazil during the Napoleonic wars. When the wars are over, they delay somewhat in coming back, and a liberal uprising expels the British and creates a new Constitution (that of 1820). John VI (João VI) quickly returns with his first son and heir Francisco (born 1797), and accepts the new constitution. He left his second son Pedro (born 1800) behind in Brazil to rule as regent/viceroy there.[1][/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The reactionary forces opposed to the new constitution unite around the youngest prince Miguel, who advised by his older sister Maria Teresa (the only one of the children born pre-POD), and they rise in revolt against their father. João wins the fight and brother and sister are exiled to Austria. [2][/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Meanwhile, Pedro declares himself Emperor of Brazil in 1822. There is some considerable strife as to what Brazil's constitution should look like, but it ends up somewhat more liberal than OTL's. It still gives significant power to the Emperor, partly to balance the competing Brazilian and Portuguese parties in the country. Because there is no hope of re-uniting the crowns, friction between Pedro and Brazil on the one hand, and João, Francisco and Portugal on the other causes relations to be rather rockier than OTL and for the bad-feeling to last somewhat longer. However, the Portuguese branch does come to realize eventually that there's really nothing that they can do about it, and Pedro is family, so relations do heal and then warm up.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]When João dies in 1828 [about 2 years later than OTL], Francisco ascends the throne and negotiates a new constitution, with a few changes to appeal to the conservatives. Note that because Francisco came back with his father, and has been effectively co-ruler for the last few years, the transition is fairly smooth. While Miguel still returns (from Austrian exile) and tries to raise the flag of conservative revolt, Francisco is in a much stronger position, and Miguel and Maria Theresa are forced to flee back to Vienna. The revolt is known [as OTL] as the War of the Two Brothers, but here it is rather shorter, and the liberals are never displaced.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Several years later, when Don Carlos takes over as Regent in Spain (1833), he invites Miguel and Maria Theresa to a closer, friendlier exile in Spain, and gives support for Miguel's legitimacy as king. This, of course, adds to tensions between Portugal and Spain. And, secondarily between Britain (Francisco's ally) and Spain as well.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]However, Francisco is by then able to keep conservative discontent below the level of actual rebellion, having won so effectively the previous civil war.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Moreover, ties between Britain and Portugal, always warm, increase. Britain supported Francisco in his war with Miguel, and is glad to have a liberal, friendly régime on the continent. Maintaining this friendship and wanting to support liberal and friendly rule in Portugal, Britain negotiates favourable trade treaties with Portugal, similar to the ones already signed with New England. This eventually leads to the formation of the Neo-Delian League, already discussed.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Francisco has a son João in 1818, and a daughter Maria Antonia (called Antonia) in 1820. Due to the increased ties between Portugal and Britain, William, the Prince of Wales and Antonia are betrothed. They spend much time in each other's company as teenagers and actually fall in love, which is more than one can say for most royal marriages. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The wedding is intended to be in 1841 when he is 22 and she 21, but, as a result of long conversations with his fiancée, William converts to Catholicism. This creates a significant political crisis in Britain, as, of course, no Roman Catholic can inherit the throne – the PLAN was for Antonia to convert to Anglicanism. It also unhinges the carefully laid plans about which colonies would receive which royals as king/prince/duke/etc., and causes some of those negotiations to start again, delaying implementation long enough that the whole process is put on hold indefinitely because of the rising crisis with the United States (more on that later).[3][/FONT]


--
1 Most of this is as OTL, except for João's children. ITTL, the second child who dies early is a daughter, and the third child is a surviving son, Francisco Antonio Pio (called Francisco iTTL, where his OTL namesake was called Antonio Pio). João also brings his OLDEST son with him, leaving the second son as viceroy in Brazil.


2 as OTL. The same forces that led OTL's Miguel to be conservative and autocratic make iTTL's namesake the same.


3 This will lead to a King Leopold I of Britain eventually. Remember that the second son (now heir), is named “ [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Leopold Francis John”, and Francis and John are basically right out as regnal names. Sure, he COULD be another George or something, but the expectation would be that he'd choose one of his baptismal names. Note that his older brother, the one who should have been king, is LOADED with proper possible British regnal names...[/FONT]

could we see William I of Canada I wonder? Since Catholics make up such a large percentage of British North American population, I wonder.

If this was your intention, nice.

As for the answers to my questions in the previous post yes they did answer them.

One more thing did Catholic Emancipation happen in UK as OTL.

 

[Brasidas]

I understand that you aren't going to regurgitate history, but I find myself wondering about the analogue of Sicily (and perhaps the Sicilian Expedition) to this time's Athens and Sparta.

 

[Alratan]

I think it is treasonous to convert the heir to the throne, and any children of a non CoE union are considered illegitimate, and so disbarred from any form of succession.

On checking, the Treason Act of 1702 makes it treason to "endeavour to deprive or hinder any person who shall be the next in succession to the crown ... from succeeding after the decease of her Majesty (whom God long preserve) to the imperial crown of this realm and the dominions and territories thereunto belonging".

Note that this is a mandatory death penalty offence.

Seeing as the Act of Settlement prohibits anyone who has ever been married to a Roman Catholic or has been one from ascending to the throne, then the act of converting or attempting to convert him certainly qualifies. I'd expect that such a thing would be nipped in the bud early - certainly exile would be the only thing that could come of it, and Catholic Emancipation would probably be set back by a generation. I'd imagine that any Chaplin who dared such a thing would suffer an unpleasant fate. The Papacy does not want to offend the British in this era.

The Royal Marriages Act 1772 declares marriages to Roman Catholic invalid for members of the Royal family.

 

[stevep]

So far, most of the immigration is still coming from Britain, including Ireland. OTL most of the immigration went to the US (including many who came to Canada first). With the US largely closed, more end up in Canada, some stay home, and others end up in South Africa, Australia and e.g. Cono Sur of South America (Argentina,southern Brazil, Chile). Canada can't absorb EVERYBODY that OTL went to the US, and the other places are rather further from Europe (hence more expensive to get to), so total immigration numbers are down some.

Canada is going to take just about anyone, but is not going to be advertising in Eastern Europe yet. The first Eastern Europeans are likely to be Poles (unhappy with the state of their homeland, and backed by RC authorities who want to keep RC dominance in Canada), and people like Menonites from Russia, if and when things get bad for them. Mennonites (from Pennsylvania) had settled in Ontario by ~1800 (OTL and ATL), and would be a source of attraction for co-religionists in trouble.

Canada is at the moment (1830's, 1840's) one place in the world where religion freedom is more than a slogan - the US (aside, perhaps from Pennsylvania), has been backtracking on that freedom, and making RCs, in particular, very unwelcome. That will change eventually, but by then the US will have filled up its easy land. (The US will have more splinter religious groups than most places, much like OTL, but they will be some form of Protestant Christianity, and they speak English.)

Orthodox from Russia/Ukraine etc. will be reasonably welcome in Canada, but won't be solicited for a while. In the US, they'll be 'too foreign' for a while yet.

Does this answer your question?

Dathi

When you say Canada are you including Louisiana? How is that comparing in terms of settlement with the northern territories?

Given the greater Catholic presence in Canada and more relaxed attitude, plus greater hostility in the US I think I can guess where most of the Irish disporia that doesn't go to Britain will be going, which could also have a significant effect on population and religion there. [Presuming the famine can't really be avoided].

One other population source from eastern Europe you didn't mention and it might be one of the 1st could be Jews fleeing pogroms in the Russian empire.

OTL the move against slavery did become decisive in Britain by the 1830's. If so how with that fit in with some of the Delian allies, thinking chiefly here of Brazil which was the last large stronghold of slavery in the west? Alternatively the influence of league members might moderate that, although since the League also includes New England that would probably be unlikely. [Also, given its economic importance there I'm wondering whether slavery is going to be a factor in the new tension with the US?]

Looking interesting.

Steve

 

[stevep]

Dathi and all

Thinking over the bombshell of the conversion of William. Going to be significant, especially since a son who was expected to rule will not now and one who was not playing on it will be thrust into the limelight.

It might actually help ease relations between the communities inside Britain, as, especially if William was popular, it would seem pointless and cruel to exile him in such a way. Especially when Britain has strong Catholic communities in Canada and Ireland and friendships with Catholic states such as Brazil, Portugal and Chile. Alternatively you might find some in the league raising questions about the treatment of Catholics in Britain. [On the other hand it could cause a deepening of hostility between Protestants and Catholics, especially if followed by say famine in Ireland and some problem in Canada].

Interesting idea from Lusitania about a William I of Canada. Would give him a role and establish blood links that could be useful with the growing dominion. [Although again would that mean elevating Canada to a kingdom]. Either way its going to upset the US. [Just a thought as I can't remember. The US hasn't tried anything like the Monroe Doctrine in TTL has it. Would seem rather farcical if it had but you never know].

Steve

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

could we see William I of Canada I wonder? Since Catholics make up such a large percentage of British North American population, I wonder.

If this was your intention, nice.

As for the answers to my questions in the previous post yes they did answer them.

One more thing did Catholic Emancipation happen in UK as OTL.

Actually, I was going to kill him off originally (in battle or something), to get Leopold to the throne, but then it occurred to me that this was a better solution.

I've been dithering a little about whether he's going to become King of Canada, as the British would REALLY like to maintain the status of Anglicanism there. My first thought was that he'd be the king of Ireland (the delay in granting Canada Kingdom status has given the proponents of the same status for Ireland time to catch up). But nothing is set in stone yet. I've even thought of letting him be king of both...

Catholic Emancipation has presumably happened on schedule. If anything, the greater importance of Canada has made Catholicism slightly less objectionable, although it has raised the profile of the question. There are certainly people in England, Scotland and northern Ireland who are even more adamant about keeping their part of the Empire 'pure' (i.e. the 'right' kind of protestant).

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

I think it is treasonous to convert the heir to the throne, and any children of a non CoE union are considered illegitimate, and so disbarred from any form of succession.

On checking, the Treason Act of 1702 makes it treason to "endeavour to deprive or hinder any person who shall be the next in succession to the crown ... from succeeding after the decease of her Majesty (whom God long preserve) to the imperial crown of this realm and the dominions and territories thereunto belonging".

Note that this is a mandatory death penalty offence.

Seeing as the Act of Settlement prohibits anyone who has ever been married to a Roman Catholic or has been one from ascending to the throne, then the act of converting or attempting to convert him certainly qualifies. I'd expect that such a thing would be nipped in the bud early - certainly exile would be the only thing that could come of it, and Catholic Emancipation would probably be set back by a generation. I'd imagine that any Chaplin who dared such a thing would suffer an unpleasant fate. The Papacy does not want to offend the British in this era.

The Royal Marriages Act 1772 declares marriages to Roman Catholic invalid for members of the Royal family.

Ouch. Didn't see that one.

Actually, my reading of the various acts (well, not the acts themselves, but discussions of them), says that conversion to Catholicism or marrying a Catholic is perfectly legal for (at least minor) royals IF THEY HAVE PERMISSION. Since William is marrying the girl he was betrothed to for some time, this is less of a problem than if he'd fallen madly in love with an Irish maid or something. Which isn't to say it isn't a problem!

The treason question is ... interesting. Antonia is certainly not trying to prevent William from being King, she's trying to bring him to 'The True Faith'. Or more to the point, William, after discussing theology with her decides that Catholicism is that.

He is well aware that this prohibits him from becoming King of Great Britain, but isn't thinking about 'treason'.

Moreover, this is NOT going to be treason. This is a State Marriage, arranged well ahead of time. To try to convict the Portuguese King's eldest daughter of treason would be... unwise. Moreover, William and Antonia are fairly popular - the state betrothal that became a love match is romantic and popular. So ways around it WILL be found. Yes, this is going to be a major constitutional crisis, I can see now, but the end result is that the relevant Act will be amended hurriedly, if necessary, to prevent a major diplomatic faux pas.

William will hold off on his formal conversion, and probably on his marriage, until the requisite changes to the laws can be made.

Thank you, by the way for finding these constitutional problems for me. I will amend or add or retcon my post once we figure out HOW it needs to be fixed.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Dathi and all

Thinking over the bombshell of the conversion of William. Going to be significant, especially since a son who was expected to rule will not now and one who was not playing on it will be thrust into the limelight.

It might actually help ease relations between the communities inside Britain, as, especially if William was popular, it would seem pointless and cruel to exile him in such a way. Especially when Britain has strong Catholic communities in Canada and Ireland and friendships with Catholic states such as Brazil, Portugal and Chile. Alternatively you might find some in the league raising questions about the treatment of Catholics in Britain. [On the other hand it could cause a deepening of hostility between Protestants and Catholics, especially if followed by say famine in Ireland and some problem in Canada].

Interesting idea from Lusitania about a William I of Canada. Would give him a role and establish blood links that could be useful with the growing dominion. [Although again would that mean elevating Canada to a kingdom]. Either way its going to upset the US. [Just a thought as I can't remember. The US hasn't tried anything like the Monroe Doctrine in TTL has it. Would seem rather farcical if it had but you never know].

Steve

I believe that at least some of the Catholic countries of the League have rules in place that place Catholicism in at least as high a position as Anglicanism is in England, so they can't complain TOO much. Although the upshot of some of this may well be a (somewhat) increased religious tolerance.

Canada IS going to be a Kingdom. Who the monarch is, and just when it happens is open to question. It was slated for about '41 IIRC, but then then the William question came along, and then the crisis with the US which we have only seen the first glimpses of.

Yes, it annoys the HECK out of the US. So what

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

When you say Canada are you including Louisiana? How is that comparing in terms of settlement with the northern territories?

Canada - Quebec, Ontario, Michigan, Indian Protectorate, territories (and provinces as they arrive). Doesn't currently apply to Nova Scotia, e.g. Not quite sure what the status of Louisiana is. Probably very like Canada's, actually, but I haven't made any firm decisions there.

Given the greater Catholic presence in Canada and more relaxed attitude, plus greater hostility in the US I think I can guess where most of the Irish disporia that doesn't go to Britain will be going, which could also have a significant effect on population and religion there. [Presuming the famine can't really be avoided].

Oh yes, oh very yes.

One other population source from eastern Europe you didn't mention and it might be one of the 1st could be Jews fleeing pogroms in the Russian empire.

Good point. Let me think about that. I SUSPECT that it's going to be gradual, why would they believe the rumours. Besides, the 'non-christian' toleration hasn't really been tested yet, much.

OTL the move against slavery did become decisive in Britain by the 1830's. If so how with that fit in with some of the Delian allies, thinking chiefly here of Brazil which was the last large stronghold of slavery in the west? Alternatively the influence of league members might moderate that, although since the League also includes New England that would probably be unlikely.

Slave TRADE is what the League rules outlaw. It will soon be the case that you can't join the League without at least a scheme for abolishing slavery, but that's not the case yet - and the existing members will be largely grandfathered. Getting rid of slavery immediately in Portugal's African possessions or in Brazil just isn't going to happen. OTOH, as Abolitionism gets stronger in Britain and New England, the bar for entry WILL get higher.

[Also, given its economic importance there I'm wondering whether slavery is going to be a factor in the new tension with the US?]

Yes.

 

[stevep]

To try to convict the Portuguese King's eldest daughter of treason would be... unwise.

Dathi

Nice touch of understatement. [I'm sorry, Antonia can't marry William as we're busy beheading her for treason.]

Steve

 

[stevep]

I believe that at least some of the Catholic countries of the League have rules in place that place Catholicism in at least as high a position as Anglicanism is in England, so they can't complain TOO much. Although the upshot of some of this may well be a (somewhat) increased religious tolerance.

Good point. Might be that the marriage was initially intended partly to improve relations and remove distrust. In which case that could backfire with the hard line Protestant sects complaining something like 'that catholic b***h has corrupted our heir!'. However as you say they were both popular and a lot of people will have a soft spot for a love match.

Canada IS going to be a Kingdom. Who the monarch is, and just when it happens is open to question. It was slated for about '41 IIRC, but then then the William question came along, and then the crisis with the US which we have only seen the first glimpses of.

Interesting reply. Could easily start a chain reaction. The [not]Grand Duke of Texas having even more problems with some of his subjects.

Yes, it annoys the HECK out of the US. So what

Did I say I was bothered?

Steve

 

[stevep]

Good point. Let me think about that. I SUSPECT that it's going to be gradual, why would they believe the rumours. Besides, the 'non-christian' toleration hasn't really been tested yet, much.

Probably wouldn't be for some time as the main persecution, or at least people fleeing from it wasn't until towards the end of the century. However Britain with its cosmopolitan viewpoint plus probably rivarly with Russia would be an attractive option, especially with its industries providing employment and colonies offering prospects for settlement. If we're still looking for more settlers to counter a US demographic superiority and the latter state is more exclusive then idea.

Also considering that OTL Dizzy became a very popular PM and in TTL we're still probably the main centre of operations [because of wealth and trading opportunities that are steadily growing] of the Rothechild's I think there would be some basis for encouraging such immigration.

Steve