An execution preempted: A lethal Otsu incident, Russian empire centered TL

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yboxman

Banned
If the Hejaz still official Ottoman, then? And what about that large island between the Straits and Smira areas?

All of it is still "officialy" Ottoman. What will actually happen on the ground in Arabia will be covered in the next post or two.

That island is Lesbos, the hometown of Djemal. It is now Greek, after nearly all of it's Turkish (or rather Greek speaking Muslims) had been massacred and expelled and will be shown as such in the Balkan map
 
All of it is still "officialy" Ottoman. What will actually happen on the ground in Arabia will be covered in the next post or two.

That island is Lesbos, the hometown of Djemal. It is now Greek, after nearly all of it's Turkish (or rather Greek speaking Muslims) had been massacred and expelled and will be shown as such in the Balkan map

I am guessing that from now on Islamic countries will see the Ottomans as having been far too merciful and will change policies accordingly.
 

yboxman

Banned
I am guessing that from now on Islamic countries will see the Ottomans as having been far too merciful and will change policies accordingly.

There are three independent Islamic countries left other than the rump OE. Morroco, which is about to fall under French rule and which has had no native Christian communities since the Almohavid dynasty. Afghanistan, which has no Christians either but whose Pashtun Sunni dynasty has just brutally suppressed it's latest Hazara uprising.

And Persia, which does has a sizable Assyrian community and some Armenians it would not mind being rid of. It also has Zorastrians and Jews, who have not been doing too well since Ismail Shah started converting Sunnis by the sword. And Bahais, of course. It may be amenable to a population exchange with Russia in order to reduce the chance for future interventions in it's territory.
 
I didn't mean just now, but in the future when the various states get independence. Or at least I assume so. And will the Russians demand to let their Jews emigrate to Palestine? And I look forward to someone making maps of this in the future, after more details on the autonomous areas are revealed.
 
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Thin lines represent autonomous Kurd, Zaza, Yezidi, Druze and Turkmen emirates which neither the Europeans or remaining Ottoman officials are much involved in administering.

Although I assume they're all interested in preventing the Kurdish emirates from coalescing into a sort of Kurdistan, and they'll club together to make sure the local rulers mind their place.

That map's brutal - Treaty of Sèvres brutal, or maybe even worse. I can't see how the Sultan will keep any legitimacy after this, and I'd guess that Djemal's revolution is months away, not years. There's also no realistic way for the Ottomans to control Hejaz and central Arabia, so the only question (assuming that no European power is interested in controlling that region) is whether the Hashemites or the Najd tribes come out on top.
 
Is the pope catholic? Of course they do, as the opportunity permits.

The problem is that seizing Greek Anatolia will be much more difficult than Crete.
The Greeks there were only not displaced thanks to an intervention of European powers and said powers prefer to be in control.
If they leave, the Turks are going to invade the Greek Anatolia and force the Greeks out.
The Greek military might be able to defend this territory, but it would require them to focus on defending it and de facto abandoning Greek claims on Macedonia.

yeah, but what Witte has in mind is a railroad empire that extends deep into Northern China, commercially if not politically. Frankly, the money would be better spent on providing a denser rail and road network for European Russia.

The same railways could be used for an invasion of Russia.
Looks like Witte does not think that Alexander III. was not right about the Chinese and their long-term potential.

Finally a map

How is going German Palestine to affect the Sinai?
Will the British occupy it as well?
Or maybe a neutral third party moves into this buffer zone.
Maybe... Zionist Sinai redux.

There's also no realistic way for the Ottomans to control Hejaz and central Arabia, so the only question (assuming that no European power is interested in controlling that region) is whether the Hashemites or the Najd tribes come out on top.

Don't forget the Zaydi Yemenis.
ITTL they have the opportunity to seize and retain much of the Hejaz.
 
Red is British
Blue is French
White is Russian
Black is German
Purple is occupied/administered/demillitarized by the great powers+Switzeland jointly

Thin lines represent autonomous Kurd, Zaza, Yezidi, Druze and Turkmen emirates which neither the Europeans or remaining Ottoman officials are much involved in administering.

View attachment 266802

Nice map,will the Turks try to reverse this in the future,and will this spark TTL's Great War?
 
All of it is still "officialy" Ottoman. What will actually happen on the ground in Arabia will be covered in the next post or two.

So rather like Cyprus from OTL from 1878 until 1914. "Officially" Ottoman but in practice British.
 

yboxman

Banned
Although I assume they're all interested in preventing the Kurdish emirates from coalescing into a sort of Kurdistan, and they'll club together to make sure the local rulers mind their place.

Well, the Russians are certainly interested in that. The British at some point will come to the conclusion that a buffer Kurdish state between British Mesopotamia and Russian Armenia may actually be a good idea indeed. The rules have changed but the great game continues.

Not that there are many Kurds thinking in national, as opposed to local/tribal terms yet.

It should also be clear that many Kurds live outside the semi-autonomous emirates. The Emirates are simply an indication of lack of direct Ottoman administrative control prior to the war and/or inability or disinterest of the European powers to expend resources on projecting authority into difficult regions, not of some recognition of any principle of self determination of nationhood.

That map's brutal - Treaty of Sèvres brutal, or maybe even worse. I can't see how the Sultan will keep any legitimacy after this, and I'd guess that Djemal's revolution is months away, not years. There's also no realistic way for the Ottomans to control Hejaz and central Arabia, so the only question (assuming that no European power is interested in controlling that region) is whether the Hashemites or the Najd tribes come out on top.

It's actually considerably better than Severes.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:TreatyOfSevres.png

No Italian zone in southern Anatolia streatching from Brusa to Cilicia. All the rest is pretty much straight Severes. Of course, in a just world, Russian Armenia would be made up of 1 vilayet (erzerum) and bits of Van, Bitlis and maybe Trebizon instead of seven Vilayets... but in a just world the Hamidian masscares would never have taken place and non-muslims would have been treated the same of Muslims. And in any event this TL aims at realism, not justice.

The great powers are grabbing as much as they can for themselves, and western public opinion, if not informed individuals, assumes the Armenians are the majority in the six vilayets.

So the Turks got screwed. The Turkish nation took a hit but it can survive it- it's less harsh than what the Germans got after WWII. The part that is really hurting their future prospects is actually the most demographically just part- Izmir. That area is the economic heart of Western Anatolia and it sticks out like a sore thumb in the integrated state the Turks would like to have. It's sort of if the Rhineland, or even the Rhur had been alienated from Germany instead of the eastern marchlands. These map may make things clearer:
https://www.google.co.il/search?q=t...JAhWMaRQKHfjvAAwQsAQIGQ#imgrc=IhdfR1W5ypDjeM:

When you overlay the GDP per capita provincial map with the population density map
https://www.google.co.il/search?q=t...SUm8AzzWM:&usg=__BOeYvb0YtgXeWH55l2thKFwUpR8=

You can see why losing the Six Vilayets isn't going to hurt Turkey all that much, size on the map notwithstanding, while losing Izmir certainly will. What losing the Six vilayets does do for Turkey is deny it Strategic depth. Conquering the entirety of Anatolia from a starting point in Kars during WWI was unrealistic. But capturing Ankara from a starting point in Sivas? doable.


As for Djemal, he is still young and not quite at the point where he can launch a succesful coup. But the officer corps is certainly muttering and Djemal came out of the war looking like a hero. You can expect Abdul Hamid to be stepping very carefully when he leaves his new capital in Bursa. In fact, he might just choose to remove back to Istanbul to enjoy the shameful protection of the occupying powers.

There's also no realistic way for the Ottomans to control Hejaz and central Arabia, so the only question (assuming that no European power is interested in controlling that region) is whether the Hashemites or the Najd tribes come out on top.

Well, the situation in Arabia is interesting. Right now the Najd is a vassal region to Rashidi Halil with the Saudis in exile. In Hejaz there is a sizable Ottoman garrison and since the authority of Abdul-Hamid drives in large part from being Caliph he may be loathe to withdraw it if he can gain European permission or support.

But there are other players as well. The Idrisids in Assir may launch an early rebellion. And the Zaidi imams control the interior of North Yemen and may be assumed to be lusting for liberation of the Ottoman held red sea coast. So you have a number of conflicts brewing. Arab tribes/states Vs Ottoman garrison, Arab states against each other, and Europeans against other Europeans seeking to establish protectorates over the various parties.

how do they all mesh together? next post or two.

The problem is that seizing Greek Anatolia will be much more difficult than Crete.
The Greeks there were only not displaced thanks to an intervention of European powers and said powers prefer to be in control.
If they leave, the Turks are going to invade the Greek Anatolia and force the Greeks out.
The Greek military might be able to defend this territory, but it would require them to focus on defending it and de facto abandoning Greek claims on Macedonia.

Right.

The same railways could be used for an invasion of Russia.
Looks like Witte does not think that Alexander III. was not right about the Chinese and their long-term potential.

He didn't OTL. And the Chinese have done nothing to prove him wrong so far in spite of performing better than OTL Vs the Japanese.

How is going German Palestine to affect the Sinai?
Will the British occupy it as well?
Or maybe a neutral third party moves into this buffer zone.
Maybe... Zionist Sinai redux.

All I can say is that I'm aiming at a different dynamic and outcome ITTL than MOS or OTL.

I didn't mean just now, but in the future when the various states get independence. Or at least I assume so. And will the Russians demand to let their Jews emigrate to Palestine? And I look forward to someone making maps of this in the future, after more details on the autonomous areas are revealed.

Not at this point- simply because it does not occur to them. They and the other powers have insisted on equal access to the Holy land and to purchasing land in it, for pilgrims, priests, businessmen and religous settlers and Herzl and Nardau managed to push a "religous equality clause" into the Quasi-mandate which makes clear this applies to Jewish as well as Chrsitian persons.
 
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Ahh, no no. I didn't mean that it was to help Jews. Heck, I am sure the Russians would have wanted the holier of cities for themselves. Just so they have someplace to shove them all, even if the upper classes liked having them around as a useful scapegoat.
 
It's actually considerably better than Severes.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:TreatyOfSevres.png

No Italian zone in southern Anatolia streatching from Brusa to Cilicia. All the rest is pretty much straight Severes.

That map does not show Sèvres. It actually shows Sykes-Picot+San Remo+Sèvres together, so about the maximal theoretical amount of screwing over Turkey ever possible. But the three were of course (slightly) different schemes (although San Remo largely incorporated Sykes-Picot) and I guess nobody in reality thought that implementing all of that together was ever viable. Essentially, Sèvres ditched San Remo, by not providing for the vast Italian zone (which competed with Greek claims, but was anyway largely vague even in San Remo's accords) and reducing French pretenses outlined in Sykes-Picot (where they planned to get land deep into Kurdistan and Cappadocia, Sivas included). Also, Wilsonian Armenia in Sèvres was considerably smaller than TTL's Russian Armenia (although, I gather, somewhat larger than San Remo's planned Russian Armenia).
Turkey ITTL ends up significantly smaller than it was supposed to be at Sèvres, but quite better off than what it would have been in a TL where San Remo plans were implemented (not that I believe that was possibile under OTL-like WWI conditions. The Italian zone, even though it was meant more an economic sphere than actual Italian control, was just ludicrous).
 
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It should also be clear that many Kurds live outside the semi-autonomous emirates. The Emirates are simply an indication of lack of direct Ottoman administrative control prior to the war and/or inability or disinterest of the European powers to expend resources on projecting authority into difficult regions, not of some recognition of any principle of self determination of nationhood.

Of course not - if any of the emirs steps out of line, he'll be slapped down. Interesting things can happen a generation or two down the road, though, especially if political exiles end up in that region. That enclave in the Jebel Druze could also end up going unanticipated ways.

The Turkish nation took a hit but it can survive it- it's less harsh than what the Germans got after WWII. The part that is really hurting their future prospects is actually the most demographically just part- Izmir. That area is the economic heart of Western Anatolia and it sticks out like a sore thumb in the integrated state the Turks would like to have.

Actually, I'd say that Turkey losing all its Balkan territories would hurt more, given their relative wealth. The Balkan territories plus Izmir is a major hit.

I agree that the damage from the loss of the Six Vilayets is mainly strategic depth and pride. But the loss of Izmir hits the Ottomans in the pocket and the heart. This is part of the war they actually won, and they still got it taken away from them, not to mention all the stories of massacres and atrocities that are being told all over Anatolia by now (of course the Ottomans did the same thing to the Greeks, but that part of the story will be glossed over). I'm guessing that there will be one hell of a Dolchstoßlegende, centered on Izmir but taking in the Six Vilayets too, which will mainly be directed at the great powers and the Christian minorities but will probably also include the government that signed the peace treaty. That's not exactly fair, given that Abdul Hamid had little choice, but these things rarely are.

You can expect Abdul Hamid to be stepping very carefully when he leaves his new capital in Bursa. In fact, he might just choose to remove back to Istanbul to enjoy the shameful protection of the occupying powers.

At that point, the time to a coup is probably measured in days.

Well, the situation in Arabia is interesting. Right now the Najd is a vassal region to Rashidi Halil with the Saudis in exile. In Hejaz there is a sizable Ottoman garrison and since the authority of Abdul-Hamid drives in large part from being Caliph he may be loathe to withdraw it if he can gain European permission or support.

But there are other players as well. The Idrisids in Assir may launch an early rebellion. And the Zaidi imams control the interior of North Yemen and may be assumed to be lusting for liberation of the Ottoman held red sea coast. So you have a number of conflicts brewing. Arab tribes/states Vs Ottoman garrison, Arab states against each other, and Europeans against other Europeans seeking to establish protectorates over the various parties.

There may be a garrison, but there's no way that Abdul Hamid can reinforce it unless at least one European power gives him transit rights, nor can he really discipline it if it goes rogue or gets bought off by the Hashemites.

'Asir would be more likely to go its own way than make a bid for the whole Hejaz, wouldn't it? The Zaidis might make a play, though, especially if they have someone backing them.
 
Thanks for the map, it's interesting to see how things are turning out. I can only hope that the upcoming Russian focus on East Asia is going to do at least a little to cool things down in the Balkans - or at least to remove some of the potential for a big "European War." It would, in a way, be a neat trick for a Russia wank to evolve out of Russia fighting fewer/smaller wars...
 
And Persia, which does has a sizable Assyrian community and some Armenians it would not mind being rid of. It also has Zorastrians and Jews, who have not been doing too well since Ismail Shah started converting Sunnis by the sword. And Bahais, of course. It may be amenable to a population exchange with Russia in order to reduce the chance for future interventions in it's territory.

But Russia might prefer that population where it is, precisely in order to maintain the chance for future intervention in Persia's territory. ;)
Persian Azerbaijan is a lot more interesting for them now that Russia effectively have Eastern Anatolia, in economic and strategic terms, as it now forms almost Persian salient into Russian-held areas; for one, the border would be considerably shorter. And that's where most of the Assyrians in Persia live. (there are Armenian merchant communities in cities like Isfahan; I am not sure about Armenians remaining in the Persian northwest, I suppose some but not many).
A Russian move there would, however, pointedly annoy the British.
Note that IOTL, the Qajar Shah Naseroddin was assassinated in 1898. This might be easily be butterflied away, since the assassination was likely masterminded from circles in Istanbul, but Persia is still likely to experience some disturbance soon.
 

yboxman

Banned
Of course not - if any of the emirs steps out of line, he'll be slapped down. Interesting things can happen a generation or two down the road, though, especially if political exiles end up in that region. That enclave in the Jebel Druze could also end up going unanticipated ways.

Right. And some interesting conflicts as modernized young Kurds return to their feudaly ruled homes after studying and working in Ankara, Mosul, Baku and Tbilisi.

Actually, I'd say that Turkey losing all its Balkan territories would hurt more, given their relative wealth.

losing Saloniki and adrianopole is definately a tough blow. But unlike OTL, no great masses of flee Macedonia, only Thrace and trade between ANatolia and Saloniki continues unhindered (The Austrians want to retain Anatolia as a market so they have an "open bridges" policy).

I'm guessing that there will be one hell of a Dolchstoßlegende, centered on Izmir but taking in the Six Vilayets too, which will mainly be directed at the great powers and the Christian minorities but will probably also include the government that signed the peace treaty. That's not exactly fair, given that Abdul Hamid had little choice, but these things rarely are.

At that point, the time to a coup is probably measured in days.

The thing is, when you don't seize control of the center of government, and preffarably the head of goverment, it's not a coup. It's a territorial civil war. And it's one that the rebels can't definitively win with the Straits out of bounds for their fun and games. Worse, it will continue acting as a millitary, financial and administrative nexus to rally support in the provinces for counterinsurgency.

The plotters, and there are quite a few seprate groups emerging, are aware of this. Since they don't want a long civil war which might lead to the great powers carving up what's left of their homeland, or Greece taking advantage, they may choose to bide their time.

And Abdulhamid, after all is a very savvy politician and a relatively strong Sultan. Not neccesarily a GOOD sultan, but a strong one (though George would be aghast at the comparison he's essentially Turkey's Alexander III). So I'm giving him an ongoing reign measured in years, rather than months.

There may be a garrison, but there's no way that Abdul Hamid can reinforce it unless at least one European power gives him transit rights, nor can he really discipline it if it goes rogue or gets bought off by the Hashemites.

Well, he needs either German or British transit/supplies+support. Great power politics being as they are you can probably expect the Hashemis to get the support of one of those powers and Abdul-Hamid to get the support of the other. I can't really see the Hashemis buying the Garrison out. Regular Ottoman troops and their commanders looked down on Arabs of their sort nearly as badly as the British looked down on the Egyptians. Besides, the Hashemis are not exactly flush with funds. Their Great power backers might be, though- as well as being capable to offer the Ottoman garrisons a ticket home and/or employment in their own empires.

'Asir would be more likely to go its own way than make a bid for the whole Hejaz, wouldn't it? The Zaidis might make a play, though, especially if they have someone backing them.

Right. the Idrisids lack a pre-existing administration in 1895 and will have their work cut out establishing themselves. task #2 on the Zaidi checklist (after eliminating the Ottoman garrison on the red sea coast) is probably invading Asir- yet more chances for Great Game shenanigans.
 

yboxman

Banned
But Russia might prefer that population where it is, precisely in order to maintain the chance for future intervention in Persia's territory. ;)

There are probably Russian statesmen thinking along those terms. George might- he's young and therefore still tends to equate national strength with lines drawn on a map. But Witte, and the general trend of Russian policy post 1825, views Persia as a subject-ally, and market for Russian goods, not as a slice of roast to be carved up and gradually annexed. They prefer to increase influence in Teheran, and(Witte) russian railway penatration as well. Dicing off pieces of Persia in the North is the best way to turn Persia to Britain and close off Russia's dream of a rail connection with the Persian gulf and the Indian ocean.

Right now Russia just took over a huge chunk of territory with many hostile people. It may prefer to nail that down and digest it, which will be easier if some of the hostiles are exchanged with the Assyrians (and Armenians. And maybe Bahais, Jews and Zorastrians as well). I'll mull it over.

Persian Azerbaijan is a lot more interesting for them now that Russia effectively have Eastern Anatolia, in economic and strategic terms, as it now forms almost Persian salient into Russian-held areas; for one, the border would be considerably shorter.

I don't think Russia is particularly worried about an invasion from Persia, or even border security and infiltration. The Azeris, unlike other Muslim populations under Russian rule, have been remarkably pacific post 1825 (to be sure, that is partly due to the way the Russians have set them up against the Armenians).


And that's where most of the Assyrians in Persia live. (there are Armenian merchant communities in cities like Isfahan; I am not sure about Armenians remaining in the Persian northwest, I suppose some but not many).

Not many in the Northwest post 1825- the reason Yerevan (modern Armenia) actually had an Armenian majority in 1914 is that a population exchange had taken place post that war.

Note that IOTL, the Qajar Shah Naseroddin was assassinated in 1898. This might be easily be butterflied away, since the assassination was likely masterminded from circles in Istanbul, but Persia is still likely to experience some disturbance soon.

1896. And yeah, that's probably butterflied away. But he's old- his decline death sometimes between 1900-1910 might prove to be the trigger for the Persian revolution TTL rather than the 1905 Russian revolution.
 
All I can say is that I'm aiming at a different dynamic and outcome ITTL than MOS or OTL.

My impression is that it will be closer to MoS than OTL because of the whole avoiding collapse of the old order-motive in both TLs.

The thing is, when you don't seize control of the center of government, and preffarably the head of goverment, it's not a coup. It's a territorial civil war. And it's one that the rebels can't definitively win with the Straits out of bounds for their fun and games. Worse, it will continue acting as a millitary, financial and administrative nexus to rally support in the provinces for counterinsurgency.

Isn't Bursa the de-facto capital of the post-Berlin Ottoman Empire?
Seizing Bursa and the government in Bursa is doable.

The plotters, and there are quite a few seprate groups emerging, are aware of this. Since they don't want a long civil war which might lead to the great powers carving up what's left of their homeland, or Greece taking advantage, they may choose to bide their time.

And Abdulhamid, after all is a very savvy politician and a relatively strong Sultan. Not neccesarily a GOOD sultan, but a strong one (though George would be aghast at the comparison he's essentially Turkey's Alexander III). So I'm giving him an ongoing reign measured in years, rather than months.

His reign may continue, but not his rule.
The dismembering of his empire would destroy much if not most legitimacy and the image as a strong ruler.
As a savvy politician he could make a deal with a dissatisfied group who is willing to compromise with him and retire to Constantinople, the nominal capital as nominal head of the realm.
That would make the transition of the authority to Djemal and the others as smooth as possible.

Well, he needs either German or British transit/supplies+support. Great power politics being as they are you can probably expect the Hashemis to get the support of one of those powers and Abdul-Hamid to get the support of the other. I can't really see the Hashemis buying the Garrison out. Regular Ottoman troops and their commanders looked down on Arabs of their sort nearly as badly as the British looked down on the Egyptians. Besides, the Hashemis are not exactly flush with funds. Their Great power backers might be, though- as well as being capable to offer the Ottoman garrisons a ticket home and/or employment in their own empires.

Imperial Germany will probably support what is left of the Ottoman Arabia in order to secure the southern flank of German Palestine and gain leverage and influence on the rump Ottoman Empire. I can see Britain countering it with support for local factions so that Ottoman-German influence north of Aden and in the Red Sea is minimized.
 

yboxman

Banned
Maps #2: the Balkans 1896

Next map: The Balkans

Red is Austrian Macedon

Pink is Bulgarian Thrace.

Blue is the Emirate of Albania

Light green are territorial gains by Montenegro

Dark Green Territorial gains by Greece in the Aegean


Balkans1896export.jpg

Balkans1896export.jpg
 

yboxman

Banned
Map #3 Ethnographic map of macedonia

Just to get an idea of how mind boggingly complex the ethnographic mix of the region is, here's a map prepared by an Austrian ethnologist in the 1890s. It's probably the least partisan of all the maps muddying the waters.

800px-Makedonien_ethnisch_(1892).JPG

Light Green are Christian Bulgarian dialect leaning slavs

Brown are Muslim Bulgarian dialect leaning slavs

diagnolly striped blue are Christian Serb dialect leaning slavs

Brown stripes are Serb dialect leaning slavs

Pink are (Muslim) Turkish speakers

diagnolly striped green are christian Turkish speakers

Dark blue is mixed Albanian (Muslim), serb population

light blue are Aromani

pink are muslim Albanians

pink stripes are christian albanians

Blue stripes on Yellow are Christian Greek speakers

yellow are Muslim greek speakers

Red are Urban Jews who dominate Saloniki, Sers and Monastir

And needless to say the borders this Austrian ethnographer draws are conjugtual as hell and reflect presumed local majorities or pluralities, not exclusive populations-the populations are extremely mixed.

800px-Makedonien_ethnisch_(1892).JPG
 
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