Its not as much like the Germans actually pushed it back and stormed the beaches. More the British thought the position at Sword beach was isolated and too costly to hold. I thought it would be a better option for the British to transfer the forces to another beach, then continue to bleed themselves. So its more of British decision and a German victory.
“Where the Valkyries Rode the Skies” Alternate Normandy Timeline
- Thread starter hasdrubal barca
- Start date
Its not as much like the Germans actually pushed it back and stormed the beaches. More the British thought the position at Sword beach was isolated and too costly to hold. I thought it would be a better option for the British to transfer the forces to another beach, then continue to bleed themselves. So its more of British decision and a German victory.
You are correct the Germans are going through their reserves fast. Also i just wanted to say the Allies aren't done quiet yet
.I'd say that's not really the right call. An evacuation is a lot more dangerous than staying put, and doesn't have any real advantages. The Germans aren't going to push the Allies into the sea without losses becoming preventative. Really, there's not much point in going to another beach.
It also seems rather out of character for Monty. The man was rather good at adapting his thinking once a battle began, and exploiting the circumstances to his advantage. He'd also like to avoid the negative press from a withdrawal. It seems more likely that he'd hold his ground, prepare to counterattack, and then spin the whole thing as another classic Alamein/Mareth Line.
TFSmith121
Banned
The Germans could not accomplish this at:
The Germans could not accomplish this at:
Okay.
The Germans could not accomplish this at:
- Gela,
- Salerno, or
- Anzio
Okay.
Some things do not ring true:
21st Panzer hanging on to Perriers ridge - this is close enough to the beaches that it would be taken by an infantry assault supported by artillery and tactical air, rather than by an armoured brigade.
Canadian division heading for Caen - is it more likely that they would thrust between Caen and Perriers to loosen up 21st Panzer in front of Sword beach?
9th and 10th SS Panzer making good headway against Sword beach - the British have time to prepare their defences and are powerfully armed with a full armoured brigade (as many tanks as an armoured division) 72 105mm guns in the divisional artillery, strong anti-tank units with some 17lbers, etc. Also by June 7th there were 2 brigades of 51st Highland Division ashore.
Allied and German forces getting entangled - AFAIK there were pretty clear front lines by the evening of D-Day.
I do not believe that Montgomery would withdraw forces - it is simply too difficult an operation. Diverting follow on forces to other beaches is more likely, with the aim of outflanking the German advances.
21st Panzer hanging on to Perriers ridge - this is close enough to the beaches that it would be taken by an infantry assault supported by artillery and tactical air, rather than by an armoured brigade.
Canadian division heading for Caen - is it more likely that they would thrust between Caen and Perriers to loosen up 21st Panzer in front of Sword beach?
9th and 10th SS Panzer making good headway against Sword beach - the British have time to prepare their defences and are powerfully armed with a full armoured brigade (as many tanks as an armoured division) 72 105mm guns in the divisional artillery, strong anti-tank units with some 17lbers, etc. Also by June 7th there were 2 brigades of 51st Highland Division ashore.
Allied and German forces getting entangled - AFAIK there were pretty clear front lines by the evening of D-Day.
I do not believe that Montgomery would withdraw forces - it is simply too difficult an operation. Diverting follow on forces to other beaches is more likely, with the aim of outflanking the German advances.
Is it? The Allies now have a small British bridgehead and the US lodgement at Utah. The Germans have suffered quite severe losses to achieve this but it is questionable whether the Allied bridgehead is really viable at his point. Cerainly both the British and the US are quite containable by the German forces and a deadly final blow could be dealt by that infamous Channel Storm.
The Yugoslavia Plan requires some considerable rethinking but, after the failure of Overlord, might well be considered the only viable alternative for the Western Allies.
If the Western Allies can hold things together after the failure of Overlord they will still win WW2 in the end.It will however take rather longer with the first Atom Bombs dropped on German, rather than Japanese cities in August 1945.
If not then the Western Allies have to negotiate a seperate peace with Hitler ad Germany transfers large forces to the Russian Front for a fight to the finish with Stalin....
Your analysis sounds valid. We can even pretend Sword Beach isn't eliminated, i don't plan on having 9th SS, 21st Panzer or the 716th Infantry Div doing much anytime soon. We can have them basically holding a ring around Sword beach for the time being, if that sounds preferable.
Any idea what Dempsey's views would be?
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Here's the thing. Even if we assume that for whatever reason, the Allies have now lost two beaches, the Germans have lost far far more. Multiple panzer divisions have been shredded. The German ability to counterattack at all is wasted, but things get worse when the role the panzers have to play in Normandy is considered. IRL, they were committed simply to hold the line against the Allies. Now, instead of holding the line, they've been ground down in counterattacks which have achieved little other than delaying and inflicting casualties. The Allies will continue to pour troops into Normandy, and they'll have an easier time of the coming fight. The Germans are fighting within range of naval gunfire and have depleted several divisions key to holding the line.
Rethink it all you like, the plan isn't feasible. Viable alternatives include a repeat of Overlord, Anvil/Dragoon, or anything else that doesn't involve landing a force on terrible beaches into terrain which is totally unsuited to swift advance by a modern army.
As i am explaining poorly this was not my intention. Omaha yes, Sword just the British pulling out and diverting troops to Juno. My feeling was that British having, blown, or failed to hold the bridges over of Orne, would find this position useless and want to focus on driving towards Caen from Juno. The advance from Juno seems like a more direct rout, that could be exploited.
As others have said there are reasons for this not happening.
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This sounds more like what i was going for. The British relocate forces further west and then 7th Armoured with more support tries to drive south.
Except the Orne river and canal provide a double water obstacle on the left hand flank of the British beaches - giving up Sword makes it far easier for the Germans to build bridges and attack parallel to the coast, or even bring up artillery to shell Juno.
There's a very good novelisation of this: Derek Robinson, The Eldorado Network (1979), and a sequel, Artillery of Lies, both worth reading.
TFSmith121
Banned
Yep, there is that...
Yep, there is that...
OVERLORD and NEPTUNE were, despite the blood and treasure expended, about as close to sure thing that is possible in warfare. Air and naval supremacy and military superiority have that effect...
As Kinkaid was quoted about Surigao Strait, "never give a sucker an even break."
Best,
Yep, there is that...
OVERLORD and NEPTUNE were, despite the blood and treasure expended, about as close to sure thing that is possible in warfare. Air and naval supremacy and military superiority have that effect...
As Kinkaid was quoted about Surigao Strait, "never give a sucker an even break."
Best,
I agree with you on the rest, but as for the Shermans - hit them from behind while they're Laager'd and there you go. The Sherman did have the nicknames "Tommy Cooker" and "Ronson" for a reason.
Saphroneth
Banned
Isn't a laager pointing out? Hard to his the behinds then...
In any case, the Sherman was actually alright against the Panzer IV, and alright shouldn't result in that kind of K/D ratio. Hell, striking from ambush shouldn't result in that kind of K/D ratio except against an all-Tiger unit. (4 Shermans for 1 Tiger?)
I only picked it because Kurt Meyer supposedly in OTL achieved a similar kill ratio in an engagement with Shermans
Part 7: The Lines Began to Crack
On the 11th of June after meeting with Obergruppenfuhrer Sepp Dietrich, the commander of the 1st SS Corps, Field Marshal Erwin Rommel issued a memo to German High Command on the strategy going forward.
“As a result of the stubborn defence of the coast troops and the immediate counter attacks launched by the available armoured reserves, the enemy attack, despite the strength of his effort, has gone considerably more slowly than he had hoped. The enemy also seems to be committing more forces than he had originally planned.
Under cover of his very strong air force, the enemy is visibly reinforcing himself on land, and neither our air force nor our navy is in a position, especially by day, to offer him any hindrance. Consequently the enemy forces in the bridgehead are growing at a considerable rate.
For the present the Army Group must content itself with forming a continuous front between the Orne and Vire out of forces which are gradually arriving, and allowing the enemy to move up to it. Unfortunately, it will not be possible, in these circumstances, to relieve the troops still holding out at many points along the coast.
The Army Group is endeavoring to replace the armoured formations now in line as soon as possible by infantry, so that the armour can be used to form mobile reserves again behind the front.
The course of the battle in Normandy to date gives a clear indication of the enemy’s intentions. A) to gain a deep bridgehead between the Orne and Vire, as a springboard for a powerful attack later into the interior of France, probably towards Paris. B) to cut off the Cotentin peninsula and gain possession of Cherbourg as soon as possible, in order to provide himself with a major port of large landing capacity.
The Army Group also intends to shift the centre of gravity of its operations into the Carentan-Montebourg area during the next few days, in order to hold the Americans in that sector and divert the danger from Cherbourg. Not until then can any attack be made against the British between the Orne and Vire.
The material equipment of the Americans, with numerous new weapons and war material, is far and away superior to that of ours. The enemy armoured formations, as Obergruppenfuhrer Sepp Dietrich has informed me, appear to fight their actions at longer ranges of as much as 2,500 yards, using vast quantities of ammunition and with magnificent air support.
It should be cautioned against undertaking any major clean up of the front by offensive methods, as this would further expend the strength of the already exhausted panzer divisions. Infantry divisions are to be put into the Orne and Carentan-Montebourg sectors. Panzer divisions at present to move west of Caen and reserve armoured formations to be assembled on the flanks. After completion, a limited withdrawal to be made southwards, with the object of launching an armoured thrust into the flank of the advancing enemy and fighting a battle away from the enemy’s naval artillery.
The 12 SS Hitlerjugend and the Panzer Lehr Divisions are to be withdrawn south to the area of St. Lo and Avranches. In there place the 6th Fallschirmjager Regiment, the 709th Infantry Division, the 91st Infantry Division and the 352nd Infantry Division will continue to hold the front. In a few days the 17th SS Panzergrenadier Division, the 243rd Infantry Division, the 77th Infantry Division, the 355th Infantry Division and the entire Fallschirmjager corps will have arrived to support the defenders in the Carentan-Montebour area.
The 10th SS Panzer Division Frundsberg is already in the process of deploying west of Caen between Tilly-sur-Seulles and the Odon River. It will be joined by the remnants of the 21st Panzer Division and the 9th SS Panzer Division Hohenstaufen, which due to heavy fighting now are no more than small reinforced battle groups. In the place of 21st Panzer and the 12th SS, the 711th Infantry Division, the 272nd Infantry Division, the 326th Infantry Division and the 16th Luftwaffe Reserve Division will be brought up to the Orne front north of Caen."
On the 12th of June just as Rommel was beginning to put his plans into action disaster struck. The Americans opened a large scale offensive against the Carentan-Montebourg sector, backed by a heavy bombardment and air attacks. Shortly after the start of the onslaught German corps commander General Erich Marcks, who had personally arrived to lead the battle, was killed in an attack by Allied aircraft. This was then followed two days later by the death of Brigadefuhrer Fritz Witt, the commader of the 12th SS, who was killed by an allied naval barrage. On the 16th Cartentan fell to the triumphant Allies, the German lines were beginning to crack. If it was not for the timely arrival of the 101st SS Heavy Tank Battalion, lead in person by Sepp Dietrich, and the 17th SS Panzergrenadier Division the Allies surely would have achieved a major breakthrough.
The British meanwhile were beginning a series of probing attacks against the German front lines. Having succeeded in taking Bayeux the British began to push further into the Forest of Cerisy and along the Bayeux-St.Lo road. These attempts were blocked by the 3rd Fallschirmjager Divison, which after some minor skirmishes managed to dissuade the British. Further east elements of the British 49th and 50th Infantry divisions also began probing southwards towards Tilly-sur-Seulles and Villers-Bocage only to be halted by elements of the 10th SS and 102nd SS Heavy Tank Battalion, after heavy fighting on the 13th of June.
With these latest developments, Rommel’s plans were slightly disrupted. The 12th SS Panzer Division Hitlerjugend was tied to the front would not be able to withdrawal in the foreseeable future. Elsewhere things went more smoothly for the Germans, the Fallschirmjager corps and 77th Infantry Division moved north of St-Lo and relieved the Panzer Lehr Division of its duties. In addition to this infantry units were flooding north of Caen and the two Panzer Divisions holding that sector were being withdrawn. Only time would tell whether the Germans lines would crack or hold.
On the 11th of June after meeting with Obergruppenfuhrer Sepp Dietrich, the commander of the 1st SS Corps, Field Marshal Erwin Rommel issued a memo to German High Command on the strategy going forward.
“As a result of the stubborn defence of the coast troops and the immediate counter attacks launched by the available armoured reserves, the enemy attack, despite the strength of his effort, has gone considerably more slowly than he had hoped. The enemy also seems to be committing more forces than he had originally planned.
Under cover of his very strong air force, the enemy is visibly reinforcing himself on land, and neither our air force nor our navy is in a position, especially by day, to offer him any hindrance. Consequently the enemy forces in the bridgehead are growing at a considerable rate.
For the present the Army Group must content itself with forming a continuous front between the Orne and Vire out of forces which are gradually arriving, and allowing the enemy to move up to it. Unfortunately, it will not be possible, in these circumstances, to relieve the troops still holding out at many points along the coast.
The Army Group is endeavoring to replace the armoured formations now in line as soon as possible by infantry, so that the armour can be used to form mobile reserves again behind the front.
The course of the battle in Normandy to date gives a clear indication of the enemy’s intentions. A) to gain a deep bridgehead between the Orne and Vire, as a springboard for a powerful attack later into the interior of France, probably towards Paris. B) to cut off the Cotentin peninsula and gain possession of Cherbourg as soon as possible, in order to provide himself with a major port of large landing capacity.
The Army Group also intends to shift the centre of gravity of its operations into the Carentan-Montebourg area during the next few days, in order to hold the Americans in that sector and divert the danger from Cherbourg. Not until then can any attack be made against the British between the Orne and Vire.
The material equipment of the Americans, with numerous new weapons and war material, is far and away superior to that of ours. The enemy armoured formations, as Obergruppenfuhrer Sepp Dietrich has informed me, appear to fight their actions at longer ranges of as much as 2,500 yards, using vast quantities of ammunition and with magnificent air support.
It should be cautioned against undertaking any major clean up of the front by offensive methods, as this would further expend the strength of the already exhausted panzer divisions. Infantry divisions are to be put into the Orne and Carentan-Montebourg sectors. Panzer divisions at present to move west of Caen and reserve armoured formations to be assembled on the flanks. After completion, a limited withdrawal to be made southwards, with the object of launching an armoured thrust into the flank of the advancing enemy and fighting a battle away from the enemy’s naval artillery.
The 12 SS Hitlerjugend and the Panzer Lehr Divisions are to be withdrawn south to the area of St. Lo and Avranches. In there place the 6th Fallschirmjager Regiment, the 709th Infantry Division, the 91st Infantry Division and the 352nd Infantry Division will continue to hold the front. In a few days the 17th SS Panzergrenadier Division, the 243rd Infantry Division, the 77th Infantry Division, the 355th Infantry Division and the entire Fallschirmjager corps will have arrived to support the defenders in the Carentan-Montebour area.
The 10th SS Panzer Division Frundsberg is already in the process of deploying west of Caen between Tilly-sur-Seulles and the Odon River. It will be joined by the remnants of the 21st Panzer Division and the 9th SS Panzer Division Hohenstaufen, which due to heavy fighting now are no more than small reinforced battle groups. In the place of 21st Panzer and the 12th SS, the 711th Infantry Division, the 272nd Infantry Division, the 326th Infantry Division and the 16th Luftwaffe Reserve Division will be brought up to the Orne front north of Caen."
On the 12th of June just as Rommel was beginning to put his plans into action disaster struck. The Americans opened a large scale offensive against the Carentan-Montebourg sector, backed by a heavy bombardment and air attacks. Shortly after the start of the onslaught German corps commander General Erich Marcks, who had personally arrived to lead the battle, was killed in an attack by Allied aircraft. This was then followed two days later by the death of Brigadefuhrer Fritz Witt, the commader of the 12th SS, who was killed by an allied naval barrage. On the 16th Cartentan fell to the triumphant Allies, the German lines were beginning to crack. If it was not for the timely arrival of the 101st SS Heavy Tank Battalion, lead in person by Sepp Dietrich, and the 17th SS Panzergrenadier Division the Allies surely would have achieved a major breakthrough.
The British meanwhile were beginning a series of probing attacks against the German front lines. Having succeeded in taking Bayeux the British began to push further into the Forest of Cerisy and along the Bayeux-St.Lo road. These attempts were blocked by the 3rd Fallschirmjager Divison, which after some minor skirmishes managed to dissuade the British. Further east elements of the British 49th and 50th Infantry divisions also began probing southwards towards Tilly-sur-Seulles and Villers-Bocage only to be halted by elements of the 10th SS and 102nd SS Heavy Tank Battalion, after heavy fighting on the 13th of June.
With these latest developments, Rommel’s plans were slightly disrupted. The 12th SS Panzer Division Hitlerjugend was tied to the front would not be able to withdrawal in the foreseeable future. Elsewhere things went more smoothly for the Germans, the Fallschirmjager corps and 77th Infantry Division moved north of St-Lo and relieved the Panzer Lehr Division of its duties. In addition to this infantry units were flooding north of Caen and the two Panzer Divisions holding that sector were being withdrawn. Only time would tell whether the Germans lines would crack or hold.
Hey,
Here is my next post. Germans having expended most of their Panzer reserves in destroying the Omaha and Sword bridgeheads and have been forced on the strategic defence.
I'm trying to get away from, perhaps ASB, bridgehead smashing and transitioning to a normal campaign.
Thanks, All Comments welcome!
Here is my next post. Germans having expended most of their Panzer reserves in destroying the Omaha and Sword bridgeheads and have been forced on the strategic defence.
I'm trying to get away from, perhaps ASB, bridgehead smashing and transitioning to a normal campaign.
Thanks, All Comments welcome!
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