¡Communism!

[The Space Viking]

There's a post in this discussion talking about a fascist Germany w.o Nazism.

Someone brought this up:

Yes, that is a possibility. More Mussolini-stye than Hitler, though. Personally I have always thought that without Adolf communism would of prevailed in Deutschland, but I don't know a whole lot about the political situation of the time.

And then this:

Why on earth do people think Germany will go Communist

From 1920-1932 the Communists averaged 11.25% of the vote. They never even passed the 20% mark in a single election. By '32 the Nazis commanded an entire one-third of the electorate. The idea that a political movement that could barely capture one-tenth of the German electorate could take over is absolutely ludicrous.

Do people actually believe that the Nazis were the only thing stopping the Communists from taking over Germany? That is literally buying into Nazi propaganda.

What my question is, whether Communism would have prevailed in a Germany without Nazism or Fascism. Would the Junkers still be as influential? (I like them) Would they be allied with the USSR or not and be an individual state, or eventually become absorbed by the Red Giant?

Maybe a POD with a successful version of this:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Revolution_of_1918–19

 

[Wolfpaw]

What my question is, whether Communism would have prevailed in a Germany without Nazism or Fascism.

It would not have gone Communist for lack of fascist movements and the Nazi Party. Even at the height of their popularity in Germany (which was actually helped by the Nazis and fascists) Communists were loathed and feared by the vast majority of the populace. Without far-right paramilitary movements, Germany would have remained a weak but tenable democracy with the SPD and the Centre Party being the leading parties. The Communists would have remained the minority party they'd always been, though they'd certainly spike in popularity during the Great Depression, but not to the degree where they'd actually take over the government by either electoral or insurrectionist means.

Would the Junkers still be as influential?

No. They'd all be shot. They were landed aristocrats who held revoltingly disproportionate amounts of power in the military and in much of the government's administration, especially in the eastern parts of Germany. This is the exact class of people that Communists love(d) to execute and are/were absolutely determined to annihilate.

Would they be allied with the USSR or not and be an individual state, or eventually become absorbed by the Red Giant?

An alliance with the USSR would only serve to further alienate Germany from the rest of Europe. Relations will undoubtedly be cordial, but I very much doubt that a KPD that's actually in charge of Germany would march lock-step with the Kremlin; Germany's interests are far more important than listening to Stalin. And Germany will certainly not be absorbed by the USSR. The Germans would never sacrifice their sovereignty to some foreign power, especially not the Asiatic Bolshevist hordes. I'm not even going to bother commenting on the logistical or geopolitical impossibilities of such a union.

Maybe a POD with a successful version of this:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Revolution_of_1918%E2%80%9319

For this to even come anywhere near remotely close to succeeding you're going to need a Germany that's been much, much more devastated and destabilized by World War I. And even then I'd put my money on the German military and the various right-wing paramilitary groups over some makeshift Communist militias. Remember that a lot of the Communist revolutionaries were mostly disgruntled factory workers and middle-class people; the Freikorps were made up of demobilized soldiers fresh from the front with bounteous amounts of munitions at their disposal.

 

[The Space Viking]

For this to even come anywhere near remotely close to succeeding you're going to need a Germany that's been much, much more devastated and destabilized by World War I. And even then I'd put my money on the German military and the various right-wing paramilitary groups over some makeshift Communist militias. Remember that a lot of the Communist revolutionaries were mostly disgruntled factory workers and middle-class people; the Freikorps were made up of demobilized soldiers fresh from the front with bounteous amounts of munitions at their disposal.

So post-war Germany was taken over by ex-military, and since Communism is popular among factory-workers and middle-class people, it wouldn't be accepted by the people in control.

What about a Socialist Military government created and run by the Freikorps, that might be interesting if its even plausible. I just got curious from the previous thread regarding a different type of government taking over post-war Germany.

 

[Wolfpaw]

What about a Socialist Military government created and run by the Freikorps, that might be interesting if its even plausible. I just got curious from the previous thread regarding a different type of government taking over post-war Germany.

The military disliked socialism only a little less than they hated fascism. Sorry, but a military authoritarian state is going to be conservative and leave the economy more or less in the hands of pre-coup bureaucrats only they'll ensure that policy doesn't swing too far to the left.

 

[The Space Viking]

The military disliked socialism only a little less than they hated fascism. Sorry, but a military authoritarian state is going to be conservative and leave the economy more or less in the hands of pre-coup bureaucrats only they'll ensure that policy doesn't swing too far to the left.

I'm guessing the only way to remove the ex-military from the situation is to have an even more bloodier WWI, like you said before, diminishing their numbers so they aren't as powerful.

Or, what if they do take over, have an authoritarian government, and heavily Industrialize. Would that enable more lower-class people/factory workers to revolt in the future? They could still take Czechoslovakia maybe (IIRC it was a great industrial addition to Nazi Germany).

 

[Readman]

I would have to agree Germany would have to have had an even worse WW1, and the German Revolution was an entirely different animal than the Bolshevik Revolution. In OTL Hitler bluffed his way into Czechoslovakia(seriously, most of the High Command were shitting their collective pants) , Sudentland et al, if Germany did in this ATL make a move it would get smacked down. It is nontheless an interesting scenario but again it would require a significant POD.

 

[Wolfpaw]

Or, what if they do take over, have an authoritarian government, and heavily Industrialize.

Well, Germany was already pretty industrialized, either the first or second most industrialized in Europe (Britain may have been more so, I can't recall), so Stalinist-style industrialization isn't going to happen.

Again, the military is going to leave the economy in the hands of the people who were in charge prior to the fascists (attempted) takeover. The Reichswehr knew that it wasn't qualified to make economic decisions, nor did it want that responsibility. I preferred to stick to running the military and making sure the political scene didn't go haywire.

Would that enable more lower-class people/factory workers to revolt in the future? They could still take Czechoslovakia maybe (IIRC it was a great industrial addition to Nazi Germany).

I don't really see why they would revolt even if there was some sort of (completely unnecessary) crack-industrialization. The military isn't going to be dictatorial, it's going to be authoritarian. If you're a political subversive (i.e. a Communist or a fascist or a general rabble-rouser), then you're screwed. Otherwise things probably won't be so bad. Not great, but not horrible.

And any sort of worker's revolt is going to be nipped in the bud by the military. If it gets to the point of armed insurrection, the revolutionaries are screwed since ideas don't stop tank shells, shore bombardment, or aircraft.

Like Readman said, the Reischwehr is 100% not going to do anything about Czechoslovakia. That was entirely Hitler's gambit and the military was planning to launch a coup if he made the insane decision to invade, which would have fucked both the Reichswehr and Germany in general.

 

[mowque]

iCommunism sounds like some type of evil Apple product.

 

[RGB]

iCommunism sounds like some type of evil Apple product.

You mean there's non-evil Apple products?

I think Evil and Apple go hand in hand, like Stalin and Moustache.

 

[The Space Viking]

You mean there's non-evil Apple products?

I think Evil and Apple go hand in hand, like Stalin and Moustache.

Lol, maybe its an app meant to brainwash the youth?

As to the topic, I guess its just not meant to be for communism to take Germany post 1900. It was fun trying though

 

[The Dude]

No, it's Linux that's communist, not apple. Silly newbs.

 

[Wolfpaw]

As to the topic, I guess its just not meant to be for communism to take Germany post 1900. It was fun trying though

Don't despair, my good man (or woman)! Remember that we've given you a POD that you could work with. A Germany far more devastated by the Great War is a perfect scenario for a Red revolution to crop up.

And let's not forget that if a center- to far-left socialist regime takes power after such a scarring conflict, the Commies might be in the position to pull a Jacobin

 

[The Space Viking]

Don't despair, my good man (or woman)! Remember that we've given you a POD that you could work with. A Germany far more devastated by the Great War is a perfect scenario for a Red revolution to crop up.

And let's not forget that if a center- to far-left socialist regime takes power after such a scarring scenario, the Commies might be in the position to pull a Jacobin

Thanks for everyone's contribution to the thread. I'll take that POD and save it for when/if I get enough research together to start a TL. Btw I'm a dude

 

[MercZ]

There was a bit here on AH called "Wir Sind Spartakus" based on a PoD on the German November Revolution where the Sparts came out on top. It might be useful to take a look at it if you want to get an idea of direction.

 

[Readman]

As to the topic, I guess its just not meant to be for communism to take Germany post 1900. It was fun trying though

East Germany 1946-89 ring a bell?

( I know what you mean though, just joking )

 

[Wolfpaw]

East Germany 1946-89 ring a bell?

( I know what you mean though, just joking )