Map Thread XIII

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Very nice, and sounds like an interesting setting: something along the lines of Edelstein's post-Westphalianism develops, or was there never a "Westphalian consensus" in the first place in this TL?

There's no Westphalian concensus, as the 30YW failed to be more than 5 years, and a multinational crusade against the Ottoman Empire is 'successful' (Vienna is only mostly sacked) there's less immediate need for strict sovereignty.
 

Dorozhand

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I don't love dystopia, I just made one because I got the basemap from Rvbomally himself. :p

I think I'll make a true dystopia eventually, it feels like I could do better.

Also you mention the Qing Dynasty when you're PoD is in 1492, during the Ming. Great Qing is almost certainly butterflied in this scenario.

Furthermore, Ming China in the late 15th early 16th century could have crushed the Spanish like a bug. In fact, China probably could have invaded Europe to bring its backwater petty kingdoms into the tributary system in this world.
 
Also you mention the Qing Dynasty when you're PoD is in 1492, during the Ming. Great Qing is almost certainly butterflied in this scenario.

Furthermore, Ming China in the late 15th early 16th century could have crushed the Spanish like a bug. In fact, China probably could have invaded Europe to bring its backwater petty kingdoms into the tributary system in this world.

Okay, that needs to be made a map.
 
Also you mention the Qing Dynasty when you're PoD is in 1492, during the Ming. Great Qing is almost certainly butterflied in this scenario.

Furthermore, Ming China in the late 15th early 16th century could have crushed the Spanish like a bug. In fact, China probably could have invaded Europe to bring its backwater petty kingdoms into the tributary system in this world.

I am inclined by all means to agree with this. I'm also befuddled on as to how Portugal could take Japan; especially with the Europeans not having the Americas to grow rich off of (give or take Portugal was mostly into Africa and the Indian Ocean, but that's beside the point for the others). As it stands there was hardly any real technological gap between the two at the time, and Japan was bigger, more populated, had the home advantage, and was more militarized then any European power. Not only that, but a Japan that keeps itself open is likely to be richer and more advanced then otls (which could have easily shrugged any European invasion off at this time anyways)
 
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I am inclined by all means to agree with this. I'm also befuddled on as to how Portugal could take Japan; especially with the Europeans not having the Americas to grow rich off of (give or take Portugal was mostly into Africa and the Indian Ocean, but that's beside the point for the others). As it stands there was hardly any real technological gap between the two at the time, and Japan was bigger, more populated, had the home advantage, and was more militarized then any European power. Not only that, but a Japan that keeps itself open is likely to be richer and more advanced then otls (which could have easily shrugged any European invasion off at this time anyways)

Meh, I really didn't put any thought into it. I just saw the basemap and wanted to make something out of it. I can't say it's realistic, but I had fun making it.
 
I'm not totally certain about that wordla map. Some of those mountain ranges seem exaggerated while others seem muted. I'd try to find some other sources to check.
For what it's worth, Europe and most of the continental US were done by hand (my very tired hand), and they're the only considerable parts that are definitely mostly accurate; the rest was done by other people with some black box computer magic that had some very definitely wrong results in some places and therefore I don't trust them elsewhere.
 
p1uKyZN.png

The Frankish Empire and al-Andalus in 805 A.D. are ISOTed to our present-day era. Berlin, Paris, Rome, Bern, Vienna, half of Budapest, Amsterdam, Brussels, Luxembourg, Madrid, and other major European banking, political, and cultural centers have been reverted to medieval and hostile versions of themselves- looks like the economy's going to go again.
 
The Frankish Empire and al-Andalus in 805 A.D. are ISOTed to our present-day era. Berlin, Paris, Rome, Bern, Vienna, half of Budapest, Amsterdam, Brussels, Luxembourg, Madrid, and other major European banking, political, and cultural centers have been reverted to medieval and hostile versions of themselves- looks like the economy's going to go again.

Was Al-Andulus at a Christian Majority at that point? I was under the impression that had been the case throughout it's entire existence (with a Muslim ruling elite and sizable Jewish population), if so it'd be interesting to see how it plays out when exposure to modern society breaks down the feudal order. And oh god that poor, poor rump Germany...It's like Karl Dönitz' Reich

It seems to me that Budapest always gets split in half in these sort of scenarios

Meh, I really didn't put any thought into it. I just saw the basemap and wanted to make something out of it. I can't say it's realistic, but I had fun making it.

That's the main thing I guess, sorry if that seemed a little harsh :(
 
I say the Canadian portions get their own dominion. As for Iran and Iraq... I have my doubts that the Soviets would be especially successful. If they can't defeat Finland, how can they hope to march an army across such vast areas of desert and mountains?

I had my doubts about the Soviets too, as even a well led army equipped with good logistics for the era would have trouble occupying even those areas. But I was also making the map at 3 AM. Also, thanks for telling me about how to deal with Canadian ISOTs. :)
 
That's the main thing I guess, sorry if that seemed a little harsh :(

Naw, it's all good. I really like criticism on my maps, so I appreciate it. I did think it was a little bit more plausible than this, but I also didn't check any of my facts, so I do thank you for correcting my wrongness.
 
Talking of dystopias, here's my map for the latest MotF, the nations of a post-collapse Australia!

BUWLXJU.png
 
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While we're all throwing these ideas around, I think this is a great scenario for a map game. If someone could make all the nations of some age (Ideally 1492 I suppose as it would be the meeting of Columbus with China and the like. (Maybe Japan first?) It could be quite fun, though there is little we can do with a blank basemap save a CoaW, which is fine, but I believe it could be more interesting as a traditional map game.
 
The basemap is in the other planets thread and believe it or not this idea has been a couple map games in the past, just with a cropped map normal msp.
 
Saudi and Iran are watching each other across Euphrates...

UAR focusing on rebuilding the known oil location and Suez Canal.

Hungaria can into Sea!

Don't tell German what the current border look like.

Technically not divided but Four zones to build modern infrastructures.

Romania is angry they did not get spo- new land like Hungarian...

Hungarian feel stupid now that they must build the modern infrastructures themself.

Russian built weapons are found in Military of UAR hands...Something USA can not help but to notice

Some population of Belarus are petitioning to join Russia

How did Russia even get Anatolia? I mean in the map you made Russia not only ate Anatolia, but also the rump Georgia and Azerbaijan too! Russia has zero claims to the region and with the fact there are 0 slavs in the Roman Empire at this point in time they can't even use their usual flimsy excuse of "Protecting Russians in danger!".

I get there would be attempts at regaining lands by many nations, but you can't just up and annex vast swathes of land nowadays for a reason. Besides with the fact that the Empires lands is full of pagans who share nothing in terms of culture or religion with their conquerors, things would get ugly fast. I feel especially bad for any pagans near Islamic states, Islam has a terrible track record with non-monotheistic peoples.
 
This one's for Faeelin. Some ideas stolen from some older TLs around here.

In this world the Vandal invasion of North Africa failed to come off, [1] and a western Empire keeping hold of its resources and navy was in better condition to hold onto at least the lands around the Western med. Part of Spain was held against the Suevi and the Visigoths (the Suevi would eventually ally with the Romans against the stronger Visigoths) and without Odoacer's takeover of Italy the Eastern Romans didn't push the Ostrogoths to invade Italy (they would remain in the Balkans, ruling over Dacia and Illyricum south of Noricum until the era of the Avars.

The eastern Empire has had troubles of its own: the whole Justinian mess was avoided, but that just gave it an opportunity to get in another round of exhausting wars with Persia, there were still plagues, and religious disputes between Constantinople and Egypt & Syria still festered, so when a combination of overpopulation, opportunistic state building, and instability kicked off by Ethiopian expansion brought about a non-Muslim but still energetic Arab "surge", both the East Romans and the Persians suffered serious losses. Fortunately, it looks like the Arab expansion may have been a flash in the pan, and the Emperor in Constantinople is pondering whether to try to reconquer Syria or maybe do something about those pesky Goths.

There have been efforts to dynastically reunite east and west, but they've fallen through: with the western and eastern Emperors effectively the heads of their churches (the Bishop of Rome is still only first among equals in the western church) and their clergy holding some divergent ideas on the nature of the Divine, a religious element has entered into the already existent Latin-Greek split, although things are still fairly cordial at this point.

With the Mediterranean still a unified economic area, the economies of places like southern Italy and Mediterranean *Gaul are doing better, and there is a denser network of Maratime trade. Of course, it's a bit unclear as to whether southern Spain and North Africa are really economically doing better under Romans than they would be OTL under the Muslims, but at least things are politically a bit more stable. Even in the North, the Dark Ages are a little less dark.

Italy was still a target of Germanic invaders, with the Alemanni, which OTL just got folded into the Frankish Empire, establishing themselves in the north: the western Emperors moved to the safer location of Carthage, behind the screen of their navy, although they never entirely lost southern Italy. In Spain, some three hundred years of off and on conflicts finally ended in victory over the Ostrogoths, which proved in some ways a bit of a wash, since by the 770s it looked like this would only lead to the Franks replacing the Visigoths as the Empire's principal bete noire...
 
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