An execution preempted: A lethal Otsu incident, Russian empire centered TL

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yboxman

Banned
I would say it was about as bad as the Jews under the Nazis. Great ipdate in any case.

Not treated quite so badly in the 1880s. If they had been there would have been no Armenian question in WWI- since they would have been all dead by then. WWI is another story- but the state of mind which led to the Armenian Genocide was only arrived at after the Ethnic cleansing and massacre of Muslims associated with the Cretan revolt and Balkan wars.

And, again without in any way condemming Armenian nationalists or excusing Turkish actions, The Turks in WWI had good reason to fear a repeat of the "Christian subjects rebel, European powers intervene, Muslims in "liberated" Christian states massacred and ethnically cleansed. Wash and Repeat" scenario they had been facing from 1820 onwards in the Balkans and the Caucaus- but brought into their core territories, and last refuge in Anatolia. Severes, and the Turkish Greek war show that this fear was not unfounded.

In contrast, German "fears" of "the Jews" were utter hogwash with no basis in fact. A minority numbering under 1% of the population and with no political ambitions within Germany besides integration was no threat to the Volk. Especially given the enthusiastically pro-German sentiment of Polish, Baltic and Russian Jews during WWI (And pro Habsburg sentiment of AH Jews).

Of course, since the Genocide was carried out against the Apolitical Assyrians and Armenians in the interior and since Djemal seems to have had similliar plans for the Orthodox Christians of Syria the whole "We were just undertaking necessary relocation of a hostile and rebelious population to the interior and accidentially forgot to provide them with food" argument doesn't have much traction.

Likewise, if the Turkish elites, and masses, had not been wedded to the idea of a state where Muslims were on top and non-Muslims in subordinate positions, Many more of the Armenian, Greek and other Christian groups in the empire may well have found the economic advantages associated with being the middle and upper economic classes of a large multiethnic empire prefferable to becoming the often relocated plebes of small and consolidated monoethnic states.

Or they could have stayed Neutral in WWI and carried out a genuine relocation of the Armenians and Greeks to the Interior while everyone else was busy dying in the trenches. Steps taken along those lines between 1911-1914 may have been brutal, but they did not result in massive deaths. Had they persisted then the danger of Sepratism and collusion with external enemies would have been eliminated without physically eliminating the Christian minorities.
 

yboxman

Banned
1894c: The Armenian question

June 1894, St Petersburg, Committee of Ministers

"I've been hearing very disturbing things about the situation in Ottoman Armenia from the Erevan appointee to the state council", remarked George casually.

None of his ministers, Witte included, seemed particularly happy with his expansion of the council of state to include appointed representatives not only from the Zemestvos but also from the leading municipal governments of the Grand duchy of Finland, the Viceroyalty of the Caucasus, the Vistula provinces and the Western Borderlands (1). They were even less happy with the way he permitted the membership of the older members to lapse without appointing “appropriate” replacements. The previous plenary session of the council of state had been a unusually lively affair and the next one showed every indication of being even more so.

He had actually asked the delegates to prepare a private memorial of the issues they thought pertinent to the state, rather than merely raising for discussion those issues his own ministers suggested.

There was no helping it. If he wished to escape the multifaceted echo chamber of his fathers ministers and the elders of his clan, if he wished to have a better feel for his people's desires and thoughts, he need must bring in fresh voices from the provinces.

The aged Nicholas de Giers reacted with some alarm. To date the Young Tsar, to the extent he had shown interest in foreign affairs had been focused, almost obsessed, with the Far East. This area, while, a distraction to the opinion of Gier, offered little danger for war, the prevention of which was Gier's chief purpose. The Eastern question on the other hand…

"I would not lay too much credence to the bleetings of the Armenian. These Asiatics are nearly as bad as the Jews with their clannishness, ambition, parasitic mercantilism and constant complaints"

"That's as may be. But the Erevan delegate who is, by and by, a Great Russian (2) is complaining of the financial burden of caring for tens of thousands of Refugees crossing the Ottoman border. Whatever may be the details of what occurred in Sasun, it seems clear that their persecutions are sufficiently harsh to convince even peasants to abandon their land."

"One cannot crush a rebellion without employing harsh measures. I am sure that once the Ottomans regain control of their provinces the farmers will return to their home and cease to be a burden and a danger to the stability of the empire."

"A danger? Why a danger? We've never faced an Armenian rebellion to our rule, have we? The Muslims, and even the Mingrellians have rebelled against us, but never the Armenians- why some of our best generals and even ministers have been Armenian."

"Well, this is really a matter for the ministry of interior…"

"Just so. Duronvo?"

"The danger of the Armenians is in their financial and mercantile infiltration. They aim at becoming masters of our southern provinces!"

"Even if this were true why should we fear this outcome? They have never rebelled against us. They cannot rebel against us. There are… what? Perhaps a million of them within all of Russia? Two million in Turkey and Persia? They are a majority, and a bare majority at that, only in Erevan and over a third of their population, and the richer and more politically active portion thereof, live outside it. They depend on us for their very existence and cannot hope to achieve a separate existence- and their mercantile activities are not even in competition with great Russians!"

"Your highness, whatever the past services of Armenian notables to the Russian throne, they have utterly rejected the imposition of official nationality, reject the true church and their young men increasingly drift into the revolutionary movement. From the very first days of your blessed father's reign they have been a bone in our throats!"

"Have you had no success in turning them into good Russians?"

"Your highness, they are obdurate."

"Like the Poles?"

"Even so your highness."

"And the Lithuanians? And the Jews? And the Tartars? And the Finns?"

"Orthodoxy, Russian nationality and Autocracy shall triumph over all opposition your majesty!"

George can by now definitely feel the onset of a pounding headache.

"Vladimir Karlovich. Has the holy synod been noticeably more successful in converting Armenians, or the Cathloics, let alone the Moslem and the Jew to Orthodoxy in the past decade than it previously enjoyed?"

"Well… Not as such your majesty."

"Duronvo, are we facing more or less separatist and autonomist agitation now than before my father's Russifcation campaign was launched?"

"Your majesty, policies of this sort require time and steadfastness to bear fruit! You cannot change the course of the ship of state when it is buffeted by the waves or it shall never reach it's proper destination!"

Yes, the Headache was definitely there.

"Admiral Alexsyev. If a ship under your command were to find athrawt it's course a glacier would you insist on sailing through it simply because that is the shortest way to reach your destination?"

The question hangs in the air unanswered.

"Gentlemen, I am not my father. Perhaps you may have noticed this sad fact. For one thing, I am shorter. My father faced murder and rebellion and spent ten years crushing them and reversing the policies of his own father- which he blamed for being the source of his murder."

“Russia owes a great debt to the strength of your father”. Mutters Witte for the first time. Though still only finance minister, the age and ill health of Nikolai Bunge has lead him to unofficially assume much of the chairman’s responsibilities. Few doubt that in spite of his scandalous second marriage he will be the next chairman.

“Just so. But a measure of his strength was that he did not blindly maintain the course his own father set. Rather, he set his hand on the rudder of the ship of state and pulled it back from the maw of the Scylla of revolution… just as my grandfather navigated Russia away from the Charybdis of stagnation and humiliation by the West. Now it falls to me to chart a safe course forward between these twin dangers, neither fearing to correct course nor seeking to ignores the current of world-historical events on which the ship of state must navigate.”

Giers definitely has a panicked look in his eyes by now. Unsurprisingly, he attempts to steer the conversation into a narrower, more controllable channel “Your Majesty, regarding the Armenians…”

“Of course, of course. But it is all of a part. We fear to contemplate changes over our borders because we are locked into a certain outlook regarding our own subjects. We hesitate to exploit opportunities in the Near East because we are uncertain of our own strength and do not dare put it to the test. I do not advocate any particular course of actions regarding the recent Ottoman massacres at present. Perhaps, as you say they shall abate and leave us with no opening or need for action.

Perhaps there is no advantage to Russia in taking any action- for I quite agree that the greatest advantage available to us is time. Time to develop our internal resources, time to catch up with the technology, prosperity and organization of the West. Time, too to better integrate the non Russian nationalities into the fabric of the empire. But perhaps an opportunity presents itself. Perhaps failing to take advantage of this opportunity is the irresponsible course of action”

George takes deep breath, organizing his thoughts. He knew this moment of confrontation would come, but in truth he was planning on approaching it more gradually after he had had a chance to replace some of his more obdurate ministers. The die, however, has now been cast.

“Gentlemen, you have served my father well. I expect you to serve me just as well. Within the next fortnight, each of your ministries must prepare a position paper outlining your considerations in regards to the nationality question in general and the Armenian question in particular. I also expect all of you, not just de-Giers, to prepare a similar position paper regarding our foreign policy aims in Anatolia and the Near East (3) taking our own nationalities question into consideration.

You must not be afraid of questioning old assumptions or suggesting a change of course. I will study your reccomendations and we shall reconvene a fortnight later to discuss them and chart a new course. But make no mistake. It is I, and not the ghost of my father who is at the helm. That will be all.”

The ministers and council members are eyeing each other as they rise and leave. He takes careful note of those who seem most troubled. They are most likely to become obstructionist and will need to be replaced. He does not think any of them have the steel or connections needed to plan a coup… but perhaps it is time to have a talk with uncle Nicholas.


(1) The Zemstvo system has only been applied to the “Russian” lands of the empire, which includes Right Bank Ukraine but not most of the lands acquired in the Polish partitions, Finland (Which has it’s own, better developed, representative system), the Transcaucaus or, of course, Central Asia. Not sure how the Baltics fit in.
(2) The means by which municipal council are elected/appointed in Imperial Russia, especially outside Russia proper, is not exactly democratic to say the least. Needless to say, Jews are excluded entirely but they are not alone. Even where Great Russians are thin on the ground their gentry seem to dominate most municipal governments.
(3) That’s the Balkans and the straits.
 
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So, how many of the Ministers think this is all just a front to excuse a future invasion of the Ottomans or Persians to seize their Armenian occupied lands?
 

yboxman

Banned
So, how many of the Ministers think this is all just a front to excuse a future invasion of the Ottomans or Persians to seize their Armenian occupied lands?

Most. And to some extent it is. George is young ("Energetic") and in spite of Witte's advice and his own rational calculations prone to subconsciously viewing the amount of land formally under his rule as being a measure of Russia's strength.

This is contrary to his father's very sensible policy of economic development and commercial penetration and arouses considerable opposition.

P.S. Not many Armenians left in Persia. After 1825 a population exchange took place and most of the remaining Christians are Assyrians.
 

yboxman

Banned
#11 1894d:War and peace

July 1894 St Petersburg

There were new faces on the council of ministers. Sergei Witte was now formal Chairman, as well as retaining his previous position as minister of Finance.

Duronvo was the greatest obstacle of course. Fortunately, his deputy, Dmitry Spiryagin, was viewed by both George and Sergei Witte as a sufficiently competent and flexible replacement and, just as importantly, as one who would be acceptable to the lower rungs of the ministry of interior.

Finding a replacement for De Giers had been more problematic. The conscientious statesman had resigned on his own, after several personal interviews made clear his personal views were incompatible with the Tsar’s own views. His protégé, Vladimir Lamsdorf was viewed as too close to his mentor. Accordingly, George made the controversial step of appointing Mikhail Nikolayevich Muravyov, who had made a favorable impression on Tsar George and the other Romanovs during his family visits in Copenhagen (1).

The ancient minister of war, Pyotr Semyonovich Vannovskiy had also been replaced with the sometimes brilliant Alexei Kuropatkin. Whatever their personal views might be the new ministers owed their positions to his personal intervention. George had made clear to all the new appointees he expected their honest input (2), but unlike the men they replaced he was fairly confident they would not seek to carry on the prior agendas of their respective ministries blindly or obstruct any change of course for the sake of it.

Together with Witte and Vladimir Karlovich he now had a solid base of support in the council of ministers. George was uneasily aware, however, that he remains a naif in many of the issues confronting the empire.

“Gentlemen, I well understand that our foreign policy for the past 15 years has been dedicated to maintaining the statues quo in the straits and the Ottoman empire. My question is- why?”

Witte, most secure in his position, is the first to answer.

“Your majesty, when your grandfather went to war against the Ottoman empire he enjoyed the initial sympathy of all of Europe and gurantees of support from Austria. He spent much blood and treasure on liberating Bulgaria. For two years our southern trade was halted, cuasing grave financial difficulties. And to what end? The powers of Europe intervened against us. Bulgaria was confined north of the Balkan mountains and eventually slipped out of our orbit. All we won was Kars, Bessarbia and the enmity of Roumania. Meanwhile, the Austrians who had not shed a single drop of blood, lay claim to two provinces much richer than our own- and gained just as much influence with Bulgaria as we did.”

“Let us not forget, as well, the social disruptions excaberated by the war.” Adds Muravyov. “Since the wars with Napoleon every single war we had been engaged in has resulted in revolutionary activity. Activity, I may add, which endangers the throne considerably more than an oriental potentate with a half modernized army”.

“Your majesty, the view of the Foreign ministry has traditionally been that until such time as Russia is better positioned to gain full control of the straits, any diminshment of Ottoman strength would only serve to strengthn the position of the Crimean coalition, and risk the freedom of our Black sea trade.” Muravyov weighs in.

“This is all good and well. But I find this argument uncompelling. Let us suppose that we find ourselves at war with Britain and that the Ottomans fulfill our hopes and not only remain neautral but keep the Straits open for trade. Would The British, From their base in Cyprus not simply place a blockade south of the straits? We could not hope to challenge such a blockade, could we not Alexsyev?”

“Well… no. I’m afraid that even with a base in the Mediterranean we could not hope to accomplish this aim. With our French alliance however…”

“An alliance which is directed against Germany. And Austria. If, god forbid, we should find ourselves at war with both those powers and Britain, I dare say a blockade of the straits would be the least of our worries- and not one we could counter. But even, assuming the most optimistic case, we are at war with Britain alone, and with France as our ally, and with Italy and Japan not weighing in against us, can we depend on the French to dominate the Eastern Meditirantian? That is, after all, where the British fleet is concentrated and with the Suez Canal open it canbe easily reinforced.”

Alexsyev looks distinctly unhappy but answers gamely.

“No your majesty. Under these circumstances we must also expect to be blockaded in the Aegean.”

“Very well. Let us consider the more likely possibility. Namely, that we are at war with Germany and Austria with France as an ally. If the straits are under the influence of England and France they are no more likely to be closed than if the Ottomans are sole arbiters of the straits. Indeed, it seems to me more likely that the Ottomans, if in sole control, shall close the straits at the first sign of reverses by our armies.

Like it or not, from the day Ivan Grozny broke the power of the Tartar khanates, the Sultans have viewed Russia as a threat- and rightly so. Have we not advanced southwards against his vassals? Have we not expelled the Circassians, subjugated the Crimeans and freed the Georgians and the people of the Balkans from his Yoke? Regardless of who heads the sublime porte he must seek to curtail the Power of Russia whenever he may and make common cause with our enemies- even as they did with the Corsican antichrist.”

Kuropatkin discreetly coughs. “Your majesty, if you are considering an intervention in Anatolia I must point out that the terrain in question is not condusive to a decisive campaign. There is a reason, after all, why past commanders have favored campaigning against Istanbul from the Balkan direction in spite of the complications involved. The Balkan route is now assuredly closed to us. The congress of Berlin, Rumania’s attitude, and the triple alliance make that abundantly clear. So I must advance through the Rugged terrain and mule tracks of Eastern Anatolia.

To be sure, I, unlike my predeccesors, possess a good rail connection to Tbilisi and need not be concerned with Circassian Mujahidin at my rear but at best I can expect to advance to Erezum by the time the snows of winter block the passes- if I initiate a campaign this August. I am not a political man, of course, but I do not think that will be enough to bring the Ottomans to terms. It may, however, be enough to bring about an intervention by the other great powers. We may have won, therefore, a reprieve for the Armenians, but we will have spent a great deal of blood and treasure for no great gain to Russia”

Witte weighs in once again. “And while good Kuropatkin is busy demolishing Ottoman hill forts and Lamsdorf is seeking to make the best of his gains in a second Berlin conference what will the Ottomans be doing? Blocking the straits to our shipping at harvest time, that’s what. And there goes half the state revenue for this year. Not to mention losses next year when farmers lack the capital to sow as much land, or confidence in having a market to sell their harvest to.”

George leans back, stymied. Still, these are the ministers he selected. If he can’t trust their opinion, whose can he trust?

“Very well gentlemen. You have made your views clear and they have my confidence. Let us, however, explore options lying between invading Anatolia singlehandedly and doing nothing. Can we agree that the Ottomans are in clear violation of provision 61 of the treaty of Berlin (3)?”

Muravyov nods “Without a doubt. But what of it? This requires not our recognition but that of the other great powers.”

“We are allied with France, are we not? And the British, at least, seem genuinely outraged with Ottoman atrocities.” Says George, tapping a copy of the London times (4)

Muravyov ruefully shakes his head. “Their press was outraged at the Bulgarian horrors as well. Gladstone was leader of the opposition then. What did he say? That “It was time the Turks be driven out of Europe, "bag and baggage."”. That indeed seemed to be the general sentiment. Then your grandfather sent his armies south end the horrors (5). Then it was

We don't want to fight but by Jingo if we do,
We've got the ships, we've got the men, we've got the money too,
We've fought the Bear before, and while we're Britons true,
The Russians shall not have Constantinople.

The British public sentiment is fickle and can not be relied on. In any long campaign, it will turn in the direction of the British raison d'État”

“But in a short campaign might they not be deflected into measures contrary to their national interest? Britain intervened in cooperation with France in Lebanon in 1840 and then again in 1860, did it not?”

Kuropatkin coughs. “But how will such an intervention be in our best interest?”

George spreads his hands. “Suppose we introduce into the Six Vilayets, and perhaps Trebizond and Cilicia as well an autonomous administration with an Armenian or Greek governor and gendarmerie? Let us even suppose it is trained by Swiss or Belgian officers rather than our own. Kuropatkin, you have said you could not hope to penetrate farther than Erezum if you launch an invasion of Ottoman Armenia from your current starting lines. How far might you penetrate if the Ottomans are barred from garrisoning troops in the Six Vilayets and a friendly Armenian gendarmerie holds the roads and the passes?”

Kuropatkin scratches his beard. “Farther. Much farther. Even if most of our armies were engaged in war with Germany. I see your point- the Ottomans would think twice about closing the straits if their Northeastern frontier lay open to invasion.”

“And what is to stop the Ottomans from closing the straits if threatened with the imposition of such a regime?” Asks Witte incredulously (6)

“We would need to reach an agreement with Britain, and France as well, to forestall such a possibility. We may not have the ability, or diplomatic freedom of action, to seize Tsargard on our own, but a joint task force from both south and North would not be something The Sublime porte is likely to risk.”

Muravyov shakes his head. “What is to stop the British and the French from remaining once this crisis is done?”

George shrugs. “What if they do? They do not need to hold the straits to block our commerce in case of war. And our forces, and the French, will be there as well and more easily reinforced than theirs. Perhaps we might even invite the other great powers. The more powers has their fingers in the pot, the less able any single one of them will be able to close them against our will- or tolerate the entrance of foreign warships into them.”

“You realize this means giving up on the age old dream of seizing the straits, Tsargard and Hagia Sophia for Russia?”

“That dream is a fantasy. If we sought to achieve that aim we would merely set ourselves against Austria, Germany and Britain combined. Nor would Italy, Greece, Bulgaria or even France view such an aim with favor. Is this not so?”.

Muravyov nods. It is a well known truth- but not one that any Tsar or minister is comfortable admitting. Still… “your majesty, are we not putting the cart before the horses? Is there any reason to believe, beyond, a few headlines in “The London Times”, that the Gladstone ministry will cooperate with your designs?”

Tsar George smiles. After a moment Muravyov sighs. “I suppose I had best contact the British ambassador.”

“Quite. And perhaps the French and Italian ambassadors as well. We might offer the Italians our support for their designs on Tripoli in return for their cooperation. It might be beneficial to unofficialy sound out the Balkan states as well. Just in case the Ottomans do not see reason.”

(1) George has a perhaps unfortunate tendency to prefer appointing younger ministers in their 40s-50s whom he is personally familiar with. On the one hand, this means greater resentment in the seniority based bueacracy and often less experienced and connected ministers. On the other hand, it also means ministers who are not mentally stuck in the Napoleonic wars and who are somewhat more familiar with modern technology and political trends. It also means his ministers are likely to have longer terms of service since they are not constantly falling over with senility and heart attacks.
(2) At this time he even mostly means it.
(3) “The Sublime Porte undertakes to carry out, without further delay, the improvements and reforms demanded by local requirements in the provinces inhabited by Armenians, and to guarantee their security against the Circassians and Kurds. It will periodically make known the steps taken to this effect to the powers, who will superintend their application”
(4) During his exile in Georgia, George regularly was an avid reader of international press, German, French and British. Nicholas II… was not.
(5) Which largely started due to the resettlement of Circassians he ethnically cleansed in Bulgaria. But no need to quibble, right?
(6) You can see what he is focused on.
 
Finished the last of my college interviews, had a great dinner, and look, an update by yboxman.
Life is groot. :D
 
Great TL so far.

Russia's new pro-Armenian position is pretty far-sighted. Or at least the last update makes it sound that way.
 
Caught up on the updates. Looks like Russia is seeking backing for George wishes' to how well he may succeed and what Russia may have to promise for this will have to wait. Hopefully any future Armenian genocides can be diverted.
 
Excellent updates. A quick typo alert- the second-to-last update has a reference to the "Grand Duchy of Finaland" which you probably want to fix before it gets locked in.


Also: it's Mingrellians, not Mingerellians, yes?

Otherwise, fascinating as ever.
 
The convention of Vladivostok seemingly had little effect on the balance of power in Eurasia. The Japanese were forced to cede the Kuriles and fishing rights in the sea of Okhotsk, as well as consent to the temporary demilitarization of Hokaido, but fended off Russian demands for occupation of Tsunshima and Okinawa.

What definition of Kuriles are you using?
I have heard that the present-day South Kuriles, called Northern territories by Japanese were once considered not part of the Kuril Islands.

By the way, are you going to continue your "Greater Israel, death to Turkey and Iran"-TL?

Russo-Japanese alliance? :eek:

IOTL they were allied in North-East Asia after the war.
 
P.S. Not many Armenians left in Persia. After 1825 a population exchange took place and most of the remaining Christians are Assyrians.
Alright. Just mentioned them because of Persia being mentioned as a place they were in. How are the Pontic Greeks viewed?
 

yboxman

Banned
What definition of Kuriles are you using?
I have heard that the present-day South Kuriles, called Northern territories by Japanese were once considered not part of the Kuril Islands..


Russia, as mentioned in post #4, annexed the Kuriles to the 1945 "Stalin line". In other words- all of them up to the shores of Hokaido.




IOTL they were allied in North-East Asia after the war.

During WWI you mean? or do you mean something else? if so, link/sources please.

By the way, are you going to continue your "Greater Israel, death to Turkey and Iran"-TL?

I had some really good scenes with Maayan Nevo/Ayn Rand planned but...No. Or not for a while and not here. Why?

1. http://wiki.alternatehistory.com/doku.php/offtopic/joatsimeon. https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=1095103&postcount=106. http://wiki.alternatehistory.com/doku.php/offtopic/yonatan. https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?p=9445957#post9445957. Enough said.

2. With ISIS, Assad, Putin and everything else in the neighborhood it was getting too damn depressing and draining me of inspiration. I mean, you set up to write a frankly dystopic TL and what happens? A two bit Anglo-Jihadist puts it all on live-cam.

3. That TL was NOT aimed at fulfilling some kind of "Greater Israel, death to Turkey and Iran" fantasy. It was aimed at:
a. exploring the real world plausability of actually making Israel, in it's maximum semi-plausible bounds, a homeland for the majority of the world's Jews within the limits of early 20th century technology.
b. Tangents of likely societal development with the external existential threat which defined OTL Israeli society replaced by internal stress caused by resource limitations.
c. Examining how the world would develop if the European civil war known as WWI would end before the old order had not been totally overthrown (No Russian or German revolution, no breakup of AH, no universal suffarage in UK, Germany or Italy) and how Jews, a Jewish state, and other "non white" people would fare within the mores of an "old-new world".
d. Generally delve into individual and collective decision making and justification under conditions of extreme stress.

I'm not sure I succeeded in getting my main theme across. Israel may simply be a topic too emotional for rational analysis and discussion.

4. I do harbor some faint ambition of developing one of my TLs into publishable work once I finish my damn PhD. "Mound of spring" would have a appeal to a limited audience and would risk branding me the wrong way. I think I'm better off sticking to Vikings, Conquistadors and Maya-Norse hybrids for my first attempt at publication. So my main focus, once I advance TTL to it's logical end point, is going to be "1492".

Maybe if and after I establish myself with a few other works I might redig the Mound of Spring. Perhaps by then the situation here will be less depressing. Realistically, though, probably not.
 
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yboxman

Banned
Excellent updates. A quick typo alert- the second-to-last update has a reference to the "Grand Duchy of Finaland" which you probably want to fix before it gets locked in.


Also: it's Mingrellians, not Mingerellians, yes?

Otherwise, fascinating as ever.

Thanks! fixed.

And if you or anyone else notices typos and spelling errors please take me up on it. Nothing I find more irritating than trudging through a otherwise good TL filled with such errors.
 

yboxman

Banned
#11 1894e: road to war

Korea, Seoul, August 1894

Yuan Shi-Kai is positively chortling. It had taken the Korean government more time than he had expected, but the growing strength of the southern Jeob, and the inability of the local government forces to deal with them, had finally forced Queen Min and her clique to request military aid from China (1).

His Guanxi was sufficient to ensure that the Beyang army, HIS army, would be amply supplied and manned, and that the navy would be on standby to forestall any Japanese intervention.

Once the rebels are crushed, and Korea brought fully into the Qing orbit, his position at court will be invincible.

St Petersburg, Russian empire, September 1894

“I’m afraid that an agreement with the British eludes us.” Muravyov reports dutifully. He does not say “I told you so”, not quite, but the words are clearly there.

“Where does the difficulty lie?”

“The British quite agree to presenting the Ottomans with an ultimatum for reform. They even agree to military intervention in the Six Vilayets.”

“So what is the problem?”

“They suggest the best way this may be achieved is by sending the British fleet into the Black sea.”

George stares at his foreign minister.

”They do realize that The Six Vilayets are separated from the Black sea coast by some of the steepest mountains in Asia, do they not? Are they planning to sail their ships up those mountains? What in god’s name led them to believe that we could conceivably agree to opening the straits to foreign warships?”

Muravyov snorts

“ I may, perhaps, have pointed this out. I also pointed out that Any breach of the neautrality of the straits would be an absolute violation of the international conventions regarding them, and would be permissible only in case of open war against the Ottoman empire (2). I suggested instead an Anglo-French operation in Cilicia and an expedition up the Tigris to Assyria to complement our actions in Armenia.”

“And?”

“They shall take these suggestions under advisement.”

Tsar George I releases a few choice curses.

“By the time they will have made up their minds winter will have blocked the passes.”


“Yes. That may be the point. I fear Roseberry is not as Keen on the Armenian question as Gladstone is.”

George paces the room for a moment. Then he stops and smiles.

“What if we surprise them?”

“Your majesty?”

“What if we say yes?”

“Allow British ships into the Black sea? Your majesty, our policy for the past generation is…”

“Outdated. The days when the British Marines could besiege Sevastopol before our railways concentrate an overwhelming force against them are over.”

“Still!”

"Oh, I don’t suggest an unqualified yes. Let their ship enter the Black sea for a demonstration outside Trebizond… and our ships pass into the Mediterranean for a demonstration outside Cilicia. Suggest a joint occupation of the straits to ensure the safe passage of our respective fleets and the safety of the Christians of Istanbul. It is better for our naval interests for the straits to be open in both direction in times of peace than closed.”

“The Rosebery ministry will never agree to this!”

“Well, no. But they will certainly be embarrassed by refusing. Not quite fair play, as the British put it, to demand a breach of an existing treaty in only one direction. Especially if I provide an interview to the Times in which I outline this suggestion”

Muravyov Guffaws. “And what will this achieve, besides embarrassing Rosebery?”

“Perhaps nothing. Or perhaps it will lead him to accept our earlier proposals. It will certainly strengthen their conservative opposition… And Salisbury seems far more likely to cooperate with us on the Armenian question. ”
George resumes his restless pacing before he speaks again.

“I think a personal visit to the refugee camps in Yerevan is in order. It will help draw international attention to the Armenian question and increase the pressure on both the Ottomans and Rosebery as well. It might be politic to provide invitations to a number of leading European figures and journalists to join this visit. Gladstone, in particular.”

Muravyov blinks. The Tsar, it seems, does nothing by half measures.

“Anyone else? The pope perhaps or the king of Spain?”

Muravyov was joking. That, unfortunately, is a dangerous thing to do around Tsar George I.

“Capital Idea. And perhaps my royal cousins from England. And Denmark and Germany as well. And it seems to me a good Idea to extend an invitation to Cousin William and Franz Ferdinand as well. And perhaps the Balkan and Italian monarchs. Not that I expect most to come, but they will very nearly be forced to send some suitable representative. It seems to me a good chance to sound their respective governments out in favorable settings- and it will, of course, further pressure them to support action against the Ottomans. A shame about the refugees of course”

“Your majesty?”

“Well, we need to make sure they are still in the camps when the dignitaries arrive. Wouldn’t do to have them comfortably resettled before hand. Well, I suppose Witte and Spiryagin will need some additional time to locate and prepare land for resettlement outside Transcaucasia.”

“Outside Transcaucasia?”

“Of course. Can’t have them further consolidating the Armenian majority in Yerevan, or picking fight with our own Tartars (3), can we? Witte is locating land in the Transcaspian region. It’s Turcoman population has yet to recover from the conquest. Others will be resettled in the Crimea, NovyRussia , Odessa and Moldova. Too late in the year to have them resettled in the TranUssuri. More’s the shame, with this Korean rebellion heating up relations between Japan and China.”

“Should we perhaps offer to mediate the dispute?”

“On the contrary, this is the last thing we want to do. If China occupies Korea, then it will have made an Enemy of Japan, an enemy we can use, should we come to blows with the Qing over railway rights in Northern Manchuria and elsewhere. If Japan goes to war it will likely lose- they simply lack the warships to secure the Tsunshima straits. But they will bleed China even so and leave it with fewer resources to secure Northern Manchuria. Any conflict which weakens the two Asian powers is in our best interest as neither possesses the strength to fully knock the other out.”


Tokyo, Japanese Empire, October 1894

Prime minister Itagaki Taisuke silently curses. He had won the elections, and his appointment by the emperor, with a promise to cut taxes. And so he had done in 1892 and 1893, economizing wherever he could to meet the demands of the Russian indemnity. These measures had won him increased popularity amongst his base, and particularly with the peasantry, and he hoped to capitalize upon that to widen the electoral franchise. To do that, however, he had to appease the army.

He had cautiously increased defense expenditures for 1894 and with the
Yoshino finally arrived (4) Japan was no longer in a helpless military position. Still, the litanies of the generals and admirals about insufficient training and low stocks of shells had made their impression on him. He knew, and knew all too well

Unfortunately, to gain and keep power he had to make a number of unsavory deals. And now he had to face the consequences.

“The Qing are encroaching on our position in Korea and what are we doing? Nothing! When will you act? When? What are you waiting for”

Mitsuru Toyama was livid with rage. And he was not a man to cross. It was his gunmen who had helped… ease the transition of rule from the old Meiji Oligarchy. His goons which had broken up their rallies. His connections which won him some reprieve from the wrath of the military at the cutbacks.

And now he was demanding his due. Itagaki knows he cannot refuse him. If he does he will be replaced by either the ballot or the bullet. What is especially galling is the suspicion that Toyama had instigated this crisis by supplying the Tonghak rebels with arms.

“I am waiting, I was waiting, for the position of Russia. And of Britain. To launch a war against China is a great endevour indeed.”

“Was waiting? Are you finally done seeking the approval of the West?”

“I am. I have authorized the navy to land 10,000 marines at Fusan to protect our commercial interests and to remain there until such time as we reach an acceptable understanding regarding our respective spheres of influence in Korea with the Qing (5).”

Toyama argues. He tries to push for all out war. But Itagaki holds firm. There will be no war for now. only muscular negotiation.

(1) Unlike OTL, where they asked for Japanese and Chinese help simultaneously.
(2) Obviously, Russia is worried less about Legalisms and more about keeping the Black sea it’s own naval preserve.
(3) By which he means the Azeris.
(4) September 1893 OTL. Only March 1894 TTL.
(5) Compared to a massive landing at Inchon OTL, accompanied with immediate vying for naval dupermacy in the Yellow sea. TTL the Chinese Nanyang and Beyang fleets are concentrated together, have replenished shell stocks (Ie; not full of sawdust) and the Japanese fleet is short 2 of the 4 leading protected cruisers and undertrained to boot.
 
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Come to think of it, what did people used to think of as Tartars? All Muslims in the Russian empire? Siberians? Those thought to be of Mongol descent?
 
Come to think of it, what did people used to think of as Tartars? All Muslims in the Russian empire? Siberians? Those thought to be of Mongol descent?
According to Brockhaus and Efron's Dictionary, the Tatars were a vaguely defined group including some (but not all) Muslim peoples speaking Turkic tongues. It lists following ethnicities as "Tatar": Altai Tatars (now known as Khakas and Altaians - these are actually two different peoples), West Siberian Tatars (now known as Siberian Tatars), Caucasian Tatars (who we know as Azeris), Kazan Tatars, Astrakhan Tatars and Crimean Tatars (all still known as such even now).
 

yboxman

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According to Brockhaus and Efron's Dictionary, the Tatars were a vaguely defined group including some (but not all) Muslim peoples speaking Turkic tongues. It lists following ethnicities as "Tatar": Altai Tatars (now known as Khakas and Altaians - these are actually two different peoples), West Siberian Tatars (now known as Siberian Tatars), Caucasian Tatars (who we know as Azeris), Kazan Tatars, Astrakhan Tatars and Crimean Tatars (all still known as such even now).

Aye. The QIng/Manchu/Bannermen were also frequently referred to as "Tartars" by 19th century Europeans. It was often used synomnously with any Nomadic, or recent nomad people Between the Don and the Pacific.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartary

Only the Volga, West Siberian and Crimean Tartars seem to be pedominantly "descended" (in terms of the dominant political elites derivation) from the "Tartars" conquered by Ghnegis Khan.
 
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