“European” Native Americans

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by TheOpossum, Mar 17, 2019.

  1. Zwide Well-Known Member

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    You're right, white supremacy totally isn't a problem today. That murderous rampage in Christchurch where an alt-right incel livestreamed himself killing 50 people? Didn't happen, wasn't a problem. Dylann Roof's massacre, the synagogue shooting, illegal immigrant kids being put into concentration camps, the deadly riots in Charleston...you're right, none of these things are "issues in our time". Nothing to see there, racism doesn't exist anymore, we totally aren't seeing an upswing in incels and nazis committing more and more acts of mass violence.

    And miss me with that nonsense about how the HBD people aren't actually racist, they just believe that "white people evolved differently". There's an enormous overlap between the HBD crowd and the vermin I described in my paragraph. HBD is an attempt to legitimize racism under the smokescreen of pseudoscience. You can't possibly believe that people like Jared Taylor or Richard Spencer aren't actually white supremacists, just that "they believe white people evolved differently."

    No, race is more or less completely imaginary. Both of these people are technically "black":

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    But in terms of phenotype, religion, culture, etc they may so little in common that group labels like "Black" or even "East African" are essentially meaningless.

    Same with these two people, who are both Indian:

    [​IMG]

    They're both Tamil from the south of India, same city, same genetics, but they look completely different from each other. The woman could probably pass for a local in most of Southern Europe. Are her and the guy (her husband) "different races"?

    There do exist relatively homogenous genetic groups, but the grey areas between different "races" are so enormous and populous that the entire concept becomes completely meaningless.
     
  2. Kevin Renner Well-Known Member

    Race is a nebulous term at best. And a deeply distructive one at worst. And it is also a belief system for lack of a better word that seems to attract some of the vilest individuals. A belief rooted In a belief that they as individuals and their ethnic group are a "master race". And this occurs in all human populations.The notion that only Europeans can be racist is complete bullshit in my opinion. As the average Han Chinese about what they think of other ethnic groups.
    The OP of the thread asked about what would be the effects of a substantial population of people in the Americas of "European descent". I saw nothing implying any racial superiority in the question. The question is no different than say "the great Bantu migration moves north and results in substantial Sub-Saharan African population in Europe". Or Australian Aboriginal people's are represented in American populations. Or a Polynesian America. If there was a population is in the OP isuspect they'd get screwed over just as bad as the OTL
     
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  3. Zwide Well-Known Member

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    There's nothing implying racial superiority in the OP, but it is a little weird that the only "racial replacement" threads seem to involve "white" people being in larger numbers in some random part of the world. There have been a slew of posts involving white people being the first ones to colonize the Americas, a "white ethnostate" surviving in Afghanistan/Pakistan, and so on and so forth. It's pretty strange IMO that a bunch of these posts have suddenly appeared in the last month or so.

    And if I'm being honest, these kinds of concepts are common white nationalist tropes. WN's love the Solutrean hypothesis and claiming that the ancient Indians, ancient Egyptians etc were white. The idea behind this is that only white people can really create civilization. Not saying OP believes this, but context explains why people get uncomfortable with these kinds of posts. On the other side of the coin, it would be pretty odd if we had weekly posts about "making Native Americans black" or "making the Chinese black".

    Race is really just a stupid concept. Human genetics exist on a massive spectrum and there are billions of people who don't fit neatly into any racial category. Within certain races, moreover, there are such gigantic differences in phenotype even among family members that the concept becomes meaningless.

    The "white Native Americans" question is redundant anyway since, as some others have mentioned, there's no way that the "white Native Americans" would look anything like Germans or Scandinavians after 10,000 years of isolation. They'd look as similar to Europeans as the Yanomamo Indians do to Koreans (i.e not in the least bit).
     
  4. Jan Olbracht Well-Known Member

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    Northern European skintone propably require two conditions: high lattitude and farming. And outside Europe (where farming is possible all the way to Central Scandinavia thanks to Golfstrom) there is hardly any place with agriculture being possible so far from Equator. Hunter-gatherers could obtain vitamin D from fish and meat, thus they don't need light skin even in high lattitudes. OTOH Icelanders, who had lots of fish in their diet, have not re-evolved dark skin (light skin was not necessary with such diet to obtain enough vitamin D, but at the same time pale complexion is not obstacle in low UV environment, so there is evolutionary pressure change it back). So before getting to America, 'white people' would need to evolve white skin as European farmers, then turn back to hunting-gathering and cross Siberia to get to Americas. Thus it would need to happen no earlier than during neolithic period, long after Americas were populated. So IMHO we could discus 'what if Native Americans looked European' as some thought experiment, not something that could really happen without changes of Earth's geography.
     
  5. Umbral Member Monthly Donor

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    Pretty much. Although the development of the skin tone preceded farming in Scandinavia by thousands of years, while I think it followed farming in Southern Europe. So I think it can be related to a number of different changes in diet. My personal speculation is that the end of the Ice Age cause a massive shift in the food strategies of people, which led to paler skin becoming an advantage in higher latitudes. Anyway, as I posted earlier, getting the megalith builders of western Europe to the Americas would do it.
     
  6. Albert.Nik Transhumanist,Aspiring Metaphysicist Banned

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    OTL convergent evolution of different White groups could also be observed. For example,Sami and Caucasian peoples and even some Northern Europeans don't share the common European Haplogroups associated with Indo-Europeans,R1a and R1b. R1a is mostly dominating in the Eastern regions of Europe except Greece,North and Central Asia,Iran and India. R1b dominates France,Italy,Iberia,Parts of Turkey,UK,Ireland,Germany,Greece and parts of Central Asia and Northern fringes of South Asia. Finns,many Swedes and Norsemen,Sami,Caucasian peoples including Armenians,Burusho,Basque,Etruscans(now extinct in pure form) all have different and diverse Haplogroups. Yet,you can see that these groups look almost the same. So could this possible Convergent Evolution happen with Native Americans too?
     
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  7. Bassarion Korax Well-Known Member

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    I’m not even going to entertain this emotional diatribe with a proper response other than to say that I’m going to report you for derailing this thread. I’m sick and tired of members like yourselves coming into these discussions and trying to politicize them. It’s fucking ridiculous, and it needs to stop.
     
  8. Skallagrim Not the one from YouTube. Different other fellow.

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    I dunno about reporting anyone, but please stop making everything political, @Zwide. You complain that there are too many (in fact, you claim "only") threads that feature white people in places they didn't live in OTL. In the last month alone, I've seen three different threads about re-working The Years of Rice and Salt, which is basically "a world where Europeans go nearly exinct and the West becomes utterly meaningless to history". (There may have been more along the same vein, I just saw the three.) Furthermore, "Native Americans do way better against the Europeans" is a pretty frequently discussed subject, too. (Usually, the discussion is about Native American domesticates and/or disease resistance.) But apparently, you have only ever seen the specific threads that you happen perceive as being ill-intended. That's probably just an unfortunate co-incidence, but the result is that you end up living in a world of imaginary hobgoblins. Whatever AH.com is, however, a secret cabal of white supremacists it is not. And if you happen to think that a certain topic is underrepresented... there's always the "post new thread" button.

    Anyway, in spite of the implausibility of the premise of this thread, the discussion has led to a wide variety of interesting diversions and argumentations that can be incredibly useful to a number of other discussions or scenarios. I'm not well-versed enough to contribute much to the thread besides one post a few pages back, but several people have contributed various well-reasoned replies that told me stuff I didn't know before. Not just about the OP, but also about actual history, anthropology, genetics etc. -- I like it when that happens, because learning new stuff is interesting. The fact that it's happening here automatically means that this is, thus far, a good thread.
     
  9. Albert.Nik Transhumanist,Aspiring Metaphysicist Banned

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    The problem is that this has become common. A few members usually exaggerating everything related to Europeans and related subjects and posting irrelevant messages like these is quite odd. There are many threads of Indian colonized Australia,Natives first venturing out of Americas,Chinese dominated world,Ottomon Europe,etc. Everywhere the discussions are normal. This particular member is usually been posting lengthy but totally irrelevant posts in multiple threads. As Skallagrim has clarified,all the concerns are untrue.
     
  10. Zwide Well-Known Member

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    To be fair, there are plenty of threads of about certain language families or ethnicities ending up in different places where they did OTL. This makes sense, as language families and ethnicities are an actual thing. Race, however, is not. Imagine if I made one thread per week asking how "we could make Europe brown" or "make India Asian". In fairness most of these threads have been made by @Albert.Nik so it's likely just his personal interest in the subject more than anything.

    My entry on the thread wasn't really because of the OP, it was more because of gems like this:

    To summarize, these are @Bassarion Korax's points:

    -White supremacists don't exist
    -The HBD crowd have absolutely no ties to white supremacy, they just think whites have a "differently adapted brain"
    -There aren't any white supremacists "on the prowl today" (lol)
    -People who get labeled "white supremacists" aren't actually white supremacists
    -These poor people who get maligned as "white supremacists" aren't racist, they just think people are "differently adapted".
    -White Supremacy is not an issue in our time

    To understand why this post is so ridiculous (and honestly pretty suspicious), let's just rewind to the Christchurch attacks, the NJ Synagogue shooting, Dylann Roof's massacre, or any number of alt-right WN atrocities committed over the last ten years. Or, when we put this post in the context of the massive and virulent online racist movement, it becomes a lot clearer why this needs to get called out.

    I'd say that making excuses for WN scientific racism and violent white supremacy isn't exactly a good look, wouldn't you?
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2019
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  11. Bassarion Korax Well-Known Member

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    Now you’re just trolling. I am happy to continue this conversation with you in PMs or off site, but you, like the other member who i was replying to when I wrote that are actively derailing this thread in your little quest to shutdown discussion of topics you don’t like.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2019
  12. Zwide Well-Known Member

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    Feb 11, 2016
    Instead of fleeing to PM's, I'd rather discuss this here. You made those points, defended those white supremacists, and tried to whitewash HBD (pun not intended). That's why I called you out.

    I think the forum deserves to hear your rationale behind making those points, don't you? Those are pretty bold statements, so the least you could do is buck up and discuss them instead of throwing a tantrum when you get called on them.

    And for the record, I really could care less if a couple "make X part of the world white" posts pop up on here. Straight up making excuses for white supremacists is another matter entirely.
     
  13. Bassarion Korax Well-Known Member

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    Oh, I’m “fleeing”... indeed. I didn’t make excuses for anyone. I made an observation, an observation because another user was derailing the thread. Now, I’m done here. @CalBear?
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2019
  14. Kevin Renner Well-Known Member

    I agree about the WN types latching on to things like the Solutrean Hypothesis. One thing I always wonder about is why is it the people who believe themselves to be superior always look like walking advertisements for retroactive abortion.

    I've said this before and I'll repeat it here. The peopling of the Americas (as well as the rest of Earth) is probably far more complex a story than we realize. Full of unlikely twists and turns. And in most cases the people on the forefront of the wave had no destination in mind. They were following the game and the seasons. The only time there may have been people "exploring" is possibly in the case of them looking for the source of a resource they used. One item Stanford has suggested is drift wood.

    As to who came to the Americas first. It's possible that humans arrived before the Northeastern Siberians (actually the Northeastern Siberians were most likely the first "Americans" as the North American/Asian Plate Boundry is somewhere in Eastern Siberia) but the first arrivals either didn't survive due to climatic issues, natural disasters or possibly being killed of by later arrivals. And if they were thin enough on the ground plus add in the changes to landscapes due to the floods at the end of the last glacial period we may never find evidence of them.

    As to how the first "Americans" got there strongly suspect it was by boat. If Alaskans sprinted down the ice free corridor te most likely ran into distant relatives who went by sea.
     
  15. Zwide Well-Known Member

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    Feb 11, 2016
    The real question is why your "observations" seem to be little more than you making excuse after excuse for a group/ideology that has committed some of the worst atrocities in modern history. You verbatim said that white nationalists were not a threat, that the HBD crowd isn't racist, and that "different groups of people evolved differently". It's pretty mindblowing that you would write a post like this a week after a white supremacist slaughtered fifty people in cold blood because of their religion.

    You'd be getting similar criticisms (for me at least) if you made similar excuses for Jihadists or some other anti-human hate group.

    The least you can do is own up to what you said and apologize, instead of trying to constantly move the goalposts (coincidentally a favorite tactic of the people who you're making excuses for).
     
  16. Albert.Nik Transhumanist,Aspiring Metaphysicist Banned

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    This thread is seriously going off track. This is about Ancient and Pre Historic Native Americans and not the debate that is happening in the past few posts. It's better if those are moved elsewhere.
     
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  17. TheOpossum Well-Known Member

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    We can maybe butterfly those migrations from Siberia away?
     
  18. Bassarion Korax Well-Known Member

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    I have nothing to apologize for. You’re reading things into my posts that aren’t there. I never stated my opinion on HBD, I stated what my observations were regarding the HBD crowd. I never named specific figures, either. Even Brenton Tarrant though, who you are continuously referencing, said nothing about racial supremacy in all 87 pages of his manifesto. In fact, he specifically denied being such in the Q&A section of it. Belief in racial supremacy is not a prerequisite for race-based crime or racial animosity. Believing that it is paints a rather childish picture that couldn’t be further from the truth of the problem. People are capable of hating people and using that hate for violence without thinking they’re inherently better than them objectively.

    Now, I have repeatedly stated that I was not interested in having this discussion here, and you have repeatedly refused to respect my requests to either drop it or have it elsewhere. This is not because I’m “fleeing” or otherwise afraid, but because I only said what I said earlier to stop another user from derailing this thread with his notions of political correctness, and if I were to have this discussion with you AT ALL, it would be with you and you only, because I don’t want to have to respond to all the other people who would likely like to comment. I’m actually a very busy person. I’m writing a timeline that requires an enormous amount of research, I work full time, and I’m married. I don’t have time to engage 20 people, especially not in a thread that was NOT INTENDED TO BE ABOUT THIS TOPIC. Unfortunately, it would seem that pretentious folks like you have derailed it beyond repair. Now, anyone looking to actually discuss the subject material has to scroll passed long strings of comments that are off topic, it doesn’t seem many people want to do that.

    What you have done here is not only disrespectful to myself, but also to the OP and to other members interested in this topic. If anyone owes an apology here, it’s you.

    Now, @CalBear , I have reported at least three of these posts for derailing and one of them for an invitation to dogpile, I’ve even tagged you. This thread is NOT about White Supremacy or any modern political/social issue, and I have stated that I am happy to have this discussion in private messages or off site in the interest of keeping the thread on topic. And yet, here we are, with Zwide still seemingly trying to provoke an incident of some sort. I’ve been told by other members on here that I’m not supposed to PM the mods. Is there something else I’m supposed to do to get your attention? Tell me what it is and I’ll do it gleefully.
     
  19. Umbral Member Monthly Donor

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    Difficult without a geologic POD. Siberia is right next to the Americas, very close geographically, its just moving along the same latitude, same climate, same marine environment, similar fauna mostly. People gonna people.

    Haplogroups are only a small part of the genome. People with different haplogroupos can look pretty similar if the haplogroups don't contribute to phenotype. Consider the case of the Basques where the male haplogroups went pretty much extinct at the coming of the Indo-Europeans, but they still cluster closer to Sardinian and EEF people. Or consider a European man who have sons with a woman with undiluted African heritage and a Native American woman. The half-brothers will have identical paternal haplotypes but look quite different.
     
  20. Albert.Nik Transhumanist,Aspiring Metaphysicist Banned

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    Or we could have a larger migration from the West rather than the East during the Neolithic and subsequent eras.