Canada Wank (YACW)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Oh my.

That does change things, doesn't it. Prussia with Belgium, eh? Oh, that's going to make any alt-Franco-Prussian war ... interesting, isn't it.

Could be very bad for Prussia. Belgium at this point is probably the most industrialised region outside Britain. However it is non-German which is likely to cause problems. Also I presume that since Prussia gets Belgium and all of Saxony it doesn't get the Rhineland. Furthermore with Belgium Prussia is likely to clash with France earlier.

I had considered this in a TL I had on this general theme but thinking of it as part of a different bargaining after the 100 days. If Susano is right about that this will be a big change in the European situation. Also presumable other adjustments. [I.e. Russia probably getting all rather than most of Poland. What happens to the eastern Rhineland? Does the territorial changes for Prussia be viewed as more or less favourable that what it got OTL. Since that will affect what counter-balancing territorial gains by the other powers]. Basically the butterflies from this will mean that, ASB aside, just about anything can change over future generations.

Steve
 

Thande

Donor
However it is non-German which is likely to cause problems.

Susano will kill you for that ;)

There is the issue of francophone Wallonia, but the region was part of the Holy Roman Empire until the French Revolutionary Wars and had been under Austrian rule for many years.
 
Corn Laws/Grain trade

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] There is also a demand for a better port than Montreal (not only inaccessible about half the year, but big ships can't make it all the way to Montreal without dredging. This will make a rail connexion to a better, all year port important). [/FONT]

Interesting. How good are relations with New England? I think the Corn Laws would sink the idea unless some exception for transit is allowed, otherwise a railway to Boston might be the simplest option.

Definitely a feedback effect in terms of the development of Canada. Greater population, more territory and the tension with the US are speeding things up and probably going to accelerate.

Steve
 
Interesting. How good are relations with New England? I think the Corn Laws would sink the idea unless some exception for transit is allowed, otherwise a railway to Boston might be the simplest option.
I'm not quite entirely sure what the hang-up was, actually. I almost wonder if it didn't have to do with hypothetical American attacks in mid-winter. Grain can be exported nicely with a short season, the Seaway OTL, today, is only open ~9 months a year. And rail to e.g. Halifax would surely cost too much to send wheat.

As for New England and the corn laws. New England didn't produce much, and IF any grain were shipped through New England to e.g. Boston, there would have to be some assurances that the grain shipped out of port was the same amount as the grain crossing the border from e.g. Montreal. But that wouldn't be horribly tough.

As of 1836 OTL (and probably iTTL) there is no rail connection to Vermont, particularly Lake Champlain, so it's a moot point for the first decade.... I say no more now.




Definitely a feedback effect in terms of the development of Canada. Greater population, more territory and the tension with the US are speeding things up and probably going to accelerate.

Steve
I'd say so, yep.
 
There is the issue of francophone Wallonia, but the region was part of the Holy Roman Empire until the French Revolutionary Wars and had been under Austrian rule for many years.
Err.. but the HRE was pretty hands-off compared to Prussia. I suspect that Catholic, Francophone Wallonia would NOT be happy under Prussian rule. But I can leave that to the European experts.
 
I'm hoping to get back to you with a map to explain things better.
Speaking of maps. Nugax has very graciously volunteered to work on a comprehensive map of North America for me, which will be wonderful. I've seen the first draft, and it's great. We're arguing about precise borders, but there will likely be a whole swatch of retconned border changes when he gets done. He's (quite politely) pointed out a large handful of d/o/o/f/u/s/ m/i/s/t/a/k/e/s/ minor oversights I made, and has some very good ideas in other places. So let's see what happens there.
 
As for New England and the corn laws. New England didn't produce much, and IF any grain were shipped through New England to e.g. Boston, there would have to be some assurances that the grain shipped out of port was the same amount as the grain crossing the border from e.g. Montreal. But that wouldn't be horribly tough.

As of 1836 OTL (and probably iTTL) there is no rail connection to Vermont, particularly Lake Champlain, so it's a moot point for the first decade.... I say no more now.

Well, it would not be like they would try - there was the Boston and Providence Railroad in 1831, among other lines in New England. What would really help is if the Boston and Worcester Railroad, which in OTL was chartered in 1831 and construction began in 1832 (completed in the mid-1830s), was accelerated in TTL to some time around the 1820s, with an extension to Springfield. From Springfield, it would be possible to make a connection to Burlington, and from there use the existing waterways to get to Montréal. Plus, now that New England is independent, rail construction is probably going to take some priority (along with roads) so that, in case the US decides to attack, troops could be mobilized quickly to defend the border, so I would expect some construction going on in New England - particularly those states that have a border with New York. So, who knows - maybe there would be a connection with Vermont in TTL, if only with a military purpose first and foremost.
 

Thande

Donor
Speaking of maps. Nugax has very graciously volunteered to work on a comprehensive map of North America for me, which will be wonderful. I've seen the first draft, and it's great. We're arguing about precise borders, but there will likely be a whole swatch of retconned border changes when he gets done. He's (quite politely) pointed out a large handful of d/o/o/f/u/s/ m/i/s/t/a/k/e/s/ minor oversights I made, and has some very good ideas in other places. So let's see what happens there.

Nugax? Excellent!

As for Europe, after speaking to Susano and Valdemar I now have this map for Europe in 1815 for your TL (ask if you need any of the colour codes clarified) :

For Dathi.png
 
There's no plausible reason for Prussia to lose Silesia to Austria.

Not only does Belgium make no sense as being assigned to Prussia, it also means Holland is deprived of its sole gain in the war, likely to be a major issue in the future when the British need Dutch goodwill. Not to mention Saxony alone is a reasonable replacement for the Rhenish territories of OTL.

Also the improvement in Russia's Polish territory makes no sense as the Russians had less to do with winning the war and Prussia and Austria would both oppose such changes.
 
Just wanted to follow-up that Silesia had been Prussian since 1742 and, with the partial exception of Polish territory from the Third Partition and Austrian Netherlands(given up almost in relief), none of the major powers gave up anything they held when the Napoleonic Wars began.

Given the importance of Silesia to Prussia the only way Austria would get it would be a successful military invasion.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Just wanted to follow-up that Silesia had been Prussian since 1742 and, with the partial exception of Polish territory from the Third Partition and Austrian Netherlands(given up almost in relief), none of the major powers gave up anything they held when the Napoleonic Wars began.

Given the importance of Silesia to Prussia the only way Austria would get it would be a successful military invasion.

They trade it to Russia for Saxony (which is worth a lot more), while the Russians trade it to Austria for Galicia (Which make Russian Poland much more easy to control and defend). It's a good deal for everybody.
 
Since Prussia got much of Saxony OTL this trades Prussia's second most valuable province after Brandenburg itself for the remains of Saxony, and apparently much of Prussia's Polish territories as well. There's no way Prussia would agree to such a bargain. Perhaps if they were awarded Belgium AND OTL's Rhenish provinces...

A proposal like this means the peace conference broke up and a new war erupted with a Prussian defeat or the borders didn't happen.



I'm sure Austria would trade part of Galicia for all of Silesia if the offer was made...also it makes no sense that Austria would resent Prussia getting Saxony when Austria was part of the bargain which arranged it in the first place.
 
British monarchy

British monarchy



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In the summer of 1816, the big news was the marriage of Princess Charlotte Agusta to Leopold of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfied. This vibrant celebration captures the imagination of the British people, and in their minds, crowns the glory of having won the wars against Napoleon (and America).[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Charlotte has some problems with her pregnancies, suffering a handful of miscarriages during the course of her childbearing years. However, her personal physician has read a number of the reports coming out of the Florence-Nightingale Society in Canada, and tries feeding her nutritious food and not doing bloodletting. On the 4th of November 1817, she gives birth to a healthy daughter, Princess Augusta Sophia to great rejoicing. Two weeks after her birthday in 1819, she gives birth to a son William Edward George on February 18, and then in 1824, after several more miscarriages and a still birth, another son Leopold Francis John on the 24th of June. Since each pregnancy and birth was difficult, and since they now have three healthy children, including an heir and a spare, Charlotte and Leopold decide not to have any more children. The succession is assured, however, and when George IV dies in 1830, Charlotte ascends to the throne as Charlotte I, with Leopold as her Prince Consort. Charlotte lives to the age of 73, dieing in 1869.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]With the death of George, there is a new election for Parliament, as was the rule in those days, and Charles Grey (2nd Earl Grey) was returned as Prime Minister quite handily. He immediately introduced the Reform Bill of 1831 which would remove rotten boroughs, etc. increase representation in new large cities, and expand electorate by 50-80% to 1 in 6 adult males. [Since his monarch is a queen, the specific wording introduced to limit the electorate to males is quietly dropped.] The bill passes the House of Commons, but is voted down by the House of Lords. This causes something of a constitutional crisis. Earl Grey strongly presses the Queen to ennoble enough Whig Lords that the bill can pass. To make enough Lords to outvote the current ones would require not quite doubling the size of the House of Lords, which would cause a HUGE furore. She appoints several new Whig merchants as barons, and dissolves Parliament, calling a new election, in which the Whig reformers increase their majority quite a bit. Charlotte then goes and talks (quietly) to many of the Tory Lords. She makes it quite clear that she can repeat the process as long as is necessary, that defending an obsolete and unfair bastion of their own prerogatives will do them much harm in the long run, and that they just aren't going to win this one. Thus when essentially the same bill comes up again in 1832, and comes to the Lords, the chamber is more than half empty (members refusing to show up to vote), but the bill passes.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]As Charlotte is a woman, and Hannover has Salic law, the throne of Hannover goes to her uncle William. William, not having any specific duties in England any more, moves to Hannover, and implements a more liberal constitution for his new Kingdom. [/FONT]



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Note: Charlotte, being born after the PoD is a different person with a slightly different body. Together with slightly better medical care, she survives her (still difficult) pregnancies. Her survival means uncle Edward isn't forced into marriage, and thus Victoria is never born. William being actually present in Hannover means that the liberalization takes root a little more strongly.[/FONT]
 
Susano will kill you for that ;)

There is the issue of francophone Wallonia, but the region was part of the Holy Roman Empire until the French Revolutionary Wars and had been under Austrian rule for many years.

Thande

It was part of the HRE but while overwhelmingly German in its later years it wasn't strictly speaking a German state. The same could be said for the Hapsburg empire of course. Furthermore times are changing. National identity will matter a lot more. Especially possibly now that the Wallonians and Flemish are small groups in a much bigger state than the combined Netherlands of OTL.

Also, as Dathi says there will be other social factors. Most noticeably Balgium is Catholic and also has a much different social character to junker dominated Prussia - presuming liberal reforming forces lose out again in Prussia.

Steve
 
Guys

On the suggested European borders I find the suggested Silesian change rather odd. On the other hand there will be discontent otherwise if Prussia makes such large gains.

From what I remember reading about it initial ideas were that Prussia would get all of Saxony and Russia all of Poland, which nearly caused war as Britain, France and Austria were strongly opposed. The Rhineland was transferred to Prussia in large part as compensation for only annexing part of Saxony. Also it got Posen and Austria got Galacia so Russia didn't get all of the latter.

As said if the Netherlands don't get Belgium then it wouldn't have any compensation for probable colonial losses. On the other hand it might be considered that it is too weak to defend the region against renewed French aggression. [Although with Napoleon dead this may be less important?]

Difficult to say how things go. However if Prussia gets Belgium, all of Saxony and a good chunk of the Rhineland then the other powers and especially Austria will want some compensation. I find a transfer of Silesia rather unlikely but it needs something substantial. Only alternative I can think of is if Napoleon's other prominent German ally suffers the same fate and Austria takes Bavaria. [This presumes that both Saxony and Bavaria stick with France as long as they did OTL].

There is one other big question. What happens to the deposed Saxon [and possibly Bavarian] royal families? [When I was playing with a similar TL a few years back I had Prussia get all of Belgium, Saxony and a chunck of the west bank of the Rhine while Austria, as well as its gains in N Italy annexed Bavaria. However this was after a slightly more successful 100 days and the Saxony dynasty becomes kings of a state including Alsace and Lorraine while the Bavarian ones become kings of Tuscany. The situation is somewhat different now.

Grimm - I'm surprised about you saying Russia had less to do with winning the war? Presuming most of the Grand Army are still lying somewhere on the road back from Moscow?

Steve
 
Well something like the above division could see Britain giving most of the Cape back to the Netherlands to keep them on board with a Franco-British Axis, keeping the Eastern Cape and Natalia as strategic holdings (i.e much like the Dutch east Indies, giving most of it back except the nicest bit). And/or you might see them getting east Frisia via some horse trading.

You could have Silesia being split in some manner into upper and lower portions.

I'd certainly say that Austria with Bavaria and Prussia with Saxony so early would likely encourage the formation of distinct North and South German national states later on, rather than a German Empire and rump Austria. Spare German royalty can always be used in the new world, as Dathi has already started on...
 
Dathi

Interesting developments with Britain. As you say with Charlotte surviving and producing heirs the so called Royal sweep-stakes will be largely butterflied and Edward will probably stay with his long time mistress, so no Vicky. Not sure how thing would go with a different but older woman on the throne or how Leopold will do in place of Albert as a reforming figure in Britain?

One question. Without Charlotte's death will any of her uncles indulge in a mad race to get a heir that late in life? If not that not only denies us Vicky but also George, the son of the Duke of Cumberland and later the last king of Hanover. [Only other legitimate childred were those of Adolphus Duke of Cambridge who also married late after Charlotte's death]. If none of the uncles produce a heir then, saying they die in the historical sequence, William will be succeeded by Ernest who dies in 1851. What happens then to Hanover? Would it go to Charlotte or possibly to her son William? A re-uniting of the two kingdoms, especially once that would be pretty certain by 1830 if none of George III's sons had produced heirs by then, could have a big effect on events in Europe.

Steve
 
Top
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top