东方红 (The East is Red)

Kosta

Banned
I can't deny his free speech as I am not the Government of the UNITED STATES.

What his most recent posts was, and is, is flat out trolling. That was what the action was for, trolling. Could have been for flame baiting, but I went with trolling. This Board does have standards, they may not be much, but they exist. One reason they exist is to prevent things from becoming flame wars. I have had to come into this thread several times and put out fires. I just did it again.

He took an historical figure, an actual person who is revered (to the point that she is being serious put forth to be placed on U.S. currency), who is an icon of passive resistance and turned her into not just a murderer, but a killer of children for shits and giggles (or maybe because he was able to find a picture). My earlier comparison was completely valid, for an encore will he have Anne Frank running a death camp?

If he did, and he was jacked up for flame-baiting would it be the right or wrong thing to do?

Then why do you allow TL's that have the violent deaths of Mohammad or stillbirth of Jesus, or stories where Jesus is a violent revolutionary figure where it could be implied he kills women and children? I'd say people reverse Jesus Christ (such as myself) & Mohammad just a bit more than Rosa Parks, not to belittle her contributions to the world. If you start to get offended that one historical figure is portrayed in a way that you don't like, that defeats the purpose of AH a bit and smothers the creativity of this community of writers', I'd say. This is getting into slippery-slope territory.
 
Spoiler Alert:

Names of prominent American Red Guard Cells during the Red Terror (1963-???):

-Children of Papa Legba (Gulf Coast)
-Nat Turner Legion (Virginia)
-The Dead Rabbits (New York)
-Weather Underground (Michigan)
-义和拳 (West Coast)
-Holy Isiah League (Georgia)
-League of Holy Moses (Alabama)
-The Icemen (New Jersey)
-Barisan Rakyat (Gulf Coast, Texas)
-American Maoist Workers (Nationwide)
-American People's Liberation Army (US Military)
-Haymarket Rioters (Chicago)
-The Winter Hill Gang (Boston, Northeast)
-La Raza (US Southwest)
 
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Pangur

Donor
Spoiler Alert:

Names of prominent American Red Guard Cells during the Red Terror (1963-???):

-Children of Papa Legba (Gulf Coast)
-Nat Turner Legion (Virginia)
-The Dead Rabbits (New York)
-Weather Underground (Michigan)
-义和拳 (West Coast)
-Holy Isiah League (Georgia)
-League of Holy Moses (Alabama)
-The Icemen (New Jersey)
-Barisan Rakyat (Gulf Coast, Texas)
-American Maoist Workers (Nationwide)
-American People's Liberation Army (US Military)
-Haymarket Rioters (Chicago)
-The Winter Hill Gang (Boston, Northeast)
-La Raza (US Southwest)

No groups with a name linked to the Spanish Civil war? I would have expected as least one
 
How is Lacanian school of psychoanalysis doing ITTL? How is psychoanalysis doing in China?

Has French New Wave cinematic movement happened? Ditto for Japanese New Wave, is Oshima making movies or is he too ecstatic about commies' victories in Japan? How does Chinese cinema look like?

How is Louis Althusser's intellectual project going? Or Marcuse's?

Is Maoism more, less, or same-as-OTL popular in Parisian intellectual circles?

What is being read at China's philosophy departments? Are feminist readings of Marx popular? How is Marx read (orthodoxically or more semiotically, like in Althusser's works)? What is the state of Chinese feminism? Is China developing its own school of postcolonial studies?

And yeah, I know these are the stupidest questions ever, but I'm reading a lot of New Historicism right now and your TL just opens up so many possibilities within history of ideas :D
 

guinazacity

Banned
Congratulations everyone

This drama was more entertaining than many TLs in this website.

Now YLi, just keep going, I trust that you'll keep doing a good job even when forced to retcon your stuff every couple of updates.
 
How is Lacanian school of psychoanalysis doing ITTL? How is psychoanalysis doing in China?

Jacques Lacan isn't really lecturing much given the rioting that's been happening in France.

Has French New Wave cinematic movement happened? Ditto for Japanese New Wave, is Oshima making movies or is he too ecstatic about commies' victories in Japan? How does Chinese cinema look like?
I can't comment on French or Japanese cinema since I'm a fan of neither. Chinese cinema still hasn't exited the propaganda stage yet and might not for some time. However, the lack of a Cultural Revolution means that Chinese pop culture won't have things to ironically mock in later decades. This isn't a good thing because most Chinese movies in the 2nd half of the 20th Century will be very slow, boring and philosophical ones about ennui and depression in an increasingly capitalist China.

How is Louis Althusser's intellectual project going? Or Marcuse's?
Althusser is going to appear in the timeline. Dude was nucking futs and it's only appropriate that he's going to murder or attempt to murder someone at some point. Marcuse is not very influential ITTL and he dies even less well known than he is IOTL.

Is Maoism more, less, or same-as-OTL popular in Parisian intellectual circles?
Unfortunately for the French, Maoism has taken hold amongst the poor and disenfranchised. This is Not Good. Most French intellectuals have taken a sudden turn towards the right, or will take a sudden turn towards the right once the proletariat decide that those snooty philosophers at the Sorbonne have to go. The problem is that many intellectuals don't practice Maoism, they just talk about it and most French Red Guards would see that as being inauthentic and hypocritical.

What is being read at China's philosophy departments? Are feminist readings of Marx popular? How is Marx read (orthodoxically or more semiotically, like in Althusser's works)? What is the state of Chinese feminism? Is China developing its own school of postcolonial studies?
1.) Feminist readings of Marx and Mao are popular (although Mao did state explicitly that women held up half the sky, making explictly feminist readings of Mao redundant in my opinion.) China has had quite some success promoting Maoism in the Middle East, especially amongst women, since it provides an alternative to the (even more) male oriented Soviet versions of Communism.

2.) Marx and Mao are read semiotically and pragmatically. China does have a very lengthy tradition of metaphoric interpretation and I don't think it's going anywhere anytime soon.

3.) There's progress being made in women's issues and women participate in just about every job men participate in but they're still expected to bear many children, since that's a cultural artifact (which still exists today in many ways).

4.) Yes, China is developing its own school of post-colonial studies based off the Maoist concept of People's War. Judging by what you've read so far in the timeline, you can tell that it's a very hands-on sort of philosophy.

And yeah, I know these are the stupidest questions ever, but I'm reading a lot of New Historicism right now and your TL just opens up so many possibilities within history of ideas :D
Nah, this is stuff is gold. Thanks for asking and as always, keep reading the timeline.
 
I answered your questions to my satisfaction already. By and large, I don't feel like putting the Maghreb in the UAR just yet and I don't really want to dedicate more space in the TL for Turing's exploits.
 
I answered your questions to my satisfaction already. By and large, I don't feel like putting the Maghreb in the UAR just yet and I don't really want to dedicate more space in the TL for Turing's exploits.

One thing I myself was wondering about Turing ITTL is whether or not he ever came into contact any members of with the infamous Cambridge Five, particularly their most prominent member Kim Philby.
 
January 26th, 1963: Author Ernest Hemingway wakes up in the middle of the night to hear some burglars entering his Minnesota residence.

He grabs his trusty shotgun and goes to investigate.

KRI8vm7.jpg

"There is no hunting like the hunting of man, and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never care for anything else thereafter."

He corners the two intruders and with the help of his sons (who are visiting at the time), restrains them.

Instead of going to the police, he goes to the nearest Red Guard cell instead. He then drives North into Canada and makes himself scarce.

Meanwhile, Secretary of Defense Matthew Ridgway puts on his military uniform and gives a speech on television where he denounces the violence which has recently occurred. He also will be deploying troops based on where violence has occurred, regardless of race, ethnicity or income. Lastly, he announces that while those who riot or commit other violent acts will be detained, they will be detained until tried and sentenced by civilian and not military courts. Anyone caught threatening the lives of others will be shot.

rXexv1R.jpg

"Any motherfucker that talks shit or starts shit is gonna get got."

January 27th, 1963: In a cabin somewhere out in the woods, members of the Minneapolis Red Guard torture the two men found breaking into Ernest Hemingway's house.

5 toes, 2 nipples, 3 fingers and one left testicle later, one of the men confesses to being an FBI agent associated with COINTELPRO.

The Red Guards set the cabin on fire with both FBI agents still in it.

January 28th, 1963: Lee Harvey Oswald realizes the RPG-7 he was given is somewhat unwieldy for what he has planned. He sends for a sniper rifle instead.

85ceeQF.jpg

I do not understand why you need such a fancy rifle but I trust your judgment, Tovarisch Oswald.
Oswald sells the RPG to a certain John Lewis of the Holy Isiah League, a Red Guard cell based out of Atlanta, Georgia.

inr8H2u.jpg

Wait, wait, the Russians gave you what?

January 30th, 1963: Newly minted FBI agent Bruce Lee is assigned to the FBI SWAT platoon working out of the Detroit field office.

FBI agents discover a burned cabin near a small lake outside of Minneapolis. The remains of two people found inside are so badly charred, they have to be identified through the nascent technology of DNA sequencing, a technology pioneered by the late Dr. Rosalind Franklin (1)

February 2nd, 1963: An arrest warrant is issued for Ernest Hemingway, who is by this time, already in Cuba.

February 5th, 1963: Protests break out in the Ryukyu Islands. The Japanese military ruthlessly puts the protests down, then occupies the recently vacated bases in the islands.

China, who doesn't have much love for Japan, requests the Japanese leave the Ryukyus, which were a Chinese tributary state for hundreds of years. Japan decides to disregard this.

February 7th, 1963: Thein Pe Myint is appointed General Secretary of the Buremese Communist Party by Chinese authorities.

The atrocities committed by Chinese troops against Burmese civilians taper off sharply, due to frontline troops being relieved by fresh troops from China.

February 8th, 1963: General Ridgway announces that the Federal Government will not be ending processing and settlement of Southeast Asian refugees, mainly because of the awkward problem of them having nowhere to go.

February 16th, 1963: Premier Zhou Enlai and Alexei Kosygin sign a new trade deal ensuring the provision of Chinese grain and consumer goods to Russia in exchange for technical and military support.

February 20th, 1963: Prime Minister Lee Kuan Yew of the recently independent Federation of Malaya makes contact with Zhongnanhai and pledges his support as a loyal son of China.

In exchange for his loyalty though, Lee would like some help in ruling the entire Malay Peninsula.

H7hwJhv.jpg

That wig and ascot are as fresh as fuck. Unfortunately, an apartheid state still isn't the best of ideas.

China asks him to clarify and Lee replies that he wants to run Malaysia as an apartheid state with the Chinese at the top of the hierarchy and Malays at the bottom.

Zhou Enlai replies that China intends to make moves in Africa and thus can't be seen endorsing anything similar to Apartheid. China can prevent the British or Americans from intervening but the rest will be up to him.

February 26th, 1963: SecDef Ridgway orders the NSA and FBI to put together some kind of national database using the electronic network recently implemented in the FBI's field offices.

----
(1): DNA sequencing is probably what allowed Franklin to clinch the Nobel over Watson and Crick.
 
Extremely timely low-hanging fruit, I see. Contemporary leaders such as Lim Chin Siong or "The Plen", Fong Chong Pik are far more likely candidates for a Chinese stooge, but none of those exactly have the international prominence of the recently departed Mr. Lee, do they?
 
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Extremely timely low-hanging fruit, I see. Contemporary leaders such as Lim Chin Siong or "The Plen", Fong Chong Pik are far more likely candidates for a Chinese stooge, but none of those exactly have the international prominence of the recently departed Mr. Lee, do they?

LKY was already the Prime Minister of Singapore at this point. I didn't pick Lim because LKY speaks better Mandarin than Lim does, which is important when it comes to connecting to the classically educated officials of the Chinese Communist Party. Secondly, it's likely that LKY had Lim locked up before contacting Zhongnanhai.

Fong Chong Pik will appear at some point, although he's an active militant ITTL (and OTL too, come to think about it) and not a politician, so it's likely he'll show up once the gunfire starts.

Also, since the TL's in 1963, even if Mr. Lee hadn't died, he'd show up in the TL due to Singapore's recent independence.
 
Why would Lee Kuan Yew seek to create an apartheid state? That's completely opposite to what he did OTL.

He's an authoritarian but not a racist.
 
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Why would Lee Kuan Yew seek to create an apartheid state? That's completely at odds to what he did OTL.

He's an authoritarian but not a racist.
13 years' worth of butterflies amplified his racialism to racism? It's pretty well-known that he considered Malays (with Malay relatives on the other side of the causeway) to be a security threat as late as 1999 in OTL, going so far as to say that he wouldn't trust a(n extremely religious) Malay to lead a machine gun-post on the front lines.

Good luck trying to enforce that when he and the Malayan Chinese population is outnumbered by the folks he's looking down on in TTL, though, and are relatively empowered too unlike the blacks in South Africa. The Indians, as per normal, will probably keep their heads down and wait for this to blow over.
 
13 years' worth of butterflies amplified his racialism to racism? It's pretty well-known that he considered Malays (with Malay relatives on the other side of the causeway) to be a security threat as late as 1999 in OTL, going so far as to say that he wouldn't trust a(n extremely religious) Malay to lead a machine gun-post on the front lines.

Good luck trying to enforce that when he and the Malayan Chinese population is outnumbered by the folks he's looking down on in TTL, though, and are relatively empowered too unlike the blacks in South Africa. The Indians, as per normal, will probably keep their heads down and wait for this to blow over.
Lol that's ironic, front-line troops in the Singapore military are majority Malay. (Yes it's deliberate)

Which is why I don't think he would be that stupid to enact such racial policies. His actions OTL were repressive but had the ultimate goal of improving the country's economy and standard of living. The idea was to gain the people's loyalty and subservience by giving them comfort and essentially saying, "You owe all of this to me", rather than trying to keep them in constant fear and/or ignorance (like what North Korea does, and like what South Africa used to do).

He championed equal rights regardless of races OTL because Tunku and the Malays under UMNO were doing the exact opposite, and it was also a good way to appeal to Indians/Eurasians/moderate Malays.
 
I don't disagree with any of the points you're making, but YLi clearly wants to have Apartheid Malaya as an endgoal (or the orgy of violence when the Malays decide this LKY guy really tak boleh tahan), and Mr. Harry Lee is the most convenient (and recognisable) figure to send it to hell in a handbasket.

What I do take massive umbrage with is the notion that he would allow Malaya to fall into the orbit of China - he lived through British rule and the Japanese Occupation, rejecting both as unsuitable for the inhabitants of Singapore and Malaya, and as PM famously told the CIA to fuck off when they tried to deny bribing him. Even with his worst qualities amplified, I don't see him selling his homeland out in such a way.
 
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I don't disagree with any of the points you're making, but YLi clearly wants to have Apartheid Malaya as an endgoal (or the orgy of violence when the Malays decide this LKY guy really tak gunna), and Mr. Harry Lee is the most convenient (and recognisable) figure to send it to hell in a handbasket.

What I do take massive umbrage with is the notion that he would allow Malaya to fall into the orbit of China - he lived through British rule and the Japanese Occupation, rejecting both as unsuitable for the inhabitants of Singapore and Malaya, and as PM famously told the CIA to fuck off when they tried to deny bribing him. Even with his worst qualities amplified, I don't see him selling his homeland out in such a way.
Oh right. That too.

And yeah it's pretty obvious what YLi is aiming for.

LKY wanting an apartheid state ---> He succeeds or Tunku offs him ---> Chinese oppress Malays or vice versa ----> May 13th multiplied tenfold
 
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