Canada Wank (YACW)

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Dathi

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Some Métis take up ranching/farming beef cattle in the 1830s, although it takes a while for it to take off. A few of the cows are impregnated by bison bulls and the Métis find they like the resulting meat much better than plain beef. Although the first generation hybrids are less fertile than regular cattle (the males are all sterile, for instance), the resulting animals are hardier, bigger, and taste better, so they do some deliberate breeding to get what they want. By the 1850s and 1860s, when markets for meat in the south start opening up, they have their own breed of cattle that lives very well on the cold northern prairie. Cattle drives going south, although not as famous as the Tejas ones coming north, start, and that adds to the income of the area. [/FONT] [FONT=Arial, sans-serif][/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]
[/FONT]

Just to check. Is this OTL? Sounds rather unlikely if not possibly impossible but I'm getting used on this site to finding out that unbelievable things actually occurred.;)

Steve

Steve
 
Dathi



Just to check. Is this OTL? Sounds rather unlikely if not possibly impossible but I'm getting used on this site to finding out that unbelievable things actually occurred.;)

Steve

Steve
Did the Métis do it? no. Do Beefalo/Cattalo exist? certainly. Did it sometimes happen unplanned? yes.


OTL's beefalo industry bred male cattle to female bison, as the results are more fertile. However, male bison to female cattle produces a hybrid, where, even if the males are sterile, and the females aren't quite as fertile, can certainly produce F2 back crosses with cattle. That generation, as I understand it, has little problem with fertility.

Unfortunately, the 'better' way involves controlling bison in captivity, which is ... not easy.

The number of times crosses happened means that several of the wild 'bison' herds in the US are actually polluted with domestic cattle genes.

Given that the Métis herders have a smallish number of cattle on the edge of large bison herds, I would expect that you'd get crosses like that several times, just naturally. If the Métis like the result, then they could set out to deliberately repeat it.

Obviously, they'll want to do some major breeding/culling to get the desired combination of meat, hardiness and controllability.


OTOH. Bison are very well adapted to the northern prairies. Cattle. not so much. Oh, you can raise free range cattle on the Canadian prairies, but it REALLY helps if they have shelter for the coldest weather. Cattalo would do better without shelter than regular cattle.
 

Lusitania

Donor
I was wondering what the impact of "Greater Canada" has on the home islands. Did so much good land and opportunity bring huge amounts of people to Canada, what about the potatoe famine?

Did the emmigration out of the islands stay the same jsut transfer to Canada instead of USA or did it increase.

Love the story, keep it up
 
If Canada is the only* country to share a border with Mexico are we going to see a large Spanish** population in Canada or will Mexico be richer due to owning California?

*only country in North America
** Spanish as in Mexican

:)
 
I was wondering what the impact of "Greater Canada" has on the home islands. Did so much good land and opportunity bring huge amounts of people to Canada, what about the potatoe famine?

Did the emmigration out of the islands stay the same jsut transfer to Canada instead of USA or did it increase.

Love the story, keep it up
Potato famine hasn't happened yet.

The US is being pretty hostile to immigrants, so mostly it's redirection, so far.

Thanks
 
If Canada is the only* country to share a border with Mexico are we going to see a large Spanish** population in Canada or will Mexico be richer due to owning California?

*only country in North America
** Spanish as in Mexican

:)
Yes, there will end up being a significant Spanish-speaking minority in Canada.

Tum te tum te tum
 
Potato famine hasn't happened yet.

The US is being pretty hostile to immigrants, so mostly it's redirection, so far.

Thanks

Dathi

Is that being hostile to immigrants generally, because their feeling peeved about how things have turned out for them and going nativist. Or hostile to immigrants from Britain. [The latter are probably the main potential source at the moment but later on that would change].

Steve

PS Thanks for the answer on the buffalo/cattle cross-breed.
 
Dathi

Is that being hostile to immigrants generally, because their feeling peeved about how things have turned out for them and going nativist. Or hostile to immigrants from Britain. [The latter are probably the main potential source at the moment but later on that would change].

Steve

PS Thanks for the answer on the buffalo/cattle cross-breed.

Well. Most of the immigrants at this time WERE from Britain (including Ireland), AFAIK. But, basically the loss of the war gets people mad, and they look for scapegoats. 'Furriners', 'Catholics' and 'Federalists' are all made very unwelcome. Shall we say.

There is still a bit of immigration, but it's mostly 'people who look and sound like us', so some Scots-Irish into Scots Irish communities, the odd German into the Pennsylvania Dutch, that kind of thing.

Remember that US immigration was actually pretty low until the 1830s or so. About 60k for each of the decades ending 1800, 1810, 1820, ramping up to 143k for 1830 and 599k for 1840.

So they slow immigration for a decade, and just never ramp it up the way they did OTL.

See next post.:)
 
Immigration and settlement

Immigration and settlement



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]OTL, Canada's population in 1814 was 95k in Upper Canada and 335k in Lower Canada. ITTL, we have 60k more French Catholics (the royalists and their children). We also have existing populations in the new territories (5k in Michigan, ~20k in Missouri, and probably some 20k Indians in the Protectorate. At a wild guess, as many as 5k of these might be Francophone.) [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In the years immediately following the war, there is an influx of 200k settlers, mostly demobbed soldiers with their families, plus some tens of thousands of refugees from the US. (Losing the war made the US very nativist. Catholics, 'foreigners' and Federalists are all made VERY unwelcome, and large numbers fled to New England, the Maritimes and Canada.) [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The massive influx of anglo settlers worries the Roman Catholic hierarchy, as they can see that the vast majority of future immigrants are likely to be Protestant and anglo. Since this is the official policy of the British government (to introduce 'balance' – code word for getting a Protestant majority through immigration), the Church has some reason to worry. The Church starts encouraging good Catholic families to have more children to keep up their predominance. [This policy «revanche du berceau» actually is OTL, although I've probably got it starting a bit earlier.] The result is that francophone natural growth rates rise slightly to 3.5%/year (doubling time = 20 years), compared to the early, and current Anglo rate of 3%/year (doubling time =25 years). [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]After the immediate rush of soldiers and refugees ends, there is a bit of a lull. But once the St Laurence canal system is in place, and Canadian wheat is allowed into British markets, settling in Canada becomes even more attractive. Work clearing land, building canals and later railroads, and in the new mines and industries (foundries mostly, to start with), provides lots of work for poor immigrants without the capital to start/buy their own farm. And with all the new territories opening up, there's lots of room if you can afford to start your own farm. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Moreover, as Canadian exports to Britain are bulky – timber and grain (iTTL), the return legs of the voyage are mostly empty (even if they contain manufactured goods, those are much less bulky than the raw materials). This means that there is lots of room for passengers, and, since the ship is making the voyage anyway, fares are pretty cheap. In 1826, 15k settlers land at Montreal [12.6k iOTL], 33.5k in 1830 [28k], 80k in 1832 [66k]. In 1832 and 1834 there were cholera epidemics (both in Europe and in Montreal), which meant that very few settlers came across for the next few years, but in the years 1837-1841 immigration averaged 80k/year. [1][/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]This still doesn't make up for all the immigration that OTL went to the US, so South Africa, Australia and South America get earlier dollops of Anglo settlement.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Most of the immigration comes from the British Isles, but there is some from elsewhere. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The British government does not want to see Canada being an entirely Catholic country, so it starts recruiting in northern Germany and in Scandinavia, as well as among the English and protestant Scots. This recruitment effort has some success, but not much – for now. However, ground work has been laid, and in the future, people will remember the opportunity.[/FONT]




[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In 1830 there is a change of monarchy in France (Orléanist Louis-Phillipe replacing Legitimist Charles X), and the upset 'legitimists' feel marginalized. Similarly, some republicans had hoped for a restoration of the Republic, instead of a merely more liberal monarchy. Disgust with current affairs leads many to leave France, and start a new life in Canada. In total, some 50k emigrate to Canada in the years 1830-1841.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The catholic Irish are poor and crowded in Ireland. Thousands travel to Canada for a new life. Some come over to work as navvies on the canals, and then on the roads and railroads; others come as farm servants, working on established farms until they can pay off their transportation debt and build up some capital for their own farms. Since they work, by preference, for other catholic farmers (i.e. usually francophone ones) they often marry a daughter of the family before starting their own farms. Similarly, Irish girls coming over may work in French speaking households as servants, or work in sweatshops in e.g. Montréal. In either case, they learn French, and are as likely to meet a french-speaking husband as an Irish one. So, of the Irish that come over, some 50k essentially merge into the French community, while the others either end up in Irish (often Gaelic speaking) settlements or in general Anglo settlements.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In the Protectorate, we start with some 20k Indians in 1814. This increases naturally to 33k by 1841, and there are about 17k refugees from the US who join them (mostly Indians who are 'encouraged' to leave from what is now Ohio and Kentucky (including the southern bits of what used to be Indiana and Illinois territories). Some come from as far away as Pennsylvania and Tennessee, and a few blacks fleeing slavery join the Confederacy society rather than white society.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]So. In total, by 1841, we have total population in Canada of 2.32 million (1.11 French +1.16 Anglo +.05 Indian). [2] [/FONT]




[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In the years immediately after the war, some 50k francophones move west 20k to Michigan, 15k to St. Louis, 15k to 'Wisconsin' (mostly Chicago area), and down the Illinois River, which provides a solid French-speaking core to these territories. Over the next 25 years, more move west in a steady trickle. Also, much of the Anglo settlement comes west. By 1841 Wisconsin and Missouri each have rather more than 100k population, Michigan has 200k+, Québec has 800k+, Ontario has 900k+; there's about 100k in the Protectorate (about as many whites on the US border and along the Illinois river as there are Indians), and the population of Iowa is growing, especially in the areas immediately adjacent to Wisconsin and Missouri.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]As you might expect, like calls to like - each immigrant group tends to settle in a village with other people like them. So, going down a major river (say the Illinois, which is a particularly mixed area), you'll have a Kickapoo village, then a French royalist one, then a Canadien one, then a German protestant one, then another (mixed) French one, then a Potawatomi one, then protestant Scots village, then a highland Scots one, then a village of former Americans (United Empire Loyalists), followed by an Gaelic speaking Irish village, then an English (settlers from England) one, then another Kickapoo one, then a mixed-blood one, then one with New England settlers, etc. [/FONT]





[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]1 Note: numbers are only up about 1/5 from OTL. But... Many of the settlers iOTL moved on to the US, which was only partly balanced by a smaller number coming up from/through the States. The other major difference is that the rebellions of 1837 in Upper and Lower Canada really discouraged people, so immigration slowed massively then. Here, there is no such brake, and the immigration continues where it left off.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Note that US immigration iOTL was some 60k in the 1810s, 143k in the 1820s, and 599k in the 1830s. This is in addition to the some 200k that came to Ontario and stayed. Here, the US is very unwelcoming of immigration, so takes in maybe 50k in the '20s and 100k in the '30s, all of whom would have to 'look' American (so Scots-Irish, the odd German, that sort of thing). There is a net OUTflow of Roman Catholics.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]So OTL immigration to North America in the 20s and 30s is some 942k, iTTL it's 750k. Of the remaining ~200k, probably more than half stay home, but South Africa (~50k), Australia (~20k) get more settlers than OTL, and 10 or 20k probably settle in southern South America. Note New Zealand isn't opened for settlement until 1840, so, while they will get settlement, it hasn't happened yet.[/FONT]




[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]2 natural increase takes the Anglo population to ~660k and the Franco population to 1.01M. Add 500k and 100k respectively from immigration and you should get the 1.16 and 1.11 figures. Compare the 2.3M figure for iTTL's Canada with the 2.6M figure for Scotland in the same year, or 2.23M for New England the year before (OTL, probably a touch higher iTTL). Note that the US is about 14 million at this point (OTL 17M-700k immigrants, -2.2 New Englanders). Of these, almost 2.5M are black. I assume that the population that OTL moved to territories not longer part of the US still move west, to more densely settle Ohio, Kentucky and the two new southern states. While they may not be able to get as much land, or as good land, there should still be land for settlement. Now, 1840 is probably the last Census date you could make that claim.

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[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Nugax convinced me I was being too sloppy. Plugging reasonable immigration figures into a spreadsheet, doing natural increase every year. (3% Anglo, 3.5% Franco, 2% Indio) gives a 1841 data set of : 1245.7k Anglo; 1144.4k Franco; 58k Indio for a grand total of 2448.2k. Consider the earlier numbers wrong, and these correct.[/FONT]
 
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Hmm, interesting. How much of that immigration is going to New England? Plus, IIRC it was around the 1830s that French-Canadian immigration to New England (in OTL) really took off.
 
Hmm, interesting. How much of that immigration is going to New England? Plus, IIRC it was around the 1830s that French-Canadian immigration to New England (in OTL) really took off.

Little, I think, but maybe some. They are still getting people coming in from the States.

The French Canadians have much better opportunities out west iTTL, they aren't going to be flooding south for cheap mill jobs.
 
Futurely the populational trend will be even more favourable to Canada, and the more or less mixed pattern of settlement may help forge a strong national identity, by not having anyone with strong majorities in most places.:cool:
There are also interesting implications for the future of other Dominions.:)
 
Little, I think, but maybe some. They are still getting people coming in from the States.

The French Canadians have much better opportunities out west iTTL, they aren't going to be flooding south for cheap mill jobs.

Hey, you never know if the "revenge of the cradles" ends up with a huge surplus population that is more attracted to the mills (plus propaganda from the mills willing to find workers that are cheap).
 
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