Did japan have a choice?

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Kiritsugu

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Did japan really act like the aggressor in ww2 with attacking pearl harbour? Wasnt it like the USA builded up airforce and even draw plans of leading war vs japan, and attack plans long before pearl harbour? So if japan would have just continued its war with china, dont you think that the USA would have striked first, once they got enough airforce close to help china?

Like today france and other nations are just attacking lybia or how it is called, without even declareing war.. i think that japan feared that america will just intervene in the chinese war. (And the oil thing)
 
Japan was never agressor. Those Chinese were throwing themselves onto innocent Japanese bayonets for many years just to make Japan look bad.
 
While Japan certainly felt threatened by the US, it was for reasons entirely of their own creations. The US had been steadily ratcheting up sanctions on Japan for its unprovoked, brutal invasion of China. As a result, Japan was rapidly running out of a lot of strategic materials (oil, rubber, various metals, etc.) that they needed to continue that conflict. They had a choice of withdrawing from China, or trying to seize the necessary materials to fuel their war machine from the European colonies that had been handily stripped of their defenses by the war in Europe. They knew that the US would join the war if they attacked the European colonies in SE Asia (I believe there had been verbal promises from FDR to Churchill to that effect). So they chose to strike first. They were are much the aggressor as Germany, choosing to loot other countries to sustain an unsustainable war machine of their creation.
 
Sorry, you were a bit too stupid. A little less stupid and you would have fooled me with your trolling, OP.

In case you're actually serious: Yes. They had a choice.


Edit: Your other thread was far better (Nazi-Polish alliance against Russia?).
 
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If you mean 'could they have continued their war with China without attacking the US due to the oil embargo', then no, they had no choice.

However, if you mean 'did they have a choice never to attack China in the first place', then yes, of course they did.
 
Did japan really act like the aggressor in ww2 with attacking pearl harbour? Wasnt it like the USA builded up airforce and even draw plans of leading war vs japan, and attack plans long before pearl harbour? So if japan would have just continued its war with china, dont you think that the USA would have striked first, once they got enough airforce close to help china?

Like today france and other nations are just attacking lybia or how it is called, without even declareing war.. i think that japan feared that america will just intervene in the chinese war. (And the oil thing)


Thank you. I've been meaning to contribute with an entry for the Flamebait thread titles' thread.

I don't know if you were trolling but it's good stuff. :p
 
without pearl the US would never have been directly involved with Japan, despite the atrocities. Roosevelt had a hard enough time convincing the public that fighting Germany was necessary. The embargo was an effective means of forcing American policy onto Japan without intervening in their war directly. While Lend-Lease had only been in effect since March '41 it's unlikely that this was more than a gradual shift to active participation, the Japanese strike at Pearl took public opinion out of the equation for war.

So really, the Japanese military may have been worried about American action but were more worried about letting the embargo slowly drain away their strength. Without a decisive battle in the pacific the Japanese war machine would have quickly ground to a halt and they would have been left with a stalemate in China they would certainly have lost.
 

amphibulous

Banned
Did japan really act like the aggressor in ww2 with attacking pearl harbour? Wasnt it like the USA builded up airforce and even draw plans of leading war vs japan, and attack plans long before pearl harbour? So if japan would have just continued its war with china, dont you think that the USA would have striked first, once they got enough airforce close to help china?

Like today france and other nations are just attacking lybia or how it is called, without even declareing war.. i think that japan feared that america will just intervene in the chinese war.

So you are saying that fear that US would interfere with Japan's nasty rape-and-torture habit left Japan "no choice" but to go to war...??? Man, those Japanese are sure serious about their rape!

Also: no, that the US would attack was not a realistic fear. The IJA and IJN were run by morons. See https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=263767

(And the oil thing)

Japan has a right not to sell game consoles and cameras to regimes it dislikes; the US has the same right with its products. And expecting the US to like you after you start with the raping and torturing - and join the Axis Pact! - is more than a little silly.

If Japan had possessed the sense to keep its imperialism within "decent" limits and not ally with Germany, then it would probably have been able to do whatever it reasonably liked - American anti-war sentiment was so strong that it tool literally sub-human behaviour to get support for even containing Japan with economic measures:

http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/nanking.htm

The elimination of the Chinese POWs began after they were transported by trucks to remote locations on the outskirts of Nanking. As soon as they were assembled, the savagery began, with young Japanese soldiers encouraged by their superiors to inflict maximum pain and suffering upon individual POWs as a way of toughening themselves up for future battles, and also to eradicate any civilized notions of mercy. Filmed footage and still photographs taken by the Japanese themselves document the brutality. Smiling soldiers can be seen conducting bayonet practice on live prisoners, decapitating them and displaying severed heads as souvenirs, and proudly standing among mutilated corpses. Some of the Chinese POWs were simply mowed down by machine-gun fire while others were tied-up, soaked with gasoline and burned alive.

After the destruction of the POWs, the soldiers turned their attention to the women of Nanking and an outright animalistic hunt ensued. Old women over the age of 70 as well as little girls under the age of 8 were dragged off to be sexually abused. More than 20,000 females (with some estimates as high as 80,000) were gang-raped by Japanese soldiers, then stabbed to death with bayonets or shot so they could never bear witness.

Pregnant women were not spared. In several instances, they were raped, then had their bellies slit open and the fetuses torn out. Sometimes, after storming into a house and encountering a whole family, the Japanese forced Chinese men to rape their own daughters, sons to rape their mothers, and brothers their sisters, while the rest of the family was made to watch.

Throughout the city of Nanking, random acts of murder occurred as soldiers frequently fired their rifles into panicked crowds of civilians, killing indiscriminately. Other soldiers killed shopkeepers, looted their stores, then set the buildings on fire after locking people of all ages inside. They took pleasure in the extraordinary suffering that ensued as the people desperately tried to escape the flames by climbing onto rooftops or leaping down onto the street.

The incredible carnage - citywide burnings, stabbings, drownings, strangulations, rapes, thefts, and massive property destruction - continued unabated for about six weeks, from mid-December 1937 through the beginning of February 1938. Young or old, male or female, anyone could be shot on a whim by any Japanese soldier for any reason. Corpses could be seen everywhere throughout the city. The streets of Nanking were said to literally have run red with blood.

Those who were not killed on the spot were taken to the outskirts of the city and forced to dig their own graves, large rectangular pits that would be filled with decapitated corpses resulting from killing contests the Japanese held among themselves. Other times, the Japanese forced the Chinese to bury each other alive in the dirt.

After this period of unprecedented violence, the Japanese eased off somewhat and settled in for the duration of the war. To pacify the population during the long occupation, highly addictive narcotics, including opium and heroin, were distributed by Japanese soldiers to the people of Nanking, regardless of age. An estimated 50,000 persons became addicted to heroin while many others lost themselves in the city's opium dens.

In addition, the notorious Comfort Women system was introduced which forced young Chinese women to become slave-prostitutes, existing solely for the sexual pleasure of Japanese soldiers.

News reports of the happenings in Nanking appeared in the official Japanese press and also in the West, as page-one reports in newspapers such as the New York Times. Japanese news reports reflected the militaristic mood of the country in which any victory by the Imperial Army resulting in further expansion of the Japanese empire was celebrated. Eyewitness reports by Japanese military correspondents concerning the sufferings of the people of Nanking also appeared. They reflected a mentality in which the brutal dominance of subjugated or so-called inferior peoples was considered just. Incredibly, one paper, the Japan Advertiser, actually published a running count of the heads severed by two officers involved in a decapitation contest, as if it was some kind of a sporting match.

In the United States, reports published in the New York Times, Reader's Digest and Time Magazine, were greeted with skepticism from the American public. The stories smuggled out of Nanking seemed almost too fantastic to be believed.

Overall, most Americans had only a passing knowledge or little interest in Asia [before Japanese genius for negative public relations changed their minds].
 

amphibulous

Banned
without pearl the US would never have been directly involved with Japan, despite the atrocities. Roosevelt had a hard enough time convincing the public that fighting Germany was necessary.

In that he didn't! The USA didn't go to war with Hitler - he declared war on the USA.
 
In that he didn't! The USA didn't go to war with Hitler - he declared war on the USA.

Before that but after lend-lease the American public was, iirc, over 2 thirds against war with Germany.

Before the Axis declarations, there wasn't much of a direct cause for war in the States
 

Kiritsugu

Banned
I wonder where i ever denied japan was the aggressor in the sino japanese war.
Nor i have asked if japan had a choice attacking china, its all about if the US would have declared war vs japan, if it would have NEVER joined the axis, after germany had fallen.
 
without pearl the US would never have been directly involved with Japan, despite the atrocities. Roosevelt had a hard enough time convincing the public that fighting Germany was necessary.
Um, the Philippines was a US territory at the time, so the Japanese only had to touch it and the US was on them.
 

CalBear

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Did japan really act like the aggressor in ww2 with attacking pearl harbour? Wasnt it like the USA builded up airforce and even draw plans of leading war vs japan, and attack plans long before pearl harbour? So if japan would have just continued its war with china, dont you think that the USA would have striked first, once they got enough airforce close to help china?

Like today france and other nations are just attacking lybia or how it is called, without even declareing war.. i think that japan feared that america will just intervene in the chinese war. (And the oil thing)


Short answer: Yes

Longer answer: Japan was perhaps even more of an aggressor state than the Reich (which is quite the achievement). Besides the multiple totally optional wars against China, Toyko grabbed French Indochina the second the French were unable to defend it, planned, in detail, a war of naked aggression against the Dutch and the British (a nation that had been Japan's closest ally two decades earlier), and quite literally attacked the United States within days of having sufficient carrier assets to enable their attack plan to work.

The ability to interfere in China by the U.S. was remarkably limited. The technology of 1941 meant that the U.S. could only strike at Japan via naval air or surface assets, there were no aircraft that could strike Japan from the Continental U.S. or Hawaii until the introduction of the B-36, an aircraft that was not even on the drawing board when the Japanese military decided on attacking the U.S. The Japanese attacked the U.S. during a brief window when the military leadership thought it had the advantage.

The chances of the United States going to war over China were effectively zero, and Tokyo knew it.
 
I wonder where i ever denied japan was the aggressor in the sino japanese war.
Nor i have asked if japan had a choice attacking china, its all about if the US would have declared war vs japan, if it would have NEVER joined the axis, after germany had fallen.
Hopefully the US would have gone and put a stop to Japan's ruthless and bloodthirsty rampage across Asia anyways.
 
Why couldn't they just attack Malaya for the rubber and Borneo for the oil?

Whatever verbal promises FDR may or may not have made, is there any real likelihood that Congress would declare war over either place?
 
There were Phillipines in between. The islands were quickly becoming an impregnable fortress and if Japan eventually found herself in situation that US were providing the British and the Dutch with help, they wouldn't be able to do anything about it. Beides PI lay astride of the main route to the Southern Resource Area and US would find it very easy to cut off the Japanese off their new conquests if it became embroiled in war at a later date, while Japanese would be able to do squat about it. They decided to solve this problem in Alexander The Great fashion and preempt US involvement.
 
Did japan really act like the aggressor in ww2 with attacking pearl harbour? Wasnt it like the USA builded up airforce and even draw plans of leading war vs japan, and attack plans long before pearl harbour? So if japan would have just continued its war with china, dont you think that the USA would have striked first, once they got enough airforce close to help china?

Like today france and other nations are just attacking lybia or how it is called, without even declareing war.. i think that japan feared that america will just intervene in the chinese war. (And the oil thing)

You're a Japanese national, aren't you?
 
I wonder where i ever denied japan was the aggressor in the sino japanese war.
Nor i have asked if japan had a choice attacking china, its all about if the US would have declared war vs japan, if it would have NEVER joined the axis, after germany had fallen.
Basically you're asking this: Would the USA have declared war on Japan if they weren't Germany's ally?

Answer: Yes they would have, because Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, so of course the USA would be at war with them. Whether or not Japan was Germany's ally has nothing to do with it.

YLi said:
You're a Japanese national, aren't you?
You know, I don't think we've had one of those here before.
 
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