An execution preempted: A lethal Otsu incident, Russian empire centered TL

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What a cliffhanger.

Is Edhem Pasha going to cut his state's losses in the east (making a deal with Russia) in order to focus on the west where its forces can still win against its enemies?
 

yboxman

Banned
What a cliffhanger.

Is Edhem Pasha going to cut his state's losses in the east (making a deal with Russia) in order to focus on the west where its forces can still win against its enemies?

Edhem Pasha https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edhem_Pasha is the local commander of the Ottoman forces in Macedonia, not the overall Ottoman chief of staff (There isn;t any. AbdulHamid doesn;t want a coup). OTL, he crushed the Greek army in the Ottoman-Greek war of 1896. He has no ability to cut any deals with Russia or even make contact with it.

With Istanbul occupied, the Ottoman coasts blockaded, and the main Ottoman forces crushed in Eastern Anatolia The Central Ottoman government at this time has a crisis of legitimacy/authority, leaving local commanders in the Balkans, Mhagreb and Mashriq to make some difficult decisions without reliable guidance form the center.
 
With Istanbul occupied, the Ottoman coasts blockaded, and the main Ottoman forces crushed in Eastern Anatolia The Central Ottoman government at this time has a crisis of legitimacy/authority, leaving local commanders in the Balkans, Mhagreb and Mashriq to make some difficult decisions without reliable guidance form the center.

So Edhem Pasha is basically the equivalent to Mound of spring's Mustafa Kemal (Ata-Akkad).
I like the implications.
TTL Mustafa Kemal is going to stay in Europe, ins't he?

He has no ability to cut any deals with Russia or even make contact with it.

No Russian officials/representatives in Salonica?
Doesn't he control territory which borders states not at war with the Ottoman Empire?
 

yboxman

Banned
So Edhem Pasha is basically the equivalent to Mound of spring's Mustafa Kemal (Ata-Akkad).
I like the implications.

Not quite. He holds a weaker hand. Besides, there can be only one...

TTL Mustafa Kemal is going to stay in Europe, ins't he?

Yup. Saloniki lad will stay in his home town. Talaat Pasha may end up remaining in Salonki as well (Bulgaria definately overruns his home town).

No Russian officials/representatives in Salonica?

Probably a Consul. But what will he do? Tell the Bulgarians off? And the Serbs as well? It didn't work in 1885, and it didn't work in 1911 OTL, so why should it work in 1895? That's assuming the Russian government is determined to keep Bulgaria out of Macedonia, which it isn;t, or not quite. Which doesn't mean Edhem won't try- but to no good effect.

Doesn't he control territory which borders states not at war with the Ottoman Empire?

Serbia, Montenegro, and AH. And Italy across the Adriatic.
 
Yup. Saloniki lad will stay in his home town. Talaat Pasha may end up remaining in Salonki as well (Bulgaria definately overruns his home town).

I hope Mustafa Kemal becomes a PoV character.
After all, TTL version of the other major Ottoman warlod in Mound of spring was one ITTL.

Probably a Consul. But what will he do? Tell the Bulgarians off? And the Serbs as well? It didn't work in 1885, and it didn't work in 1911 OTL, so why should it work in 1895? That's assuming the Russian government is determined to keep Bulgaria out of Macedonia, which it isn;t, or not quite. Which doesn't mean Edhem won't try- but to no good effect.

Serbia, Montenegro, and AH. And Italy across the Adriatic.

What if Russia pressures them to stay out in concert with the other European great powers?
One of the reasons why UK did occupy Crete was the wish to keep Greece out of Crete, but it proved insufficient to keep Greece's expansionism in-check.
Together they might be more successful.
A despotate of Macedonia which relies on support of European great powers is at least initially much easier to influence by them (one of the main reasons for the intervention in the Ottoman Empire) than the independent nationalist Christian Balkan states.
 
I think the main question would be, whats in it for Russia to try and tell their Balkan 'satelites' off?
 

yboxman

Banned
At this point, Russia has only one Balkan "satellite", the Russian emperor's wife's homeland.

Right. The pro-Austrian faction is in power in Serbia and Bulgaria has been enstranged from Russia (and with an Austrian king/prince) since 1885.

That is not to say that Russia has no influence in Sofia and Belgrade but neither ask "how high?" if Russia says "Jump!"
 

abc123

Banned
Right. The pro-Austrian faction is in power in Serbia and Bulgaria has been enstranged from Russia (and with an Austrian king/prince) since 1885.

That is not to say that Russia has no influence in Sofia and Belgrade but neither ask "how high?" if Russia says "Jump!"

Agreed. What about Greece and Romania?
 
Just chiming in to say this is fantastic work so far and an interesting read.

Looking forward to more.
 

yboxman

Banned
Agreed. What about Greece and Romania?

Greece at this point is is neutral in regards to Austria and Russia. Due to a marital alliance they have better relations with Serbia than OTL. A number of other factors are making them slightly more pro-Russian than OTL.

Romania is still smarting at the theft of Bessarbia by their "ally" in 1878 and a semi-solid adherant to the Triple alliance under a Hohenzollern monarch.
 

yboxman

Banned
I hope Mustafa Kemal becomes a PoV character.
After all, TTL version of the other major Ottoman warlod in Mound of spring was one ITTL.

Kemal will be a minor POV character. If I run TTL as far as WWI I have a very cool scene for him planned. Djemal will be a a somewhat larger POV character. Enver and Tlaat will make appearances but only as supporting cast.
 

yboxman

Banned
Post #18- Brave leopard commander Lee-Si-Tzin



Thanks to Valena https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/member.php?u=74411 for the title!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOBZtB7q8_k


Hushan, Yalu river, Choson-Qing China border, September 10th 0500 1895.

Ito Harabe was sergeant now, the remains of his platoon consolidated into a section almanagated with another battered platoon under the command of a new lieutenant, Arata Wakahisa, a fresh faced boy straight from Kyoto.
Theirs was far from the only such composite unit. Pyongyang had been a bloodbath. It had taken nearly 3000 Japanese casualties to break the Qing defenses. Worse, an intemparate fall storm had provided cover for the shattered remmanents of the Qing army (1) and their Korean puppets to flee into the countryside or regroup north of the Yalu.

The Japanese army had been in no shape to prevent their escape- and not only because of the weather or their casualties. The mood of the soldiers had been ugly after the capture of Pyongyang and they sought an outlet for their rage. Perhaps, had Shigero been alive, Ito could have kept control of his troops as they scoured the streets of Pyongyang for "snipers" and "Qing deserters". But he wasn't, and he hadn't and neither had many of the surviving officers. Many, in fact, had partaken in the rampage. He had thought the sack of Seoul was bad. Pyongyang… Pyongyang was a nightmare. And one that left him with recurring nightmares which would remain with him the rest of his life (2).

However long that was. The Qing had had a month since their defeat at Pyongyang to fortify the North Banks of the river, assuming they had not started on it as soon as the war broke out (3). And the river was incredibly wide and deep, far more so than any river he had previously seen in either Nippon or Choson. His men would horrifically exposed to Chinese artillery. And if the Qing had any more of the infernal "Machine Guns" they had encountered in Pyongyang…

The Qing were inferior soldiers. This was an article of religion by now among the imperial army. But even an inferior soldier was dangerous when holding a superior defensive position- especially when he outnumbered you two or three to one (4).

Ito sharply barks his section into attention as Arata delivers an exhortation to his troops. The last time he listened to a similar speech was just before Pyongyang. Only a month ago but then, he was a lowly corporal, whereas now he is a non-com in charge of his own section. Is that why he is less impressed? Ito can’t help comparing Shigero's style and character to Arata's , and not to the latter's credit. But he is careful not to let his facial expression reveal his conclusions to the troops. Lack of confidence in their commander will not help them fulfill their mission or preserve their lives in the coming struggle.

"And remember, once we cross the river the only thing standing between Nippon and final victory is Darien! Win here, and they have nowhere left to run but their naval base. Capture their naval base and they will not be able to bring in reinforcements over the Yellow sea! Nippon will be Victorious! Dai-Nippon-Teikoku Banzai!"

" Dai-Nippon-Teikoku Banzai! Dai-Nippon-Teikoku Banzai!"

Scream the soldiers as Arata heads first across the pontoon bridge placed during the night. Fresh face boy he may be, but he is still a Japanese officer and Japanese officers lead from the front. Midway through they discover that the placement did not go undetected and that the Qing Artillery had markedly improved in their marksmanship since Pyongyang (5).

The Maxims open up near the Northern Bank, where the pontoon bridge has been destroyed, forcing the Japanese soldiers to wade, and even swim, amongst the rough currents to reach their targets. They take a horrific toll before Japanese counter artillery, and their own jamming silences most.

Amongst the less noticed victims of the Maxim is Arata, who dies, as the dispatches will mention, as a true Japanese officer. Sword in hand, exhorting his men onwards- and making a very vulnerable target.

Ito Harabe, less heroic and far more experienced, crouches in the shadow of the enemy fotifications, lights his improvised explosive device (6) and tosses it over the rampants, hoping the waters of the Yalu have not destroyed its potency. They haven't.

And whatever stiffening might have been injected into the Qing artillery their infantry is the same demoralized and indifferent material the sons of Nippon had beaten like a drum across their march up Choson. As he scrambles onto the rampant overlooking the enemy trenches half of the survivors in the flee and the others put up only a token fight before they are overwhelmed by the onrush of Bayonet wielding men from his section.

Resistance, however, stiffens much more rapidly than his experience in Pyongyang. As he seeks to expand the hard won bridgehead and penetrate the secondary trenchline, QIng artillery continues to take a dreadful toll on reinforcements.

He does not remember at what point he takes command of what is left of his platoon. Without any higher authority it is he who leads them through the secondary trenches in a charge at the Qing Artillery placement overlooking his section of the river bank. He brings his men within rifle range just before the shocked men servicing the battery have a chance to redirect their fire at the rag-tag force attacking their flank.

The man commanding the battery is not lacking in either courage or skill. He beats off the first charge and it is only after ten minutes of close quarter combat that the battery ceases its devastating fire.

He shows no fear at the Bayonet Ito holds to his throat and lectures him in a barely understandable Korean-Mandarin patois regarding his responsibilities to the men he has taken captive.

Though he shares the Epicanthic fold common to Eastern Asia many of his men do not and his bearing and vocabulary is unlike any Manchu, Han nor Korean Ito has ever met.

Ito silences his captive's tirade with a prick of his Bayonet.
"Who are you? Identify yourself!"

" Lee-Si-Tzin, Leopard commander of the Yellow Banner!"
Before he has a chance to respond to this mendacity the ground begins to shake with the arrival of the Qing reserve, spearheaded by 2000 carbine armed cavalry (7).

For the next two hours the Japanese soldiers at the embattled bridgehead have little time to interrogate their prisoners. When the Qing counterattack is finally repulsed three of those captives are gone- among them the "Bannerman" commander.

(1) Which has suffered three times as many causulties, or about 40% of it's total force. The Koreans have suffered even worse. Generally speaking the slower pace of the war TTL means the Japanese have about twice as many troops in each engagement as they did OTL, and the Qing about three times as many, not counting Korean auxiliaries. A 3:1-5:1 casualty ratio is about the norm for most Sino-Japanese engagements TTL as opposed to a 10:1 ratio OTL.
(2) Which I will not share with the gentle reader. Not glossing over this sort of thing does not me I intend dwelling over it too much. Just think something between OTLs "Port Arthur Massacre" in the first Sino-Japanese war and "Rape of Nanking" in the second on a somewhat smaller scale. OTL, the lack of opposition, easy victories, tough discipline swift progress and excellent supply lines resulted in relatively model behavior by Japanese soldiers in Korea. TTL their behavior more closely resembles that of Japanese troops in the second Sino-Japanese war.
(3) Which they hadn’t, but Russian engineers have been put to work buffing up the defenses since July.
(4) The Japanese have 20,000 soldiers on the Yalu. The Qing 50,000, as well as 5,000 Koreans… and about 3,000 Russian "advisers".
(5) About a third of the Russian advisers are artillery and engineering specialists. The others…
(6) Credit for the modern (re) invention of the grenade is generally given to Russian soldiers during the siege of Port Arthur. But it seems like every conflict involving trenches and siege warfare, including the Russo-Turkish war, the Crimean war and the American Civil war saw improvised models used at some point. Why was their use not systemized in training and production until WWI? Dunno. Maybe the powers that be thought it would be bad for the "fighting spirit".
(7) The others are cavalry, mostly drawn from Transbaikal coassaks, which are held in reserve against the point of the Japanese crossing… as Ito Harabe and his men are about to find out.
 
On (2) - IOTL there already was a massacre. Fleeing Chinese soldiers, who had already dropped their weapons and were gathered in a field south of Pyongyang, were burnt by the thousands by the Japanese using wind and a few matches. Their skulls are said to have made small hills along the road into Pyongyang.
 
On (2) - IOTL there already was a massacre. Fleeing Chinese soldiers, who had already dropped their weapons and were gathered in a field south of Pyongyang, were burnt by the thousands by the Japanese using wind and a few matches. Their skulls are said to have made small hills along the road into Pyongyang.

Why did the IJA soldiers murder these Chinese PoWs? :(
They were already defeated and disarmed and therefore not a threat to them and it does not seem to me that the Japanese had big issues with their supply...
I don't comprehend this massacre.
 
Why did the IJA soldiers murder these Chinese PoWs? :(
They were already defeated and disarmed and therefore not a threat to them and it does not seem to me that the Japanese had big issues with their supply...
I don't comprehend this massacre.
Keep in mind, this isn't exactly the most brutal thing the IJA did in real life, let alone here. Plus Japan had a rather violent society before the Opening, with all crimes punished by execution.
 
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