Canada Wank (YACW)

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Dathi

Back from hols and catching up on my favourite threads. Most definitively including this one.:)

Sounds to be developing well. Hadn't realised how rough the US economy was by the end of the war OTL although knew it would be vulnerable once the blockage tightened.

Rather a bloody nose at Buffalo, which does balance things out a bit and gives the US some encouragement to fight on. Although that could make it worse for them in the longer run. As stated however the problems of continuing the siege of Niagara without stockpiled supplies could be a problem for the Americans. Possibly, although the distances will be a problem the American wounded from the Gourock attack can be swapped with some of the British prisoners from Buffalo?

Going to be interesting the potential political and social effects of the assembly of tribal warriors. Might just be the trigger for some more lasting success for Tecumseh's plans for Indian unity? Or at least some lessons learned. Possibly also the warriors who return westwards will not only have better weapons but also a lot of new ideas.

One small quibble with the statement about the naval ratings. I think a 1st rater was a ship from about 98guns up to some of the 120 gun giants. 2nd raters were about 80-95 guns and 3rd raters were 64-72 gunned ships. [Although they frequently carried more guns than their ratings]. Surprised how big some of the ships being built on the Lakes were but Victory was definitely a 1st rater.

Steve
ATL's USS Victory is a 74, so possibly 3rd rate, possibly 2nd. HMS Victory was rather different. I should probably have chosen a different name for the US ship, but the OTL (larger) version was the New Orleans, and named after Jackson's battle....

What's even more surprising is the SPEED they built them, actually.
 
ATL's USS Victory is a 74, so possibly 3rd rate, possibly 2nd. HMS Victory was rather different. I should probably have chosen a different name for the US ship, but the OTL (larger) version was the New Orleans, and named after Jackson's battle....

What's even more surprising is the SPEED they built them, actually.

Ah! Sorry, I got confused on that. Was thinking of HMS when you called it a 3rd rater.:p

The speed is dramatic, especially given the limited resources. Think a lot of the ships built quickly in that time period were with relatively green wood so they tending not to last that long or take damage well. Not sure if this would be the case with ships on the lakes but might be a factor. Especially if prolonged mistrust, which seems likely, leads to an arms race on any lakes still shared between Britain/Canada and the US.

One other point. Given the difficulty in getting heavy equipment especially to the front, even in the New York area. Possibly the most difficult to replace, not to mention bloody expensive loss, from the naval defeat will be that much artillery.

Steve
 
fixes for the penultimate post, and apologies

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Sorry for taking so very long to post this, but no I haven't dropped it. Life happened - my son was sick, we had his twelfth birthday, I got sick. I got sick again. Sigh. I should get the 'Winter 1813/14, western frontier' post up today. In the meantime, here's a handful of comments on the last post but one (the penultimate one).[/FONT]



  • [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The “Illinois and Missouri, fall/winter 1814” segment is really Fall 1813, as should be obvious from context.[/FONT]

  • [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Footnote 1 there talks about the 'unfinished wall' that Howard 'saw'. That should have been Edwards, the Illinois governor who thought he saw that.[/FONT]

  • [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The battle at Fort Gourock happens in September. I don't think I gave a date. This is during the time that the Battle on the Maumee (which was rather more drawn out) happens. The displacement of Major Generals Lewis and Wilkinson, the appoint of MacArthur in Ohio and the transfer of the command of the 8th Military district to Howard, all happen during October and November of 1813. So news of that doesn't get back until WELL after the battle at Gourock, let's call it early November.[/FONT]
  • [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The last sentence of that post read “There are various Indian raids (some to be described later), but snow starts falling and the Americans in the West breathe a sigh of relief that the war is over until spring. “ You guys DID hear the ominous music accompanying that, right?[/FONT]
 
Winter 1813/14, western frontier

cameo time!

Winter 1813/14, western frontier



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Relations between Illinois and Missouri[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]As noted in the previous post, the uncoordinated and desperately unsuccessful attacks on Fort Gourock very much poisoned the relations between Illinois (led by Edwards), and Missouri (led by Howard). Edwards is so upset that he leaves Illinois 'to visit family' in Kentucky; and the Illinois militia and settlers are very upset, and unwilling to cooperate, with Howard. Similarly, Howard is infuriated by the Illinois position. Thus, defence of the two territories is uncoordinated. Each territory pulls its people back to the core settled areas that can be more easily defended, and each starts furiously building blockhouses and forts. The Illinoisans, while fewer, are more concentrated along the flood plain of the Mississippi, and are relatively compact and can build blockhouses on the hills above the valley to control access to the settled area. The Missourians, while more numerous, are spread out, with settlements along the Missouri as far as OTL's Kansas City. They would really like to build a series of forts on the Illinois side of the river, to stop the British, but that doesn't end up being feasible. They do build a couple right across from St. Louis, which even the Illinoisans end up having to agree is only what's necessary.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Both Missouri and Illinois are very short on manpower. Missouri, for instance, had 3400 militia before the Battle of Gourock, and rather less after. Between conducting patrols, building all these new blockhouses, etc., both territories are very overstretched. The few militia that Kentucky can spare for the western territories are all snapped up by Illinois before they get to Missouri, so Missouri doesn't get even that minimal help.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Since both territories have pulled in on themselves so much, the British are able to build a couple of forts much closer to the American settlements to use as bases, and leave Gourock with just a skeleton force. The British strategy has a couple of prongs. 1) they want to control as large a territory as possible, 2) they want to provision themselves and deny the provisions to the American defenders 3) they want the loyalty (or at least the acquiescence) of anyone remaining in territory they control (which ultimately will be all of it, they hope, or at least all of Missouri), and 4) they want to not only deny provisions to St. Louis and any forts which are holding out, but to herd loyalist Americans there to add to the mouths that need to be fed, and further limit how long the US forces can hold out.[/FONT]




[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Status of Indian forces[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]As already mentioned, a couple hundred Indians from around the Great Lakes had already joined Black Hawk during the summer raids, and for the Battle of Gourock. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]There were also a few Santee Dakota and some Ioways raiding into northern Missouri, enough that isolated farms have been abandoned and people move into one of the fortified places along the Missouri river. There were several small fortified communities, with perceptible numbers of armed defenders, like 64 at Fort Cooper, 112 at Fort Hempstead, 52 at Fort Kinkaid (settlers' forts, not army forts). These places are immune from attack by small groups of Indians, and so they are joined by some of the more isolated farmers. These plains Indians can't do much more than scare settlers at this point, partly because of those forts, and partly because the Osages (the local Indians) are pro-American and the raiding parties have to avoid them as well as the American patrols.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]However, with the Gathering of the Nations in September, we now have several hundred more Indians from OTL's Canada, northern Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, even a few from as far as Alberta, while many plains nations from the northern US have met at Prairie du Chien or Saukenuk. These forces have to be moved south and organized, and all that takes some time. Moreover, once the news of the Battle of Gourock spreads, several nations that had previously leaned toward the US (e.g. Yankton and Teton Sioux), relent and let their warriors join the British side. Even the Osages pull back, and are prepared to stop actively supporting the Americans. (And, of course, the pro-US Sauk faction led by Keokuk look like total losers now...)[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Attacks on Illinois[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]When the first snow falls, the Americans in the West breathe a sigh of relief, because, 'obviously', no one's going conduct a major, long distance military campaign in the winter, so they're 'safe' until spring. Unfortunately for them, that's not true. They do get a break for a month or so in early winter while rivers and creeks freeze over. (When there is enough ice you can't use a boat/canoe, but not enough to walk on safely, that really impedes travel in places without good roads.)[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]So, the first winter raiding parties down into the American bottom are incredibly successful, as there are few look outs or standing response forces. As the winter progresses, more forts are built, more lookouts stationed and a formal system of alerting neighbours is established. A couple of Indian raiding parties get caught, and those raids slack off. Then the raids get more sophisticated. A couple of raids make it down into the bottom lands and when the hue and cry arises and an eager mounted posse chases after the raiders, that posse runs right into an ambush and is largely wiped out. Thereafter, the posses are more careful, which means that, of the raids that happen, many raiders get away, but the level of raids slows down to an annoyance rather than an open wound.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Attacks on Missouri[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The attacks against Missouri are more complicated. The American Bottom of Illinois is easier to defend, is closer to the rest of the United States (although that doesn't matter too much right now), and is further from any British supporting bases. All of which means that Britain really doesn't have a lot of hope of taking that territory AND HOLDING it. Missouri isn't so fortunate.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Different parts of Missouri are treated rather differently. a) St. Louis itself is, by now, well protected with newly built blockhouses and forts, so the town itself is relatively safe. Not that a few raiding parties don't slip in once and a while. b) The area around the town is fairly well populated, but there are limits to how many forts Howard can put up and man, and how many patrols he can run. Moreover, the Brits want to rule the area later, so they are somewhat careful in their approaches. Note that both these areas have a heavy French population from before the Louisiana purchase, and the Brits hope they won't be as fanatical about defending the US. c) the smaller settlements and forts along the Missouri, which are mostly populated by recent American immigrants. These small forts were impervious to the summer probes by the British allied Indian raiding parties.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]General Darroch sends a message to Governor Howard at St. Louis (also another to Governor Edwards, also to each of the commanders of the various forts) asking for their surrender. Terms would be a) British control over the area, b) inhabitants to either swear loyalty to the king or agree to British control and surrender arms c) anyone who refused to do either would be allowed to leave for American controlled territory. The offers are turned down, some politely, some rudely, but no one surrenders at this point.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In the area around St. Louis, especially outside the ring of forts, British forces mixed army and Indian approach each farm. The farm is hailed in English and French, and if the farmers will parley, they are offered similar terms – except that they have to agree to sell food and goods only to the British forces, not to the American forces or the town. Any farmer who goes along with that is left alone peaceably. Anyone who refuses basically has to flee to the town or a fort with only the clothes on their backs, and their supplies are confiscated. Farmers who have relatives in town are allowed to bring them out and feed them, as long as they agree to the conditions.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Most of the old French settlers are prepared to live with these arrangements, whether they are happy about it or not, and many American farmers do, too, under protest. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Scouts watch the farms, and if the farmer tries to reneg on the agreement, they suffer consequences.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Even within the ring of forts, the British send large groups to visit the farms. While the forts are well manned, they are mostly manned by freshly raised militia who had had no previous training. They may be able to defend the forts OK (as the British discover when they probe them), but they are pretty useless sortieing out to stop the British movements (as the Americans discover when they try). So, as long as the British keep their parties large enough and stay out of cannon shot (or even musket shot) of the forts, they can pretty much roam at will through area. Here, however, there's no point in demanding that the farmers swear loyalty to the King, or that they refrain from supplying the town. What happens instead, is the British forces seize any supplies they find surplus to the needs of the farmer, and take those supplies off to their base. If the farmer cooperates, he gets paid in gold, if not, in scrip redeemable after the war.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]One of the most effective leaders of these groups is a militia officer named Étienne Bucheron, who started the campaign as a lieutenant, but was so useful he was quickly promoted to captain. He had a real knack of working with the various Indian groups, respecting their traditions and listening to the elders among them. Thus he had enough respect from them that he was able to convince them to do things the way the British officers wanted. (OK, so it may not have been the METHODS his superiors asked for, but he got the results they wanted.) It became well known around the army that any Indian group he led was 'disciplined', and he was sent on more and more missions. Which meant he had to be promoted again, as the groups he led got larger. (What 'disciplined' means here, to the British, is that no 'atrocities' happened, and that the Indians didn't get drunk and loot and kill and burn. This was not 'discipline' as the British understood it, but rather an appeal to their self-interest (e.g. getting drunk in hostile territory is really stupid), issued by someone whose word held value in the natives' sight, who understood them, and whom they could understand.)[/FONT]




[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The supplies bought from these farms really eases the strain of supporting all the new Indian allies, and it makes the defenders of St. Louis, at best, hungry.[/FONT]




[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The smaller forts along the Missouri were invulnerable to attack by unsupported small groups of Indians. Now, however, the British send out large groups with a few supporting soldiers and a couple of small cannon. Only the very smallest cannon can be managed through the wilderness, and little in the way of ammunition, but the small forts have NO cannon. First the force cleans out the surrounding farms of any useful food and supplies (although the sensible groups had already moved most of that into the forts), burning anything that the raiding party couldn't use or carry away. Then they approach the fort. One of the soldiers is a sapper named Alex Yaraday, nicknamed by the Indians 'Thundermaker'. He supervises the cannon (for the forts they manage to get a cannon to), and has lots of other tricks. For instance, one fort is taken by placing a satchel charge by the back gate at night and blowing it open when most of the defenders are asleep. Cannon breach the defences of another. One way or another each of the small settler forts is taken, most by swarming Indians pouring through the breach, and loosing mayhem inside. One of the smaller forts does surrender once its walls are breached, and they realize their situation is hopeless.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The survivors are disarmed, and required to swear loyalty to the king or be marched down to St. Louis. The one group that surrendered gets to haul any belongings they can in carts, and take their animals, the others are marched out with just what they can carry on their backs. In any case, they are escorted to St. Louis by a small group of Indians and soldiers.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]A few settlers do stay on, taking the oath of loyalty, which engenders considerable hard feelings between those that stay and those that go, as you can imagine. The walls of the forts are torn down, but otherwise those remaining are left alone.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Also in the British party is a mapmaker named Brad King (nicknamed by his buddies 'King of kings' or 'northstar' because of his obsession with maps). His job is to accurately map this new land the British want to control. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The only fort on the Missouri that is NOT taken is Fort Osage (near OTL Kansas City). It is well defended, the fortifications are stronger than the settler forts, and it is supplied with cannon, and the small British cannon didn't make it that far. But the fort is cut off from supplies and the rest of the United States, so it is surrounded by a small group of Indians to keep an eye on it and left alone (for now).[/FONT]
 
Wow, I'm honoured that you put me in a cameo! Awesome! :)

Well, I was doing a cameo, and thought. 'Hey, let's do some more!'

I looked at all the posters to this thread, and anyone I could come up with a name for (mostly if their user profile had a given name), I faked.

Edit: I don't think I know ANYONE's real name. (well, except for my own... Yup, went to my user profile and found out what my real name was.:):confused:)
 
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Sorry for taking so very long to post this, but no I haven't dropped it. Life happened - my son was sick, we had his twelfth birthday, I got sick. I got sick again. Sigh. I should get the 'Winter 1813/14, western frontier' post up today. In the meantime, here's a handful of comments on the last post but one (the penultimate one).[/FONT]

Dathi

Sorry to hear your son and yourself were ill. Hopefully fully recovered now and not just because it means the TLs moving again.:D

Is Britain, or elements in the Canadian leadership actually serious about tryin g to hold all those areas? Especially parts of Missouri for instance. That's going to be a hell of a long way away from Canadian supply, even with the Great Lakes under control while the Americans are going to have large populations pretty close.

Mind you, looking at a map in my historical atlas. Given the current borders of New Spain and the thin American population of Missouri territory it possibly wouldn't be too difficult to get a line along the 42nd parallel effectively cutting the US off from most of the great plains and the Pacific. At least until they either win another war with Britain or more likely possibly go through New Spain/Mexico. [Although that hint about Canada gaining all Louisiana, just not yet, could make the latter very difficult].

Steve
 
Is Britain, or elements in the Canadian leadership actually serious about tryin g to hold all those areas? Especially parts of Missouri for instance. That's going to be a hell of a long way away from Canadian supply, even with the Great Lakes under control while the Americans are going to have large populations pretty close.

Mind you, looking at a map in my historical atlas. Given the current borders of New Spain and the thin American population of Missouri territory it possibly wouldn't be too difficult to get a line along the 42nd parallel effectively cutting the US off from most of the great plains and the Pacific. At least until they either win another war with Britain or more likely possibly go through New Spain/Mexico. [Although that hint about Canada gaining all Louisiana, just not yet, could make the latter very difficult].

Steve
The OFFICIAL position is that the Louisiana purchase was invalid, and the area needs to be returned to Spain. Of course, everyone can see that Spain isn't going to keep control of the area. The original British idea iTTL is to make the US pay twice for the same land. As the Brits are doing better, they're actually hoping maybe they can keep their hands on chunks of the area (probably de facto first, then de jure). By now, they're pretty sure they can keep all of e.g. OTL's Minnesota, probably Iowa and the Dakotas, and they'd sure LIKE to keep Missouri if they can arrange it. If they could take New Orleans, they'd be ecstatic.

The Brits are already thinking in terms of offering land (or rather having Spain offer land) to veterans of the Spanish and Portuguese armies, and perhaps some of their own men with Spanish wives, say. The war in Europe isn't over, they're not making any statements, but thoughts are rolling around in people's heads.

At the moment, the Brits have NO intent to take over any Spanish territory that's currently under Spanish governance. (They'd rather leave Texas and Florida Spanish for instance, to avoid overstretch.) What happens in the future, well, wait and see.



Did you notice, by the way, that the phrasing on the oath offered the locals was "loyalty to the King". This wording is actually deliberate. WHICH King (British, Spanish, possibly French, heck I suppose even some raja in India), didn't matter so much as that they're abjuring loyalty to the Republican Americans. Demanding loyalty to King George, specifically, when they are nominally going to return the area to Spain doesn't make sense, nor does demanding loyalty to the Spanish king who is likely never to administer the area again. Being vague is good here.
 
The Brits are already thinking in terms of offering land (or rather having Spain offer land) to veterans of the Spanish and Portuguese armies, and perhaps some of their own men with Spanish wives, say. The war in Europe isn't over, they're not making any statements, but thoughts are rolling around in people's heads.

That would be a good way to help settle and secure the region. Not just any gains from the US in Louisiana but also OTL Canada as well with British veterans. Not to mention that there could be a fair number of veterans of the current campaigns that might have established roots in the area, which would hopefully also help relations with the Indians as many would know more about them and quite possibly take native wives.

At the moment, the Brits have NO intent to take over any Spanish territory that's currently under Spanish governance. (They'd rather leave Texas and Florida Spanish for instance, to avoid overstretch.) What happens in the future, well, wait and see.

Definitely a wise idea. Its going to be difficult for them to secure any lands they get from the US against possible annexation by settlement.

Did you notice, by the way, that the phrasing on the oath offered the locals was "loyalty to the King". This wording is actually deliberate. WHICH King (British, Spanish, possibly French, heck I suppose even some raja in India), didn't matter so much as that they're abjuring loyalty to the Republican Americans. Demanding loyalty to King George, specifically, when they are nominally going to return the area to Spain doesn't make sense, nor does demanding loyalty to the Spanish king who is likely never to administer the area again. Being vague is good here.

Good point. Drive the wedge in by making an acceptance of a monarchy ruling the area without alienating anybody who might be friendly. Given their long influence in the region this would probably apply more to French than Spanish settlers I would have thought.

Steve
 
Sorry to hear you were ill but hopefully you and yours are all better.

Great update...I need to go search out more maps though to understand the US midwest better. Unfortunately I know the north and west well from travels but the east gets grey pretty quick.

Interesting take on Indian raids and how they develop. The nicknames (and granting of them) are extreamely plausablle and most fellows I know (white or native) tend to be on their gaurd working around each other to avoid getting labelled with a nickname they don't want :)

What aspect will the success of British sponsered native raids have upon the US friendly tribes in the south/midwest. The loss of face from the string of defeats and the coup gathered (respect/honor/reputation) could easily lead to alot of local recruitment despite the offical council position of being US friendly.

Nice to see the acknowledgement of the old french trade network in this area though. Well done.
 
Great update...I need to go search out more maps though to understand the US midwest better. Unfortunately I know the north and west well from travels but the east gets grey pretty quick.
next map SHOULD be all of eastern North America. I need to start working on that.

What aspect will the success of British sponsered native raids have upon the US friendly tribes in the south/midwest. The loss of face from the string of defeats and the coup gathered (respect/honor/reputation) could easily lead to alot of local recruitment despite the offical council position of being US friendly.
I've already got two Sioux groups switched from 'pro-US' to 'leaning to Britain' (or maybe the elders are 'leaning to US', but they're letting their warriors sign up with the Brits), and I've got the Osages pulling back from 'pro-US' to 'leaning to US, but getting out of the way', and the 'pro-US' faction of the Sauk are now totally discredited.

Nice to see the acknowledgement of the old french trade network in this area though. Well done.
Ya, well I read something about how French was a significant minority language in St. Louis a full generation later, so I imagine it had to be a pretty large percentage in the 1810's. As a WAG, I'm guessing 40-50% french in the immediate St. Louis area. The settlement and forts up the Missouri are almost entirely Anglo, so the date for the whole territory will be rather less 'french'.

Like your promotions?
 
Green is neutral Vermont
Blue is US control
Red is British
Gold (it was supposed to be yellow) is Spanish

Blue dots in the west are St. Louis on the Mississippi and Fort Osage near OTL Kansas City.

Red dots are the Brits holding Fort Niagara and Plattsburg NY on Lake Champlain.

Still new at this whole map business.

(Gee, and I got a map up BEFORE Northstar whined at me this time!)

ENA-181401.png
 
Thanks Dathi,

Things make much more sense now. I kept thinking things were further north than events were actually occuring.

That map sure highlights the spur Maine forms along the New Brunswick border...interesting to see where that goes.
 
Dathi

Will echo foresterab's comments on the map. Very useful for visualising things. Hadn't realised how much had come under British/Indian control. Maintaining it at and after the peace could be another factor and the US could well see some reforms that makes it a far more formidable rival than OTL but I think their western expansion has been put back considerably even if somehow Britain agreed to the pre-1812 borders. [What with settlers displaced, concern about the vulnerability of those areas and the fact the locals will have a lot better arms and experience of larger scale military operations, let alone possibly more insight into the advantage of overcoming tribal rivalaries].

Many thanks

Steve
 
You know looking at green vermont and how it effectively forms a vassal buffer state between British Canada and the U.S., well it made me think that it would not be unrealistic for the British to use diplomacy to detach New England from the States. There was a lot of hatred for the war in New England at this point and the hatred will grow even more in this timeline due to how bad the U.S. is doing at this point. There was a separatist movement in New England at this point, and clever diplomacy could actually force the break in the United States, detaching an important source of men and logistical support from the American war effort.
 
You know looking at green vermont and how it effectively forms a vassal buffer state between British Canada and the U.S., well it made me think that it would not be unrealistic for the British to use diplomacy to detach New England from the States. There was a lot of hatred for the war in New England at this point and the hatred will grow even more in this timeline due to how bad the U.S. is doing at this point. There was a separatist movement in New England at this point, and clever diplomacy could actually force the break in the United States, detaching an important source of men and logistical support from the American war effort.
Ayup. Just wait and see.
 
So is the USA just going to be just the eastern portion of OTL? That's hard to believe,so is Canada just going to be most of North America? :rolleyes:
That's the idea. If we want 'Canada' to be at least as strong as the States, she needs a LOT more fertile land. The trick is to do it without ASBs and to do it with the resulting land being legitimately a 'Canada'.
 
That's the idea. If we want 'Canada' to be at least as strong as the States, she needs a LOT more fertile land. The trick is to do it without ASBs and to do it with the resulting land being legitimately a 'Canada'.

Kenichiro, Dathi

I would say if Canada secured the lands it currently controls and settled and developed them it would probably be at least as powerful as a rump US, even without the detaching of New England. [Although the latter would obviously help].

I say this partly because those territories contain the core of industrial age America, with a lot of the heavy industry base. Also because the effects of such a loss would have significant effects on the US. It could be a more dangerous neighbour in the longer term but could also see a fair amount of distraction and disorder while it sorts itself out and decides who and what was to blame for the defeat. Most noticably there is going to be a significant shift in the balance between free and slave states. Unless you believe the idea in 'Decades of Darkness' that industrial slavery is likely to be successful, which I admit I don't, that could generate further problems for the US.

Not saying a victory here and gaining the lands show would make it a done deal. However I think it would arguably be the most significant part of the task of making Canada as powerful as the US, along with what policies are followed in the aftermath of the war to secure the gains - demographically, politically, economically etc.

Anyway, probably getting way ahead of things. Still need to persuade the US that its now going downhill and should come to the peace table. That could be a task in itself.

Are there any butterflies beyond the immediate eastern N America yet Dathi? I think you mentioned something about no 100 days so any visible changes yet that might result in that?

Steve
 
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