Space Shuttle Wank

The Russian Space shuttle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buran_program was finished.
The Proposed French http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermes_(shuttle) and Japanese http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HOPE-X shuttles where created. How does this change to history of space "exploration"?

And besides the ISS being already finished, all of the space powers would now have a nice fleet of decent orbiter spacecraft. But, with ESA and JAXA, it needs some more believable background. The first real spaceship for any practical work purposes built by ESA is the recent ATV Jules Verne. It's an unmanned re-supplying vehicle, much like the Russian Progress. Before building any shuttles, I think you would need a POD to allow these simpler unmanned ships, then concentrate on the spaceplanes. You also need a new generation of heavy-duty Ariane rockets to get all that hardware into orbit. A sattelite or space probe weighs a lot less than a mini-shuttle or ATV...

Seeing the Buran and Hermes shuttles finished would be awesome. But, mind you, spaceplanes still need a lot of finance, so if the European economy won't be ready to support the daring ESA plans, I doubt, that Hermes will materialise. It did not in OTL, although it was planned during the Cold War, when geopolitical and economic relations were different. If proposed in the 1990s or recently, maybe it would get it's chance. I still believe Europe will build a similiar spaceplane sometime in the future, but it will take a few years and depend on the progress of other space programmes worldwide. The Russians are still working on their Clipper project, which is meant to replace the Soyuz and act as a simpler, smaller version of Buran. The orbiter looks like a small spaceplane.
 
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ESA Hermes
already in 1968 was a Hermes like glider proposed for ELDO/ESRO

Its start back in 1977 as X-20 like glider (15 tons) for 6 Astonauts or 4.5 Tons Payload
under french CNES
http://www.capcomespace.net/dossiers/espace_europeen/hermes/1981 hermes 02.jpg
http://www.capcomespace.net/dossiers/espace_europeen/hermes/1981 hermes.jpg

launch by a Ariane 4 or Ariane 5
in 1977 the Ariane 5 was Ariane 4 with Lox/Lh2 upperstage and Liquid Booster

until 1986 Hermes grew bigger and became a French Space Shuttle
with payloadbay with Robotarm for puting Satellites in Orbit
Ariane 5 design was change to rocket we know. first launch planed for 1992
http://www.capcomespace.net/dossiers/espace_europeen/hermes/1985 dassault 07.jpg
http://www.capcomespace.net/dossiers/espace_europeen/hermes/1985 structure 02.jpg
http://www.capcomespace.net/dossiers/espace_europeen/hermes/1985 comparatif.jpg

then happen Challenger

and the French had to change Hermes drastically
the Cockpit became Rescue Module in case the Rocket explode
http://www.capcomespace.net/dossiers/espace_europeen/hermes/1987 03.jpg
http://www.capcomespace.net/dossiers/espace_europeen/hermes/1987 12.jpg
http://www.capcomespace.net/dossiers/espace_europeen/hermes/1988 05.jpg
but with a heavy price, reduction to 3 men crew and Payload !

Ariane 5 had to change again for heavyer Hermes 25 tons

1987 was beginn of drastic changes at Hermes
the payload bay disappears from design, a conical Module replace it
http://www.capcomespace.net/dossiers/espace_europeen/hermes/1989 03.jpg
http://www.capcomespace.net/dossiers/espace_europeen/hermes/1989 04.jpg
http://www.capcomespace.net/dossiers/espace_europeen/hermes/1989 06.jpg
another problem was weigth, it take bizzar Ideas
like the crew had to made EVA to recover the motors of Robotic arms and other parts
bevor the Payload module is dropt
Hermes became a official program of ESA

in 1990 the Rescue Module is dropt in favor for Soviet ejectionseats of Buran shuttle !
in same time French speaks of Hermes flight to MIR space station.
http://www.capcomespace.net/dossiers/espace_europeen/hermes/1990 01.JPG
http://www.capcomespace.net/dossiers/espace_europeen/hermes/1990 02.jpg

in 1991 the world changed considerably
ESA put a one year stop on Hermes program, to look how it affect Europe spacefight.

at last in 1992 the first parts of Hemes are Tested, the Nosecone of Heatshield
note: in orginal plan Hermes first launch was in 1992
Russia and ESA take talks for joinventure for Hermes and MIR-2 station

but its fate is sealed. over 10 year over time, cost overrun.
Hermes became balast for ESA
Germany had his problem with Reunification
French goverment wanted to chancel the Program
during october 1993
ESA chanceld Hermes and give order to development of ATV

Thats short version of Hermes

so WI ?
that CNES stay on orginal plan X-20 like glider and not "French version of Space Shuttle"
build ejectionseats in first place and ESA take the program around 1978
that had save the program.... i think
 
An interesting what if for a European spaceplane would be if a launcher had been designed with common cores similar to the US Delta, a 'Heavy' version, lets say with three cores as in Delta V Heavy could launch the spaceplane while a single core using the existing SRB's and LRB''s could handle the day to day commercial satellite launches??

How about designing the 'Common Cores' such that they can be attached to a much larger central core as in Energia or Energia-M?
 
Hermes and similar small crew launch vehicles maybe have a reason to exist. As for Shuttle. Russians were scratching their heads as what was USA trying to pull, as they fully understood in early '70es that shuttle would cost much more than NASA and friends presented to congers and public, and that throw away rockets were going to be most economic for foreseeable future.
Only way to say "Buran" continues is a commercial use of Energia-M to pay the bills (less than LOT hard feelings between Russia and Ukraine post 1991?), and even then it would be too expensive to fly more than once in a year or two. Realistically you can try and keep Energia running.
Can EU justify and pay for development of a manned space flight vehicle in late '80es? Both total costs and per flight costs of Hermes would have been much lower than STS, but maybe still to high for ESA. And it wont fly until Arianne 5 is flown and debugged... so nothing before 1995. or 1996. Is it worth it when you can buy a seat on shuttle.
And for Hope... You have to either avoid or lessen that Japanese econ bubble collapse for them to be able to develop H-2 into something safe enough to launch people with.

OK a guesstimate of a timeline.

Theft and corruption of Yeltsin years are not as bad as OTL. Maybe constitutional crisis of 1993. ends with Yeltsin out of power, AND somehow allows for real democracy to develop. Economy is healthier, smaller versions of Energia revived and flown... Maybe by late '90es they have money to fly Buran again.
Though for Russians, best chance is MAKS, http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/maks.htm
Much better than Buran (as in, much more practical and easier to realize and fly without ending broke)
Japanese housing bubble doesn’t crash as bad as in OTL, they have more money to fly and test H-2, start Hope development by late '90es, first flights in early double zero years.



To have a wanky spaceflight ATL you have to have a POD in late '60es or early '70es. At least completely different USA politics and economics trough late '80es and early '90es. Best hope would be giving more development money so you get original two stage fully reusable crew and small cargo launcher space shuttle. That doesn’t become the "beast that ate the budget" as esteemed Mr. Pournelle put it. EU and USSR follow suite, much more done in space in '80es, in '90es free market starts getting into space.

Though for example I disagree that SSX was any more doable in '90es, especially that it had any chances to be cheap enough to change the world.
For the time being, reusable is so much expensive than throw away (for space launch purposes) that even if you got a working SSTO, it would much more likely be more maintenance and ground personal intensive, and ergo more expensive, than space shuttle.

(now, a very wanky space ATL, move to other thread if needed)

IMHO, best of possible worlds. 1929 crisis and Dustbowl harder than in OTL, Americans learn a much harsher lesson. Somehow you don’t manage to earn that much money in post war Europe reconstruction (more favorable Land Lease for UK?). Golden ‘50es end up being more silver than golden, still there is enough money for space exploration close to OTL (in most ATLs you will likely have great competition with Soviets, and you have to erase both Von Braun and Korolev to completely divert space age) I'm asking for this as to get vox populi to side with Carter's rationalizations (and rationings :p) of economy in '70es, and people accepting a more moderate sustainable vision of life, also life is hard enough that extreme radical enviromentalism never gets enough supporters as its even more divorced from real life than in OTL.


Saturn V developed to be slightly cheaper than in OTL. Lower payload, one launch of SatV plus a SatB with fuel or crew. Maybe Apollo program cut after 13, but keep refining Sat V and B, and keep Apollo applications. Earlier Skylab, Skylab 2 flies. Tests of orbital fuel dump and a permanent one in orbit.

A harder Oil crisis than in OTL, stronger push for space solar. Now, to clarify. Yes, with any foreseeable launch costs with existing launch vehicles at this time it will be too expensive. Not even a insane person would advocate development of space solar with Delta IV, Atlas V and Proton as "heavy" launch vehicles.
With Sea Dragon launch prices… Hee hee, suddenly can be done and is smart thing to doo. Maybe solid state electronics and photovoltaic is a bit more advanced somehow in ATL than in OTL in 1973. and space solar looks more promising. NASA sees that Shuttle is bust, delays a small crew launch space plane until later notice, and government gives initiatives for investigation of things like Sea Dragon and VTOVL SSTO designs of similar size. Further oil price increase in 1979. keeps ideas alive even when Carter administration starts its decline. Crucially, NASA and DoD shift from paying to aerospace companies whatever they ask, to model where you pay only when you get a product you need an in time you need. Maybe a $10 to 20 billion X-prize equivalent to aerospace companies in ‘70es to whomever can develop a launcher with less than $1000/kg to LEO (modern dollar value)

Very heavy lift vehicles have first flights in ‘80es, things that can send a space station, or a moonbase, or Mars mission in one or two launches. By the time oil prices start dropping to old values in mid ‘80es space solar power is already in development and test articles are prepped for launch, bureaucratic inertia keeps the program rolling. Space station larger and more functional by 1990. Moonbase or Mars flight in ‘90es, as well as completion of test space solar power plant. With oil price problems of 2000es there is incentive for major development and expansion of space solar, with launch prices falling below $500/kg with continued development, major economic development of cislunar space.

Bloody hell, I really think this is as wanky as spacewank ATL can go, and you even get big bell shaped SSTOs… I’m saving this as a text file :D
 
An interesting what if for a European spaceplane would be if a launcher had been designed with common cores similar to the US Delta, a 'Heavy' version, lets say with three cores as in Delta V Heavy could launch the spaceplane while a single core using the existing SRB's and LRB''s could handle the day to day commercial satellite launches??

How about designing the 'Common Cores' such that they can be attached to a much larger central core as in Energia or Energia-M?

the Orginal Ariane 5 was this 'Common Cores'
to use core as Ariane 4 first stage
but they run into problems like Pogo and extrem length of Rocket
(4mø with up to 60 meter lenght)
http://www.capcomespace.net/dossiers/espace_europeen/ariane/ariane5/1979 concept 01.jpg

later during 1980s a new Ariane 5 desgin came
a core stage with 2 solid booster, and H10 stage from Ariane 4
for heavy payload to 15 tons use external tank H38 mounted on core stage
http://www.capcomespace.net/dossiers/espace_europeen/ariane/ariane5/1979 concept 02.jpg

but in end all was change for 25tons heavy Hermes and got the Ariane 5 we know...
 
Let's take these one at a time:

The Russian Space shuttle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buran_program was finished.

Buran was indeed flown once (unmanned), but ran into the intractable issue of the USSR dissolving. For Buran to continue after the end of the Soviet era, it would need to have become more entrenched, which means it would have needed to flown more than once. Assume a first flight in 1987, no Polyus, and at least three manned flights (presumably to Mir) by 1991.

Even then, the Russians wouldn't have had the money to continue Buran flights. The US isn't really going to help (they already have a perfectly good Shuttle), but the Europeans may be more receptive. So, the combination of earlier flights and European support _may_ allow Buran to fly into the 90's.


Hermes was quite overambitious, and too French-centered to really work long-term. For it to happen, it needed a better destination than the free-flying Columbus module. If Space Station Freedom had started before the end of the Cold War, and the Europeans were involved (which the were from the start in OTL), then I can imagine Hermes being developed for a similar role to Soyuz IOTL ISS, crew transport and rescue.

Funding Hermes, though, means no European support for Buran. So, Buran and Hermes are probably mutually exclusive.


HOPE-X was a fantasy. The only way to get to fly is to avoid the Japanese financial collapse, which takes some serious mucking around...

You forgot the American analog to Hermes and HOPE-X, HL-20! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HL-20

So, a semi-plausible shuttle-wank scenario: Freedom is not canceled, but built close to its original form (think bigger ISS, without the Russians). STS is used for construction/large resupply flights, while HL-20s and Hermes are used for crew rotation/rescue. An unmanned HTV-like craft is used by Japan for ISS resupply. The Russian scrape together enough money for a few Buran flights in the 1990's. STS is retired around 2000, replaced by a VentureStar-like SSTO for cargo.

Simon ;)
 

Riain

Banned
On top of these non US wanks you could have a US shuttle fleet of 5 or 6 orbiters and the big dumb booster variants of the Shuttle early on in the piece.

I honestly think the biggest problem for shuttles of any kind is the lack of space stations to support. So to my mind space station changes are what's needed to catalyse shuttle programmes into serious business, and the cold war is a good goad for this provided the players get in early. I'd suggest having skylab B in some shape or form, perhaps with as few as 2 apollo missions in the mid/late 70s or as many as 4 apollos and the ASTP or 2. Or even just launching it into a parking orbit for a while until the shuttle is ready, whatever way you go the US is going to have a station for the shuttle to service and a reason to exist. On the Soviet side Salyut 7 could incorporate some features of Mir from 1982, and thus need more support than Soyuz/progress could provide.
 
There other Shuttles in Europe Space History !

First EUROSPACE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurospace
a non-profit organisation of 55 European aerospace companies
during 1961 to 1969 they make study for Space Shuttles for
The ESRO program: the European Aerospace Transporter

MUSTARD - http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/mustard.htm
Le transporteur aerospatial - http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/cnee1963.htm
MISTRAL - http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4096.msg32267.html#msg32267
RT-8-01 (Sanger I) - http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/saengeri.htm
Last work of Eugene Saenger, he dies of a Hartattack after he finish last page of RT-8-01 Study

but the end of ESRO / ELDO fate is sealed.

Two SAENGER II
after Saenger's death, MBB continued it studies
in beginn of 1985s MBB presents SÄNGER II (labeld Saenger II in englisch)
http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/saegerii.htm

a two stage Space Plane of 750 tons at lift-off
the Plane start of German Airport, fly to equator
there accelerated to mach 6 in 30 km high and release the upper stage

two version was considert
one: for 15 tons Cargo and Geo Sat, unmanned Cargus stage
two: the Horus Shuttle with 2 men crew and 3 ton payload

durnig 1980s Germany promotet SAENGER II at ESA
it became a Threat to french Proposals like HERMES and ARIANE 5 Rocket
and for Frenchs New Supersonic Airliner proposals,
because MBB promotet the SAENGER II Fist stage also as Mach 6 Airliner !
Dassault even presented French version of SANGER II as competition.

The French German disputes went on to 1989
then world change and Germany needed the Money for its Reunification
SAENGER II died a quiet death with other german "showcase" Projects in 1990's
 
So, a semi-plausible shuttle-wank scenario: Freedom is not canceled, but built close to its original form (think bigger ISS, without the Russians). STS is used for construction/large resupply flights, while HL-20s and Hermes are used for crew rotation/rescue. An unmanned HTV-like craft is used by Japan for ISS resupply. The Russian scrape together enough money for a few Buran flights in the 1990's. STS is retired around 2000, replaced by a VentureStar-like SSTO for cargo.

Simon ;)

Sweet mother of bukkake... Ah, so... soothing... Great... :D:D:D ;)
 
The Russians were necessary to the ISS. Freedom going up is about as wanky as Buran still flying. Well, not quite as much, but within the same category.

Would love if both happened though.
 
The Russians were necessary to the ISS. Freedom going up is about as wanky as Buran still flying.

Well, the ISS is essentialy the Freedom and Mir 2 cobbled together + some European/Asian/Southamerican modules to make it really international. ;)
 
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