Napoleon's Victory [LONG]
- Thread starter Zach
- Start date
Apologies for the width of the map:
how will prussia be dismembered?
LittleSpeer
Monthly Donor
thanks so much for makeing a map like the last war. it really helps put everything together in a shorter version.
Update
Nice work on the update. It was refreshing to see evil Russia win it's territories. Might we have an update on military science and technology next time?
Nice work on the update. It was refreshing to see evil Russia win it's territories. Might we have an update on military science and technology next time?
Yes, but Greece only fight against the Ottoman Empire which lacks african territories.
Why did Russia not forced the Ottoman Empire to recognize the independence of Ottoman Arabia except Antiochia and surrounding areas if the Ottoman Empire will not able to regain the control of most Ottoman Arabia anyway?
The russian decision only makes sense if the Ottoman Empire can regain the control of Ottoman Arabia.
Oh, no.
The Prussians really deserve it.
I hope that Germany gets as much Prussian lands as possible.
Who will rule the new German territories?
Firstly, this is a great timeline - one of the best here - and I enjoyed reading it over my long lurker period here. I'm going to try (lots of emphasis on try - never done this before) to offer some constructive criticism on the timeline.
Throw rocks at me if I'm asking stupid questions. As a newbie I expect it
Anyway, I'll limit this to the last couple of posts - my first question is about the French Navy. You say in one of the sections on the Japanese War that the French are 'stretched globally'.
How?
Russia's navy is small and weak (as well as bottled up) and Prussia's negligible fleet was banned at Copenhagen - and Sweden's navy I don't imagine to be exactly a world leader. So what is the world's largest navy doing exactly, if its presence in the Far East is also limited?
That leads me onto my second point - the Swedish invasion of Iceland in 1937 seems - a little...over ambitious to me.
To do this, it seems that Sweden would have to at some point plough it’s small fleet through the Skagerrak from it's major Baltic bases - complete with lumbering merchant shipping to transport troops to Iceland, either from the Norwegian theatre, or from Sweden proper. The Skagerrak straight is barely 150k across at most, and I'm sure that if the French admiralty had anything about them the whole place would have been mined in the (two?) years since the outbreak of war with Sweden, with more than a few Sous-Marines lurking in the area as well. And then, there's the potential of French air cover operating out of Denmark - and then on top of that the massive French fleet which must surely have a significant presence right off France's own Northern Coastline.
And then the fleet has to actually reach Iceland, which is a bloody long way.
I'm not saying it's implausible to send it - Lund is clearly utterly mental - but it seems to me that the whole operation would quickly turn into the death ride of the RSN. Unless I'm missing something obvious, which is probably likely...
My other point relates to Japan -
Why do they divert such large resources to attack the isolated Sandwich Islands - which seem remote from Japan's main targets in Indochina and the East Indies? What do they gain by launching such a large attack in the central pacific? The main threat to Japanese dominance in the East is surely the Chinese Navy (who they must plan to confront at some point) - wouldn't it be more sensible to have the 'surprise' Pearl-Harbour-esque attack fall on the Silver and Gold fleets - rather than the distant and small Royal Naval squadron at Pearl? Or was Japan hoping that China wouldn’t intervene militarily when they attacked Indochina?
And finally, the Polish theatre.
Poland seems to be very isolated for a very long time (mid 1935 to late 1936?) - though the Poles are obviously relatively well equipped and very determined - can Poland support its war effort, on an economic level, against Prussia and Russia (even if Russia isn't really trying), alone, for that long? Poland lacks oil, and its natural reserves of coal and copper are located mainly in areas near to the Prussian border (and therefore would be first to fall into enemy hands) - Poland also almost totally lacks indigenous supplies of iron ore (I think). In the trench/fortress warfare you describe consumption of ammunition would be absolutly massive - so how is Poland supplying it's armies without raw materials? And feeding them come to think of it, with such a desperate battle going on (and with them losing lots of agricultural territory in the process) and no doubt sucking in every avaliable man?
The obvious answer would be supply on a massive scale from France/Germany via neutral Austria - but that doesn't sound like something that your Switzerland-like Austria would do...not with all the problems it would cause with Russia/Prussia/Sweden.
Anyway, I know I've gone on too long when I start to answer my own questions....
Throw rocks at me if I'm asking stupid questions. As a newbie I expect it
Anyway, I'll limit this to the last couple of posts - my first question is about the French Navy. You say in one of the sections on the Japanese War that the French are 'stretched globally'.
How?
Russia's navy is small and weak (as well as bottled up) and Prussia's negligible fleet was banned at Copenhagen - and Sweden's navy I don't imagine to be exactly a world leader. So what is the world's largest navy doing exactly, if its presence in the Far East is also limited?
That leads me onto my second point - the Swedish invasion of Iceland in 1937 seems - a little...over ambitious to me.
To do this, it seems that Sweden would have to at some point plough it’s small fleet through the Skagerrak from it's major Baltic bases - complete with lumbering merchant shipping to transport troops to Iceland, either from the Norwegian theatre, or from Sweden proper. The Skagerrak straight is barely 150k across at most, and I'm sure that if the French admiralty had anything about them the whole place would have been mined in the (two?) years since the outbreak of war with Sweden, with more than a few Sous-Marines lurking in the area as well. And then, there's the potential of French air cover operating out of Denmark - and then on top of that the massive French fleet which must surely have a significant presence right off France's own Northern Coastline.
And then the fleet has to actually reach Iceland, which is a bloody long way.
I'm not saying it's implausible to send it - Lund is clearly utterly mental - but it seems to me that the whole operation would quickly turn into the death ride of the RSN. Unless I'm missing something obvious, which is probably likely...
My other point relates to Japan -
Why do they divert such large resources to attack the isolated Sandwich Islands - which seem remote from Japan's main targets in Indochina and the East Indies? What do they gain by launching such a large attack in the central pacific? The main threat to Japanese dominance in the East is surely the Chinese Navy (who they must plan to confront at some point) - wouldn't it be more sensible to have the 'surprise' Pearl-Harbour-esque attack fall on the Silver and Gold fleets - rather than the distant and small Royal Naval squadron at Pearl? Or was Japan hoping that China wouldn’t intervene militarily when they attacked Indochina?
And finally, the Polish theatre.
Poland seems to be very isolated for a very long time (mid 1935 to late 1936?) - though the Poles are obviously relatively well equipped and very determined - can Poland support its war effort, on an economic level, against Prussia and Russia (even if Russia isn't really trying), alone, for that long? Poland lacks oil, and its natural reserves of coal and copper are located mainly in areas near to the Prussian border (and therefore would be first to fall into enemy hands) - Poland also almost totally lacks indigenous supplies of iron ore (I think). In the trench/fortress warfare you describe consumption of ammunition would be absolutly massive - so how is Poland supplying it's armies without raw materials? And feeding them come to think of it, with such a desperate battle going on (and with them losing lots of agricultural territory in the process) and no doubt sucking in every avaliable man?
The obvious answer would be supply on a massive scale from France/Germany via neutral Austria - but that doesn't sound like something that your Switzerland-like Austria would do...not with all the problems it would cause with Russia/Prussia/Sweden.
Anyway, I know I've gone on too long when I start to answer my own questions....
Last edited:
Titus_Pullo
Banned
Yes I'm glad Prussia will be raped and dismembered. Its always been a thorn on the side of France since Napoleon I.
Apologies for the width of the map:
Great update, Zach
and a cool map! The Ankara treaty will be the source of futher wars.
LittleSpeer
Monthly Donor
Need.......More........INFORMATION!!! yes i know your busy with the best times of your life but the weekends are so boring with little to read!
Once again, many apologies for the delay in posting here. It's funny how when you go to college you'd expect to have more free time but that is not the case. I've taken all these interesting classes that make me want to change certain aspects of the timeline, especially one class I'm on called "African Encounters with Colonialism". At a later date, I would very much like to elaborate on Africa since it is sorely looked over in not just my TL, but nearly everyone's!
Now, to answer questions very belatedly.
Not necessarily, they are greedy little devils!
There is hope among the higher-ups in Russia that the Ottomans can quell the Arab revolters and keep the Arabs from uniting into a single state. By keeping the Ottomans in charge, Arab unification is going to be difficult, if not likely. The squabbling between the Ottomans and Arabs will also increase Russian influence in the area, as one side may contact Russian for help against the other. Thus, it is a win-win for Russia.
Well, first welcome to the boards and thank you very much for your constructive criticism. I will do my best to answer your questions!
The French navy is indeed the most significant international naval force. However, it is forced to be all over the world because of its broad holdings in Europe, Africa, Asia and the Pacific. There are only X amount of ships the French navy has and although it is the largest international naval power, France had little reason to continually expand their fleet after the Great War - its enemies were defeated and it thought it would reign supreme. However, as tensions rise between them and especially Russia and Japan, it is forced to be "stretched globally". Think of all the areas French ships must be to maintain order and peace for its significant merchant fleet - the coastline of France on the Atlantic and the Channel, the entire Mediterranean (thanks to their holdings in Cyprus), all over Africa, Arabia, East Asia and some outlying Pacific islands.
While the main concentration of ships may be, of course, in Europe and East Asia it is still "stretched globally" against enemies or potential enemies. In the 1930s, Britain was not a for sure friend. They had just fought France three decades before and if Britain had joined the Japanese and Russia, the French navy would have been quite screwed. It was not until Japan attacked both the French and the British did they become secure allies and France could turn its naval attention to Japan.
You raise some excellent points. I cannot justify it except with luck and the following explanation: the landings were conducted by 15,000 men which requires let's say twenty large merchant ships packed to capacity. As the Swedes gain North Sea coastline on the Norwegian coast by conquest and probably a port city or two, such as Molde for example, then they move troops to the coastline. Meanwhile, these troop transports move from Sweden (not at once though, it is a gradual process), through the thin straits with lots of luck, and then to Norway where they are hidden more or less in fjords. When the time comes and all the ships are ready, the 15,000 men are loaded and ferried to Iceland. Naval support will also be ferried to Norway from Sweden gradually and with luck.
Of course this raises the point that such an operation would probably be dedicated, hence my explanation of gradual luck. Of course a ship or two or three was most likely lost, but the majority made it Norway and from there to Iceland they needed more luck to not be detected.
Shoddy explanation, I'm sorry. It was a bold operation and indeed Lund is a lunatic but the point of the campaign is just to demonstrate his overly ambitious, not-very-practical aims. I believe I showed that!
The Japanese conquer the Sandwich Islands to rid the British Empire and the Royal Navy of its major outlet in the Pacific (ignoring Australia and New Zealand whose own navies cannot compare to the IJN). The conquest of the Sandwich Islands provides a "first line of defense" against any other excursion toward Japan from the east. It is not likely that the Japanese thought the Chinese would sit this fight out; they were just very ambitious and a little cocky. I did not specify in the passage but the Japanese naval force in this campaign particularly was not very large; it was mainly a significant transport fleet that held the 150,000 soldiers that were to land on the islands. Japan figured it would beat up on the Chinese navy again and again, as they had in many instances in the past. They had little idea that these mainlanders would create a significantly more modern navy since their last war a few years before.
This is a doozy of a question and I admit my knowledge of Polish natural resources is nil. I can answer you with the following (poor) explanation: in the interwar years there is no doubt that Poland had an absolutely massive arsenal. Surrounded by enemies in the last war and conquered, the Poles were determined to not let that happen again. Even without Austria, they were more or less surrounded so as extreme right-wing groups gained power in neighboring Prussia and Russia, the Poles increased their stockpiles of weapons, ammunition and general munitions as greatly as possible. Significant percentages of the national budget were spent on stockpiling weapons. Poland spent more % on GDP on military than any other country. In addition, it was aided by France before the war started.
Now, as the war dragged on and those stockpiles diminished, it became difficult to feed the army and it was a dire situation; starvation was common for civilians and the military. Pets were eaten, horses were eaten, cannibalism was not non-existent. But the massive supplies of weapons were enough to hold their enemies back until the French were able to give them more in late 1936. While Allied airdrops were common, they were by no means able to sustain the entire Polish nation. It was a very difficult time, and if the intense planning of the prewar period was less intense, Poland would have been conquered.
Now, to answer questions very belatedly.
Grand Prince Paul II said:
Not necessarily, they are greedy little devils!
Grand Prince Paul II said:
There is hope among the higher-ups in Russia that the Ottomans can quell the Arab revolters and keep the Arabs from uniting into a single state. By keeping the Ottomans in charge, Arab unification is going to be difficult, if not likely. The squabbling between the Ottomans and Arabs will also increase Russian influence in the area, as one side may contact Russian for help against the other. Thus, it is a win-win for Russia.
Red Jack said:
Well, first welcome to the boards and thank you very much for your constructive criticism. I will do my best to answer your questions!
The French navy is indeed the most significant international naval force. However, it is forced to be all over the world because of its broad holdings in Europe, Africa, Asia and the Pacific. There are only X amount of ships the French navy has and although it is the largest international naval power, France had little reason to continually expand their fleet after the Great War - its enemies were defeated and it thought it would reign supreme. However, as tensions rise between them and especially Russia and Japan, it is forced to be "stretched globally". Think of all the areas French ships must be to maintain order and peace for its significant merchant fleet - the coastline of France on the Atlantic and the Channel, the entire Mediterranean (thanks to their holdings in Cyprus), all over Africa, Arabia, East Asia and some outlying Pacific islands.
While the main concentration of ships may be, of course, in Europe and East Asia it is still "stretched globally" against enemies or potential enemies. In the 1930s, Britain was not a for sure friend. They had just fought France three decades before and if Britain had joined the Japanese and Russia, the French navy would have been quite screwed. It was not until Japan attacked both the French and the British did they become secure allies and France could turn its naval attention to Japan.
Red Jack said:
You raise some excellent points. I cannot justify it except with luck and the following explanation: the landings were conducted by 15,000 men which requires let's say twenty large merchant ships packed to capacity. As the Swedes gain North Sea coastline on the Norwegian coast by conquest and probably a port city or two, such as Molde for example, then they move troops to the coastline. Meanwhile, these troop transports move from Sweden (not at once though, it is a gradual process), through the thin straits with lots of luck, and then to Norway where they are hidden more or less in fjords. When the time comes and all the ships are ready, the 15,000 men are loaded and ferried to Iceland. Naval support will also be ferried to Norway from Sweden gradually and with luck.
Of course this raises the point that such an operation would probably be dedicated, hence my explanation of gradual luck. Of course a ship or two or three was most likely lost, but the majority made it Norway and from there to Iceland they needed more luck to not be detected.
Shoddy explanation, I'm sorry. It was a bold operation and indeed Lund is a lunatic but the point of the campaign is just to demonstrate his overly ambitious, not-very-practical aims. I believe I showed that!
Red Jack said:
The Japanese conquer the Sandwich Islands to rid the British Empire and the Royal Navy of its major outlet in the Pacific (ignoring Australia and New Zealand whose own navies cannot compare to the IJN). The conquest of the Sandwich Islands provides a "first line of defense" against any other excursion toward Japan from the east. It is not likely that the Japanese thought the Chinese would sit this fight out; they were just very ambitious and a little cocky. I did not specify in the passage but the Japanese naval force in this campaign particularly was not very large; it was mainly a significant transport fleet that held the 150,000 soldiers that were to land on the islands. Japan figured it would beat up on the Chinese navy again and again, as they had in many instances in the past. They had little idea that these mainlanders would create a significantly more modern navy since their last war a few years before.
Red Jack said:
This is a doozy of a question and I admit my knowledge of Polish natural resources is nil. I can answer you with the following (poor) explanation: in the interwar years there is no doubt that Poland had an absolutely massive arsenal. Surrounded by enemies in the last war and conquered, the Poles were determined to not let that happen again. Even without Austria, they were more or less surrounded so as extreme right-wing groups gained power in neighboring Prussia and Russia, the Poles increased their stockpiles of weapons, ammunition and general munitions as greatly as possible. Significant percentages of the national budget were spent on stockpiling weapons. Poland spent more % on GDP on military than any other country. In addition, it was aided by France before the war started.
Now, as the war dragged on and those stockpiles diminished, it became difficult to feed the army and it was a dire situation; starvation was common for civilians and the military. Pets were eaten, horses were eaten, cannibalism was not non-existent. But the massive supplies of weapons were enough to hold their enemies back until the French were able to give them more in late 1936. While Allied airdrops were common, they were by no means able to sustain the entire Polish nation. It was a very difficult time, and if the intense planning of the prewar period was less intense, Poland would have been conquered.
Explanation in the last update!
Two notes:
1.
The first two marked sentences partly contradict each other.
I recommend more specification (Russia annex the Caucasian and European Black Sea coast up to Thrace and an area around Trebizond, the Neo-Byzantine country include the remaining Anatolian Black Sea shoreline, Thrace & Marmara and most of the southern Anatolian coast)
2.
The Ottoman Empire is too big and control (most of) central Asia Minor which actually belongs to the Neo-Byzantine country.
BUMP!!!!!! When is the next update here gonna be, Zach? It's been a real long time now. Really curious to know what happens next, I hope you wrote a little something about postwar Russia, Byzantium and the Balkans. What happens there? Anyway, I'm rootin' for you at the Turtledoves!
It's been a real long time now. Really curious to know what happens next, I hope you wrote a little something about postwar Russia, Byzantium and the Balkans. What happens there? Anyway, I'm rootin' for you at the Turtledoves! Zach first of all I have to say I'm a huge fan of this TL, unfortunately I just recently read it and was not able to vote fro it at the Turtledoves but would have.
I am trying to start my own true TL and was wondering if you could share on how you managed to make the animated maps, which needless to say are awesome.
If this is a trademarked secret I can understand so dont worry about it but thanks as well for sharing the brilliant TL.
I am trying to start my own true TL and was wondering if you could share on how you managed to make the animated maps, which needless to say are awesome.
If this is a trademarked secret I can understand so dont worry about it but thanks as well for sharing the brilliant TL.