Μηδίζω! The World of Achaemenid Hellas

[Daeres]

Another excellent piece. I do particularly enjoy the parts about the cakes, and the subtle implications about the writers' cultures. Anshadat is a particular favourite, his grouchiness is as endearing as Hesiod's. I also look forward to reading more lunacy by Alithagur of Issh. A question, though, is Idonia India? Or the East Indes? Or Ceylon? Or, I suppose, it might even be America. Pride is clearly Britain, and upon careful rereading it seems Idonia might be sub-Saharan Africa. I am still unsure as to where Morika is. Amorica perhaps? Nonetheless, a most enjoyable read.

Morika includes Amorica but the definition when Gelo is writing extends further, it's effectively western Europe's Atlantic Seaboard, inclusive of Britain and Ireland. Idonia is, specifically, what we'd call West Africa, with the Orin river being what we'd call the Niger.

The slight irony is that Alithagur and Koiranos are, although separated by almost a millenia, native to the same city, Issa, and also both Hellenic language speakers.

 

[Workable Goblin]

I also look forward to reading more lunacy by Alithagur of Issh.

Cake is the root of all evil!

Also, krokos is clearly saffron; you missed that one.

 

[Frrf]

Also, krokos is clearly saffron; you missed that one.

Sorry, I cook with saffron a fair bit so I actually thought that was obvious. Now I feel foolish.

Morika includes Amorica but the definition when Gelo is writing extends further, it's effectively western Europe's Atlantic Seaboard, inclusive of Britain and Ireland. Idonia is, specifically, what we'd call West Africa, with the Orin river being what we'd call the Niger.

The slight irony is that Alithagur and Koiranos are, although separated by almost a millenia, native to the same city, Issa, and also both Hellenic language speakers.

Well, that makes me suspect some sort of Amorican empire is upcomming, and a powerful one at that. Though it may be a trading empire rather than a political one, and either way it would certainly be a major naval power. Hmm, I wonder if Alithagur is alone in his opinions, or if he is part of a cultural/religious/philosophical school. If he is, it does not bode well for the stability of the Hellenic world.

 

[Workable Goblin]

Sorry, I cook with saffron a fair bit so I actually thought that was obvious. Now I feel foolish.

I assumed you saw it; I mean you missed mentioning that one. Sorry about not being clear there.

 

[Timaeus]

Ooh... cinnamon... *drools*

Cinnamon is gross.

Great post as ever, Daeres.

HERETIC.

 

[Daztur]

Finalky caught up. Only a few TLs can get the voice of historical writings right and this one does it in spades.

I get that figuring out stuff is a big part of the TL but a few translations of place names would help as it's often hard to start guessing about the other names if you're thinking about the wrong part of the world.

On the other hand I got the Canary Islands right, was the previous post about an island about Great Britain?

 

[Libertad]

The world building here is getting more awesome. Incredible.

 

[Daeres]

Finalky caught up. Only a few TLs can get the voice of historical writings right and this one does it in spades.

I get that figuring out stuff is a big part of the TL but a few translations of place names would help as it's often hard to start guessing about the other names if you're thinking about the wrong part of the world.

On the other hand I got the Canary Islands right, was the previous post about an island about Great Britain?

I've been considering expanding the (relatively limited) wiki for the timeline to collate all the different ethnonyms, state names together for that reason. I find putting the translations in the source excerpts to be a bit immersion-breaking, at least for those entries where that's the goal, but I'm definitely on board with there being somewhere where these names are actually defined, Despite appearances I'm not against people understanding what I'm writing!

The island you're wondering about is the Isle of Wicta, which is specifically the Isle of Wight, although there are some references to the British mainland in that excerpt as well.

Oh, and as for people speculating about Armorica, a note: prior to Late Antiquity Armorica as a term was much more expansive, sometimes applied to the entirety of Gaul's west coast, inclusive of Aquitania. The name translates effectively 'coastland', so it's a fairly generic name all things considered. Thus the later conception/region of Morika in this timeline isn't automatically an indication of an Armorican Empire, though it certainly doesn't preclude that from being the case *anyway*.

As ever, thank you for the compliments everyone, I really do appreciate the fact that there are people who enjoy the timeline that much.

 

[B_Munro]

Cinnamon is gross.

As the OTL Greeks said, moderation in all things: cinnamon is fine as long as you don't overuse it.

I'm not actually sure which one you'll find more unusual, in the end, the Eastern Goths in India, or the Western Gothic kingdom based out of Moesia...

Personally I chuckled at "Basileus Wilhelm." Does this indicate that in the process of Juropan ethnogenesis, "Goths" becomes an ethnicity clearly marked out from the incipient Germanic-Celtic hodgepodge forming now (in the main timeline's progress)? Or is there a wider "German" identity?

(Moesia isn't that odd geographically, at least. It's where the Visigoths OTL first sallied into the Roman Empire, after all).

 

[Daeres]

Μηδίζω! THE WORLD OF ACHAEMENID HELLAS
CHAPTER 5: SPOROS or CIHYA

​

THE SEEDS OF HISTORY BY UPALI (c.120 BCE)
AGNIMITRA​

We turn now to this man, Agnimitra, King of Awanti, Conqueror of the Kamboja, Conqueror of the west and eastern seas, King of Kings, Lord of the Four Corners. A conqueror without limits, a man without fear, a king with no equal. He was the first man of Bharata’s lands who turned his eye, his hand, westward, towards the Kambojas, to Parasika, and further west still, to Parada, to Yona. His name continues to strike fear and respect in the lands of the westerners, as it will do for all the cycles of the world, the blood of Bharata’s children is now forever associated with majesty across the known world. Why did he do these things? Why did he conceive of, let alone embark upon, such an extraordinary, not to mention challenging, expedition? None had done so before, the thoughts and actions of this man Agnimitra require explanation through their uniqueness.

Those of the west believed that they had planted the germ of this idea by the attack of the Parasika and Kambojas upon the frontier of the Sindhu that had occurred some twenty years before Agnimitra’s accession to power, either in the understanding that cosmic retribution was being enacted for their misdeeds or in the understanding that this drew the attention of men of Bharata’s realm to the activities and kingdoms of the far west for the first time. But this was not the first time that the Kambojas or Parasika had conducted such attacks, many such attempts had been made by the time of this man, Agnimitra, and this attack was not particularly different from those that had previously occurred, Kurusha and his sons had professed dominion over the Sindhu for some time previously. Neither was this the first time that the west had been known to the lands of Bharata, as a homeland for would-be conquerors and peoples clamouring for spice it was of no additional prominence than it had been for the last two thousand years. This notion regarding the invasion of the Parasika and Kambojas is entirely insufficient, inadequate, to explain anything about why this expedition occurred. If such a thing was the case why did no other king lead a similar expedition westwards? Why was the expedition not launched by Indramitra, the father of Agnimitra? This particular man, in this particular time and place, launched this particular expedition, not a host of kings, and none who were king at the time that the attacks were taking place.

We cannot look to the great Chanakya alone either as the germ of this extraordinary idea, as others have done; firstly, even such a capable and renowned advisor as he would not have been capable of such severe alteration of a man of Kshatriya rank as to render someone who had never considered such an extraordinary expedition into somebody who would indeed consider such deeds; secondly, he would have chosen the court of Agnimitra because of things in the character of Agnimitra, such a man as Chanakya had such gifts and intelligence that, despite his young age, he would have been able to go to whichever state would accept his aid, therefore he must have picked upon Awanti and its king Agnimitra for existing characteristics and strengths of Agnimitra. Can we perhaps say that it was the character of the father of Agnimitra, Indramitra, that was the seed of all that would come afterwards? We cannot agree with this tempting assertion, for we do not find that Indramitra had traits that would have been passed on to his son that would have encouraged such ambitions, nor had he traits that would have encouraged their opposites. Indramitra was not a Buddhist or a Jain, he was a devotee of Rudra in particular, so he was not of a school that specifically and particularly advocated nonviolence. Nor was he a Lokayati and obsessed with the expansion of material interests. Nor was he bloodthirsty or hungry for war in his time as the king of his state, he prosecuted whichever wars were expedient and just and primarily in the direct defence of his kingdom. He was not a man who sought to conquer all in sight but was prevented by circumstance, he warred as he wished and to his discretion. He was open-minded but not someone who could be simply persuaded of any new idea or pressing thought that was pushed into his path just like that. He was a good king to his people.

There is no evidenced human factor that can explain the western expedition of Agnimitra, so we must instead realise that the direction to this path came directly from Indra to the mind of Agnimitra. We can cite a multitude of direct evidence for this inescapable conclusion. The extraordinary and unique quality of the thought, the idea to conquer the far west, had never occurred to anyone before and has not in a serious manner entered into the mind of anyone dwelling in the lands of Bharata since that time. In addition, the success of such extraordinary action, not only conquering these lands but the orderly succession of the sons of Agnimitra to his new titles, demonstrates the divine will behind these actions. We can also cite other, recorded examples where Indra has come to kings and rulers in order to motivate them in order to pursue some extraordinary action no human would conceive; the coming of Indra to Devadramila, for example, or the western legends of Indra coming to Kurusha, a famous king among those people. It is the most logical solution to the vexed question of why Agnimitra did these things. Even Buddhist scholars agree with this conclusion, for the spread of their teachings through the sons and daughters of Agnimitra was all accomplished as a result of Agnimitra’s conquests, and thus they see that this drastic course of action was fated and desired by the Gods.

A LETTER OF BASILEUS DEINARKHOS TO BOULAGORAS OF AKRAGAS (27 CE)
ON EUSTROPHOS​

​

It is my experience, dear brother, that one can never underestimate the potency that a single strong-willed and gifted man possesses. On the one hand there is the founder of the Kingdom of Syrakousai to whom we are indebted, Gelon, whose deeds I need not remind you of, and whose dynasty is the forebear of our own. On the other hand there is Pythagoras, founder of that school which stalks Italia. In a way perhaps the Pythagoreans are a closer relative to ours than we would care to readily admit. The legacies that both men left behind, king and philosopher, have waxed and waned, and yet both still remain. We have endured Karkhedon, the Tyrsenoi, the Italiotes, all attempts to subvert our lands by foreign invaders no matter how close they came. The Pythagoreans have endured two waves of purges of their followers and friends that in both cases reduced them to quiescence for decades afterwards. And indeed, have they not attempted to gain control of poleis as would-be-kings by strength of arms? Those of a more cunning and indomitable bent have succeeded in writing lawcodes, ruling over poleis, even contributed to the constitution of the Italiote League. I say to you that there is a Pythagorean Kingdom in rivalry to our own, brother, in much the same way as the Italiote League once was and the Tyrsenoi now are. In the unsettled times ahead we must not underestimate the legacy of Pythagoras. We must not underestimate any great men who rise above the throng, for a man need not conquer land to sow the seeds of a mighty kingdom. A man need not wear a diadem or be sworn as magistrate to assemble an army. Cultivate them, tame them, or destroy them, but do not ignore men of this kind, brother. So I say to you that you must either court this man Eustrophos of whom you told me, or you must execute him.

THE FOUNDATION OF EUROPA BY C. BANUNA BESSA BOTTAL (1585 CE)
THE LEGACY OF RASNA
​

When Tyrsenia proper was, at last, breached by the Aouerni and their formidable battalions, it was over. The mighty oak that had grown to such heights was now being felled. The Rasnatic Empire, which had risen from obscurity to titan of Middle Europa, was to be no more. And yet, in the moment of destruction, seeds of the mother oak were to fall to earth, germinate, and sprout. The title of Mechlar was adopted, indeed fought over, by the Keltoi, with the kings of the Aouerni in particularly claiming the somewhat tautological title of Meklar Rix. The Aouerni in particular had already adopted many technologies and tactics employed by the Rasnatic armies, not to mention the fact that Ollorix, son of Leukerix the Conqueror, employed surviving battalions of Rasna to preserve his kingdom in the wars with the Sekani. The administration of the Rasna was utterly destroyed through most of Hesperia, but the shape of the world that would emerge was determined as much by the features of the Rasna as the Keltoi that had conquered them. In addition, there were prominent exceptions to this otherwise total destruction of civilized life in the former Rasnatic Empire. Kapua, the southern capital of the Rasna, was not prepared to fall without a fight, eschewing the fatalism of many of their northern compatriots, and it was prepared to take the hand of old foes in order to survive; the alliance between the resurgent Italiote League and Kapua was uneasy, given Kapua’s key role in the occupation of Italia by the Rasna, but these allies of convenience proved a bulwark that finally halted the unstoppable progress of the Keltoi down Hesperia. In the end, this was the moment that forever shifted Kapua into the Hellenic world, though their Rasna heritage has never been forgotten. Nonetheless, all of her subsequent strength she inherited from her Rasnatic forebears. In addition to Kapua, two other branches of the Rasna remained free of invasion at this time, and like Kapua they defied the destruction around them, determined to seize mastery of their fate. We are of course referring to the islands Korse and Sardo. These islands, which for so long had been the secondary breadbaskets of the Rasna, were an ideal refuge for fleeing Rasna or their subjects. In addition to their agricultural wealth and isolation they possessed harbours, hard timbers, military colonists, and hardy mountaineers. These bastions were ideally placed to launch a counterattack against the Keltoi, given sufficient preparation. However the disastrous civil war, that deadly feud which enabled the Aouerni and Sekani to launch their campaign in the first place, never ended in Korse and Sardo. So many things could, and should, have brought these islands together for mutual benefit in these times, but it was not to be. Thus Korse and Sardo were to remain at odds throughout the Keltoi occupation of Hesperia. Both states survived despite their conflicts, these skirmishes and wars between one another did not interfere with their survival, but these pointless wars did distract their men and ships from any notion of common enterprise, and indeed wasted both in fruitless wars that always resulted in stalemate. The greatness which came to both islands subsequently could and perhaps should have been achieved earlier. Nonetheless, they succeeded in preserving a measure of the Rasnatic Empire, and never lost sight of their origins. When we speak of Europa, we speak of a land made in the image of the Rasna, warlords who never even encountered the Rasnatic Empire remade themselves in the image of these fallen titans, called themselves after some variation of Lauxum, built cities, claimed the favour of Tinia and Uni. The most important seed of the Rasna was that of civilization itself, which spread across all of Middle Europa, and even further beyond, just as the Hellenes had first introduced civilization to the Rasna.

RESISTANCE BY BRIGANZIA ENI-ARMORIG (537 CE)
THE EXAMPLE OF THE HELLENES

​

It seems to me, albeit as a humble outsider who has no relation to the Hellenes or their culture, that without the invasion of the Persians their western colonies and kingdoms would not have achieved such heights as they did. Without the influx of Hellenes into Syrakousai, albeit driven by the existing power of the greatest city of the Hellenic world, could Syrakousai have pushed the Qartadastim out of Sikelia altogether? I would wager not. Given the latter strength of that mighty nation, before its sundering, I would have said that eventually the Hellenes would have been conquered by the might of Qarthadast, or at best held the Qartadastim at bay in an uneasy stalemate that slowly ground down Hellenic sovereignty over their colonies on the island. Perhaps they would have had to subject themselves to dominion of another great power in their desperation to fend off their ancient rivals. We can express similar statements over the power of Massalia, which conquered and settled western Liguria, along with fortifying their borders and planting military colonies all across their territory. Their sea power was always strong, but this is not a good way of guarding a continental interior from a multitude of foes. Their wider territorial claims were only possible because of the influx of fellow Hellenes into the city, allowing for occupation of the surrounding territories, and this greater power also gave them a stronger hand in dealing with their immediate neighbours. I see no reason to doubt that Massalia too would have either been overcome by its neighbours or would have resorted to bending the knee to another in order to remain sovereign in some fashion.

And what of Italia? When the great exodos came from over the sea, in their multitudes, the cities of Italia were potent but divided, narrowly treading the line between opulence and decadence. The Hellenic refugees renewed and repurposed the Italiotes; without the refugees from Athenai there would have been no Megathenai, without Megathenai who would have brought the Italiotes together? In the time of Empedokles and Perikles the Italiotes were still regularly threatened by many of the other peoples of Hesperia, and it is likely that one among those primitive peoples would have eventually emerged supreme, with the Italiotes presenting a desirable and divided target for conquest. Without its increased population and strength would Syrakousai ever have founded Issa, and would Issa have had the strength to expand as it did into Illyria? Without Xerxes and his conquest of Hellas there would have been no such influx, no such conquests, no such bulwarks against various other peoples. What would have become of the Hellenes? At the time of Darieos and Xerxes they were a people on the cusp of greatness but short of achieving it. I wager that they would have contented themselves to their same insular squabbling, their small vision of the world. Indeed, it is not just their western colonies that were affected by Xerxes, he expanded the horizons of all Hellenes, making them party to and part of a far larger world. The same will be true for Amorika in these troubled times, no matter the forces ranged against us we will ultimately emerge stronger and more powerful than ever before. We are heir to the martial tradition of the Keltui, and draw our refinement and civilization from multiple sources to create a distilled and cohesive whole. We will overcome the Ettelingi and be the stronger for it.

INSPIRATION BY DUBA BEN ASHREAMEN
EXTRAORDINARY IDEAS
​

Not all ideas are the seeds of great things, but we know of many extraordinary people who had an idea unique to themselves, and who then did extraordinary deeds. If the idea comes from the outside in, was it one inherently fated to be successful, given the huge numbers of unsuccessful ideas people have? If the idea comes from within, what is it that tells people that their idea is a good one, since this instinct applies equally to extraordinary deeds and failures? Are these people made of different stuff, or are they and history’s big failures made of the same kind? Can we even conclude that all extraordinary, successful ideas are of the same kind? Take ‘Alika, the man who took the West Qanani from their homeland of ‘Awakim to the Whale Coast. Was his idea, was his fundamental being, of the same kind as Ashtazira who first sailed the ocean between Idonia and the lands of the Emerald Forest? Or of Bida, who first contacted the West Qanani by navigating around the Emerald Forest? Was it the same kind as Bobal of Tinjha’s abortive attempt to reach India? Are these ideas and these people, concerned as they are with discovery of new lands, from the same source as ideas concerning politics and warfare? Was ‘Alika a man of the same firmament and design as Ajhnimitr of India?

My instinct is to say no, these different ideas are not from the same source, these men are not of the same design. The unique quality of these ideas is derived from the unique quality of the person that generates them. For a start, how many have an extraordinary idea but never act upon it? Part of the uniqueness of the extraordinary individual is the commitment to achieving the idea in a practical way in any fashion whatsoever. Then again, there are those ideas that only a particular person could have generated, and I would rather believe the human body and mind to be an active creator rather than a passive producer, specifically that the act of thought can and will produce unique and particular thoughts. In other words, I do not believe the idea was born with us, I believe the idea is born by us. Rather than coming from a stream, where all the ideas swim around until fished out, ideas are forged from raw materials. Thus ‘Alika created the idea, and the execution, of the migration across the western Ocean to the Whale Coast. Bobal was likewise responsible for his idea, its execution, and ultimately its failure. His idea was not predetermined or fated to result in death and disaster, this was caused specifically by his lack of forethought and his decisions on the journey. We are not destined to failure, we create failure by making poor decisions, or executing actions in an ineffective manner. We are not passive receptacles of divine inspiration, we honour our divine creators by the creations of our own, along with choosing to do the right thing.
​

TELEO or AKUNAVAM: END OF CHAPTER 5

 

[Daeres]

As the OTL Greeks said, moderation in all things: cinnamon is fine as long as you don't overuse it.



Personally I chuckled at "Basileus Wilhelm." Does this indicate that in the process of Juropan ethnogenesis, "Goths" becomes an ethnicity clearly marked out from the incipient Germanic-Celtic hodgepodge forming now (in the main timeline's progress)? Or is there a wider "German" identity?

(Moesia isn't that odd geographically, at least. It's where the Visigoths OTL first sallied into the Roman Empire, after all).

Goths, in the timeline, are understood to be related more closely to other Germanic speakers than to anyone else, but are still considered distinct. As different as Finns and Magyars in OTL perhaps? On the other hand, they are not the only Germanic speaking people who will eventually be drawn down into the Balkans.

 

[Deleted member 97083]

It seems to me, albeit as a humble outsider who has no relation to the Hellenes or their culture, that without the invasion of the Persians their western colonies and kingdoms would not have achieved such heights as they did. Without the influx of Hellenes into Syrakousai, albeit driven by the existing power of the greatest city of the Hellenic world, could Syrakousai have pushed the Qartadastim out of Sikelia altogether? I would wager not. Given the latter strength of that mighty nation, before its sundering, I would have said that eventually the Hellenes would have been conquered by the might of Qarthadast, or at best held the Qartadastim at bay in an uneasy stalemate that slowly ground down Hellenic sovereignty over their colonies on the island. Perhaps they would have had to subject themselves to dominion of another great power in their desperation to fend off their ancient rivals. We can express similar statements over the power of Massalia, which conquered and settled western Liguria, along with fortifying their borders and planting military colonies all across their territory. Their sea power was always strong, but this is not a good way of guarding a continental interior from a multitude of foes. Their wider territorial claims were only possible because of the influx of fellow Hellenes into the city, allowing for occupation of the surrounding territories, and this greater power also gave them a stronger hand in dealing with their immediate neighbours. I see no reason to doubt that Massalia too would have either been overcome by its neighbours or would have resorted to bending the knee to another in order to remain sovereign in some fashion.

And what of Italia? When the great exodos came from over the sea, in their multitudes, the cities of Italia were potent but divided, narrowly treading the line between opulence and decadence. The Hellenic refugees renewed and repurposed the Italiotes; without the refugees from Athenai there would have been no Megathenai, without Megathenai who would have brought the Italiotes together? In the time of Empedokles and Perikles the Italiotes were still regularly threatened by many of the other peoples of Hesperia, and it is likely that one among those primitive peoples would have eventually emerged supreme, with the Italiotes presenting a desirable and divided target for conquest. Without its increased population and strength would Syrakousai ever have founded Issa, and would Issa have had the strength to expand as it did into Illyria? Without Xerxes and his conquest of Hellas there would have been no such influx, no such conquests, no such bulwarks against various other peoples. What would have become of the Hellenes? At the time of Darieos and Xerxes they were a people on the cusp of greatness but short of achieving it. I wager that they would have contented themselves to their same insular squabbling, their small vision of the world. Indeed, it is not just their western colonies that were affected by Xerxes, he expanded the horizons of all Hellenes, making them party to and part of a far larger world. The same will be true for Amorika in these troubled times, no matter the forces ranged against us we will ultimately emerge stronger and more powerful than ever before. We are heir to the martial tradition of the Keltui, and draw our refinement and civilization from multiple sources to create a distilled and cohesive whole. We will overcome the Ettelingi and be the stronger for it.

Great update. Is Italia ITTL what we know as southern Italy, or the whole of Italy? Was it conquered by the Rasnatic Empire?

 

[Daeres]

Great update. Is Italia ITTL what we know as southern Italy, or the whole of Italy? Was it conquered by the Rasnatic Empire?

Italia's exact use ITTL varies but always focuses on what we'd call Southern Italy. At times it encompasses all of Hellenic Italy, and/or Sicily, but it never comes to refer to the entire peninsula, instead Hesperia and variants thereof becomes preferred by the Hellenic-influenced world.

Italia ITTL was conquered by the Etruscans, in the throes of the expansionist Third Golden Generation, the final dynasty of the Rasnatic Empire. This was their apogee, but also shortly before their collapse; the moment they were able to organise, the Italiotes organised an enormous revolt, which coincided with an Etruscan civil war and was then followed by the Arverni/Sequani invasion. The wealth that attracted the Etruscan conquest is also what made the Italiotes capable of causing the Etruscans a serious headache trying to keep them down, not to mention the fact that Italia ITTL has more settlements, a higher population, and a greater territory than by this point OTL.

 

[Indicus]

India conquering Persia is literally awesome.

the direction to this path came directly from Indra

Indra worship was largely in decline by the POD. It even seems to have been in decline in the time of the Buddha. Perhaps you can use Shiva as an imperial god, but Indra was a minor, hedonistic god at this point.

 

[Practical Lobster]

India conquering Persia is literally awesome.



Indra worship was largely in decline by the POD. It even seems to have been in decline in the time of the Buddha. Perhaps you can use Shiva as an imperial god, but Indra was a minor, hedonistic god at this point.

In his defense we don't know what weird thing happened to Indian religion between the PoD and the time of that "writing." I'll admit it's unlikely, but maybe Indra saw a resurgence? Didn't Indra undergo a brief period reimagining in Indian Buddhist thought where he became less flawed?

Alternatively maybe this is Indra as an aspect of Shiva?

 

[Indicus]

In his defense we don't know what weird thing happened to Indian religion between the PoD and the time of that "writing." I'll admit it's unlikely, but maybe Indra saw a resurgence? Didn't Indra undergo a brief period reimagining in Indian Buddhist thought where he became less flawed?

If my memory serves right, Indra was a title used by the king of the gods in some form of Buddhism. So, an entirely different use of the word "Indra".

Alternatively maybe this is Indra as an aspect of Shiva?

That's a possibility, that an epithet became the new name of Shiva. In fact, Shiva was originally named "Rudra", and Shiva was one of his epithets. Though, there is a mention of a "Rudra" in the post, so I guess not.

 

[Daeres]

This is the Buddhist Indra that's being referenced in that post by the way, or more specifically a non-Buddhist reinterpretation of Buddhist Indra. Uppali is not personally a Buddhist but there are Buddhist members of his family, and we are now entering the Syncretic Buddhism zone *spooky music*, whereby this timeline's version of reintegrating Buddhism with wider Indic thought begins in earnest. I don't see anything in the timeline that would have seriously impacted the rise of Rudra-Shiva, and indeed I have Agnimitra and his father as Rudra devouts, the fact that it's Indra rather than Rudra credited with the source of inspiration is a deliberate philosophical position of Uppali, for whom the Buddhist Indra is something akin to a tutelary deity with a specific responsibility for creative thought, but also an ideal representing inspiration itself.

There are some parallels here with the differences between OTL Greek civic religion, Greek household religion, and Greek philosophical schools. Aphrodite as worshipped in political festivals or in the home does not always seem to have much to do with the several philosophers who discuss 'Cosmic Aphrodite', effectively invoking the name as a reference to a universal attracting force (this is an interpretation of Aphrodite that is only going to become more prominent ITTL by the way), where the cultural associations and conceptual nature of the deity are repurposed for the intention of philosophical discussion. Indra is similar here for Uppali, but he is also drawing on a wider association of 'Buddhist deities' with variations upon Enlightenment and sudden realisations. That association, demonstrating a wider comfort with drawing upon Buddhist thought in non-Buddhist spirituality, makes Uppali part of a growing syncretic bridge between Buddhism and the other practices of India.

 

[Deleted member 97083]

Do you think you'll make a map of the the Gothics, Rasnatics, etc. any time soon, or would it spoil too many upcoming events?

 

[Daeres]

Do you think you'll make a map of the the Gothics, Rasnatics, etc. any time soon, or would it spoil too many upcoming events?

One problem with my love of jumping around in time is that it makes doing singular definitive maps difficult, and in some cases it would spoil things. On the other hand I'm also a bit of a perfectionist with my own maps. However, as with the earlier two maps i posted there are some maps i have for key moments, and I'd like to make some detail maps for the Rasna, Achaemenids, Amavadatids at least.

 

[Daeres]

Μηδίζω! THE WORLD OF ACHAEMENID HELLAS
CHAPTER 5: SPOROS or CIHYA
EPILOGOS

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The interview begins now.

All of us ultimately originate from something, somewhere. I wonder what you come from, and where? I doubt you will answer me on these matters, and I wouldn’t compel you, even if it were in my power to do so. Well, you did say this was an interview, so I shall talk about mine instead, if that’s alright with you. If I were to be simple about it, I would say that I was Artavazda the son of Pharnaka, from the land of Parsa. But what is Parsa, where do we come from? There are stories a-plenty to answer such queries, hundreds of them I should expect. The stories that a high-born boy of Parsa can expect to hear from his parents and minders, the genealogies repeated as rote and drone by magi, academics and wise men in courtly settings, the long tales told by tribesmen around the fire at night. I’ve often felt that all of these sorts of stories, comforting though they are, lacked a certain something. A ring of truth, you might say. Truth and trustworthiness are a watchword of my people, and I have always valued the specific and reliable truth most of all. The older I got, the more questions I wanted to answer. You might laugh at this but it was actually my time spent amount the Yauna that amplified this instinct I already possessed. I spent a long time dealing with them, when you stop to think about it. At first I was a young man fighting them in battle, then I was an old man ruling over them in the name of the king. I spent more time in Yauna, in the end, than in Parsa, all things considered.
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They were so very different from us. Divided, poor, narrow-minded, crude at times, prone to extremes of emotion. I thought of them as barbarians for quite some time, and I’m still not sure that I was wrong. But after getting to know them as intimately as I have done, I began to wonder; are they really so different to us? A certain strain of bravery, a desire for knowledge, a hunger for new horizons, an understanding of the beauty and power of horses (even though so little of the Yauna lands are suitable for horse-rearing), a genuine piety masked by their taste for the gaudy. And then there was the matter of language. All tongues come from the first man and the first woman, that is for certain. But not all modes of speech are equally similar to one another. The speech of Baktrish is nearly the same as my own, the speech of Babilu or Mudraya not at all. And I began to notice certain correspondences between certain Yauna words and words spoken in Parsa, and not in words that could be explained as learned borrowings from our own speech but commonly used ones that, so far as I could tell, had been spoken in Yauna for many centuries. Would that make Yauna and Parsa distant cousins, highly estranged brothers?​

Rather than excite me, this troubled me. In particular, it troubled me because of what I did to Sparta. When I razed the capital of the Spartans to the ground, displaced the people of that land, was I destroying a culture, a people, that were cousins to my own? Would the hundred-times grandfather of myself and the Spartan king once have sat at the same table? And then again, it is a cruel thing to destroy a people, to kill them, destroy their places, chase them from their sanctuaries, put them to flight, sweep the memory of them from the land. The notion of doing something like that was far easier when I considered the Spartans, Yauna in general, to be barbarians, and to have no relationship to myself, to Parsa, except as subjects. The Spartans were a vicious people to my eyes, and I don’t feel differently about that now than I did all those years ago, but the truth is that it was still a cruel action, and it was cruel regardless of whether the Yauna and Parsa are of a kin to one another. It just makes the conclusion harder to escape, harder to bear.​

When governing, when you are responsible for thousands of lives, there is not any time to think about these things. And yet I did. I suspect that the strain hastened the end. I could not turn away, could not turn off that instinct to understand the interconnection of things, their origins, and the moral conclusions that resulted. But it also made me curious, and once the fire of youth dimmed within me I found myself begrudgingly curious about peoples beside my own, including the Yauna, who I had once considered almost beneath the notice of Parsa altogether except as a source of troublemakers. I do not consider that to have been a waste of time. I do regret that it took me that long to apply a desire for truth to the rest of the world. To those with great purpose, those who seek to make peace on this earth, or even those who simply seek to control the world, the other peoples of the world beyond their own may seem like a hindrance, or cattle, but with all that I have experienced I reject that entirely. We all have shared origins, and we can also share our destinations too. The history that brings the Yauna and Parsa closer than they are to many other peoples, that knowledge remains unknown to me. But it is a mystery worth unraveling, and a tale worth telling. I hope that someone uncovers the answer to these questions some day. I would hope that would lead to both cultures valuing the other, not only as brothers but in their own right. Parsa has much to learn from Perikles, and Hellas much to learn from Xsharyarsha. One day, I hope, they will be ready to understand this, to really acknowledge what it means for all humankind to come from the same origins.​

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The interview is over.​

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