Such as the Norwegians?
Well, yes, them to.
The full list being;
-Estonians
-Norwegians
-Finns
-Sami
-Greenlandic Inuit
-Icelanders
-Nordic Germans
-Nordic Russians
Map Thread VI
- Thread starter Ian the Admin
- Start date
- Status
Well, yes, them to.
The full list being;
-Estonians
-Norwegians
-Finns
-Sami
-Greenlandic Inuit
-Icelanders
-Nordic Germans
-Nordic Russians
Sorry - Meant Victoria. What is *Slovenia? Looking at the map I assumed that was Slavonia and for some reason misread (and subsequently mistyped) Baltic Republic as Balkan Republic.
UPDATE: Oh blow, just realised it's Austria. I probably need to get some sleep.
Now time for my order:
Well actually, it kind of does. Korea actually has about 50 to 100 times the population of Manchuria, so if it managed to segregate Koreans from the Chinese, and encouraged the Chinese to migrate to South China, then it could be very possible.
China managed to hold Southeast Asia as tributary states; I do agree that they should not be colonies, though, so I'll change that when I have time.
But you're completely ignoring the fact that there are a couple of passes in Pakistan. Although I do agree that the Indians were pretty good at turning back invaders, I'm also pretty sure that if the Chinese, Macedonians, Goguryeo, Mughals, France, and England solely and firmly put their mind to conquering India, within 30-50 years, then it would have been easily done.
Well, you're not going to get it.
If you read my timeline, they're either allied to (Byzantine) or a colony of (Sassanid) Goguryeo only for 170 years. In other words, if there is an alliance, the two countries have equal representation and power. Central Asia is no big deal if you consider that Goguryeo had trained in North China and Manchuria for 350 years. Also, the Tang faced Goguryeo and the Abbasids, although they were significantly underprepared in the latter, considering that it was led by a Goguryeo general.
East Africa was pretty easily to overrun because there were very minor kingdoms in the area, Australia was desert, but easily to manage considering that Goguryeo had 350-400 years of training, North America is mostly tundra and desert, but once again, easily to conquer after 350-400 years of preparation, and the same with Siberia, which is mostly tundra.
If you even took a look at my timeline at all, then you probably wouldn't be saying this.
The Koreans are one of the most underused, underestimated, and underrepresented group in history, only behind Africans and Native Americans. Just putting it out there.
Well actually, it kind of does. Korea actually has about 50 to 100 times the population of Manchuria, so if it managed to segregate Koreans from the Chinese, and encouraged the Chinese to migrate to South China, then it could be very possible.
China managed to hold Southeast Asia as tributary states; I do agree that they should not be colonies, though, so I'll change that when I have time.
But you're completely ignoring the fact that there are a couple of passes in Pakistan. Although I do agree that the Indians were pretty good at turning back invaders, I'm also pretty sure that if the Chinese, Macedonians, Goguryeo, Mughals, France, and England solely and firmly put their mind to conquering India, within 30-50 years, then it would have been easily done.
Well, you're not going to get it.
If you read my timeline, they're either allied to (Byzantine) or a colony of (Sassanid) Goguryeo only for 170 years. In other words, if there is an alliance, the two countries have equal representation and power. Central Asia is no big deal if you consider that Goguryeo had trained in North China and Manchuria for 350 years. Also, the Tang faced Goguryeo and the Abbasids, although they were significantly underprepared in the latter, considering that it was led by a Goguryeo general.
East Africa was pretty easily to overrun because there were very minor kingdoms in the area, Australia was desert, but easily to manage considering that Goguryeo had 350-400 years of training, North America is mostly tundra and desert, but once again, easily to conquer after 350-400 years of preparation, and the same with Siberia, which is mostly tundra.
If you even took a look at my timeline at all, then you probably wouldn't be saying this.
The Koreans are one of the most underused, underestimated, and underrepresented group in history, only behind Africans and Native Americans. Just putting it out there.
Nikephoros
Banned
Then how about you do them a service by giving them a PLAUSIBLE scenario, not a 30 second BS Korea-wank.
But it is a plausible scenario if you read my rebuttals and timeline.
And I am deeply insulted. The whole map took me four hours in three days to complete.
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Tallest Skil
Banned
Save for the arbitrary borders, the "solely and firmly" bit, and your lack of rebuttal on human psychological trends.
I mean no further insults, but did you color by individual pixel? I see no other viable means by which that map could have taken a full day to create.
Sorry - Meant Victoria. What is *Slovenia? Looking at the map I assumed that was Slavonia and for some reason misread (and subsequently mistyped) Baltic Republic as Balkan Republic.
UPDATE: Oh blow, just realised it's Austria. I probably need to get some sleep.
No worries, and I figured you misread it, I accidentaly confuse Balkan and Baltic myself occasionally.
Krall
Banned
I can't find any historical figures on the population of Korea and Manchuria, but I know that Manchuria has something like twice the population of Korea at present.
Also, a lot of your arguments seem to rest on the fact that Goguryeo "trained" for 350 years, which seems rather vague and doesn't seem to make much sense. The Chinese Empire had hundreds of years of "training" and yet never expanded much beyond East Asia. The only empire comparable to yours is the Mongolian Empire, which was rather heavily decentralised and never managed to conquer Europe nor any overseas territories.
The thing you seem to be missing is the limits and constraints of technology. The speed and reliability of communication is a huge limiting factor on any ancient empire.
You also seem to be equating "possible" with "plausible". I admit that, with the right leaders and the right luck, Goguryeo could forge a powerful empire, but it's highly improbable that this could happen, in my opinion.
Now that that's over, anyone for tea and biccies?
And I suppose Kia is a mulitnational corporation with extralegal powers. The Chinese would have assimilated any Korean invaders.
Well, explain exactly how I'm lacking in those areas.
I know you mean no further insults. I edited my post, but I apologize. I meant four hours. I was thinking 240 minutes, and I mistyped.
I can't find any historical figures on the population of Korea and Manchuria, but I know that Manchuria has something like twice the population of Korea at present.
Also, a lot of your arguments seem to rest on the fact that Goguryeo "trained" for 350 years, which seems rather vague and doesn't seem to make much sense. The Chinese Empire had hundreds of years of "training" and yet never expanded much beyond East Asia. The only empire comparable to yours is the Mongolian Empire, which was rather heavily decentralised and never managed to conquer Europe nor any overseas territories.
The thing you seem to be missing is the limits and constraints of technology. The speed and reliability of communication is a huge limiting factor on any ancient empire.
You also seem to be equating "possible" with "plausible". I admit that, with the right leaders and the right luck, Goguryeo could forge a powerful empire, but it's highly improbable that this could happen, in my opinion.
Now that that's over, anyone for tea and biccies?
But that's including the Chinese population. I meant the Manchus vs. the Koreans.
Even though the Chinese probably had the capacity to conquer beyond East Asia, they never really made a realistic attempt because of ethnocentrism, and were limited by the Xiongnu and the Mongols.
I know that there are limits and constraints of technology, but keep in mind that Goguryeo allied with two empires, and that it was a gunpowder empire, which meant that it had an advantage over most countries. The empire only lasted 170 years at its height.
I absolutely realize that this map is highly improbable, but I'm just depicting a scenario that is possible if Goguryeo devoted all of their resources to aggressively dominating other tribes/kingdoms/empires.
Not really. Compare with apartheid in South Africa.
Alright, I've finished the next map.
I did'nt want to clutter the map with a key for this;
Red - Socialist/Communist
Brown - Nationalist/Fascist
Green (Ireland) - Irish Free State
Light Grey - Non-ideological/national revolts.
It's now 1926 and Europe is in the beginnings of chaos.
Britain is in the middle of the Irish War for Independence, resulting in its focus being on Ireland.
A ship carrying what amounted to political prisoners, primarily Irish POW's and non-Irish sympathizers lost control and beached on the Isle of Man,
as a result the island soon came under control of the group, who, along with local support have Proclaimed the Manx Republic.
In Dublin a major strike following the beginnings of the war lead to the city and surrounding area being taken over by Socialists and Trade Unionists
who've proclaimed the Dublin Commune, a neutral, though somewhat anti-British side in the war.
France is in the beginnings of a Civil War as major industrial areas and places with large working class populations have turned against the illegitimate
government after it became public that the government would seek a return to Monarchy.
Meanwhile in French Savoy the nationalist 'Mouvement Savouè' has taken over.
The revolts in French West Africa have been put down, however they're not likely to disappear.
In Germany the Socialists have strengthened their majority (65%) and are moving to abolish the Monarchy, among other reforms. While this has
been met with majority support from the public their are several Right-Wing reactionary groups who are very much opposed.
The area along the German-Austrian border is currently seeing fighting between the German military and the fascistic 'Österallianz'.
Nationalist revolts have also started spilling over from the Baltic Republic.
Poland has managed to stave the worst off for the moment, primarily as a result of a large chunk of the German military being stationed in the country,
however Soviet revolts have broken out along the Polish-Russian border while nationalist revolts have broken out on the Polish-Ukrainian border.
In Italy, Sicily is now controlled by a mixture of the Italian government, the Socialistic 'Lega Cittadini' and the Fascistic 'Famiglia della Sicilia'.
Meanwhile in Italian Savoy the 'Movimento di Savouè' has taken over.
More concerning for Italy is the growing 'Alleanza per una Nuova Roma' in central Italy.
Meanwhile in Pola a 'Revolutionary Government' has taken control after being voted to power, though it's not shown hostility thus far.
The Ottomans are facing increasing internal problems.
Libya, with the exception of an area around Tripoli, is now controlled by France and Britain.
In Southern Epirus and and Thessaloníki Nationalist revolts backed by Greece have taken over.
Meanwhile, after a failed Nationalist uprising most of Crete has fallen under the control of local Socialists who've since proclaimed the
Independence of the 'Socialist Republic of Crete'.
The political tensions in Russia have cooled somewhat as a result of external issues.
The Russian Invasion of Persia, following highly dubious claims of 'violations of Russian Sovereignty', has been condemned by much of the world,
however most are to busy to do anything.
The outflux of troops to Persia has allowed massive revolts in Russian Armenia to be successful, leading to almost the entire area falling out
of Russian control.
Spain has managed to hold things together, however small-scale Socialist revolts have spilled over the Franco-Spanish border and tensions are
boiling beneath the surface between the Conservative Monarchists and Liberal & Socialist Republicans.
The Balearic islands are mostly under the control of a Republican Movement following elections, however they've not moved to do anything.
Belgium is experiencing massive revolts between the primarily Franco-Walloon 'Mouvement Socialiste' in the South and the non-ethnic 'Rexists'
in the North.
The Baltic Republic, under a Liberal-Socialist coalition is struggling with the beginnings of Soviet revolts on the Balto-Russian border and the
'Lyga Lietuva ir Lenkija' in the South.
The UKSD, now the United Nordic Empire/Kingdom*, has managed through its egalitarian and liberal laws and reforms to avoid the ethnic and
ideological problems of the rest of Europe.
The threat of the Sino-Japanese Alliance has essentially vanished following the signing of the 'Treaty of Sapporo'.
Meanwhile America has been making overtures towards the Nords of the possibility of closer relations, something the UNE's government is
thankful for given the recent rhetoric by America about enforcing the Monroe Doctrine.
*It's officially the United Nordic Kingdom in English and the United Nordic Empire in Nordic.
I did'nt want to clutter the map with a key for this;
Red - Socialist/Communist
Brown - Nationalist/Fascist
Green (Ireland) - Irish Free State
Light Grey - Non-ideological/national revolts.
It's now 1926 and Europe is in the beginnings of chaos.
Britain is in the middle of the Irish War for Independence, resulting in its focus being on Ireland.
A ship carrying what amounted to political prisoners, primarily Irish POW's and non-Irish sympathizers lost control and beached on the Isle of Man,
as a result the island soon came under control of the group, who, along with local support have Proclaimed the Manx Republic.
In Dublin a major strike following the beginnings of the war lead to the city and surrounding area being taken over by Socialists and Trade Unionists
who've proclaimed the Dublin Commune, a neutral, though somewhat anti-British side in the war.
France is in the beginnings of a Civil War as major industrial areas and places with large working class populations have turned against the illegitimate
government after it became public that the government would seek a return to Monarchy.
Meanwhile in French Savoy the nationalist 'Mouvement Savouè' has taken over.
The revolts in French West Africa have been put down, however they're not likely to disappear.
In Germany the Socialists have strengthened their majority (65%) and are moving to abolish the Monarchy, among other reforms. While this has
been met with majority support from the public their are several Right-Wing reactionary groups who are very much opposed.
The area along the German-Austrian border is currently seeing fighting between the German military and the fascistic 'Österallianz'.
Nationalist revolts have also started spilling over from the Baltic Republic.
Poland has managed to stave the worst off for the moment, primarily as a result of a large chunk of the German military being stationed in the country,
however Soviet revolts have broken out along the Polish-Russian border while nationalist revolts have broken out on the Polish-Ukrainian border.
In Italy, Sicily is now controlled by a mixture of the Italian government, the Socialistic 'Lega Cittadini' and the Fascistic 'Famiglia della Sicilia'.
Meanwhile in Italian Savoy the 'Movimento di Savouè' has taken over.
More concerning for Italy is the growing 'Alleanza per una Nuova Roma' in central Italy.
Meanwhile in Pola a 'Revolutionary Government' has taken control after being voted to power, though it's not shown hostility thus far.
The Ottomans are facing increasing internal problems.
Libya, with the exception of an area around Tripoli, is now controlled by France and Britain.
In Southern Epirus and and Thessaloníki Nationalist revolts backed by Greece have taken over.
Meanwhile, after a failed Nationalist uprising most of Crete has fallen under the control of local Socialists who've since proclaimed the
Independence of the 'Socialist Republic of Crete'.
The political tensions in Russia have cooled somewhat as a result of external issues.
The Russian Invasion of Persia, following highly dubious claims of 'violations of Russian Sovereignty', has been condemned by much of the world,
however most are to busy to do anything.
The outflux of troops to Persia has allowed massive revolts in Russian Armenia to be successful, leading to almost the entire area falling out
of Russian control.
Spain has managed to hold things together, however small-scale Socialist revolts have spilled over the Franco-Spanish border and tensions are
boiling beneath the surface between the Conservative Monarchists and Liberal & Socialist Republicans.
The Balearic islands are mostly under the control of a Republican Movement following elections, however they've not moved to do anything.
Belgium is experiencing massive revolts between the primarily Franco-Walloon 'Mouvement Socialiste' in the South and the non-ethnic 'Rexists'
in the North.
The Baltic Republic, under a Liberal-Socialist coalition is struggling with the beginnings of Soviet revolts on the Balto-Russian border and the
'Lyga Lietuva ir Lenkija' in the South.
The UKSD, now the United Nordic Empire/Kingdom*, has managed through its egalitarian and liberal laws and reforms to avoid the ethnic and
ideological problems of the rest of Europe.
The threat of the Sino-Japanese Alliance has essentially vanished following the signing of the 'Treaty of Sapporo'.
Meanwhile America has been making overtures towards the Nords of the possibility of closer relations, something the UNE's government is
thankful for given the recent rhetoric by America about enforcing the Monroe Doctrine.
*It's officially the United Nordic Kingdom in English and the United Nordic Empire in Nordic.
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A take on the possible present of the first essay (no Cromwell) in the Ferguson “virtual history” collection, with some stuff stolen from GURPS alternate earths “Aeolus.” Sans Cromwell, the king managed to win the Civil War on points, but that only delayed the contest between the people of England and the monarchy’s neck by a century and a half.
Today, Radical and Integral Republics squabble, although mutually hostile to traditional Absolutism and what might be described as “Populist Fascism.” There is a somewhat prickly relationship between the Republics and largely symbolic monarchies of the Protestant League and the Catholic Federated Republics of east-central Europe, and neither particularly likes the extreme Integralism of the current British government, a nation with a Mission to Civilize and a strong belief in the usefulness of the big Stick in doing so.
The Republic follows a standardized form of High Church Anglicanism almost indistinguishable from Catholicism (although the British would pooh-pooh such a comparison), which has been successfully imposed in Ireland, but not in Scotland, currently independent under an austere Calvinist government. British-speaking America is divided between the Anglican and Catholic Kingdom of Virginia, refuge of the Stuart kings, and the Protestant republic of New England to the north. New England is almost as stiffly Protestant as the Scots, and are vigorous and single-minded traders and businessmen: although they don’t participate much in the Colonial game, the profitability and morality of which they find dubious, other European powers often complain about constantly tripping over NE missionaries running loose in their colonies.
The Federated Republics are perhaps the world’s most advanced and economically prosperous power block, and are presently trying to develop a free-trade block with the South Germans and the Protestant League, although this is somewhat hampered by religious and political differences. The Republics do not get along well with those nations with colonial possession, thanks to their rather strong positions on the evils of colonialism and racism (perhaps a necessity in a state with fourteen major ethnicities, not to mention the minor ones), and really don’t get along with the populist-fascist Russian “republic”, which very much wants the Ukraine back. Their closest allies are in the America, among the Catholic republics of those politically fragmented continents, most notably the Republic of New Atlantis (its founding fathers were a romantic-minded bunch), which although not as rich or populous as the Federated Republics is still a major power.
France dominated the world for a while, and although still controlling a sizeable empire and more of Europe than OTL, the French spend much of their time arguing about where did it all go wrong? The French monarchy is shaky, under assault by *Fascists on one side and Republicans on the other. French is spoken widely in the Americas: beside New Atlantis, the majority of the population of politically turbulent Argentina speak French (well, Creole, let’s say) and French is the court language of the Empire of Mexico, run by a branch of the Bourbons (who, alas, don’t get along at all well with their cousins in the old country nowadays). France remains the main international language, although English and Russian are also important (and the Federated Republics are trying to make an Esperanto-like synthetic language the common language of government, although currently they’re making do with French and German).
France is currently suffering from bloody pro-independence insurrection in North Africa, which they blame on ideas spread by the Federated Republics and actual material aid from the Egyptians, the most powerful of the independent Islamic states. Over the last century the Egyptians have expanded deep into Africa: the current Grand Vizier is of Masai ancestry. It has also modernized militarily to the point where the French aren’t eager to punish them for (so far unproven) support for the rebels. The Egyptians have also expanded eastward, kicking the Persians out of southern Arabia and Syria. (The Persians, who back in the 1940s looked like they were going to take the whole Arabian peninsula, have had a bad patch, losing not only in the west and south to the Egyptians, but in the north to the Russians and in the east even to their former vassals, the Afghans, who now have a seacoast for the first time in their history. )
China, it’s northern provinces depopulated by civil war and Malthusian die-back in the mid-20th century, reestablished itself as a state in the food-rich south, and under a vigorous new dynasty which has picked up some tricks of centralizing government and mass mobilization from western states, has expanded massively into still thinly populated and uncolonized SE Asia with armies of armed peasant settlers[1], only the Vietnamese so far beating back the assault. The Imperial Court hopes to eventually recapture the north, which has been occupied by the Russians and seen much of its (relatively) sparse surviving Chinese population killed or expelled to make way for Russia’s own surplus population. (This world’s pundits are laying bets on how long before the Russians feel “encircled” by the Chinese and the Federation and do something stupid).
Japan is run by a militarily junta nominally led by the Shogun, in turn nominally a vassal of the Emperor. Although a backwards country, the combination of a lack of useful resources and a bellicose, well-armed (of necessity, the Japanese “picked up the gun” again after some bullying by the Russians and New Englanders) population has so far discouraged invasion.
No single power managed to establish the paramount control the British did OTL in India, so the place remains divided between several local regimes and various European colonies and spheres of influence. Northern India is marked by the three-way balance of power between Afghans, Sikhs and the Nepalese: this balance appears to be shifting with the Afghan obtaining a seacoast and therefore better access to world arms-traders.
Africa, outside of Egyptian territory and its protectorates, has mostly been colonized. The British are modernizing and developing their central African territories, extensively if brutally, while “advanced decay” probably best describes the still extensive Portuguese empire in Africa. South Africa received a lot more settlers from the home country after the French occupied their homeland, and white and mixed-blooded Dutch make up about 40% of the overall population. After France withdrew from the Netherlands, the Kingdom found itself culturally and politically alienated from their now Republican (and Very White) homeland.
Religion is taken more seriously than in our world: the European norm is more like OTL US, while some areas (Scotland, New England) are worse. Evolutionary theory, unsurprisingly, is still a hotly debated topic in most nations. More of the Christian world is Catholic. The Jews are still having hard time of it, but the rather poisonous linkages between old-fashioned religious anti-Semitism and modern “biological” racism and concerns re “degeneration” and loss of manliness which happened in our world have not developed as far: there is plenty of anti-Semitic commentary, and some outright violence in places like Russia, but the rhetoric hasn’t reached the exterminatory viciousness it had OTL from the late 19th century to the Second World War. And the Yiddish international society of letters flourishes, especially within the Federation.
The world is more backwards and less globalized than ours. Technology is less developed: although this world has manned space stations and orbital rocket planes, electronics are still using vacuum tubes, computers fill a room, and TV is black and white and teeny little screens in a big cabinet. Rail is more important than highways (except in Russia, where abundant oil and huge distances are birthing a car-culture), and the structure of DNA has only just been figured out. Several powers have developed nuclear weapons: the biggest issue of the current day is managing to find a way to control the growth of arsenals of these rather horrid gadgets, none of which (so far) has been used for military purposes.
[1] - Not that there has been any mass extermination or displacement of locals. The Chinese Emperor is happy enough to have Thai, Laotian, etc. subjects: indeed, he has expressed in Imperial declarations that they should be overjoyed, for their standards of living are sure to rise in a more densely populated SE Asia once all those useless jungles are cut down and made into productive land.
Bruce
Today, Radical and Integral Republics squabble, although mutually hostile to traditional Absolutism and what might be described as “Populist Fascism.” There is a somewhat prickly relationship between the Republics and largely symbolic monarchies of the Protestant League and the Catholic Federated Republics of east-central Europe, and neither particularly likes the extreme Integralism of the current British government, a nation with a Mission to Civilize and a strong belief in the usefulness of the big Stick in doing so.
The Republic follows a standardized form of High Church Anglicanism almost indistinguishable from Catholicism (although the British would pooh-pooh such a comparison), which has been successfully imposed in Ireland, but not in Scotland, currently independent under an austere Calvinist government. British-speaking America is divided between the Anglican and Catholic Kingdom of Virginia, refuge of the Stuart kings, and the Protestant republic of New England to the north. New England is almost as stiffly Protestant as the Scots, and are vigorous and single-minded traders and businessmen: although they don’t participate much in the Colonial game, the profitability and morality of which they find dubious, other European powers often complain about constantly tripping over NE missionaries running loose in their colonies.
The Federated Republics are perhaps the world’s most advanced and economically prosperous power block, and are presently trying to develop a free-trade block with the South Germans and the Protestant League, although this is somewhat hampered by religious and political differences. The Republics do not get along well with those nations with colonial possession, thanks to their rather strong positions on the evils of colonialism and racism (perhaps a necessity in a state with fourteen major ethnicities, not to mention the minor ones), and really don’t get along with the populist-fascist Russian “republic”, which very much wants the Ukraine back. Their closest allies are in the America, among the Catholic republics of those politically fragmented continents, most notably the Republic of New Atlantis (its founding fathers were a romantic-minded bunch), which although not as rich or populous as the Federated Republics is still a major power.
France dominated the world for a while, and although still controlling a sizeable empire and more of Europe than OTL, the French spend much of their time arguing about where did it all go wrong? The French monarchy is shaky, under assault by *Fascists on one side and Republicans on the other. French is spoken widely in the Americas: beside New Atlantis, the majority of the population of politically turbulent Argentina speak French (well, Creole, let’s say) and French is the court language of the Empire of Mexico, run by a branch of the Bourbons (who, alas, don’t get along at all well with their cousins in the old country nowadays). France remains the main international language, although English and Russian are also important (and the Federated Republics are trying to make an Esperanto-like synthetic language the common language of government, although currently they’re making do with French and German).
France is currently suffering from bloody pro-independence insurrection in North Africa, which they blame on ideas spread by the Federated Republics and actual material aid from the Egyptians, the most powerful of the independent Islamic states. Over the last century the Egyptians have expanded deep into Africa: the current Grand Vizier is of Masai ancestry. It has also modernized militarily to the point where the French aren’t eager to punish them for (so far unproven) support for the rebels. The Egyptians have also expanded eastward, kicking the Persians out of southern Arabia and Syria. (The Persians, who back in the 1940s looked like they were going to take the whole Arabian peninsula, have had a bad patch, losing not only in the west and south to the Egyptians, but in the north to the Russians and in the east even to their former vassals, the Afghans, who now have a seacoast for the first time in their history. )
China, it’s northern provinces depopulated by civil war and Malthusian die-back in the mid-20th century, reestablished itself as a state in the food-rich south, and under a vigorous new dynasty which has picked up some tricks of centralizing government and mass mobilization from western states, has expanded massively into still thinly populated and uncolonized SE Asia with armies of armed peasant settlers[1], only the Vietnamese so far beating back the assault. The Imperial Court hopes to eventually recapture the north, which has been occupied by the Russians and seen much of its (relatively) sparse surviving Chinese population killed or expelled to make way for Russia’s own surplus population. (This world’s pundits are laying bets on how long before the Russians feel “encircled” by the Chinese and the Federation and do something stupid).
Japan is run by a militarily junta nominally led by the Shogun, in turn nominally a vassal of the Emperor. Although a backwards country, the combination of a lack of useful resources and a bellicose, well-armed (of necessity, the Japanese “picked up the gun” again after some bullying by the Russians and New Englanders) population has so far discouraged invasion.
No single power managed to establish the paramount control the British did OTL in India, so the place remains divided between several local regimes and various European colonies and spheres of influence. Northern India is marked by the three-way balance of power between Afghans, Sikhs and the Nepalese: this balance appears to be shifting with the Afghan obtaining a seacoast and therefore better access to world arms-traders.
Africa, outside of Egyptian territory and its protectorates, has mostly been colonized. The British are modernizing and developing their central African territories, extensively if brutally, while “advanced decay” probably best describes the still extensive Portuguese empire in Africa. South Africa received a lot more settlers from the home country after the French occupied their homeland, and white and mixed-blooded Dutch make up about 40% of the overall population. After France withdrew from the Netherlands, the Kingdom found itself culturally and politically alienated from their now Republican (and Very White) homeland.
Religion is taken more seriously than in our world: the European norm is more like OTL US, while some areas (Scotland, New England) are worse. Evolutionary theory, unsurprisingly, is still a hotly debated topic in most nations. More of the Christian world is Catholic. The Jews are still having hard time of it, but the rather poisonous linkages between old-fashioned religious anti-Semitism and modern “biological” racism and concerns re “degeneration” and loss of manliness which happened in our world have not developed as far: there is plenty of anti-Semitic commentary, and some outright violence in places like Russia, but the rhetoric hasn’t reached the exterminatory viciousness it had OTL from the late 19th century to the Second World War. And the Yiddish international society of letters flourishes, especially within the Federation.
The world is more backwards and less globalized than ours. Technology is less developed: although this world has manned space stations and orbital rocket planes, electronics are still using vacuum tubes, computers fill a room, and TV is black and white and teeny little screens in a big cabinet. Rail is more important than highways (except in Russia, where abundant oil and huge distances are birthing a car-culture), and the structure of DNA has only just been figured out. Several powers have developed nuclear weapons: the biggest issue of the current day is managing to find a way to control the growth of arsenals of these rather horrid gadgets, none of which (so far) has been used for military purposes.
[1] - Not that there has been any mass extermination or displacement of locals. The Chinese Emperor is happy enough to have Thai, Laotian, etc. subjects: indeed, he has expressed in Imperial declarations that they should be overjoyed, for their standards of living are sure to rise in a more densely populated SE Asia once all those useless jungles are cut down and made into productive land.
Bruce
Both look very nice.
But Iori, do you have a map of the world, instead of just Europe?
Not of the time periods, no, since nothing's really changed anywhere else since the end of the war, and even then the only thing that's changed since I posted a world map is Japan taking the Kurils.
You are heavily overestimating the abilities that gov'ts of this period had. You think "segregating" the Koreans and Chinese would be peaceful? If this conquest is going to happen, some Chinese are getting pushed off their lands, they shall not be happy. And encouraging them to South China doesn't mean they will, or that if by some strange reason they do that Korea would be able to hold it.
You're correct about that. Tributary states. Out and out conquest...not so much.
There may be a couple of passes, but think how much traffic would have to go through those passes to have a large enough force to conquer India. That needs to be a big army, and if it's a mostly Korean army that's a long and difficult supply train through Tibet and other areas. You're telling me that these soldiers would willingly put up with such a long, arduous journey into hostile territory, leaving their families and farms for massive amounts of time? It happened in Rome and Macedonia and in both cases the army stopped when they were too exhausted of war. Putting all that manpower into conquering a faraway territory and leaving your "home territories" in China unguarded does not seem a good strategy to me either, especially should the army get upset with constantly being pushed towards this, to them, pointless war.
Solely and firmly? Let me tell you something: no nation can focus solely and firmly on one particular issue. You're basically claiming Korea has no internal problems to deal with at all. The Chinese are being peacefully ruled by a foreign king? Are the mongols to busy playing "My Little Pony" not to raid North China at all or something? There's no financial issues? Everything's just somehow falling into line? Again, whatever a national leader wants there eventually comes a point where the people go "why are we doing this? It doesn't benefit me" and there's always ambitious people around to take advantage of discontent.
A pity. Even mmmeee0 would be in awe at how high I would get off something that potent.
Ok, let me get this straight: you're telling me that for some reason Byzantium held onto an alliance for 170 years? I'm finding that a little hard to swallow, as that's completely unprecedented IOTL. Possible maybe but certainly not plausible.
And wait, why is there a Korean general leading an Abasid army? I don't recall the ancient world having a "foreign exchange general" program.
Finally, in regards to the "training in North China and Manchuria" thing I don't think you get my point here. Central Asia can be travelled, true, but it is not an easy route. A conquest march through that area is not a pretty sight because there's not even much population for the army to get food from. So either you're bringing a ton of food and water with you, thus probably slowing your army down, or you starve. Neither is particularly appetizing for any military leader. The US army could "train" in Arizona all it wants, that doesn't mean it's going to have an easy time marching across the Sahara from the west coast of Africa to egypt and then conquer something there.
Again, you seem to have this weird claim that "training" will make a conquest easy. The point is those areas are, like you said, very barren. There's also very little means of communication with those areas but there's still hostile peoples to deal with. This is not modern day we're talking about, there is no instantaneous communication. The court in Korea wouldn't be hearing about anything in those areas until long after it's over, and probably not going well for the Koreans.
As for Koreans being underused, yes they are, but there's a difference between wanting to make them do better in a plausible way and deciding you want to go the route of Plastic Paddies and Ameriteens by throwing logic out the window in order to satisfy your patriotic wet-dreams. I would honestly like to see a good Korea timeline, but yours just has far too many plotholes for me to possibly enjoy it. You don't seem to understand that people will not take kindly to being conquered by Korea and will rebel when they see the chance for independence. Not to mention, wars cost money and they take able men who could be working to go to war, if you fight this many wars constantly to go on conquest there will be huge economic problems, of course you can always take that the Roman route and professionalize the armies but that's expensive and depends on recruits. You show a worrying lack of understanding of geography(North America is certainly not just "tundra and desert") and think that just because these obstacles can be passed(with great difficulty in reality at that level of technological advancement) that they can be done easily. Finally, you fail to realize that with such a large empire and no instantaneous communication that this empire would have to be very decentralized, with each territory having an autonomous governor and army to keep control, or else it couldn't react in time to threats, but by doing this there's always the risk of a general who disagrees with the empire using his loyal troops to carve his province out of the empire.
Empire building is a complex, tricky, and sometimes extremely violent process. There is a reason none of the largest empires continue to survive today and it has nothing to do with lack of will or "training".
As for your map, while I praise your marking of controlled waters I'll point out that very few of those borders make sense. Most borders are based on physical boundraries(rivers, mountains, forests, whatever) and those do not come in straight lines or perfect curves.
You seem like a fairly nice kid, and I admire your determination for a very difficult project but my advice to you is to do some more thorough research on these things before doing such a timeline.
Well I do agree, but the Mongols managed to do something similar.
Yes.
Korea Proper has three million soldiers, and five million altogether throughout the empire. I do see your point, but the soldiers would probably have some knowledge of the terrain and culture, as they would probably mostly be imported from Tufan.
That's true. I overlooked that.
I'm not saying that Korea has absolutely no internal problems to deal with. It changed the royal bloodline three times. Also, South China is either independent or a colony of Goguryeo, so it remains separate from Korean affairs, and the Mongols did not exist at the time. Rather, the Avars did, and they had their own internal affairs to deal with, and when they were united, they attempted to invade Goguryeo but failed.
There were financial issues; I stated that there was some inflation in my timeline. I feel that most of the people would have been content, although there might have been some grumbles, because Goguryeo mostly left the tribes/kingdoms/empires to their own devices.
Sry to disappoint you.
Well it's possible. Goguryeo had two advantages, namely gunpowder and the Silk Road, while the Byzantines only had one, which was Greek Fire.
I never said that. I meant that Go Xianzhi, a Goguryeo general, led the Tang in the Battle of Talas. But there still was a "foreign exchange general" program, if you could call it that.
It's obviously not going to be very easy, but it certainly is plausible. The Tang held onto the same amount of territory in OTL with less soldiers.
I see your point, but once again, the Tang accomplished the same in OTL with less soldiers.
I'll try my best to take that into consideration, although I'll point out that the empire crumbled easily with a minor revolt in Persia. Also, I forgot to add that there were also mountains in North America. However, since I feel that 170 years might be a little too long, I'll try to shorten that to 50-100 years.
It's hard to create realistic boundaries in Paint without taking about 6-10 hours to painstakingly outline the boundaries and then going over them each in turn. I simply don't have that much time to waste. Besides, all boundaries before 1000-1500 are mostly arbitrary, as there were no sufficient methods to accurately depict them.
Thanks for that bit of a compliment. I'll try my best to do some more research from now on.
That might not be the best example. The Mongol Empire was extremely decentralized and once there was even a hint that the new Khan might be weak it collapsed into competing khanates.
It's good to see that not everything is going Korea's way. Though, I still have my doubts about having that much influence and territory in Asia. I can totally see it carving out a Manchurian/North Chinese empire if it's lucky and then a long time later when the technology to support the ventures is capable they could expand north into Siberia and such, but they would probably be dealing with the Chinese in the south very often and I can't realistically see them reaching India. Battle for influence in SE Asia is possible though.
It should be noted that gunpowder alone is not a guarantee of power. For much of the early gunpowder period you'd be much more deadly as a trained bowman than you would be with a gun.
And while the Silk Road is an important trade route, it is by no means the only possible way, nor is it really a weapon. Sure, you can seriously harm the Byzantine treasury by closing it down, but there might be some ripple effects coming back towards your direction.
Ah. Misunderstood what you were saying there.
It's true that the Tang did expand to an amazing degree, but the point there is that eventually they lost much of that territory.
Oh, I totally understand that. There's a reason I don't post maps in this thread, I don't have the patience to do really indepth borders in a lot of places and I'm lost when it comes to the special effects department. It's an extremely high bar to reach, but this site is spoiled in this department thanks to Krall, B_Munro, Nugax and the like.
Glad to hear it. I wouldn't want to drive a potential TL writer from the site, but sometimes a little criticism is necessary.
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