Are the Aururians skirt or trousers people, in general?
Or is it loincloths all the way?
Or is it loincloths all the way?
Lands of Red and Gold, Act II
- Thread starter Jared
- Start date
By whom? The author of that Wiki page? (which seems to be mostly idiosyncratic analysis rather than fact on this issue)
AFAIK, the EIC, VOC, CDO controlled production only in territories that were de facto dependencies of their home countries. They had trading posts in some areas they did not control, but so did the medieval Venetians and Genoese; the Fuggers had branch offices in several countries. A lot of the operations of the EIC/VOC/CDO were in backwards areas that had no government they recognized as such.
The VOC's political status in Indonesia was rather complicated. In the Moluccas they had direct control of some places such as Ambon but it would be a stretch to say they (initially) ruled Ternate and Tidore, for example, and simply wrong to say they ruled Banten, Mataram and pretty much any part of the Greater Sunda till much later. They nevertheless had varying degrees of control over production in many of these places, rarely absolute especially out west but nevertheless a very strong influence.
Loincloths are something more associated with hunter-gatherers than farming peoples, to the Aururian way of thinking. Most of the agriculturalists do not have a high opinion of hunter-gatherers, to put it mildly.
For the farming peoples, the style of dress varies a great deal over time and region, but on the whole the most common styles of dress are pseudo-trousers (often only to knee length) or one-piece items which are wrapped around both the upper and lower half of the body.
Looking forward to it.
Not irreconcilable ones. Plirism is not even inherently a deistic religion (although in practice most Plirists do believe in deities of a sort). Plirism will mostly view science as answering how questions while leaving the why questions up to religion.
Some smaller sects may have trouble accommodating discoveries of science and medicine, but on the whole it won't be too much of a problem.
I used Wikipedia because it was the most convenient reference, but it's not the only one. See also here and here, for instance.
This varied over time and region, of course, but as they developed they controlled production in some regions even where they lacked formal political control. For the EIC and VOC, particularly. (ITTL, the CDO has rather more profitability than in OTL, which is why it was included in the ATL list of early multinationals.)
Thanks. That fits with what I'd understood; influence over production was broader than the level of political control.
mojojojo
Gone Fishin'
Now, the last thing I want to do is hijack this thread.
However, I have to admit this sounds very interesting. If you were to speculate in broad terms, what would happen to Eurasia in such a scenario? Would Christianity still be the dominant religion in Europe? Would Islam ever get off the ground?
Lands of Red and Gold 2.0: Prologue
After having had a long think about things, I agree with the people who were interested in exploring an alt-Aururian history where the lesser yam appears many centuries earlier than in the AD 1400 it appeared in the original timeline. Say, around the date AD 200 where it appeared in the alt-alt-history For Want of a Yam which was described in the Australia Day special. This means much earlier agricultural expansion into northern Aururia, contact with the broader world, and then at least trade contact with the wider world, etc, etc.
So I’ve decided to reboot Lands of Red and Gold, with the new version featuring an allohistory where the lesser yam, or a close equivalent, appears sometime around AD 200. This allows the “Great Migrations” of the original timeline to continue for several centuries more as agriculturalists expand into northern Aururia.
Sadly this will mean that pretty much everything in the original timeline needs to be thrown out except for posts #1-7 (which will need only minor updating). That means a few years’ worth of work scrapped, but as Humpty Dumpty never actually said (but should have), you can’t make an omelette without breaking eggs. The reboot (version 2.0) will essentially be what the For Want of a Yam timeline would have been, as if written within the version 1.0 universe, but obviously with the footnotes referring to real history rather than “allohistory”, i.e. version 1.0. I’m keeping the title Lands of Red and Gold, though, since I think that’s more appealing as a title than For Want of a Yam.
I will create a whole new thread for this in the next few days, but in the meantime, I thought a teaser prologue would be appropriate. I can salvage most of posts #1-7, but the original LoRaG prologue can’t be re-used, since it depicted Māori contact with Aururia c. AD 1310 and Dutch contact with Aururia AD 1619. In version 2.0, history will be changed long before then – indeed, there probably won’t even be a Netherlands to make contact with Aururia in 1619.
So I’ve rewritten the prologue to show what happens instead when the first Aururian plagues change history in the broader world, starting with what would have been called the First Crusade...
* * *
Translator’s Note: The conclusion of the Crusade was the failed siege of Jerusalem, which was besieged on 7 June 1099 and abandoned about five weeks later due to an outbreak of blue-sleep amongst the besieging Christian armies. Fulcher of Chartres, the author of this chronicle, took part in the siege of the city and in the harrowing march back to Tripoli after the plague forced the Christians to withdraw [1].
Chapter 27: The Affliction of Jerusalem
On the seventh of June the Franks besieged Jerusalem. The city is located in a mountainous region, which is lacking in rivers, woods, and springs, except the Fountain of Siloam, where there is plenty of water, but it empties forth only at certain intervals. This fountain empties into the valley, at the foot of Mount Zion, and flows into the course of the brook of Kedron, which, during the winter, flows through the valley of Jehosophat. There are many cisterns, which furnish abundant water within the city. When filled by the winter rains and well cared for, they offer both men and beasts an unfailing supply at all times. Moreover, the city is laid out most beautifully, and cannot be criticized for too great length or as being disproportionately narrow. On the west is the Tower of David, which is flanked on both sides by the broad wall of the city. The lower half of the wall is solid masonry, of square stones and mortar, sealed with molten lead. So strong is this wall that, if fifteen or twenty men should be well supplied with provisions, they would never be taken by any army...
When the Franks saw how difficult it would be to take the city, the leaders ordered scaling ladders to be made, hoping that by a brave assault it might be possible to surmount the walls by means of ladders and thus take the city, God willing. So the ladders were made, and on the day following the seventh, in the early morning, the leaders ordered the attack, and with the trumpets sounding, a splendid assault was made on the city from all sides. The attack lasted till the sixth hour, but it was discovered that the city could not be entered by the use of ladders, which were few in number, and sadly we ceased the attack.
Then a council was held, and it was ordered that siege machines should be constructed by the artisans, so that by moving them close to the wall we might accomplish our purpose, with the aid of God. This was done...
... The tower was only half-assembled when the wrath of God fell on the besiegers. Plague came from the east, where it had afflicted the Saracens at Babylon. Death came first among the soldiers of Count Raymond at their position atop Mount Zion. A malady of malevolence, which struck at the young and most hale but spared more of the elderly. By its colour was it known, for first the plague marked in blue the lips of those it had claimed, a sure sign of plague to come. It descended thence into fever and coughing, and most who were touched by it never rose again.
The soldiers of Duke Godfrey, Robert, Count of the Normans and Robert of Flanders were no more spared. With haste and fear the plague spread, this illness of blue-sloth, until no more did the Franks dare to surround Jerusalem. Whether from punishment for our sins or because God would not suffer any man to be king of the city which once held the King of Jerusalem, the plague gave His word to us. Abandon this city we must, else suffer greater still as in ancient times when the Angel of the Lord smote the Assyrians besieging the Holy City. How then should men know the mind of God, for it is not theirs to reason, but only to obey the sign of His will. So we departed from the Holy City and returned to Tripoli. What more shall I tell?
* * *
So, that’s it for the prologue. The first reworked chapters will appear in the reboot thread 2.0 once I have a few days to write them up. Obviously version 1.0 is more or less dead. I will try to work up a final post #101 at some point to give an overview of how things would have ended up if I’d continued with it, although only so much can be fit into one post – much will have to remain up to readers’ imaginations.
* * *
[1] This account is adapted from an online translation of the real account by Fulcher of Chartres (I couldn’t find the name of the translator to credit them). The first three paragraphs are more or less verbatim from the translation; the remaining paragraphs are adapted more freely based on Fulcher’s style.
* * *
Thoughts?
After having had a long think about things, I agree with the people who were interested in exploring an alt-Aururian history where the lesser yam appears many centuries earlier than in the AD 1400 it appeared in the original timeline. Say, around the date AD 200 where it appeared in the alt-alt-history For Want of a Yam which was described in the Australia Day special. This means much earlier agricultural expansion into northern Aururia, contact with the broader world, and then at least trade contact with the wider world, etc, etc.
So I’ve decided to reboot Lands of Red and Gold, with the new version featuring an allohistory where the lesser yam, or a close equivalent, appears sometime around AD 200. This allows the “Great Migrations” of the original timeline to continue for several centuries more as agriculturalists expand into northern Aururia.
Sadly this will mean that pretty much everything in the original timeline needs to be thrown out except for posts #1-7 (which will need only minor updating). That means a few years’ worth of work scrapped, but as Humpty Dumpty never actually said (but should have), you can’t make an omelette without breaking eggs. The reboot (version 2.0) will essentially be what the For Want of a Yam timeline would have been, as if written within the version 1.0 universe, but obviously with the footnotes referring to real history rather than “allohistory”, i.e. version 1.0. I’m keeping the title Lands of Red and Gold, though, since I think that’s more appealing as a title than For Want of a Yam.
I will create a whole new thread for this in the next few days, but in the meantime, I thought a teaser prologue would be appropriate. I can salvage most of posts #1-7, but the original LoRaG prologue can’t be re-used, since it depicted Māori contact with Aururia c. AD 1310 and Dutch contact with Aururia AD 1619. In version 2.0, history will be changed long before then – indeed, there probably won’t even be a Netherlands to make contact with Aururia in 1619.
So I’ve rewritten the prologue to show what happens instead when the first Aururian plagues change history in the broader world, starting with what would have been called the First Crusade...
* * *
Translator’s Note: The conclusion of the Crusade was the failed siege of Jerusalem, which was besieged on 7 June 1099 and abandoned about five weeks later due to an outbreak of blue-sleep amongst the besieging Christian armies. Fulcher of Chartres, the author of this chronicle, took part in the siege of the city and in the harrowing march back to Tripoli after the plague forced the Christians to withdraw [1].
Chapter 27: The Affliction of Jerusalem
On the seventh of June the Franks besieged Jerusalem. The city is located in a mountainous region, which is lacking in rivers, woods, and springs, except the Fountain of Siloam, where there is plenty of water, but it empties forth only at certain intervals. This fountain empties into the valley, at the foot of Mount Zion, and flows into the course of the brook of Kedron, which, during the winter, flows through the valley of Jehosophat. There are many cisterns, which furnish abundant water within the city. When filled by the winter rains and well cared for, they offer both men and beasts an unfailing supply at all times. Moreover, the city is laid out most beautifully, and cannot be criticized for too great length or as being disproportionately narrow. On the west is the Tower of David, which is flanked on both sides by the broad wall of the city. The lower half of the wall is solid masonry, of square stones and mortar, sealed with molten lead. So strong is this wall that, if fifteen or twenty men should be well supplied with provisions, they would never be taken by any army...
When the Franks saw how difficult it would be to take the city, the leaders ordered scaling ladders to be made, hoping that by a brave assault it might be possible to surmount the walls by means of ladders and thus take the city, God willing. So the ladders were made, and on the day following the seventh, in the early morning, the leaders ordered the attack, and with the trumpets sounding, a splendid assault was made on the city from all sides. The attack lasted till the sixth hour, but it was discovered that the city could not be entered by the use of ladders, which were few in number, and sadly we ceased the attack.
Then a council was held, and it was ordered that siege machines should be constructed by the artisans, so that by moving them close to the wall we might accomplish our purpose, with the aid of God. This was done...
... The tower was only half-assembled when the wrath of God fell on the besiegers. Plague came from the east, where it had afflicted the Saracens at Babylon. Death came first among the soldiers of Count Raymond at their position atop Mount Zion. A malady of malevolence, which struck at the young and most hale but spared more of the elderly. By its colour was it known, for first the plague marked in blue the lips of those it had claimed, a sure sign of plague to come. It descended thence into fever and coughing, and most who were touched by it never rose again.
The soldiers of Duke Godfrey, Robert, Count of the Normans and Robert of Flanders were no more spared. With haste and fear the plague spread, this illness of blue-sloth, until no more did the Franks dare to surround Jerusalem. Whether from punishment for our sins or because God would not suffer any man to be king of the city which once held the King of Jerusalem, the plague gave His word to us. Abandon this city we must, else suffer greater still as in ancient times when the Angel of the Lord smote the Assyrians besieging the Holy City. How then should men know the mind of God, for it is not theirs to reason, but only to obey the sign of His will. So we departed from the Holy City and returned to Tripoli. What more shall I tell?
* * *
So, that’s it for the prologue. The first reworked chapters will appear in the reboot thread 2.0 once I have a few days to write them up. Obviously version 1.0 is more or less dead. I will try to work up a final post #101 at some point to give an overview of how things would have ended up if I’d continued with it, although only so much can be fit into one post – much will have to remain up to readers’ imaginations.
* * *
[1] This account is adapted from an online translation of the real account by Fulcher of Chartres (I couldn’t find the name of the translator to credit them). The first three paragraphs are more or less verbatim from the translation; the remaining paragraphs are adapted more freely based on Fulcher’s style.
* * *
Thoughts?
If this is not a April Fool's joke my hat's off to you Jared as that would take some serious balls. 
IIRC Pliriism doesn't have a set founding myth, even, so there's little incentive for the religious institution to promote denialism of the sciences. Creationism wouldn't develop, because the facts of evolution will be taken as being descriptive of nature and the universe while the philosophical and metaphysical queries of "why is this happening and towards what purpose?" will be left to religion.
Same thing now with many church officials. Accepting evolution as descriptive of what happens in nature, and holding god as the force behind it all.
As long as the religion's own writings and mythos are not both supposed to be explanatory of natural phenomena down to specifics and the source of religious authority, then science / religion conflict can be averted for the time being.
I mean, it's still March in the land of Pacific Standard Time, but I can still appreciate the joke.
As most people have spotted, of course, the previous instalment was a 1 April special. It had to be posted in line with Aururian time zones to really be a 1 April special, so for those who live in the wrong time zone and saw it a day yearly, well, c'est la vie.
Don't be; I had this special planned for a couple of days before you posted that question. I just held off on saying anything about your question until I could make a post on 1 April.
Yes, Plirism in and off itself has no strict creation story / automatic requirement for deities. It does incorporate reincarnation as an essential part of its belief structure, but that in itself does not clash with science. Reincarnation is just viewed as an "untestable" part of the world.
That said, most schools of Plirism have picked up a lot of the same shared conceptual universe as traditional "Gunnagalic" religions - a bit like how the religions which originated in India share a lot of concepts in common even if they interpret them differently. Some of these have "creation stories" about particular aspects of the world. But these are still more easily reinterpreted to fit with scientific discoveries than, say, the idea of one universal creaiton.
Plirism has some interpretation of particular natural phenomena as aspects of deities (lightning being created by a particular deity, for instance), but this is of a form which can be easily reinterpreted as "metaphorical" or "symbolic". Plirism has always had a clear message that no-one is all-powerful or all-knowing, not even deities, so they can work around stories of deities.
In outdoor appearance, they don't have a distinctive idea of religious buildings as being constructed differently from other large buildings. What they do is decorate them differently. One of the most notable ways is how they construct windows: they build the windows to be in the shape of a "half-moon" (with the straight line being vertical); no other buildings have those windows as a general style. (Individual shrine rooms in buildings might, but not the whole building). Another is chimes, which are hung around most religious buildings (and some non-religious buildings), and built so that the sounds they make are irregular.
In terms of personal symbolism, they also often wear necklaces in a half-moon shape (straight line being horizontal, in this case), a symbolic representation of the Endless Spiral, or that of various deities, such as the Rainbow Serpent, the Fire Brothers, or the Green Lady.
Should I be ashamed that I asked a question foolish enough to provoke an April Fool's response
Don't be; I had this special planned for a couple of days before you posted that question. I just held off on saying anything about your question until I could make a post on 1 April.
Yes, Plirism in and off itself has no strict creation story / automatic requirement for deities. It does incorporate reincarnation as an essential part of its belief structure, but that in itself does not clash with science. Reincarnation is just viewed as an "untestable" part of the world.
That said, most schools of Plirism have picked up a lot of the same shared conceptual universe as traditional "Gunnagalic" religions - a bit like how the religions which originated in India share a lot of concepts in common even if they interpret them differently. Some of these have "creation stories" about particular aspects of the world. But these are still more easily reinterpreted to fit with scientific discoveries than, say, the idea of one universal creaiton.
Plirism has some interpretation of particular natural phenomena as aspects of deities (lightning being created by a particular deity, for instance), but this is of a form which can be easily reinterpreted as "metaphorical" or "symbolic". Plirism has always had a clear message that no-one is all-powerful or all-knowing, not even deities, so they can work around stories of deities.
In outdoor appearance, they don't have a distinctive idea of religious buildings as being constructed differently from other large buildings. What they do is decorate them differently. One of the most notable ways is how they construct windows: they build the windows to be in the shape of a "half-moon" (with the straight line being vertical); no other buildings have those windows as a general style. (Individual shrine rooms in buildings might, but not the whole building). Another is chimes, which are hung around most religious buildings (and some non-religious buildings), and built so that the sounds they make are irregular.
In terms of personal symbolism, they also often wear necklaces in a half-moon shape (straight line being horizontal, in this case), a symbolic representation of the Endless Spiral, or that of various deities, such as the Rainbow Serpent, the Fire Brothers, or the Green Lady.
So a similar situation may arise with modern Buddhists and Hindu sects which believe in reincarnation. Where they posit that a "soul" or some such entity finds its way in other bodies and that it cannot be observed or proven / disproven. Has there been any situations of people claiming to be reincarnations of other important figures?
One thing I was wondering about, does Pliriism have that same reverence of anti-familial values (to an extent), asceticism and hermits as we see in some Christian fraternities and many Buddhist and Hindu sects? Famously with the idea that one can gain true enlightenment or be closest to god if one shuns all worldly pleasures and travels / joins a monastery as with sadhus or monks?
Are there any examples of large temples being built by powertful nations to show or create religious authority? Like with the great cathedrals and mosques or the large temple complexes of India?
Another question I had was about storytelling and literature. Are there any Aururian epics? Are there any archetypical / stock characters that are culturally significant that appear?
Also, did you get the things I sent you on PM?