“Where the Valkyries Rode the Skies” Alternate Normandy Timeline

Saphroneth

Banned
I only picked it because Kurt Meyer supposedly in OTL achieved a similar kill ratio in an engagement with Shermans ;)

And the Canadian action report of the same action reported kills on 31 German tanks... while Meyer, that committed nazi who ordered that no prisoners be taken (lest we forget), was recalling the action over a year later in court.
Besides, if he lost only "four" (five or six, he said) tanks, then why didn't he continue an advance? The action in question halted his drive towards the sea.
Finally, I can't seem to find a reference to what the tanks actually WERE. Given that that division had over sixty Panthers attached, I suspect some of said tanks were present.
 
And the Canadian action report of the same action reported kills on 31 German tanks... while Meyer, that committed nazi who ordered that no prisoners be taken (lest we forget), was recalling the action over a year later in court.
Besides, if he lost only "four" (five or six, he said) tanks, then why didn't he continue an advance? The action in question halted his drive towards the sea.
Finally, I can't seem to find a reference to what the tanks actually WERE. Given that that division had over sixty Panthers attached, I suspect some of said tanks were present.

Thanks!

The article i have says it was tanks of the 12 SS Panzer Battalion 2, which comprised of two companies of Panzer IV's. Panzer Battalion 1 is the one with the Panther tanks and was according to this it was not present.

Overall i can't explain why he would halt after a victory like this, if it even happened. Barkmann also supposedly achieve some high kill ratio's in Normandy, not sure on these either.
 
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Perhaps someone could help me. I'm trying to determine what relative German losses thus far in men and tanks would be. We effectively have four Panzer Divisions smashed and also a lot of coastal infantry losses.

By June 17th

25,000-30,000 Casualties

200+ tanks lost

Does this sound right?

Thanks!:D
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Thanks!

The article i have says it was tanks of the 12 SS Panzer Battalion 2, which comprised of two companies of Panzer IV's. Panzer Battalion 1 is the one with the Panther tanks and was according to this it was not present.

Overall i can't explain why he would halt after a victory like this, if it even happened. Barkmann also supposedly achieve some high kill ratio's in Normandy, not sure on these either.

I wonder what would happen if you tally up how many tanks the Canadians supposedly lost in Normandy, and compared it to their actual TO&E plus reinforcements. Because I know that both the Allies and the Axis suffered from overclaiming, but the Allies at least kept it in hand.



Also of note - Meyer became the commander of the Hitlerjugend because his superior officer was killed by naval bombardment. Consider the implications of that, and that you're having much more action taking place within naval gun range. Basically, if a landing site has been abandoned as lost, that should mean the entire attacking formation has been pounded to bloody ruin - after all, attacking over five miles into the gunfire range of supporting artillery that can kill you with a near miss is basically what WW1 infantry had to do...
 
Basically, if a landing site has been abandoned as lost, that should mean the entire attacking formation has been pounded to bloody ruin - after all, attacking over five miles into the gunfire range of supporting artillery that can kill you with a near miss is basically what WW1 infantry had to do...

Right, i'm starting to understand this more. If a few of the Allied bridgeheads could be eliminated at the cost of the attacking formations would that be worth it? The Germans in the long run will have less reserves in the campaign but they will have dealt more damage earlier.

My newest post is basically setting the stage for a German defence, without much of the panzer assets, in the coming weeks.
 
Right, i'm starting to understand this more. If a few of the Allied bridgeheads could be eliminated at the cost of the attacking formations would that be worth it? The Germans in the long run will have less reserves in the campaign but they will have dealt more damage earlier.

Any damage done to the Western Allies will be rapidly repaired. The Germans cannot fix their gutted divisions so easily.

So, in the long run the Germans will lose Normandy faster.
 
Any damage done to the Western Allies will be rapidly repaired. The Germans cannot fix their gutted divisions so easily.

So, in the long run the Germans will lose Normandy faster.

Your probably right, will see as TTL goes on what reserves i can scrunch together for the Germans.

Damage to units yes can be repaired, but what about psychological? Confidence decreased?

The area the Germans have to cover is decreased, by the number of bridgeheads destroyed. Like the Germans don't have to heavily cover the Omaha beach area or along the Orne, unless the allies attempt another landing there. Paraphrasing Napoleon perhaps they gain "space" at the cost of "time."
 
Part 7: The Lines Began to Crack

On the 11th of June after meeting with Obergruppenfuhrer Sepp Dietrich, the commander of the 1st SS Corps, Field Marshal Erwin Rommel issued a memo to German High Command on the strategy going forward.

“As a result of the stubborn defence of the coast troops and the immediate counter attacks launched by the available armoured reserves, the enemy attack, despite the strength of his effort, has gone considerably more slowly than he had hoped. The enemy also seems to be committing more forces than he had originally planned.

Under cover of his very strong air force, the enemy is visibly reinforcing himself on land, and neither our air force nor our navy is in a position, especially by day, to offer him any hindrance. Consequently the enemy forces in the bridgehead are growing at a considerable rate.

For the present the Army Group must content itself with forming a continuous front between the Orne and Vire out of forces which are gradually arriving, and allowing the enemy to move up to it. Unfortunately, it will not be possible, in these circumstances, to relieve the troops still holding out at many points along the coast.

The Army Group is endeavoring to replace the armoured formations now in line as soon as possible by infantry, so that the armour can be used to form mobile reserves again behind the front.

The course of the battle in Normandy to date gives a clear indication of the enemy’s intentions. A) to gain a deep bridgehead between the Orne and Vire, as a springboard for a powerful attack later into the interior of France, probably towards Paris. B) to cut off the Cotentin peninsula and gain possession of Cherbourg as soon as possible, in order to provide himself with a major port of large landing capacity.

The Army Group also intends to shift the centre of gravity of its operations into the Carentan-Montebourg area during the next few days, in order to hold the Americans in that sector and divert the danger from Cherbourg. Not until then can any attack be made against the British between the Orne and Vire.

The material equipment of the Americans, with numerous new weapons and war material, is far and away superior to that of ours. The enemy armoured formations, as Obergruppenfuhrer Sepp Dietrich has informed me, appear to fight their actions at longer ranges of as much as 2,500 yards, using vast quantities of ammunition and with magnificent air support.

It should be cautioned against undertaking any major clean up of the front by offensive methods, as this would further expend the strength of the already exhausted panzer divisions. Infantry divisions are to be put into the Orne and Carentan-Montebourg sectors. Panzer divisions at present to move west of Caen and reserve armoured formations to be assembled on the flanks. After completion, a limited withdrawal to be made southwards, with the object of launching an armoured thrust into the flank of the advancing enemy and fighting a battle away from the enemy’s naval artillery.

The 12 SS Hitlerjugend and the Panzer Lehr Divisions are to be withdrawn south to the area of St. Lo and Avranches. In there place the 6th Fallschirmjager Regiment, the 709th Infantry Division, the 91st Infantry Division and the 352nd Infantry Division will continue to hold the front. In a few days the 17th SS Panzergrenadier Division, the 243rd Infantry Division, the 77th Infantry Division, the 355th Infantry Division and the entire Fallschirmjager corps will have arrived to support the defenders in the Carentan-Montebour area.

The 10th SS Panzer Division Frundsberg is already in the process of deploying west of Caen between Tilly-sur-Seulles and the Odon River. It will be joined by the remnants of the 21st Panzer Division and the 9th SS Panzer Division Hohenstaufen, which due to heavy fighting now are no more than small reinforced battle groups. In the place of 21st Panzer and the 12th SS, the 711th Infantry Division, the 272nd Infantry Division, the 326th Infantry Division and the 16th Luftwaffe Reserve Division will be brought up to the Orne front north of Caen."


On the 12th of June just as Rommel was beginning to put his plans into action disaster struck. The Americans opened a large scale offensive against the Carentan-Montebourg sector, backed by a heavy bombardment and air attacks. Shortly after the start of the onslaught German corps commander General Erich Marcks, who had personally arrived to lead the battle, was killed in an attack by Allied aircraft. This was then followed two days later by the death of Brigadefuhrer Fritz Witt, the commader of the 12th SS, who was killed by an allied naval barrage. On the 16th Cartentan fell to the triumphant Allies, the German lines were beginning to crack. If it was not for the timely arrival of the 101st SS Heavy Tank Battalion, lead in person by Sepp Dietrich, and the 17th SS Panzergrenadier Division the Allies surely would have achieved a major breakthrough.

The British meanwhile were beginning a series of probing attacks against the German front lines. Having succeeded in taking Bayeux the British began to push further into the Forest of Cerisy and along the Bayeux-St.Lo road. These attempts were blocked by the 3rd Fallschirmjager Divison, which after some minor skirmishes managed to dissuade the British. Further east elements of the British 49th and 50th Infantry divisions also began probing southwards towards Tilly-sur-Seulles and Villers-Bocage only to be halted by elements of the 10th SS and 102nd SS Heavy Tank Battalion, after heavy fighting on the 13th of June.

With these latest developments, Rommel’s plans were slightly disrupted. The 12th SS Panzer Division Hitlerjugend was tied to the front would not be able to withdrawal in the foreseeable future. Elsewhere things went more smoothly for the Germans, the Fallschirmjager corps and 77th Infantry Division moved north of St-Lo and relieved the Panzer Lehr Division of its duties. In addition to this infantry units were flooding north of Caen and the two Panzer Divisions holding that sector were being withdrawn. Only time would tell whether the Germans lines would crack or hold.

Any input on the newest part?

thanks:D
 

sharlin

Banned
I do have to wonder what the masses of allied fighters, bombers, ground attack aircraft etc were doing when the SS and friends were running roughshod over the Allies. Playing cricket and yelling 'tally ho' at one another?
 
Additinal Panzer Divisions can be brought up

SS Das Reich
9th Panzer
116th Panzer
Panzer Lehr

However, the best German straategy now, havig severely disrupted the Allied landings is a fighting withdrawl into France. Though the counter attack came close to causing the entire landing to fail it was not quite close enough.
 
I do have to wonder what the masses of allied fighters, bombers, ground attack aircraft etc were doing when the SS and friends were running roughshod over the Allies. Playing cricket and yelling 'tally ho' at one another?

Grounded by poor weather in Britain perhaps?
 
I do have to wonder what the masses of allied fighters, bombers, ground attack aircraft etc were doing when the SS and friends were running roughshod over the Allies. Playing cricket and yelling 'tally ho' at one another?

The German 3rd Flak Corps was brought up to the front in this TTL at Rommel's suggestion. It should provide some cover, but overall you are right they would be getting wailed on. The Allies apparently lost 127 Aircraft on the first day, so with the Flak Corps there i think losses would probably be much worse.

In OTL the Flak Corps was very far behind the front and not available in the first week or so.
 
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Nothing i should have made that clearer. I was just saying that they were finally advancing further in that area, having already capture Bayeux as normal. :D

What they stopped for tea for the best part of a week?:D

With all the talk of tactical air forces and naval gunfire, what I think you're missing is the actual strength of the landing forces. While for the British beaches it is assumed that an infantry division landed on each beach, the reality is slightly different. Generally their units were over strength, had an extra infantry or commando brigade and an attached armoured brigade; in effect an infantry division AND an armoured division. Plus follow on divisions were scheduled to start arriving almost immediately.

When you look at the numbers it is difficult to see how a Panzer division will make much headway, especially once the Allies had time to organise defensive positions and artillery support, including naval gunfire.
 
Plus on each of the American beaches they were able to get over 100,000 men ashore by June 12, just 6 days after the landing. Not to mention tens of thousands of vehicles and guns.
 
Of the six German divisions in von Vietinghoff's 10th Army at the time of AVALANCHE, five were motorized or armored (the sixth was a parachute division); they were not exactly the dregs of the German forces in the West.

Best,


I've been researching German forces at Salerno, they weren't that good, all six divisions were under strength.

The 16th Panzer Division had only 35 operational tanks, the 15th Panzergrenadier had only 7 support tanks and the 26th Panzer Division actually had 0 tanks! It is absolutely amazing that the Germans were able to reach within a mile and a half of the coast at Salerno with forces like this!

I think TTL Normandy counter attacks with 300+ tanks are more likely to succeed!
 
Check the effectiveness of Rommel's last mass tank attack against the British at Medenine - it didn't work out well for him.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Check the effectiveness of Rommel's last mass tank attack against the British at Medenine - it didn't work out well for him.
I just checked the Wiki on that, and it describes the British having "massive force superiority". Now, I find it interesting that they had that with fewer divisions present than Rommel did by about 30%... (3 + 1 Arm brigade, as against 5 for Rommel.)
 
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