2001: A Space Time Odyssey (Version 2)

I'm extremly confused.

You lost me when you guys started talking about nuclear propuslion. Help plz.

From this post:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=11152353&postcount=142

Option B from the Space Task Group Study was chosen for the NASA follow on to Apollo and the Lunar Landing missions. As quoted:

"Option B
Space Shuttle: 1976
Space Tug: 1978
Nuclear Shuttle: 1978

Space Station 12 Person: 1976
Space Base crew of 50: 1980
Space Base crew of 100: 1985

Lunar Orbit Base: 1978
Lunar Surface Base: 1980
First Mars Expedition: 1983
Under the option that would land men on Mars in 1983, the federal space budget would increase to $4.2 billion in fiscal 1971—up by $500 million from the fiscal 1970 budget request—to $4.8 billion in fiscal 1972, $6 billion in fiscal 1973, and almost $7 billion in fiscal 1974. The final decision whether to go ahead with the Mars landing would be made in 1974 if the foregoing timetable were adopted. A favorable decision would mean that the space budget would climb to $7.7 billion in fiscal 1975 and continue to increase over the following five years to a peak of $9.4 billion in fiscal 1980."

Under that option the "Nuclear Shuttle" indicates a NERVA propelled Earth-orbit-to-Lunar-orbit shuttle for cargo and crew mostly so NASA could get experience with on-orbit operations of the NERVA in preparation for a future Mars and other planetary missions using NERVA propulsion.

Several people have had qualms about NASA going nuclear and more specifically about operations and economics of nuclear propulsion for Cis-Lunar flight but the actual "use" is secondary to gaining experience with nuclear space propulsion for long-term use.

As a partial aside "I" personally have considered much of the "canon" 2001 technology and background as "artistic license" on Kubrick's part as it quite obvious it wouldn't work in any sort of "real life" situation. For example the "Pan Am Clipper" shuttle is unworkable as designed. There is simply no room for propellant. However if you "assume" the windows aren't really there (they wouldn't be) and some other changes it could easily be a modification of the earlier IRLV (http://www.pmview.com/spaceodysseytwo/spacelvs/sld018.htm) with drop tanks Shuttle concept. Depending on what kind of booster you include...

Similarly the Ares 1B is NOT a nuclear shuttle (design is all wrong for that) but I can see it being a commercial all chemical design. With methalox rather than hydrolox engines :)

Does that help or hinder?

Randy
 
RanulfC, Nixon has taken Option C

Option C
Space Shuttle: 1977
Space Tug: 1981
Nuclear Shuttle: 1981

Space Station 12 Person: 1977
Space Base crew of 50: 1984
Space Base crew of 100: 1990

Lunar Orbit Base: 1981
Lunar Surface Base: 1983
First Mars Expedition: 1986

Adoption of a 1986 Mars landing goal—would keep NASA spending below $5 billion a year until fiscal 1975, when it would reach $5.5 billion.
Congress and the then-President would decide in 1978, under this timetable, whether to proceed with the Mars program.
If they did so, the NASA budget would mount to $6.6 billion in fiscal 1979 and to $7.7 billion the following year.
Peak annual expenditures of $8 billion a year would be required in the early 1980s


NERVA is transport backbone for Odyssey program

- moving heavy Cargo to Moon and back
- Transport the Manned Mars expedition and other ones.

yes we could fly those Mission chemical, but the logistic and cost are to high, for Launching dozen of Saturn INT-21 a year.
here is NERVA more economic, by two launch: refuel flight and Cargo, instead of 7~8 launches to fuel Chemical orbital Shuttle.

Alternative, we could fly personal to Moon orbit, by chemical with Space Tug
intriguing the IPP give that Option in early phase of Moon orbit base, seem some of them trusted not the NEVAR radioactive Radiation level.

While Space Tug will do work in earth orbit, move satellite to GEO or land as Lunar Tug on moon

The "Pan Am Clipper" official name Orion III, yep it missing fuel tanks
here the concept art for ORION III on launch pad by Robert McCall for "2001: a Space Odyssey"
what i can tell is that ASTO Space Shuttle need a Replacement in 1990s and there will be one.
 
I believe that the Orion III's launcher is known as the Orion I and is also used to launch the Orion II cargo variant. This would also be operated by the USAF to deploy their satellites and orbital nukes.
 
RanulfC, Nixon has taken Option C

I was close at least :)

NERVA is transport backbone for Odyssey program

- moving heavy Cargo to Moon and back
- Transport the Manned Mars expedition and other ones.

yes we could fly those Mission chemical, but the logistic and cost are to high, for Launching dozen of Saturn INT-21 a year.
here is NERVA more economic, by two launch: refuel flight and Cargo, instead of 7~8 launches to fuel Chemical orbital Shuttle.

As noted the BIG driver is going to be reactor and its reprocessing services, which ideally will be located on the Moon ;)

Alternative, we could fly personal to Moon orbit, by chemical with Space Tug
intriguing the IPP give that Option in early phase of Moon orbit base, seem some of them trusted not the NEVAR radioactive Radiation level.

If you look at the Atomic Rockets page it shows that once you have start-up you ALWAYS have to take into account a high-radiation situation awareness for a NERVA engine. The exhaust isn't radioactive once you solve the reactor ablation issues which the engineers were confident was solved so the only thing you have to worry about is the radioactive reactor itself which was HIGHLY radioactive and would remain so for a long time after shut down.

While Space Tug will do work in earth orbit, move satellite to GEO or land as Lunar Tug on moon

Which would be chemical and you're still going to have to have a significant propellant infrastructure built up to support these :)

The "Pan Am Clipper" official name Orion III, yep it missing fuel tanks
here the concept art for ORION III on launch pad by Robert McCall for "2001: a Space Odyssey"
what i can tell is that ASTO Space Shuttle need a Replacement in 1990s and there will be one.

While the illustration is nice it's still "just" art of a vehicle which won't work as designed. But again it's a movie not "real-life" anyway :)

I believe that the Orion III's launcher is known as the Orion I and is also used to launch the Orion II cargo variant. This would also be operated by the USAF to deploy their satellites and orbital nukes.

Very much "non-canon" but probably the most believable explanation for how the system should work. I believe this is where that concept came from:
http://www.planet3earth.co.uk/2001 page 5.htm

Have two external tanks flanking the Orion-III/II shuttle for its own propellant and that's pretty much how I imagine it would "work" though I doubt either booster or shuttle would be using hydrolox given the volume constraints.

Randy
 
Thank you. That did help.

Glad to help :)

On the launching of the Orion-III;

The tracks comment in the novel always made me think they were using some sort of air-breathing propulsion on the fist stage. (Doesn't have to be though, "catapult launch assist" in any form tends to help your payload to orbit at the cost of ground-side complexity :) ) But having read up on the history of hypersonic flight one wonder what could have been accomplished if we hadn't gotten hung-up on the wonderwaffen SCramjet? I mean it "sounds" great having an engine that can air-breath from zero to orbital speed but the reality by the early 1960s was quite clear in that doing so PRACTICALLY was going to be a very long, very hard slog in cutting edge engineering.

Now just a regular sub-sonic ramjet will work out to around Mach-8 at least if not Mach-10. Your main issue is going over Mach-5 with air-breathing runs into materials and design problems on you LAUNCH vehicle rather than your engine so keeping that in mind...

You need to get a ramjet up to speed to start, but we'd already had an almost flight ready Supercharged-Ejector-Ramjet (SERJ) using both H2O2/Kerosene (Keroxide for short) and hydrolox with test-bench speeds up to Mach-4/5 (respectively) AND a bench tested rocket engine that ran on deeply cooled air and hydrogen (which was tossed aside for liquefying the air instead to make LOX, ah lost opportunity :) ) so a track launched ejector-ramjet engine using deep cooled air and hydrogen with a expansion driven "fan-jet" engine for RTB would seem doable for a fist stage that take the Orion-II/III (cargo/passenger) space plane to Mach-5 to Mach-10 (straight rockets from Mach-5 to Mach-10 then stage) and 300,000ft.

I'd still see the Orion being methalox or cryo-propane/lox powered for smaller tanks though.

Randy
 

bookmark95

Banned
In this TL, are you going to feasibly up the rate of technological advancement to create the world of "A Space Odyssey?"

My POD for this scenario would be Arthur C. Clarke studying physics instead of writing science fiction.
 
In this TL, are you going to feasibly up the rate of technological advancement to create the world of "A Space Odyssey?"

My POD for this scenario would be Arthur C. Clarke studying physics instead of writing science fiction.

Yes, we try
in timeframe of 32 years can happen allot !
so many lost opportunities, that can be taken
 
Apollo 12: Last spaceflight of the decade

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Apollo 12, November 14th 1969
Being the last mission of a highly eventful year and the last mission of an even more eventful decade the engineers on Apollo-12 wanted to make the mission count. Launching on schedule on November 14th 1969, the Saturn V was taking off during a rainstorm storm. Thirty-six-and-a-half seconds after lift-off, the vehicle triggered a lightning discharge through itself and down to the earth through the Saturn's ionized plume. Protective circuits on the fuel cells in the service module falsely detected overloads and took all three fuel cells offline, along with much of the CSM instrumentation. A second strike at 52 seconds after launch knocked out the "8-ball" attitude indicator. The telemetry stream at Mission Control was garbled. However, the Saturn V continued to fly correctly as the strikes had not affected Saturn V's Instrument Unit.

This mission marked the second manned lunar landing of the Apollo program and the third manned lunar landing overall. After landing in the Ocean of Storms Charles Conrad and Alan Bean, performed several scientific work on the lunar surface. Bean's first words (presumably in response to the pin-point landing of Zond 12) exclaimed "yippee did you see that commies, we can do spot on landing too". This was televised nationwide to millions of people and was followed by a fit of coughing on NBC by Walter Cronkite.

The astronauts deployed an S-band antenna, solar wind composition experiment, the American flag and most important, the Apollo Lunar Surface Experiments Package (ALSEP) with a SNAP-27 atomic generator. This was done during thefirst EVA on November 19, 1969 (3h 56m). To improve the quality of television pictures from the Moon, a color camera was carried on Apollo 12 (unlike the monochrome camera that was used on Apollo 11). This gave Apollo 12 the distinction of being the fist mission to the Moon to be televised in high quality color.
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The second EVA was performed on November 20, 1969 (3h 49m) in which different samples were collected and photographic panoramas were obtained. Apollo 12 successfully landed within walking distance of the Surveyor 3 probe, which had landed on the lunar surface on April 20, 1967. Charles Conrad and Alan Bean took a picture of themselves next to the lander before removed pieces of the probe to be taken back to Earth for analysis. It is claimed that the common bacterium Streptococcus mitis was found to have accidentally contaminated the spacecraft's camera prior to launch and survived dormant in this harsh environment for two and a half years. However, this finding has since been disputed: see Reports of Streptococcus mitis on the Moon. All in all 34.4 kg of material gathered.

After 31.5 hours on the lunar surface launch to the Command Module Yankee Clipper with Richard Gordon in the moon orbit. Richard Gordon had completed a lunar multispectral photography experiment and photographed proposed future landing sites during that time. Intrepid's ascent stage was dropped (per normal procedures) after Charles Conrad and Alan Bean rejoined Richard Gordon in orbit. It impacted the Moon on November 20, 1969 at 3.94°S 21.20°W. The seismometers the astronauts had left on the lunar surface registered the vibrations for more than an hour. With both the color television film and the fantastic photo next to Surveyor (with the LM easily seen in the background) Apollo 12 was featured prominently in Time Magazine as a year end consolation to losing the Moon race.

A12LifeCover.jpg
 
1960s: The Highlights

The 1960s was a time of great change in social, political, technological and economic relationships worldwide but especially in the United States. The decade began with a series of crisises, the Berlin Crisis, the Brezhnev crisis [1], the Cuban crisis [2], the crisis in Vietnam, the assassination of the President of the United States (John F. Kennedy), the race riots, civil unrest, the Vietnam war etc.
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The Vietnam War was a particularly shocking blow to the United States. As the crisis following the death of Mao Zedong in China lead to increased militarism, the United States was forced to choose pullback and defeat or the risk of a Korea-like conflict sparking an all out nuclear conflict with the other leading communist power. Thankfully, Johnson chose the former although it likely cost him the Presidency as the Republicans swept into the White House at decades end[3].
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However the United States also made a equal if not greater degree of progress during the decade. Even as a barrier was arising in Berlin, other barriers were falling down. Religious barriers were broken as the first Catholic President of the United States was elected, racial barriers were broken as Martin Luther King Jr lead the civil rights movement, ultimately leading to the passage of the Civil Rights Act in 1964 (abolishing Jim Crow & Segregation), the Voting Rights Act in 1965 (protecting the right of black people to vote) and the Housing Rights Act of 1968 (ending racial discrimination in housing). The role of women in society was also changing. The Equal Pay Act of 1963 abolished the pay disparity between men and women while the Women's Liberation movement and Feminism were sweeping the nation. Religious, Conservative and Puritanical norms surrounding sex were cast aside as pornography, the introduction of the Birth control Pill, the Sexual Revolution and Free Love turned America upside down. Norms surrounding drug use were also experiencing major changes as cannabis saw increasing usage among American youths, LSD and other psychedelics also became popular in the so called "counter-culture" and "hippy" movements. The beginning of the Gay rights and Gay liberation movement can also be traced to the 1960s. In the beginning of the 1960s, homosexual acts was illegal in every US state with lengthy prison times or even hard labor, until 1962 when Illinois first decriminalized sodomy which would precede a wave of decriminalisations in the 1970s. With the youth rebelling, many turned to non-Stalinist but non-liberal "New Left" movements such as Anarchism, Maoism and Communalism. The musical highlights of the decade included the Beatles, the Monkeys, Woodstock & psychedelic rock.
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Star Trek (1966-1969) became a popular culture & science fiction classic, combining the technological advances of the decade (space race, computers etc) with the social and political issues of the era (Cold War, Racism, Economic Inequality etc). For the first time, a cast of various different races and ethnicities was broadcast nationally on television.

The technological optimism of the 1950s continued into the 1960s. In previous decades the modern American family became middle class with such amenities as refrigerators, indoor air conditioning, washing machines, automobiles, a suburban house, modern stoves & ovens (more recently, atomic ovens or "microwaves"). The Interstate Highway Act and NASA showed the promise of things to come. The 1962 Seattle World's Fair and 1964 New York World's Fair showcased this hopeful view of the future, aided by modern technology. The dawn of the Space Age began to realize many of the promises made by science fiction, including earth orbiting whether, military and communications satellites, manned space travel to the Moon and robotic missions to the nearby planets. Atomic energy was beginning to become commercially affordable, offering potentially unlimited clean, cheap energy. The resources of Space, the Oceans, Antarctica and untapped riches of the Earth would provide an ever higher standard of living to an ever growing population with ever more sophisticated modern technology including materials not yet imagined or conceived of yet. Picturephones would allow one to both speak to and see those from around the globe. The first supersonic jetliners (UK & France's Concord and the Soviet's TU-144) debuted in their first test flights at decades end while American plans for an SST had already reached full-mock-up stage. The 1968 film "2001: A Space Odyssey" by Stanley Kubrick and Arthur C. Clarke predicted a world marked by revolutionary technological advances in computer nuclear and space technology with the metaphorical analogy of humans becoming Godlike.
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Moonbase and Space Station as predicted by 1964 World's Fair in New York
At the same time, a countering trend of pessimism was equally operative during the time. The United States ultimately lost the race to the Moon, the threat of nuclear destruction hung precariously over the heads of all people and increasingly people were beginning to fear that massive population growth would lead to a Malthusian crisis of overpopulation. With the addition of this new threat of resource depletion, environmental destruction and overpopulation added to the list of potential fears, many began to question the large sums of money going into Space rather than social programs for the poor. In addition fears of the violence, crimes and excesses of the counterculture began to ferment a revitalized conservative & right-wing libertarian movement, threatening to overthrow the New Deal establishment which had held power since Franklin Roosevelt, with the election of Nixon being their first major political accomplishment .
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Meanwhile in Europe, the continent was also shaken up with crisis. The construction of the Berlin Wall between East and West Germany by the Soviet Union in 1961, the shooting down of the leading Soviet politician Lenoid Brezhnev and the resulting Algerian crisis between the USSR and France [1], and the sweeping wave of decolonization as Africa and the Arab world escaped from European colonialism. The 1968 leftist uprising in France showed the ideas of the New Left alive in western Europe. In Eastern Europe the Khruschev thaw which had begun in the 1950s continued as the Soviet Union and Eastern block continued to liberalize. Leadership was handed over from Nikita Khrushchev to his protégé Alexei Kosygin as Khrushchev's health continued to decline in the late 1960s. Alexander Dubcek played a big role in reforming Czechoslovakia to create "Socialism with a human face". The implementation of Market reforms and the creation of "Market Socialism" in the late 1960s continued the list of once-thought impossible reforms (which had begun with in 1956 with Khrushchev's denunciation of Stalin in his "secret speech"). As relations improved between the USSR and Yugoslavia, they utterly broke apart with Albania leaving the Eastern Bloc entirely to continue Stalinism as the rest of the Eastern bloc experienced greater Freedom of Speech and Civil Liberties.[4]
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In Asia, Mao Zedong's China broke off ties with the Soviet Union calling Khrushchev's reforms "revisionist". Meanwhile the civil war raged in Vietnam between communists and capitalists. Ultimately the increasingly hostile relations with the USSR fueled a increasingly violent and chaotic cultural revolution leading to the ultimate death of Mao Zedong and the crisis of who would become the successor. The militarist Lin Biao administration which took over ultimately threatened to repeat the actions taken in Korea until the US withdrew in fear of the consequences and facing increasing crisises at home, setting the stage for communist expansion into Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia.[3]

In Africa decolonization was sweaping the continent in the "wave of change" leading to several dictatorships and military regimes siding with either the US, USSR or remaining non-aligned. In the Arab world secular nationalist and anti-imperialist movements were challenging post-colonial monarchies and kingdoms as Nasserism, Ba'athism, Arab Socialism and Communism spread across North Africa and the Middle East. In the South and Central America the communists struck a single major victory in Cuba before the movement died out as several US aligned military regimes and dictators took over, most notabley in the Brazilian coup of 1964.

Divergences
[1] While flying over Algeria, Brezhnev (Head of Presidium) was shot down by the French, causing all onboard to perish in an international incident in 1961.
[2] With the Soviets having developed ICBMs, the Cuban Missile Crisis never happens but the Bay of Pigs Invasion (1961), Fidel Castro declaring himself Communist (1961) and the crisis surrounding that still occur.
[3] The closer relations between the US and USSR than OTL lead to an even more violent and bloodied Cultural Revolution in which Mao Zedong is killed while flying by Red Guards (not realizing it's him). The subsequent crisis of leadership produces the militarist Lin Biao who's threat of getting involved against the US become sufficient to warrant a US retreat from Vietnam in 1968.
[4] Without the Cuban Missile Crisis or Brezhnev, Khrushchev is able to continue leading and reforming the USSR, ultimately adopting Alexei Kosygin as his successor. When Czechoslovakia attempts to reform, the USSR cautiously watches and actually ends up encouraging it along with the Kosygin economic reforms.
 
2001: A Space Time Odyssey Post 29:

Odyssey through the US House of Representatives

The news of NASA's Odyssey program hit the US media like a bomb.
Some journalist remembering Stanley Kubrick science fiction movie "2001: A Space Odyssey" compared the program to the similarly named film while other point out the gigantic cost of $100 billion something similar to ending Vietnam War,
And labeled Odyssey as Megalomaniac madness, even speaking of a NASA Empire.
In the latest Gallup Poll 53% of US citizens were against the Apollo program ! while Spiro Agnew was booed when he spoke of the Odyssey program in public.
With the media hype the House of Representatives started to react.
They cut down NASA 1970 budget to U$ 3,752 Million, 17.31% lower of year 1969.

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Joseph Karth (Dem) member of House committee on Science, Space and Technology
Started to criticizes NASA in public "for miss-using Odyssey for getting to Mars only". In the spring of 1971 Krath tried several times to issue a bill to block the financing of the combination program, the votings ended in a stalemate,

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Walter Mondale (Dem) tried in July, to past a more radical bill. He proposed to shut down NASA manned Space Flight activity and close NASA Center Marshall Space Flight Center and Johnson Space Center,
With the argument that USA had lose the Moon Race, and that it better to spend the money on social welfare programs. His proposal was rejected with 32 to 28 Votes.

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Caspar Weinberger, newly responsible for the US federal budget, tried unsuccessful to cancel the Apollo and Odyssey program.
NASA rang the alarm bells, Odyssey was in danger of getting canceled by US politicians !
Administrator George E. Mueller tried to deal with new hostile situation.
Luckily the planned NASA budget cuts by Representatives were stop by Nixon's vetos.

NASA started to Lobby for the program, focusing on Space shuttle, Space Station and Manned lunar missions, endeavoring not mention future manned Mars missions.
In same time the USAF look into a joint venture in the Shuttle program which would reduce NASA's portion of the costs of Odyssey.
Mueller made harsh cut in NASA programs like Apollo Application Program, scaling it down to just Skylab (canceling the Apollo-Soyuz program all together).
At the same time the US Aerospace Industry acquired the best Lobbyists in Washington D.C. because even the scaled down version of proposed Odyssey program would bring them even more revenue than the Apollo program.

Then came the news the Soviet would increase there manned Lunar mission to two per year.
Finally Congress react, instead of immediately accepting Odyssey in the beginning, they pushed for more Apollo missions. NASA could restart the Saturn V and IB production.
In the Senate the battle restart, Walter Mondale claimed that Odyssey was a waste of money.
Congress voted for Odyssey in march 1972, but with budget only for more Apollo Missions, the Space Station & Space Shuttle with an eventual lunar base in the early 1980s (utilizing the Shuttle's chemical "Space Tug" and a reusable orbit to orbit Nuclear Shuttle) in total $50 billion for next 10 years (with a peak annual budget of $5.5 billion). For Von Braun and his colleagues this decision was a secret victory. With the nuclear shuttle, space tug, space shuttle, space station and Saturn booster, the option would be available to any future president who wished to send humans to Mars. The only item not funded would be the Mars Excursion Module (MEM). If funding for the MEM were approved in FY 1976, the first landing would be in 1983. If the MEM were approved in FY 1978, the first landing would be in 1985 and so on. This wasn't publically discussed as spending even more money on an MEM wasn't politically viable at the time.

Some Representatives even Democrats began considering Walter Mondale as "treacherous", a simple majority shared opinion the USA had to counter the Soviet Space activity, after nearly losing every space milestone to the Soviets from Sputnik to the Moon.
Despite warning of his colleagues and allies, Mondale issued until 1973 several bills to stop the financing of Odyssey, they were each rejected with a narrow majority.
Because US House of Representatives had other problems:
FBI director John Edgar Hoover died, Mark Felt become his successor, Spiro Agnew resigned, President Nixon tooke Gerald Ford as Vice President,
For 1971 to 1976 the financing of Odyssey was save for moment, again thanks to Nixon's Vetos.

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In 1975 the first Golden Fleece Award is awarded by William Proxmire (Dem) to NASA Odyssey program, because "it launched billions of public dollars into Space".
 
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