Canada Wank (YACW)

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While I wouldn't go as far as perfectgeneral I would have thought a 1783 that keeps the Ohio border for Canada would be simplier. Wasn't much of the area north of this occupied by the US because their army drove out the Indians. If instead of being 'empty land populated by savages' it part of the territory of one of the most powerful states in the world its going to be far less likelty that large American armies are going to be marching through it. The Indians, with possibly some token British support can fairly easily handle small groups of unwelcome settlers if their not backed by America soliders or militia. After all in this conflict isn't Canada basically taken back most of this land, which is surely more difficult than holding it in the 1st place in peace-time?
Umm... Several problems here, all of which might be addressable.

Firstly, the American settlers were slipping across borders and squatting on the land, and no law passed by any government was going to stop them, so you have to remove them, not just pass some law.

Secondly, the 'Indians' didn't have a central government that could enforce its will on its own people. Even the Haudenosaunee (Iroquois), who had the most organized native state in the area had an incredibly loose form of government by our standards. So, even IF you had organized 'anti-settler patrols' by a regular establishment of disciplined 'Indians' who could politely, but firmly escort squatters over the border, you'd still have hot-heads who'd go and burn the farm over the people's heads. Which, would lead to an uproar in the US and retaliation.

Thirdly, the Indian lands are just not important for the UK. Trade with a semi-friendly US is FAR more advantageous to Britain than a bunch of essentially empty land.

Fourthly, if the Brits were to maintain some 10s of thousands of troops to protect the Indians, how would they supply them? The population of Canada massively increased between 1783 and 1812, even in OTL, let alone in my TL. Moreover, what population there is is mostly in OTL Quebec, and you then have to handle the logistics of supporting troops way to the south.


As I say, I could imagine any one of these being dealt with. If you want to make a try at it, it would be interesting to read. But I just don't see the sustained will power in Britain to keep up the level of force projection and annoyance of a big and growing customer.

One of the things you may have noticed in my TL is the number of Yellow Press headlines that are being generated. Something like that is just going to be necessary to keep both sides from making peace.

Given the continued set-backs are the Americans considering ending the conflict? Although with Britain and its allies holding a considerable section of territory that could be the sticking point. [Given the comment about what happens to Washington and other US towns I think this is going to be going on some time past 1814;)]. - Know I've said this before but don't think Britain burnt Washington in the conflict. They burnt certain government and military related buildings, partly in response to the US behaviour in frontier villages and at York but burning Washington suggests an wholesale razing of the place which definitely didn't happen and wasn't intended.
Sure, the US is sending out peace feelers, but their basic position is they (domestically) need a deal that IMPROVES on the status quo ante. Given the Brits are (iTTL) kicking their butts, the Brits really have NO interest in those kind of terms. If the US offered Michigan, Wisconsin and Minnesota in exchange for peace, the Brits would fall over themselves to backstab their Indian allies and make peace, but there is no way, none, that the US would even CONSIDER those terms at the moment. The US KNOWS they have a far larger population than Canada does, and if they can just get their act together, they can march into Canada and take whatever they want. Unfortunately for them, that's not possible (politically, economically and organizationally). Besides, Britain is distracted (understatement) by the Napoleonic wars and they are (at the moment) feeding almost no extra troops into the conflict.


Anyway, another subscription to keep an eye on this.:D

Many thanks

Steve

Wow. Thanks
 
I have tried to upload a base map for much of the area I found at
http://images.nationmaster.com/images/motw/historical/n_frontier_1812.jpg

No markings yet, just trying to figure out the upload process. Hmm... actually has MOST of what we want here.

What more does anyone want to specifically add?

n_frontier_1812.jpg
 
Copy%20of%20Hyowj%20NA[1].GIF

I got bored and made this.

Everyone likes Canada-wank, I imagine it tastes like Maple-Syrup.

Don't know if it's of use. I suspect not, but I enjoyed making it.

:)

Copy%20of%20Hyowj%20NA[1].GIF
 
View attachment 76093

I got bored and made this.

Everyone likes Canada-wank, I imagine it tastes like Maple-Syrup.

Don't know if it's of use. I suspect not, but I enjoyed making it.

:)

Not really... *Canada is never going to have that much of NY, but will (in the long run) have all of the US's 'Louisiana Purchase', although it will take a while for the annexations to happen - we have to get the population up, first.

At the moment (1813), *Canada consists of Lower Canada (southern Quebec) Upper Canada (southern Ontario) and Canada West (LP Michigan, essentially). Rupert's Land (which includes all land in Ontario and Quebec that drains north into Hudson's Bay) is still the private preserve of the Hudson's Bay Company. Louisiana is still firmly in American hands. Most of Indiana (and chunks of Illinois) are no mans land. Isolated white and Indian villages, roving bands of Indian and US Ranger raiders. Not a fun place to be.


Hmmm... Did people want a map with that kind of info. Let's see what I can do.
 
Interlude 2

Interlude 2
The Partners of the North West Company meet with Prevost to discuss their scheme. He is overjoyed at the offer of help, but slightly dismayed at the price asked. Still, it's a good idea, and with some negotiation on terms, a deal is reached. Prevost immediately sends a message to London, in part suggesting that the Hudson's Bay Company take part, too. The North West Company sends off to its suppliers in England for the extra trade goods that will be necessary, and starts preparing for the effort. There's actually little to do until break-up, as the great majority of goods and news travels on water, not land, but some messengers are sent out on foot across the snow to carry the message.​

Then when break-up happens, and the great goods flotillas of canoes head out from Montreal into the Pays d'en haut (the upper country) they carry messages.​

Firstly, anyone who wishes to fight for the British for 5 muskets or equivalent in trade goods should present themselves at any of several posts on specific dates e.g. the full moon in September. Mackinac is the major one for the northern tribes. Detroit for the eastern ones, Ft Garry (basically Winnipeg Manitoba) for the northwestern ones, and Saukenuk at the mouth of the Rock River (Quad Cities, Davenport, Moline, Rock Island, Bettendorf) or Chicago for the south western ones (southwest only in fur trade terms, of course!). This last is a bit optimistic, as the British didn't actually have a base there. Of course, they didn't have control over the lakes, and if don't gain it, the whole program's going to go up in flames, whereas if they do have control, seizing Chicago and the length of the Rock River are not going to be a huge problem. (The Brits do not technically have a base at Saukenuk, but it's Black Hawk's birthplace, and probably about the safest place in all Illinois at the moment (for Brits and British allies).​

Secondly, word goes out to all Buffalo hunters within reach that the NWC and British governments will buy any and all pemmican they can make and deliver it anywhere on the Red River (of the North) or at Saukenuk.​
 
Interlude 3

Interlude 3
Other thoughts:​

  • The Brits are already using John Molson's steamboat the Swiftsure to move men and matériel up the St. Lawrence from Quebec City to Montreal. (This is, OTL, apparently the first use of a steamboat for military purposes.) (Yes, the beer Molson. Really. Built steamboats. No, I don't know why.) They contract with him for several more – and to see if he can design a very shallow draft version for the rivers of the new west – ultimately, perhaps, even the Mississippi. Such a boat would have to be portageable in pieces and assembled above rapids/in a different watershed. He agrees to go talk to his engineers to see what they can do. He won't promise anything, you understand.​
  • In the meantime, they want to buy one of his boats, as well as renting the Swiftsure.​
  • There are many bottlenecks in transport from the ocean into, e.g. Lake Erie, but the primary ones are the rapids and falls that require very slow and skilled effort to get upstream (some rapids) or portaging over land (other rapids and Niagara Falls). In either case cargos have to be loaded and unloaded several times on the trip. To get around this (literally), several sets of canals and locks would be exceedingly helpful. Perhaps we can't actually start building, with the war on and drain on manpower, but let's get some possible sites surveyed and some possible locks designed. The war won't last forever, and the US is going to be hostile, let's be prepared. Besides, it will make the interior of Canada far more economically viable if shipping costs can be massively reduced.​
  • We need desperately more shipping on the various lakes. In 1812, several of the available commercial vessels were seized and converted to gunships. We need to replace those and more, as the volume of possible/necessary traffic has just sky-rocketed, with all the military men and supplies that need to be moved. In particular, many more ships will be wanted on the upper lakes if the NWC strategy is to be particularly effective. Thus, starting about January orders go out to build unarmed ships at all three shipyards as well as armed ones. Since the biggest problem at Amherstburg preventing the warship there from use was cannon, and secondarily gunpowder, cannon balls and heavy hardware like anchors, much smaller (unarmed) sailboats CAN be finished when the warship can't. Also, when one ship comes off the ways at each site, another should be started. Prevost not only asks for the 150 Quebec ship builders of OTL, but more, and recruits actively among the French. There would be few actual ship builders among the royalists, but some might have worked in shipyards between fishing trips in their youth, or knocked together a small fishing boat. Also, lots of Canadiens have built bateaux or dories or other fishing boats and some of those (possibly scaled up a bit) would be very useful on the upper lakes. Some of these are encouraged to go as far as the Red River. While it would be great to count on the Hudson's Bay Company York boats [different York!], they haven't even heard the proposal, let alone signed on to it. The more boats the better, anyway.​
  • Massive planting of hemp is to be encouraged everywhere in the Canadas, but especially inland. While the crops won't be ready for these ships, if cordage and sails can possibly be produced on Lake Erie it will really lower the load that has to be portaged between lakes for the next generation.​
  • London is already considering arming Creeks and other Indians in the US southwest (OTL's Alabama and Mississippi, basically), partly to distract the US from Canada. They take the decision to investigate this further, and to provide ample arms if they are interested. There is some discussion about arming free/escaped blacks in the south, too, but they don't want to be perceived as fomenting slave revolts, so they hold off on that now. If ever there are 'allied' irregular forces operating in the area, blacks would be welcome, under British command, but that is only a future hypothetical at the moment.​
 

May 1813

The rush to get the York-built warship out into the harbour and into battle is such that it was never properly christened. Some wag comes up with a suggestion, that they should call it the “Cornwallis” and the new name is made official. Thus newspapers across the world can shout “This Time Cornwallis WINS at York-town”.​

The defense of the York harbor meant that all the supplies (guns, cordage, etc.) that were meant for the flotilla on Lake Erie were saved, and were soon able to be on their way. On the other hand, the battle damage to all the ships involved meant a LOT of repairs had to be done to put everything right. On the third hand, there were enough damaged ships that e.g. rigging could be cannibalized from less vital/more damaged ships to repair more vital/less damaged ships.​

General Sheaffe's defense of York, while not inspired, was (ATL) resolute, and he stays in his command. [OTL he was disgraced and retired.]​

On the American side, their next plan was to attack Ft. George and start working their way up the Niagara peninsula. However, most of the army they were going to use just surrendered at York, and the fleet they were going to use to transport and supply the army with was just eliminated. General Pike is dead, and General Dearborn and Commander Chauncey are captured. Panic strikes.​

Meanwhile, Brock has ordered many of the troops that were stationed as far east as Quebec City to start moving west. Now, he received full command over British troops in the Canadas on 1 March, and wanted to move people closer to the front. However, the situation with Prevost was a bit uncertain, especially just how much who was in charge of what. This meant he needed to move slowly. He wrote to Prevost 2 days after he received word of his new responsibilities, with the suggestion 'that all but a minimal garrison be moved from Quebec City as soon as possible', what did Prevost think, and who should issue the order, if it was issued. Prevost wrote back that while he wasn't entirely sure it was a good idea (i. e. he thought it was a horrible idea, but he wants to be polite about it), that London had made it clear that such movement of men and matériel was quite within Brock purview now, and there was no need for him (Prevost) to either issue the orders or even review them. He would, of course, like to be kept informed. ( i. e. I don't want anything to do with this, when it blows up in your face, it's your problem buddy boy. And I want a paper trail.) So, it is not until the middle of April that Brock can get orders out to move men and equipment from Quebec. [I'm exaggerating Prevost's peeve, but he's perfectly aware that he's been bumped out of the line of command. Moreover, just because Brock's excessive impetuosity has worked a couple of times, doesn't mean his luck will hold. Still. Well. Their Lordships command. And hey he gets a nice shiny title out of it. ... OK, so he'll shut up and try to make everything work and maybe it WILL all work out for the best. At least no one will ever be able to claim George Prevost played petty politics.]​

By the time the attack on York happens, the battle at Presqu'ile is already over, although word takes a while to travel the distance. Immediately on hearing of the attack on York, Brock leaves the clean up at Presqu'ile to Procter and heads to York and then Kingston as fast as he can, arriving May 14. When he gets there, he finds Sir James Yeo who had just arrived the week earlier (one week earlier than OTL). Yeo is furious that he just missed the naval battle at York, and the two of them discuss with Dacres (and Prevost) just what needs to be done now. It is decided that as long as Sackett's Harbour exists as a US base on Lake Ontario, that British control will be threatened, and they should see what they can do about it. (OTL, Prevost (of all people) decided to strike at Sackett's while the US forces were attacking Fort George – which doesn't happen ATL).​

Now Prevost had had as many as 4000 men at Kingston (OTL numbers), and Brock is moving some west. So by the time that Brock and Yeo have assembled the necessary shipping (including repaired and partly repaired ships from the Battle of York, but also bateaux and some of the salt boats and barges the US moved men TO York on), they have 4000 men they can take, while leaving Kingston defended. They sail for Sackett's on the evening of 27 May. The American forces on the lake being heavily reduced, there is no spy boat waiting to run off to Sackett's to warn them. So when the Brits arrived just after noon on the 28th, it was to almost total surprise. The Brits started to land, creating a beachhead and then moving in toward the harbour. Meanwhile there was great confusion in the town, because the people expected (militia) Brigadier Jacob Brown to lead them, but he wanted to pass it off to a Colonel of the regular army who was present. After some discussion, Brown did take command, but precious time had been lost and what might have been forward defensive lines were never held. Still, Sackett's Harbour held 2000 men who had been gathered for an attack on Fort George (which never happen iTTL), and there was fierce resistance. The initial line of militia broke and ran, and kept running when the British regulars formed line and marched and poured fire into them, but the American regulars formed line, and while they had to retreat under superior numbers, held their line and behaved professionally. When Brown sees his militia fleeing, he comes up with a stratagem – he sends cavalry out around announcing victory and rounding up some of the fleeing soldiers. Of course, some of them run into the British cavalry or advanced scouts or Indian patrols – and when the cavalry officer announcing 'victory' is shot out of the saddle by an unseen gunman, it really doesn't inspire confidence. Still he gathers enough to form a new attack column.​

Meanwhile, Brown sees a column of smoke from the centre of town. Fearing an envelopment, he sends to find out what it is and discovers a naval lieutenant has started burning the ship on building stocks and naval stores, having decided the day was lost and that denying the matériel to the Brits was his job. Prevost, who's along for the expedition sees Brown's new column approaching and tries to order a retreat. Brock and Yeo gently point out to him that they are in charge, and his ADVICE, while gratefully received, will not be followed. The fighting is not finished by night fall, so both sides bivouac with strong guards around. However, since the fighting takes up most of the available men on the American side, there aren't enough to control the fire at the navy yard, which rages out of control, and sets the town on fire. In the morning, at first light, the battle resumes, and the British have a much easier time of it because so many Americans were either 1) fighting the fire all night, 2) fighting the fire right now, 3) ran off to retrieve their goods and family to get them out of the way of the fire (and/or fighting), or 4) were just demoralized by the whole chain of events.​

The British require the American soldiers to gather in a group under guard, and won't let them go fight the fire (which by now has mostly died down, but there are still smoldering embers that could restart the blaze). Many of the locals are very resentful of the invading British, seeing them as responsible for burning the town (and indeed, that is the version carried by newspapers across the States). As British patrols go through (what remains of) the town and the surrounding country side looking for stores and weapons, they are occasionally fired upon by a gunman in hiding. This, of course, makes the British less friendly, and less willing to follow the rules themselves.​

The British demand that all guns in the area be turned in, and start sending out patrols to enforce this. Any male caught with a gun is treated as an enemy combatant, and thrown into the guarded compound. Any one caught actually shooting at the occupation forces (or caught and blamed for such a shot) is summarily executed. They briefly consider shooting hostages for every British soldier shot, but they discard the idea. This time. They also unleash the Indian scouting contingent, telling them that any armed American left in the woods is fair game. They also stop handing out punishment for looting.​

It takes a bit of time for the Brits to remove the cannon from the forts and ashes of the storehouses, and blow up the forts into uselessness. The last patrols through the area remove any all the food they can find, bringing it into a central site. They finish burning the town, and trample growing crops (trying to implement a scorched earth policy to prevent the US from successfully using Sackett's Harbor as a base again). Then they prepare to leave.​

They assemble all the civilians and give them a handful of choices. 1) stay there, with 7 days rations, 2) be dropped off at Oswego to let the US care for them, or 3) (in the case of young women, mostly, but also mothers with small children) go to Canada with the returning flotilla. The protection of the RN and the army is, of course, only guaranteed in the last case. (The motives in the case of the last group are slightly mixed – especially in the case of the single women. However, the main motivation really was protection of the innocent. The story that circulated in the US didn't mention the mothers with children, and hinted or even stated base motives for the offer.)​

Firstly they drop off the civilians at Oswego. In some ways, the British leaders would have liked to attack Oswego about this time (before they have time to bring in any more reinforcements or increase the defenses), but with the flotilla ferrying various people in various directions and with a sizable chunk of the army needed to watch over the prisoners, and prevent the civilians who stayed from trying something rash, their resources available would be rather iffy. Moreover, they'd then have to deal with all the civilians (the ones they promised to transport to Oswego) as just leaving them in ruined Sackett's Harbor would have been to condemn them to abject misery, at best. So, they say to themselves 'Oh well, can't be helped', and just drop off the refugees. Mind you, they do get a chance to spec out the harbour and defences at Oswego, which makes them feel a bit better.​

The next task is to take the 'innocents' who wish it off to Kingston.​

Then they deal with their prisoners. This is a real problem, because they've already being accumulating prisoners of war faster than they can really cope with them, and now, they have over 2000 in a single group. [While there were only 2000 soldiers at Sackett's Harbor when they arrived, and some were killed or escaped, the numbers are more than made up by the 'armed combatant' civilians.] In a normal war, they could engage in prisoner exchanges, but here there have been so few British prisoners taken that that doesn't relieve the burden much. Note that the naval yard workers, even if not armed or formally part of the army, were rounded up with the military prisoners.​

Those prisoners with certain useful skills (especially the boat builders), and who wish to work on parole are permitted. Many of the boat builders absolutely refuse to work on war ships for the British, but some are convinced to work on commercial craft. More are willing to bend a bit and work on those commercial craft after they've been in the PoW camp for a while.​

The prisoners are stored for a while in PoW camps, which are crowded and muddy and not as sanitary as it might be, while Prevost and company try to figure out how to handle the mess. Finally, they find an island they can dump the prisoners on. Let them grow some of their own food, isolate them, so if they do escape off the island, they'll never make it back, and guard the shores with light forces. Drop food off about once a month until they can get garden plots growing. Drop off more prisoners as they're accumulated in battle. Of course, a goodly number will escape off the island, but most won't survive in a hostile land, and if a very few make it back to the States, it's not such a big deal.​

The Americans call this solution 'Devil's Island' and 'an extermination camp'. In fact, it represents the Brits' best effort at a humane long term solution. While the death rate (from various causes) in the camp is much higher than if they were living at home, it is a lot less than if they were stored on prison hulks where many French PoWs are stored back in England. So, once again, the British are doing their best, and are being vilified for it.​

Meanwhile, navy Lieutenant Melancthon Woolsey is feverishly trying to prepare the defences of Oswego. It's not a great port, but now it's all the US has on Lake Ontario. And now he's saddled with hundreds of hungry civilians he has to deal with. Some of them, the more able-bodied, are put to work on building defences, but he sends most of them inland, up the Oswego back to civilization. It's hundreds of miles before they get to any major settlement, and many of the weak, infirm and the smaller children never make it. Once they do get to e.g. Albany, the government doesn't really know just what to do with them and many of those who survived the trek inland don't survive the coming winter.​

Woolsey, of course, in addition to trying to build up the defences of Oswego, also wants to reinstate Sackett's Harbor as a port. But the only good way to do that is to send supplies by water in small boats, and the Brits have left a schooner to travel up and down the coast specifically to prevent that. After losing several loads of men and supplies, he gives up. For now.​

As for the civilians left at Sackett's Harbour, they suffered various fates. Some few had farms or family outside the radius of British patrols and only suffered poverty and some hunger. Others, with farms within the patrol area were able to stay and survive if they had been cleverer at hiding enough food than the patrols were at finding it. But over half tried straggling through the woods back to 'civilization', and while many managed to do it, they were in such a piteous state that they often died shortly thereafter.​

Very many of the civilians this group wished they'd chosen evacuation to Oswego, and the mothers evacuated to Oswego often wished they'd thrown in with the British.​

New York state is enraged the disaster, and raises 5000 more militia to retaliate. Of course, there really isn't any way TO retaliate at this point. They end up cutting roads and paving them with logs all the way into Sackett's Harbor, both from the south and from Oswego. However, rough road transport like that makes a VERY long supply line, and while they end up being able to surge some thousands of militia up the road, they really can't supply them for extended periods of time, and getting e.g. cannon up such a road is ... no fun.​

The end result is that whatever the US builds up in Sackett's Harbor during the war gets ripped down by the Brits when the protective force has to be withdrawn. While the US never formally abandons Sackett's Harbor, the effort becomes perfunctory after a while. Oswego stays a viable base for now, however.​
 
Interlude 3
Other thoughts:​

  • The Brits are already using John Molson's steamboat the Swiftsure to move men and matériel up the St. Lawrence from Quebec City to Montreal. (This is, OTL, apparently the first use of a steamboat for military purposes.) (Yes, the beer Molson. Really. Built steamboats. No, I don't know why.) They contract with him for several more – and to see if he can design a very shallow draft version for the rivers of the new west – ultimately, perhaps, even the Mississippi. Such a boat would have to be portageable in pieces and assembled above rapids/in a different watershed. He agrees to go talk to his engineers to see what they can do. He won't promise anything, you understand.​
  • In the meantime, they want to buy one of his boats, as well as renting the Swiftsure.​
  • There are many bottlenecks in transport from the ocean into, e.g. Lake Erie, but the primary ones are the rapids and falls that require very slow and skilled effort to get upstream (some rapids) or portaging over land (other rapids and Niagara Falls). In either case cargos have to be loaded and unloaded several times on the trip. To get around this (literally), several sets of canals and locks would be exceedingly helpful. Perhaps we can't actually start building, with the war on and drain on manpower, but let's get some possible sites surveyed and some possible locks designed. The war won't last forever, and the US is going to be hostile, let's be prepared. Besides, it will make the interior of Canada far more economically viable if shipping costs can be massively reduced.​
  • We need desperately more shipping on the various lakes. In 1812, several of the available commercial vessels were seized and converted to gunships. We need to replace those and more, as the volume of possible/necessary traffic has just sky-rocketed, with all the military men and supplies that need to be moved. In particular, many more ships will be wanted on the upper lakes if the NWC strategy is to be particularly effective. Thus, starting about January orders go out to build unarmed ships at all three shipyards as well as armed ones. Since the biggest problem at Amherstburg preventing the warship there from use was cannon, and secondarily gunpowder, cannon balls and heavy hardware like anchors, much smaller (unarmed) sailboats CAN be finished when the warship can't. Also, when one ship comes off the ways at each site, another should be started. Prevost not only asks for the 150 Quebec ship builders of OTL, but more, and recruits actively among the French. There would be few actual ship builders among the royalists, but some might have worked in shipyards between fishing trips in their youth, or knocked together a small fishing boat. Also, lots of Canadiens have built bateaux or dories or other fishing boats and some of those (possibly scaled up a bit) would be very useful on the upper lakes. Some of these are encouraged to go as far as the Red River. While it would be great to count on the Hudson's Bay Company York boats [different York!], they haven't even heard the proposal, let alone signed on to it. The more boats the better, anyway.​
  • Massive planting of hemp is to be encouraged everywhere in the Canadas, but especially inland. While the crops won't be ready for these ships, if cordage and sails can possibly be produced on Lake Erie it will really lower the load that has to be portaged between lakes for the next generation.​
  • London is already considering arming Creeks and other Indians in the US southwest (OTL's Alabama and Mississippi, basically), partly to distract the US from Canada. They take the decision to investigate this further, and to provide ample arms if they are interested. There is some discussion about arming free/escaped blacks in the south, too, but they don't want to be perceived as fomenting slave revolts, so they hold off on that now. If ever there are 'allied' irregular forces operating in the area, blacks would be welcome, under British command, but that is only a future hypothetical at the moment.​

Sounds like a lot of planning and logical consideration of future developments, both military and economical. [But then this was before laisse-faire became the fashion so such things could be done;)].

On the arming of escaped slaves I was reading somewhere recently that Britain did do this OTL. [Just wish I could remember where]. Came as a surprise both because I didn't think, other than New Orleans, there was much fighting in the south, although might have been slaves from further north. Also since I though they would be reluctant to, both because they wanted to end the conflict as quickly and peacefully as possible and to avoid causing problems in their own Carribean possessions.

With the southern Indian tribes I suspect they may be unwilling to accept any offers. Means they attract the hostile attention of the US government while they could easily be left out on a limb.

Think with all the things going on and the input from the yellow press that we're definitely going to get one of the scenario requirements, i.e. prolonged bad feeling between Canada/Britain and the US. Plus with Brock still alive and Provost sidelined I can see a more determined 'forward defence' for Canada.

What is the situation in the N England states? Are they still lukewarm to the conflict or are the reports from N York about the Sackett's Harbour 'attrocities' changing that. It could make it awkward if they do.

Interesting comment replying to someone earlier about Canada getting all the Louisianna Purchase territory, just not at this period. Sounds like the old Chinese curse is going to apply to N America in TTL.

Steve

PS Knew I forgot something. Many thanks for the maps.
 
Dathi

Sorry I didn't get back to this earlier.

Umm... Several problems here, all of which might be addressable.

Firstly, the American settlers were slipping across borders and squatting on the land, and no law passed by any government was going to stop them, so you have to remove them, not just pass some law.

Secondly, the 'Indians' didn't have a central government that could enforce its will on its own people. Even the Haudenosaunee (Iroquois), who had the most organized native state in the area had an incredibly loose form of government by our standards. So, even IF you had organized 'anti-settler patrols' by a regular establishment of disciplined 'Indians' who could politely, but firmly escort squatters over the border, you'd still have hot-heads who'd go and burn the farm over the people's heads. Which, would lead to an uproar in the US and retaliation.

Thirdly, the Indian lands are just not important for the UK. Trade with a semi-friendly US is FAR more advantageous to Britain than a bunch of essentially empty land.

Fourthly, if the Brits were to maintain some 10s of thousands of troops to protect the Indians, how would they supply them? The population of Canada massively increased between 1783 and 1812, even in OTL, let alone in my TL. Moreover, what population there is is mostly in OTL Quebec, and you then have to handle the logistics of supporting troops way to the south.


As I say, I could imagine any one of these being dealt with. If you want to make a try at it, it would be interesting to read. But I just don't see the sustained will power in Britain to keep up the level of force projection and annoyance of a big and growing customer.

One of the things you may have noticed in my TL is the number of Yellow Press headlines that are being generated. Something like that is just going to be necessary to keep both sides from making peace.

The way I see it is that any such settlers are doing so illegally and hence can legitimately be run off the territory. Since I would expect that most would be farmers that means their in a settled position with assets - crops, tools, some sort of house etc. This makes them easier to locate that say wandering hunters and also the destruction-compensation of those assets would hurt economically. Similarly if a few get killed resisting arrest and deportation so what. This will mean there's a significant deterrent to such incursions.

True large elements in the US will complain bitterly. Given conditions and racial views at the time, even if the Indians behaved impectably there will be claims of massacres and attrocities. However this can also work in the Indians favour. The US built but an image of the Indians as brutal savages, in part probably to excuse their own behaviour towards them. However in the OTL 1812 conflict this often worked against the US because a number of times British forces were able to presuade much larger US ones to surrender under the threat of if it comes to fighting we can't control our Indian allies. Similarly, in the discussed post-1783 scenario, I could see a lot of would be settlers discouraged from any such invasions.

Also OTL the US was able ultimately, to call in the army to crush Indian resistance to encroachment. This however was often difficult and costly and in the scenario proposed means a clear armed invasion of British territory. This is going to be very risky for the young state given its dependence on trade with Britain and also, until the Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars really take off, very vulnerable to a short sharp shock of counter attacks on its coastlines.

As such, while I could see clashes and probably cross border raids from both sides, I don't think Britain would need a large garrison of the region. It would be more a token to demonstate Britain's formal control over the area as the main threat would come to the American heartland along the coast if they pushed Britain too far. The Indians would suffer somewhat under such circumstances but far less than they did OTL will full-scale invasions and would also very likely be much better armed as under those conditions Britain would sell them weapons for the purpose. Also I would see it as likely that at least some of the westerners, fed up of the blodshed, with plenty of land available, would seek to rein in their own extremists. The southern Indians could however suffer earlier attack and deportation. [Possibly to the British Indian Territory or whatever southern Canada was called, potentially boosting its defence further].

Don't forget in the war your describing both side are having problems moving forces to the front and maintaining them there. In the 1783 scenario the border would be a bit nearer the US core but also Britain would have a much stronger domination of the Lakes, which is the key to moving forces in large parts of the area.


Sure, the US is sending out peace feelers, but their basic position is they (domestically) need a deal that IMPROVES on the status quo ante. Given the Brits are (iTTL) kicking their butts, the Brits really have NO interest in those kind of terms. If the US offered Michigan, Wisconsin and Minnesota in exchange for peace, the Brits would fall over themselves to backstab their Indian allies and make peace, but there is no way, none, that the US would even CONSIDER those terms at the moment. The US KNOWS they have a far larger population than Canada does, and if they can just get their act together, they can march into Canada and take whatever they want. Unfortunately for them, that's not possible (politically, economically and organizationally). Besides, Britain is distracted (understatement) by the Napoleonic wars and they are (at the moment) feeding almost no extra troops into the conflict.
So basically the US is tied by its internal politics to upping the ante. Not very good for them if its not resolved by the time Bomey goes under.

Wow. Thanks
No problem. Its an excellent and as I said a very detailed and proffesionally researched TL. Deserves all the praise its getting.

Steve
 
The way I see it is that any such settlers are doing so illegally and hence can legitimately be run off the territory. Since I would expect that most would be farmers that means their in a settled position with assets - crops, tools, some sort of house etc. This makes them easier to locate that say wandering hunters and also the destruction-compensation of those assets would hurt economically. Similarly if a few get killed resisting arrest and deportation so what. This will mean there's a significant deterrent to such incursions.

True large elements in the US will complain bitterly. Given conditions and racial views at the time, even if the Indians behaved impectably there will be claims of massacres and attrocities. However this can also work in the Indians favour. The US built but an image of the Indians as brutal savages, in part probably to excuse their own behaviour towards them. However in the OTL 1812 conflict this often worked against the US because a number of times British forces were able to presuade much larger US ones to surrender under the threat of if it comes to fighting we can't control our Indian allies. Similarly, in the discussed post-1783 scenario, I could see a lot of would be settlers discouraged from any such invasions.

Also OTL the US was able ultimately, to call in the army to crush Indian resistance to encroachment. This however was often difficult and costly and in the scenario proposed means a clear armed invasion of British territory. This is going to be very risky for the young state given its dependence on trade with Britain and also, until the Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars really take off, very vulnerable to a short sharp shock of counter attacks on its coastlines.

As such, while I could see clashes and probably cross border raids from both sides, I don't think Britain would need a large garrison of the region. It would be more a token to demonstate Britain's formal control over the area as the main threat would come to the American heartland along the coast if they pushed Britain too far. The Indians would suffer somewhat under such circumstances but far less than they did OTL will full-scale invasions and would also very likely be much better armed as under those conditions Britain would sell them weapons for the purpose. Also I would see it as likely that at least some of the westerners, fed up of the blodshed, with plenty of land available, would seek to rein in their own extremists. The southern Indians could however suffer earlier attack and deportation. [Possibly to the British Indian Territory or whatever southern Canada was called, potentially boosting its defence further].

Couple of problems. One: would the two sides be able to read each others intentions? IOTL in 1812, the leadership of the US seemed convinced that declaring war would show Britain how serious they were, and that the Brits would immediately cave in. And we all know how well that worked!

Two: how much control does the US have over its own people. If Indians kick honest law-abiding (OK, not really, but that's what the newspapers say) white people off the land they worked so hard for, [insert generic atrocity stories], there WILL be some reaction. Whether it's militia under a governor's authorization, or regular military under someone like Andy Jackson, or just vigilante raiders, I can not imagine the lack of an armed US response. If it is vigilantes, and the government arrests them, can they get a jury of their (frontiersmen) peers to convict them? Look how well US citizens respected the laws of Mexico when they settled in Texas...

Three: let's suppose push comes to shove. How hard is Britain really prepared to push to defend an Indian protectorate? My guess is not very. IOTL, the demand for the protectorate was the very first thing to be dropped in the peace negotiations.

As I keep saying, I don't believe it's possible, I couldn't do that TL. If you think it is, and think you can make it work, all power to you, go ahead and make that TL. I'll certainly read it.
 
Blehh... Got far enough into the TL that I'm tripping over myself. Have to create a timeline, figure how many troops are available, and where. Bleh. Should have done this as I went along, obviously. Oh well, this is all a learning experience!
 
Recruitment 1st half 1813

Recruitment 1st half 1813



Note that the increased victories of OTL enhearten the population. Many Anglos were pretty unenthusiastic about the war, and even thought it would be lost anyway, so why bother. Here, they're on what they now perceive to be a winning side, not a losing one; the community leaders can see that the French community is going to have a lot more clout after the war, if the Anglos don't step up to the plate, so they push for more turnout; and the burning of York galvanizes some.​

So, 1000 more militia raised in the winter time, mostly among Anglos in UC (ready, after some training, for spring and summer campaigns); and 1000 in the summer after York (ready for a fall or winter campaign). Even stay-at-homes are taking the 'home-guard' emergency defence drills more seriously. Of these cohorts, about half are available on a semi-permanent basis, and about half only for 'surges' (i.e. they need to go home for spring planting and fall harvest).​

In Lower Canada, calls for recruitment are starting to be heeded for some of the same reasons. 2K join up in the winter and 3K after York. Note, a Roman Catholic church was burnt in York (ATL – there are more Catholics in York than OTL). In actual fact, it was just part of the random arson of the burning of York, but which the French and Canadiens believe was a deliberate profanation by Protestant American soldiers, and the very lawlessness of the sacking means the US government can't even begin to prove otherwise. This is a VERY effective propaganda tool for whipping up the devout Canadiens in Quebec. Again, half of these men are available for long-term service (garrisons, etc.), half only for surges.​

Mind you, it's a good thing that all these men are available, because most of them will be needed!​
 
Naval/coastal action 1813

I'm afraid I'm working on my pieces slightly out of order. Once I get more of 1813 written up there will probably be a whole lot of posting at once.



Naval/coastal action 1813
conflict is very similar to OTL, Cockburn and Cochrane raid and burn in Chesapeake Bay and institute a blockade over part of the coast. Negroes are used as local guides, enabling more effective British attacks, and in return, negros are allowed to escape with the British forces. While they are encouraged to join the army and navy, few do. Cochrane has to figure out what to do with them, as few colonies (especially the close ones) want more blacks. The raiders are, however, strictly prohibited from trying to raise black rebellion.​

While considerable damage was done to various towns, the primary effect was the effectiveness of the blockade. Essentially no imports or exports happened from New England down to Georgia. Even coasting trade was impeded and the substitution of wagons for ships massively increased costs. Sugar was $9/hundredweight in New Orleans, and $40 in New York. Coffee more than doubled in price. All this as OTL.​

Various naval actions at sea, are about the same. The Essex wreaks havoc in the Pacific, various privateers make trade around England hazardous, etc. Again as OTL.​
 
Retcon: fixing the state of Sackett's harbor


Retcon: fixing the state of Sackett's harbor


It turns out that there were some 15,000 people in Jefferson County (the one that contains Sackett's Harbor). That means a rather larger support base than I had initially figured on. OTOH. If the patrols (collecting food and arms) have a radius of 30 miles, that's going to seriously dent the productive capacity of the area. Of course, with that big a radius, they're not going to get nearly as much of the food stores, and probably won't even make much of an effort to destroy crops that far out. OT3H, there will more people rounded up as 'armed combatants' some of whom will eventually have to be switched to the 'innocent civilian' category, as the Brits will be having trouble dealing with the ones who actually threatened them (not just 'possessed arms that should have been turned in').​

OT4H, if the crop destruction and food collection is pretty thorough in, say a 10 mile radius, that will leave a huge burden on the surviving population. There will NOT be death marches of scarecrows arriving in Albany (say) from Sackett's (as my original post suggested), but for 1813 and until harvest in 1814, the area will still be struggling to support its own, and won't have any extra supply for any troops. Thus the logistics problem for the military is essentially the same.​

Note that the Brits may well miss some of those farms and population. Thus they think they've struck a blow almost as hard as the original post suggested.​
 
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Relations with Indians and the Northwest, 1813


Relations with Indians and the Northwest, 1813

With the taking of Fort Meigs (Fort Bathurst, now), and then the destruction of the base at Presqu'ile, the British fall back to a largely defensive posture on Lake Erie. While they still have good use for Indian auxiliaries, especially for scouting and raiding (more on that later), they don't need the full tally they have here at the moment. Moreover, the next stage of the war in the west (making use of the NWC's call to the fur-trade natives) will be a much broader conflict. Thus Black Hawk and his western braves are encouraged to go home and lay the ground for the extended conflict in the west.​

As a token of the esteem these native leaders are held in, Black Hawk, Tecumseh and Joseph Brant are all knighted by Prevost (using his viceregal powers).​

On returning home, Black Hawk finds that a young man named Keokuk has been politicking in his absence, and gaining ground for the 'work with the Americans' party. With Black Hawk's return, the glory he has won, and the increased renown of British victories, the 'work with the British' party returns to full control. Black Hawk's political skills may be lacking, but his warlike ones are there in full measure. He circulates through neighbouring tribes, calling for a set of massed strikes as soon as the British are ready. He is pushing so hard for a unified native front that he is even heard to say 'I'd even accept an Osage!'. [Osages are the Sauk's hereditary enemies.]​

Once control of the upper lakes is assured (by the attack on Presqu'ile), men, food and supplies all start flowing west. Some are sent to Chicago for the new main British base there, some to Prairie du Chien (near where the Wisconsin river flows into the Mississippi, and where Dickson, the Indian agent has his base), and some to Makinac (Michilimackinac), where McDouall has been holding the fort with only a small handful of men.​

Some of the men march across the Chicago Road to Chicago, other travel in boats and ships with the supplies. Because of the amount that needs to be carried, much of it actually shipped in bateaux which have been built all along the shores of the lake over the winter. It would, of course, be more efficient to use ships, but the demand for shipping has increased massively, and some of the ships that had existed were converted into warships. All told, some 1000 regulars and longterm militia are sent west.​

Once men reach Chicago, they rebuild forts and start work on improving the portage from the Chicago river to the Illinois. Obviously, they'd prefer to have a canal so boats and ships could travel directly between the two, but that is off in the future [OTL's Sanitary and Ship Canal]. Still, the relatively short portage involved, and the improvement of the road, means that the Brits will be able to project force down the Illinois almost as if it were a direct water connexion. And, note that, on the Illinois, the British only have to row their bateaux a few miles up river, then it's all downstream from there, whereas the Americans have to row upstream all the way from St. Louis.​

Again, the presence, in a visible and growing way, of the British forces enheartens the pro-British factions, and discourages the pro-American ones. Of course the 'white man go away and leave us alone' faction is in deep depression, but they were essentially living in a fantasy world, anyway [unfortunately].​

The first combined British/Indian operation is an advance down the Illinois river and establishing a fort (named Fort Prevost) at Peoria. [Ninian Edwards, the governor of Illinois territory, had attacked the village there last fall, believing that the trading community was pushing the local Indians into the British fold. As it happens, at least one of the traders was actually an agent of the US government, and presented papers to that effect. The officer in charge called the papers forgeries, and hauled him off with the others to jail. The remaining Indians fled north to Saukenuk, and Edwards did more damage than help to the US cause by this action. OTL, in 1814 he sets up Fort Clark on the site, but iTTL the British have beaten him to the draw. ]​


Battle of Burnt Corn

Meanwhile, down south, the British have provided more arms and ammunition to the Spanish at Pensacola, so when the first batch of Red Stick [i.e. anti-US] Creek Indians arrive there with a note from British authorities in Upper Canada [OTL!], they are presented with all the arms they can carry on their pack horses. They are still attacked near Burnt Corn by a US force coming out of Ft Mims, but iTTL when they re-attack, they get far more of their supplies back. The better results, and greater encouragement means they go back sooner and more often, and thus the Red Sticks are better armed in the coming conflict. [Late July 1813]​

 
Dathi

Looking good for Canada. Moblising to secure the disputed but important regions. The assistance to the Indians will not only help them be better able to resist the Americans and win their support but also deepen the divide, with elements of US opinion becoming more hostile to peace, at least with the virtually inevitable British/Indians gains. As such you could well get a longer war and deeper divide post-war, which as I've said is I believe very useful for the stronger Canada you want. Looking forward to reading more.

Just a quick question. Are we assuming no butterflies outside N America for the moment?

Steve
 
Just a quick question. Are we assuming no butterflies outside N America for the moment?
Basically. I don't see any reason for major butterflies so far, and, to be blunt, it's a lot easier if you can say 'X was at place Y at time Z' OTL, so I'll have him be there iTTL. Not all the royalist recruits were sent to Canada, and some probably returned when the peace failed in '03 (or was it '02?). So the Brits might be doing a touch better on land in Europe, but that's not something where a few thousand here or there make a big difference.

There will be differences after the war, but mostly, no. If you can think of reasonable changes, I'll sure listen, but I'm focussing on North America.
 
Basically. I don't see any reason for major butterflies so far, and, to be blunt, it's a lot easier if you can say 'X was at place Y at time Z' OTL, so I'll have him be there iTTL. Not all the royalist recruits were sent to Canada, and some probably returned when the peace failed in '03 (or was it '02?). So the Brits might be doing a touch better on land in Europe, but that's not something where a few thousand here or there make a big difference.

There will be differences after the war, but mostly, no. If you can think of reasonable changes, I'll sure listen, but I'm focussing on North America.

Dathi

Nothing come to mind but butterflies could easily occur. Doubt the greater success will distract British attention to the vital conflict against Napoleon, which is now reaching its height with the 1813 campaign. However if some minor tweak could occur it might have some impact. As you say, fairly unlikely that anything would be greatly different at this stage and simpiler to assume everything stays the same.

The 1st point that might be likely to trigger a major change is probably that, if the N American war is still ongoing then and probably enlarged, Britain might have less forces and influence in Europe if/when Boney comes back from Elba and has his 100 days. Which is only likely to have any real significance if some tweak meant that we lost at Waterloo and he goes down shortly afterwards to the Russian and Austrian armies arriving from the east. Or if events in N America and Iberia interact on internal Spanish politics and their situation in Florida. [Say a weaker US due to the worse war means the Spanish feel they can hold it against US encroachment, or alternatively a US embittered by defeat looks for an easier target to vent some frustration and a war develops over Florida]. Something like either of those could have big events around the world as well as in N America.

Steve
 
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